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InvisibleMoonshoe
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The most important struggle in history
    #14439382 - 05/12/11 10:00 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Hello Friends.

We live in an incredibly beautiful world. Sadly, our human patterns of production, consumption and transportation have developed in a way that has become acutely ecocidal, meaning that we are rapidly undermining the ecological life support systems of the planet Earth, upon which we and all other life forms depend for our very survival.

This has led to a situation called the global ecological crisis. This crisis is complex, but can be thought of as having four major facets: climate change, biodiversity loss, waste and pollution and water scarcity.

All of these facets are interconnected. Climate change (global warming) is the result of waste and pollution (human emissions of greenhouse gases as air pollution) which in turn leads to acute biodiversity loss (mass extinctions such as those that result from coral bleaching as ocean temperatures rise).

Perhaps the most alarming aspect is biodiversity loss. According to the Living Planet Index, Earth's living systems declined by 37% in only 30 years, between 1970 and 2000, and the rate of degradation has accelerated. In functional terms, this means that our planet is already 'half dead'.

This is confirmed by researcher E.O Wilson, who  “has estimated that up to half of all species… face a threat of extinction during the twenty-first century".

Essentially, the biological world is experiencing a wave of mass extinctions that is entirely anthropomorphic (caused by humans). At the same time, the planet is becoming drastically less livable for humanity. As global warming melts the icecaps and glacier sheets, billions of people will lose access to fresh water (as they rely on glacier melt to feed the rivers from which they draw drinking water) and tens or hundreds of millions will be displaced as coastal cities are submerged by rising sea levels.

As the seas rise they will also saturate many underground aquifers (vast reservoirs of fresh water) thereby salinizing them and making them unsuitable for human drinking.

Fertile crops will be destroyed by droughts, and lakes will decline and evaporate.

I am of the opinion that this issue, the issue of the global ecological crisis, is the single greatest challenge ever to face human kind. The stakes are much greater than mere human extinction. What we are already witnessing is the rapid extinction of life on earth as we know it.

I do not say these things to depress or discourage. Rather, I want to draw your attention to the fact that we , those of us alive today, are living in the most important period of human history, and it is up to us to do all we can to protect and restore this miraculous world that we call home.

This will require profound changes in all of our life styles. We will need to make sacrifices, such as giving up most or all of our meat consumption (which is environmentally destructive) , change our transportation habits (personal vehicles are unsustainable) and reduce our consumption and waste production across the board.

But personal lifestyle changes will not be enough. We also need to join, support and participate in those organizations which are already fighting this battle, such as Greenpeace and the world wildlife fund. I highly recommend making a small donation and joining these organizations. It feels good, and it puts you in contact with other people who are making a difference.

Perhaps the easiest thing you can do to make a difference is visit this site and click the green button to fund rainforest conservation. It costs you nothing. http://www.therainforestsite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=4

We should also consider more radical actions. I personally commend and support those people who are risking their freedoms to fight the most important war in history, the war against global ecocide.

Sometimes the necessary actions are illegal. But those of us here who use drugs are familiar with the need to break laws in order to be free and do what is right.

My intention with this post is simply to share what is my central concern, and to hopefully inspire some of you to examine what you can do, as individuals and as groups, to make a difference in this struggle.

The Earth is our mother, symbolically, our home, literally, and our spiritual heart. It has given us everything we have ever had, and now is our chance to give something back.

The scale of the problem can seem overwhelming, but once the first step, however small, is taken, momentum builds. Nothing is more depressing and disheartening than inaction.

Even if we lose the battle for mother earth, let us not go down without a fight.

Thank you for your attention.

Peace.



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Everything I post is fiction.


Edited by Moonshoe (05/12/11 11:05 AM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe] * 1
    #14439868 - 05/12/11 12:02 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Even if we lose the battle for mother earth



What does that even mean? The earth cannot be damaged per se.

We are doing what every other species does - which is to consume as much resources as possible. (See: cane toads)

Quote:

At the same time, the planet is becoming drastically less livable for humanity.



Must I post yet another population growth chart?


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14440578 - 05/12/11 02:57 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"What does that even mean? The earth cannot be damaged per se."

The battle for mother Earth means the struggle to protect Earth as a living planet, to protect and restore its ecosystems, and to maintain it as a planet capable of sustaining abundant and flourishing life.

What do you mean when you say that the earth cannot be damaged? The Earth as a living system can and is being damaged, profoundly.

"We are doing what every other species does - which is to consume as much resources as possible. (See: cane toads)"

Not all species consume as much resources as possible. Many (most?) consume only what they need to survive, and no more. And if we follow the model of species who over-exploit the habitats they rely on, we will doom ourselves to extinction. Given that we have human intelligence and foresight, there can be no justification for following the path of the cane toad.

   
"Must I post yet another population growth chart?"

Not sure what your point is? Human population is exploding, and that is a major part of the problem. Certainly the fact that human numbers are increasing does not indicate that the livability of the earth is. All the ecological science indicates that the resources which we as a species rely upon (fresh water, fish, fertile soil) are becoming increasingly scarce.


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Everything I post is fiction.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14440630 - 05/12/11 03:15 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The Earth as a living system can and is being damaged, profoundly.



So the earth damages the earth when it destroys eco-systems vis-a-vis volcanoes and hurricanes and earthquakes? The earth is schizophrenic?

Quote:

Not all species consume as much resources as possible. Many (most?) consume only what they need to survive, and no more.



Really? Do you know anything at all about biology? What species limits its reproduction when surrounded by limited predators and nearly-unlimited resources?

Quote:

"Must I post yet another population growth chart?"
Not sure what your point is? Human population is exploding, and that is a major part of the problem




Too bad you didn't even read your own post. :rolleyes:

Quote:

The stakes are much greater than mere human extinction.




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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14440636 - 05/12/11 03:17 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

. But those of us here who use drugs are familiar with the need to break laws in order to be free and do what is right.




:wtf: Please show a correlation between drug use and morality/environmental awareness. Oh, that's right! You can't. America uses more drugs and more resourcs than any other nation.

Next... :rolleyes:


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Offlineauxiliary
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #14440699 - 05/12/11 03:39 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I hate the people that pretend there's nothing wrong with the way we're doing things.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: auxiliary] * 1
    #14440755 - 05/12/11 03:55 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Care to elaborate. Hard to discuss your emotional reactions.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14441046 - 05/12/11 05:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Hey OrgoneConclusion,

I will keep the conversation going :smile:

"So the earth damages the earth when it destroys eco-systems vis-a-vis volcanoes and hurricanes and earthquakes? The earth is schizophrenic?"

Earth as a living planet can be seperated from Earth as a geological entity if that clears things up. I am talking about Earth as a biosphere. Things like volcanoes can harm the biosphere, but the major threat to the biosphere right now is humanity and our activities.


"Really? Do you know anything at all about biology? What species limits its reproduction when surrounded by limited predators and nearly-unlimited resources?"

Well, we (humans) certainly should, if we want to keep our planet habitable. And we are the only species who consumes so much in excess of what we need to survive, with such destructive effects.

Sadly, the idea of "nearly-unlimited resources" is wishful thinking. We have finite resources, and they are rapidly running out.



"Too bad you didn't even read your own post.  "
(The stakes are much greater than mere human extinction)

In biology, population explosion precedes population collapse. The population first expands to the limits of its environment, then exhausts that environment, then collapses due to the destruction of the ecology on which that species depends. To say that our current high populations means we are safe from long or medium term extinction is short-sighted.


"Please show a correlation between drug use and morality/environmental awareness".

I wasn't trying to say there is a correlation between drug use and morality or environmental awareness. I was saying that some of the actions needed to save the world will be illegal, but because this site is dedicated to an illegal activity (drug use) I did not expect people to be overly put off by the legality issue.


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Everything I post is fiction.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe] * 1
    #14441057 - 05/12/11 05:05 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

And we are the only species who consumes so much in excess of what we need to survive, with such destructive effects.




How do you figure?  I dont think that is true at all.  Every species consumes and reproduces as much as it can.  I think singling humans out like you are shows a glaring lack of perspective.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14441092 - 05/12/11 05:14 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

"Really? Do you know anything at all about biology? What species limits its reproduction when surrounded by limited predators and nearly-unlimited resources?"

Well, we (humans) certainly should, if we want to keep our planet habitable. And we are the only species who consumes so much in excess of what we need to survive, with such destructive effects.






And you want me to change your ratin, by starting off dodging yet another straight-forward question? Out of millions of species can you not name one to back up your claim?

Not a fucking lecture. An answer. Seems you want to preach and not debate.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: DieCommie]
    #14441113 - 05/12/11 05:18 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Didn't see your reply there, but of course you will not get an answer as it blows his entire shtick.

If Green Peacers truly wanted to lessen the impact, they would off themselves and their children. Instead they reproduce and some burn hundreds of thousand of gallons of (non-ocean-damaging) fuel chasing whale boats and such.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: DieCommie]
    #14441205 - 05/12/11 05:38 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"How do you figure?  I dont think that is true at all.  Every species consumes and reproduces as much as it can.  I think singling humans out like you are shows a glaring lack of perspective."

Objectively the ecological footprint of humanity absolutely dwarfs that of any other species. Admittedly, that may be because of our technological mastery rather than any moral superiority on the part of animals, but the point is that our unprecedented technological power brings with it an unprecedented responsibility.

Even if we are just acting out a universal desire to reproduce and consume, we have to recognize that this is leading us down the road to ecocide and disaster. If we do not learn to live within the limits of our ecological life support systems, we will destroy those systems and then we will die. Even if we manage to survive somehow, we will live in a world that is only a shadow of the planet we inherited.


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Everything I post is fiction.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14441237 - 05/12/11 05:44 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"Out of millions of species can you not name one to back up your claim?"

My claim is that there is no other species that consumes so much in excess of what survival requires, and that is a simple and self evident fact.

As I said, that may simply be because we are the only species that has the intellectual capacity and technology to appropriate so much from the earth, and not because animals are somehow "better" than us. But that is irrelevant. My point is that if we keep on consuming as much as we are, we will destroy many of the world's ecosystems (we already have) and the results will be disastrous.

Simply saying that we are just doing what all animals do does not excuse our behavior, because just as we have the ability to exploit the earth, we also have the ability to understand the consequences of that, and we have both a moral and a survival imperative to change our ways for our own sake and for the sake of other life forms.


"If Green Peacers truly wanted to lessen the impact, they would off themselves and their children. Instead they reproduce "

I have made the decision not to reproduce for ecological reasons. Of course I do not plan to commit suicide, but I do all that I can to limit my ecological foot print.

"Not a fucking lecture. An answer. Seems you want to preach and not debate. "

I am trying to debate as clearly and honestly as I can, and I am doing so in good faith.



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Everything I post is fiction.


Edited by Moonshoe (05/12/11 05:46 PM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe] * 1
    #14441239 - 05/12/11 05:44 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Not all species consume as much resources as possible.




Still waiting for the single example. :waits:

All I hear is soapbox rhetoric. If your case is so strong, then falsification is unnecessary.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14441262 - 05/12/11 05:48 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I am trying to debate as clearly and honestly as I can, and I am doing so in good faith.




No, you are not. You make a false statement that is part of the core of your position then bend and twist and duck and dodge. That is not honest by any definition.

You have since added several disclaimers and caveats and :blah: that are contrary to your opening statement.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14441275 - 05/12/11 05:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Of course I do not plan to commit suicide, but I do all that I can to limit my ecological foot print.





Again, another boastful and false statement. How much would you wager that I can easily find ways that you could lessen your footprint (not including suicide), but that you will not do so out of desire for comfort?


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14441277 - 05/12/11 05:52 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Well, when it comes to "consuming as much resources as possible" it would seem that many animals do not.

For example, think of a panda. They survive by eating bamboo. They eat bamboo until they are full, and then they stop.

Logically, if they consumed "as much as possible" they would continue pulling bamboo down and eating it even if they were not hungry. But they dont. They eat until they are full, and then they stop.

Similarly mountain gorillas only forage for a few hours a day, enough to meet their needs, and then they stop and rest, or play, or sleep, etc. They dont keep consuming resources to the limits of possibility, they consume to the limits of need

They take as much as they need, not as much as they can.


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Everything I post is fiction.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe] * 1
    #14441296 - 05/12/11 05:56 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

OK, so you clearly do not understand zoology and biology. Makes it very hard to discuss that which you do not grok - that or you are being deliberately obtuse.

This has nothing to do with eating until your stomach ruptures - and I think even you get that; but once again you will not debate in good faith.

The panda population grew until it was limited by the amount of bamboo in the region, not out of any self control. :rolleyes:


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14441315 - 05/12/11 06:02 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

But isn't it the case that we humans have a faculty for forseeing the consequences of our actions that pandas as a species lack?

In other words, since we can forsee that over exploitation and over population will lead to disaster for us, we should stop and check our consumption and reproduction, rather than blindly expanding to the absolute limits of our environment.

That after all, was my original argument. That we are damaging our world and that in the end it is us who will pay the price.

You said that we are simply doing what all animals do, but we differ from other animals in that we can use reason and intellect to predict the consequences of our actions.

All I am arguing is that we should use that faculty and prevent a disaster before it happens, by checking our consumption and reproduction, for our own sake and the sake of future generations.


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Everything I post is fiction.


Edited by Moonshoe (05/12/11 06:03 PM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14441359 - 05/12/11 06:13 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

But isn't it the case that we humans have a faculty for forseeing the consequences of our actions that pandas as a species lack?





Stop with the constant Wall of Text argument. Homey don't play that. I am going no further until we get past this point:

ALL ANIMALS AND PLANTS will expand their territory until they are limited by outside forces.

True or False?


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14441414 - 05/12/11 06:25 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"Stop with the constant Wall of Text argument."

I am sorry, I am not familiar with this term and I don't know what it means.


"ALL ANIMALS AND PLANTS will expand their territory until they are limited by outside forces.

True or False? "

I am not an ecologist, but my guess is true.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe] * 1
    #14441450 - 05/12/11 06:33 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

"Stop with the constant Wall of Text argument."

I am sorry, I am not familiar with this term and I don't know what it means.





It is only in the Logical Fallacies sticky thread. :rolleyes:

Basically, like a machine gun, you keep adding new arguments and tangents faster than anyone can possibly reply in on effort to distract from the original argument.


Quote:

"ALL ANIMALS AND PLANTS will expand their territory until they are limited by outside forces.

True or False? "

I am not an ecologist, but my guess is true.




Yay! :cheer: Why did you make a simple point so fucking difficult?

OK, so you slam humans for doing what ALL animals do. So we can scratch that one off the list, correct?

Now, do you accept my challenge that I can EASILY find ways for you to lessen your carbon footprint?

Yes or no?

Or will you admit that once again you overstated the case?


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (05/12/11 06:38 PM)


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #14441699 - 05/12/11 07:21 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"Basically, like a machine gun, you keep adding new arguments and tangents faster than anyone can possibly reply in on effort to distract from the original argument."

Thank you for explaining the meaning of that term. However, I respectfully disagree that I am guilty of that particular fault.


"OK, so you slam humans for doing what ALL animals do. So we can scratch that one off the list, correct?"

As I have already said, I think that our unique human ability to understand the consequences of our actions means that we cannot simply say "all animals do it so we can too".

We are fundamentally different from other animals, both in the extent of our technological mastery and in our ability to foresee the problems we are causing for ourselves in advance.

Therefore, we have a moral obligation and a basic self-interest that should prevent us from running headlong into ecological collapse simply because plants and animals expand to the limits of their ability.

My intent is not really to "slam" humanity.

My argument can basically be simplified into 3 basic points.

1. Human activities are rapidly destroying the very ecosystems upon which we depend for survival
2. We have the ability to understand this and to change it
3. Therefore, we should.


"Now, do you accept my challenge that I can EASILY find ways for you to lessen your carbon footprint?"

I agree that there is always room for improvement. So yes, you could find ways for me to lessen my carbon footprint.

For example, I could live outside under a bridge instead of a heated and lighted apartment.

However, as someone who has never in his life owned or operated a vehicle, and who relies exclusively on foot power and public transit, it is also true that my personal carbon footprint is unusually low for someone who lives in the developed world.

If I implied that I was "perfect" or had zero impact, however, then yes, "I overstated the case".

Now if I could ask you a question...

If you focus for a moment on these three points, which I believe to be the essence of my original post, can you find anything in them that you disagree with?

again, the three points are:

1. Human activities are rapidly destroying the very ecosystems upon which we depend for survival
2. We have the ability to understand this and to change it
3. Therefore, we should.


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Everything I post is fiction.


Edited by Moonshoe (05/12/11 07:53 PM)


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Offline4896744
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14441722 - 05/12/11 07:26 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

But how could you even justify leaving any unnecessary carbon footprint? Is it not our "moral obligation" to protect the "mother earth"?


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: 4896744]
    #14441766 - 05/12/11 07:34 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"But how could you even justify leaving any unnecessary carbon footprint? Is it not our "moral obligation" to protect the "mother earth"? "

The question becomes what carbon use is necessary and what is "unnecessary". Ultimately that is subjective.

I live in Winnipeg, Canada, where extreme low temperatures make heating "necessary".

My use of electricity to discuss issues on the shroomery is arguably "unnecessary". So I accept that I am not an "environmental saint", nor an ecological martyr.

But I never claimed to be those things.


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Everything I post is fiction.


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Offline4896744
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14441844 - 05/12/11 07:44 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
"But how could you even justify leaving any unnecessary carbon footprint? Is it not our "moral obligation" to protect the "mother earth"? "

The question becomes what carbon use is necessary and what is "unnecessary". Ultimately that is subjective.

I live in Winnipeg, Canada, where extreme low temperatures make heating "necessary".

My use of electricity to discuss issues on the shroomery is arguably "unnecessary". So I accept that I am not an "environmental saint", nor an ecological martyr.

But I never claimed to be those things.




So you then admit that it is ok to break "moral codes" for the sake of personal interest?


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: 4896744]
    #14441881 - 05/12/11 07:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"So you then admit that it is ok to break "moral codes" for the sake of personal interest? "

No. It is simply that my personal moral code is not so rigid or so radical that my own very limited use of energy is in contravention of it. I have a relatively strict eco-ethical code, and I adhere to it.


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Offline4896744
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14441897 - 05/12/11 07:54 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
"So you then admit that it is ok to break "moral codes" for the sake of personal interest? "

No. It is simply that my personal moral code is not so rigid or so radical that my own very limited use of energy is in contravention of it. I have a relatively strict eco-ethical code, and I adhere to it.




How do you base your scale for measuring if your ecological impact is acceptable or not?


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: 4896744]
    #14441918 - 05/12/11 07:57 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"How do you base your scale for measuring if your ecological impact is acceptable or not? "

I can't answer this specifically.

When it comes to moral decisions, we turn inwards, consult our own conscience, and decide. There is no external, objective scale or measure I could point to. Basically the underlying principle is to do as little harm as possible, and always be on the look out for ways to do even less harm.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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Offline4896744
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14441937 - 05/12/11 08:00 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
"How do you base your scale for measuring if your ecological impact is acceptable or not? "

I can't answer this specifically.

When it comes to moral decisions, we turn inwards, consult our own conscience, and decide. There is no external, objective scale or measure I could point to. Basically the underlying principle is to do as little harm as possible, and always be on the look out for ways to do even less harm.




So you then admit that your moral code is based on no more than your personal feelings?


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Live your Life! :heart:


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OfflineLion
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: 4896744]
    #14442135 - 05/12/11 08:36 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Is anyone's moral code not based on his personal feelings?


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14442760 - 05/12/11 10:45 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Even if we are just acting out a universal desire to reproduce and consume, we have to recognize that this is leading us down the road to ecocide and disaster.




Again we supposed to magically overcome our basic programming that made us the dominant species in the first place. Um, OK. How does that work? A rant on PSP?

The sun will burn out one day and we will die. Shame on nature.

So your point is: we will grow and expand until we cannot.
OK, and...?

You keep saying how very selfish we are - and then you fear that we may ruin the eco-system for us. Sounds very selfish.

The species that can adapt - will. And those that cannot - won't. Biology 101.

Do you also curse the climate change and asteroids that previously wiped out most life on earth?

Quote:

If we do not learn to live within the limits of our ecological life support systems, we will destroy those systems and then we will die.



If we do, then all is well. If we don't, then another species becomes dominant. The circle keeps turning.

Either way, the earth cannot be harmed.


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #14443219 - 05/13/11 12:13 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I'm with ya Moonshoe! Yeah we are animals who need to consume but we don't need millions of acres of housing developments and asphalt to survive. We also don't need billions of orgone's to continue into the future. Many organisms on this planet thrive on symbiotic relationships (if not all) and we are just a spec on the geological timescale of earth (a planet that's just a spec of dust in an immense universe). No need to bother with this argument though. A sharp correction in the human population growth curve is coming to a town near you!

Learn to swim bitches!


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"Thanks to impermanence, everything is possible."
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: guitardude3]
    #14443330 - 05/13/11 12:45 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

We also don't need billions of orgone's




I hear ya. Educated, rational, centered types are screwing things up more than hotheads unable to formulate a cogent argument. :rolleyes:

Learn to debate, bitches!


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Re: The most important struggle in history *DELETED* [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14443355 - 05/13/11 12:54 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Post deleted by guitardude3

Reason for deletion: Not worth the flak.



--------------------
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: guitardude3]
    #14443522 - 05/13/11 02:09 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

guitardude3 said:
I didn't come here to debate, more like troll around...


:ban:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #14444072 - 05/13/11 07:26 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"Again we supposed to magically overcome our basic programming that made us the dominant species in the first place."

There is nothing magical about using rational abilities and ethical deliberation to decide a wise and sustainable course of action.

"The sun will burn out one day and we will die. Shame on nature."

It is true that the sun will burn out one day and we will all die (unless we have become a space-faring species by that time).

I do not believe that this excuses us from responsibility for our actions or makes it ok to destroy the planet while we have it.


"You keep saying how very selfish we are - and then you fear that we may ruin the eco-system for us. Sounds very selfish."

There is nothing selfish about taking practicable and responsible steps to ensure that future generations can live in a beautiful and habitable world. Also, what is good for us (maintaining a livable earth) is also good for all other life forms.

I don't see anything selfish about being ecologically responsible.  Quite the opposite in fact.

"The species that can adapt - will. And those that cannot - won't. Biology 101."

Again, we are human beings. Our actions cannot be reduced to invariable biological laws. I do not agree with your deterministic position that we are doomed to follow a given path. We are humans. We can think, deliberate, make ethical judgments, and choose our path. And we should choose a path that does not lead to a barren and impoverished planet.

"Do you also curse the climate change and asteroids that previously wiped out most life on earth?"

No, because those were inanimate and impersonal forces that cannot be imputed moral responsibility. The same cannot be said of humans. You are equating rocks to people, and that is logically invalid.


"Either way, the earth cannot be harmed. "

Again, it depends how you define Earth. If you define Earth as a living system, as I do, than it can be harmed, just as we (also living systems) can be harmed. The earth is made of living tissues, communities and populations, just like our own bodies, and just like our bodies, if enough of those tissues, communities and populations are destroyed, the Earth (as a living system) will die.

If you are really having trouble understanding this, imagine if humans detonated all their nuclear weapons and vaporized the entire planet. Would you still cling to your insistence that "the Earth cannot be harmed" ?

If so, I doubt you would find many who share your view.


 


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


Edited by Moonshoe (05/13/11 07:36 AM)


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14444115 - 05/13/11 07:40 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

We’re so self-important. So self-important. Everybody’s going to save something now. “Save the trees, save the bees, save the whales, save those snails.” And the greatest arrogance of all: save the planet. What? Are these fucking people kidding me? Save the planet, we don’t even know how to take care of ourselves yet. We haven’t learned how to care for one another, we’re gonna save the fucking planet?

I’m getting tired of that shit. Tired of that shit. I’m tired of fucking Earth Day, I’m tired of these self-righteous environmentalists, these white, bourgeois liberals who think the only thing wrong with this country is there aren’t enough bicycle paths. People trying to make the world save for their Volvos. Besides, environmentalists don’t give a shit about the planet. They don’t care about the planet. Not in the abstract they don’t. Not in the abstract they don’t. You know what they’re interested in? A clean place to live. Their own habitat. They’re worried that some day in the future, they might be personally inconvenienced. Narrow, unenlightened self-interest doesn’t impress me.

Besides, there is nothing wrong with the planet. Nothing wrong with the planet. The planet is fine. The PEOPLE are fucked. Difference. Difference. The planet is fine. Compared to the people, the planet is doing great. Been here four and a half billion years. Did you ever think about the arithmetic? The planet has been here four and a half billion years. We’ve been here, what, a hundred thousand? Maybe two hundred thousand? And we’ve only been engaged in heavy industry for a little over two hundred years. Two hundred years versus four and a half billion. And we have the CONCEIT to think that somehow we’re a threat? That somehow we’re gonna put in jeopardy this beautiful little blue-green ball that’s just a-floatin’ around the sun?

The planet has been through a lot worse than us. Been through all kinds of things worse than us. Been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, continental drift, solar flares, sun spots, magnetic storms, the magnetic reversal of the poles…hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets and asteroids and meteors, worlwide floods, tidal waves, worldwide fires, erosion, cosmic rays, recurring ice ages…And we think some plastic bags, and some aluminum cans are going to make a difference? The planet…the planet…the planet isn’t going anywhere. WE ARE!

We’re going away. Pack your shit, folks. We’re going away. And we won’t leave much of a trace, either. Thank God for that. Maybe a little styrofoam. Maybe. A little styrofoam. The planet’ll be here and we’ll be long gone. Just another failed mutation. Just another closed-end biological mistake. An evolutionary cul-de-sac. The planet’ll shake us off like a bad case of fleas. A surface nuisance.

You wanna know how the planet’s doing? Ask those people at Pompeii, who are frozen into position from volcanic ash, how the planet’s doing. You wanna know if the planet’s all right, ask those people in Mexico City or Armenia or a hundred other places buried under thousands of tons of earthquake rubble, if they feel like a threat to the planet this week. Or how about those people in Kilowaia, Hawaii, who built their homes right next to an active volcano, and then wonder why they have lava in the living room.

The planet will be here for a long, long, LONG time after we’re gone, and it will heal itself, it will cleanse itself, ’cause that’s what it does. It’s a self-correcting system. The air and the water will recover, the earth will be renewed, and if it’s true that plastic is not degradable, well, the planet will simply incorporate plastic into a new pardigm: the earth plus plastic. The earth doesn’t share our prejudice towards plastic. Plastic came out of the earth. The earth probably sees plastic as just another one of its children. Could be the only reason the earth allowed us to be spawned from it in the first place. It wanted plastic for itself. Didn’t know how to make it. Needed us. Could be the answer to our age-old egocentric philosophical question, “Why are we here?” Plastic…asshole.

So, the plastic is here, our job is done, we can be phased out now. And I think that’s begun. Don’t you think that’s already started? I think, to be fair, the planet sees us as a mild threat. Something to be dealt with. And the planet can defend itself in an organized, collective way, the way a beehive or an ant colony can. A collective defense mechanism. The planet will think of something. What would you do if you were the planet? How would you defend yourself against this troublesome, pesky species? Let’s see… Viruses. Viruses might be good. They seem vulnerable to viruses. And, uh…viruses are tricky, always mutating and forming new strains whenever a vaccine is developed. Perhaps, this first virus could be one that compromises the immune system of these creatures. Perhaps a human immunodeficiency virus, making them vulnerable to all sorts of other diseases and infections that might come along. And maybe it could be spread sexually, making them a little reluctant to engage in the act of reproduction.

Well, that’s a poetic note. And it’s a start. And I can dream, can’t I? See I don’t worry about the little things: bees, trees, whales, snails. I think we’re part of a greater wisdom than we will ever understand. A higher order. Call it what you want. Know what I call it? The Big Electron. The Big Electron…whoooa. Whoooa. Whoooa. It doesn’t punish, it doesn’t reward, it doesn’t judge at all. It just is. And so are we. For a little while.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: xFrockx] * 1
    #14444139 - 05/13/11 07:50 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

That is George Carlin right?

I have heard that one before.

There is nothing I can say that will convince people who refuse to believe they have a responsibility to protect, preserve and care for the planet.

Funny how they have no problem damaging , polluting and exploiting it, but as soon as someone suggests we should clean it up and restore it, they go on a venomous rant.

If you shared a house with ten other people and every day you shit on the floor, broke the furniture and spit on the walls, you would be an asshole who does not deserve to live in the house.

And if when your roommates suggested you cleaned up after yourself, you go on a big rant about "the house cannot be harmed! you don't care about the house! not in the abstract you don't! "

Then you would be a self-deceiving and dishonest asshole.

Those who think that "we cannot harm the planet, the planet has been through worse than us" are simply in denial about how powerful human technology has become.

Welcome to the age of the Nuclear bomb. Wake up and smell the fallout.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: guitardude3]
    #14444273 - 05/13/11 08:35 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

guitardude3, you're new around here so you may not know that personal attacks are against the rules. If you can't debate the topic without insulting people, then you should not post here. Try the OTD forum where insulting each other is how they debate here.

Consider this your warning.

Meanwhile, read the rules here before you post again:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4526664#4526664


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14444398 - 05/13/11 09:07 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

"There is nothing I can say that will convince people who refuse to believe they have a responsibility to protect, preserve and care for the planet."




Responsibility? How do you know what our responsibilities are in life? Here's a hint: You don't.


We don't even have the responsibility to not shit where we eat. If we chose to, there is no greater consequence to doing so. You might eat shit if you shit where you eat, but it is what it is.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: xFrockx]
    #14444459 - 05/13/11 09:27 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

If you have decided that you have no morality, no ethics, no sense of justice, no belief in right or wrong, that is your own perogative, and as far as I know no one has yet come up with a philosophical argument that can convince you otherwise.

The rest of us who believe that there are some things worth fighting for, and some things that should not be done, will have to go on without your help.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14444732 - 05/13/11 10:31 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I'm on Moonshoe's side.
It's the first time in history, that there's a species with so much power over and impact on their environment. This demands responsibility. That's why (and how) our 'intelligence' developed. To use this responsibility to not destroy ourself and let the earth be a pleasant habitat until we found ways to populate space.
The biodiversity is a resource for future researchers to find out new dependencies and patterns in biological life in connection with its 'natural' habitat itself. The results can be used in physics, medicine, all engineering and whatever else.
By destroying it, we loose resources of knowledge for coming generations.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (05/13/11 10:43 AM)


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14444923 - 05/13/11 11:06 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

You can believe whatever you want, it just means that you believe it. Not anything more than that.

Note that I personally do not shit where I eat. I don't particularly enjoy eating shit.


Edited by xFrockx (05/13/11 11:09 AM)


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OfflineJordan Black
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14445092 - 05/13/11 11:37 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Wow. I Can't believe anyone would argue at such length about something as obvious as "we need to take care of the planet because its the only one we have".

I don't think anyone actually disagrees with that. Just arguing for its own sake.


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14445135 - 05/13/11 11:46 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

My commitment to that idea ends where we start telling people how to live. The point of life is not living, nor is the point of earth to sustain our species forever. That is a selfish ideal.

This planet could be wiped out for reasons totally unrelated to human consumption, comets, meteors, unknown, etc, that there is absolutely no point in turning this place into a place for humans to be sustained in some forced, ecologically superior way.

If you want people to be sterilized, start with yourself. If you want people to restrict their diet, start with yourself. But don't try to force these things on people who aren't you. It is not your place and there is no greater purpose behind any efforts of that kind.


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OfflineJordan Black
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: xFrockx]
    #14445167 - 05/13/11 11:55 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Messing up the planet makes no more sense than burning your own house down.

And Im not trying to "force" anything on anyone?

I thought the whole point of a forum was to share ideas and opinions?

Edit: also, what do you mean by "the point of life is not living"?

Can't get my head around that one...


Edited by Jordan Black (05/13/11 11:56 AM)


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Invisiblehelix
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: xFrockx]
    #14445221 - 05/13/11 12:14 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
You can believe whatever you want, it just means that you believe it. Not anything more than that.

Note that I personally do not shit where I eat. I don't particularly enjoy eating shit.




I'm on moonshine's side for this reason:

We can all believe whatever we want, but living in harmony with nature rather than against it doesn't come from any human mind, which is only one piece of the puzzle. It comes from consulting the earth. The one constant across all sciences is that Nature builds on complexity. If we're doing something that's preventing it's ability to do that, then we're not living in harmony with nature, which qualifies to me as shitting where you eat

Of course nobody's making you do anything, I agree moonshine's posts are coming off as a little preachy. Drastic situations call for drastic measures perhaps? Sadly, forcing people to do something never works, they have to come to the conclusion for themselves, but Frockx sounds like you HAVE come to the conclusion? I'm with you in that for moral reasons though, you shouldn't make anyone do anything, it's pointless, but yes, this is a debate forum

If Orgone is still interested in this thread please come back, I am quite interested more in what you think and will not post walls of texts!


Edited by helix (05/13/11 12:17 PM)


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14445252 - 05/13/11 12:21 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
I do not believe that this excuses us from responsibility for our actions or makes it ok to destroy the planet while we have it.


We do not have the capability to destroy our planet--we can destroy the planet's ecosystems, but that's not the same thing as destroying the planet.


Quote:

Moonshoe said:
I don't see anything selfish about being ecologically responsible.  Quite the opposite in fact.


You want to live in a healthy environment, don't you? How is there nothing selfish about that? :undecided:


Quote:

Moonshoe said:
"The species that can adapt - will. And those that cannot - won't. Biology 101."

Again, we are human beings. Our actions cannot be reduced to invariable biological laws.


Why not? Why are humans an exception?


Quote:

Moonshoe said:
"Either way, the earth cannot be harmed. "

Again, it depends how you define Earth. If you define Earth as a living system, as I do, than it can be harmed, just as we (also living systems) can be harmed.


The Earth is not a life form..the Gaia hypothesis has not been proven.


Quote:

Moonshoe said:
The earth is made of living tissues, communities and populations, just like our own bodies, and just like our bodies, if enough of those tissues, communities and populations are destroyed, the Earth (as a living system) will die.


Since the Earth is not alive, it can't die..again, though, all of its ecosystems can be destroyed.


Quote:

Moonshoe said:
If you are really having trouble understanding this, imagine if humans detonated all their nuclear weapons and vaporized the entire planet. Would you still cling to your insistence that "the Earth cannot be harmed" ?

If so, I doubt you would find many who share your view.


Many well-informed people already know that all the nukes in the world cannot vaporize the entire planet..if you have evidence which shows that it can, I'd be very interested in looking it over.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineJordan Black
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14445282 - 05/13/11 12:27 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

It seems to me that moonshoe is simply saying that the living world (whether you call it "Earth" or "Earth's ecosystems") should be protected and not destroyed.

And the rest of you (mostly) are completely missing that point and niggling over silly details.

The spirit of his post is just that we should take care of our planet.

Ive read through this whole long ass thread and I am amazed at the nitpicking BS going on.

Some people would rather have a ten hour argument over phrasing and wording than do a god damn thing to make the world a better place

:puke:


Edited by Jordan Black (05/13/11 12:28 PM)


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14445296 - 05/13/11 12:32 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Jordan Black said:
Some people would rather have a ten hour argument over phrasing and wording than do a god damn thing to make the world a better place


This is a debate forum, not a "save-the-world" forum..if you guys don't like debating over phrasing and wording, then you don't have to post in threads where such debating is occurring. If the purpose of this thread was to spread a message about living an eco-friendly lifestyle, and not about debating a certain position on some kind of matter, then it was posted in the wrong forum.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Poid]
    #14445376 - 05/13/11 12:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

As I said before, My whole argument boils down to three simple points


1. Human activities are rapidly destroying the very ecosystems upon which we depend for survival
2. We have the ability to understand this and to change it
3. Therefore, we should.

If anyone actually disagrees with any of these points, I would be interested to hear why. The rest, as far as I am concerned, is beside the point.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14445427 - 05/13/11 01:04 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I disagree with number 1 and 2.  I don't think humans are destroying the ecosysystem, and I am highly skeptical as to our ability to understand and change it.

A changed ecosystem is not a destroyed ecosystem.


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: DieCommie]
    #14445455 - 05/13/11 01:10 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Well, all I can say is that if you don't think humans are destroying ecosystems, your opinnion are at odds with every environmental scientist I have ever read, and I read environmental scholarship for a living.

If you dont define global mass extinctions as the destruction of ecosystems, how do you define it?


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Everything I post is fiction.


Edited by Moonshoe (05/13/11 01:10 PM)


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: DieCommie]
    #14445495 - 05/13/11 01:20 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
I disagree with number 1 and 2.  I don't think humans are destroying the ecosysystem




"Habitat destruction caused by humans includes conversion of land to agriculture, urban sprawl, infrastructure development, and other anthropogenic changes to the characteristics of land. Habitat degradation, fragmentation, and pollution are aspects of habitat destruction caused by humans that do not necessarily involve overt destruction of habitat, yet result in habitat collapse. Desertification, deforestation, and coral reef degradation are specific types of habitat destruction for those areas (deserts, forests, coral reefs).
Geist and Lambin (2002) assessed 152 case studies of net losses of tropical forest cover to determine any patterns in the proximate and underlying causes of tropical deforestation. Their results, yielded as percentages of the case studies in which each parameter was a significant factor, provide a quantitative prioritization of which proximate and underlying causes were the most significant. The proximate causes were clustered into broad categories of agricultural expansion (96%), infrastructure expansion (72%), and wood extraction (67%). Therefore, according to this study, forest conversion to agriculture is the main land use change responsible for tropical deforestation. The specific categories reveal further insight into the specific causes of tropical deforestation: transport extension (64%), commercial wood extraction (52%), permanent cultivation (48%), cattle ranching (46%), shifting (slash and burn) cultivation (41%), subsistence agriculture (40%), and fuel wood extraction for domestic use (28%). One result is that shifting cultivation is not the primary cause of deforestation in all world regions, while transport extension (including the construction of new roads) is the largest single proximate factor responsible for deforestation."


Any natural climate changes have happened over the course of millions of years, not in the short period of time we've been seeing things happen lately


Edited by helix (05/13/11 01:20 PM)


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14445496 - 05/13/11 01:20 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Destruction of the ecosystem necessarily entails no more ecosystem.  There have been mass extinctions through out earth's history - and yet the ecosystem still exists.  This is conclusive evidence that mass extinction does not entail the destruction of the ecosystem.

Ill say again, a changed ecosystem is not a destroyed ecosystem.


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: DieCommie]
    #14445502 - 05/13/11 01:22 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"mass extinction does not entail the destruction of the ecosystem."


Right.

And a house that has been burned to the ground is not a destroyed house.

A person who has been shot in the head is not a dead man.

:rolleyes:


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Edited by Moonshoe (05/13/11 01:27 PM)


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: DieCommie]
    #14445528 - 05/13/11 01:26 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Well, which way would you rather have it? I don't think "we can fuck it up, but we can't kill it" is a solid argument.


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: DieCommie]
    #14445547 - 05/13/11 01:31 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)



My, what a lovely ecosystem!


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14445611 - 05/13/11 01:42 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:


My, what a lovely ecosystem!




Your opinion of the loveliness of an ecosystem is just that, a subjective opinion.  There is an ecosystem in that picture whether you like it or not.


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: DieCommie]
    #14445627 - 05/13/11 01:45 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Right. In the same way that there is a house in this one.



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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14445636 - 05/13/11 01:47 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Nope, thats not a house.  At least, its not a house for humans.  Im sure other species would feel quite at home in there.


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: DieCommie]
    #14445646 - 05/13/11 01:50 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Someday your children will come and say to you "Dad, the whole world is a wasteland and all the animals are extinct. Why didn't you DO anything about it?"

And you will say... "I did! I argued that It wasn't happening!"

:thumbdown:


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14445655 - 05/13/11 01:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

If all the animals are extinct, how could I have children?  You do realize that humans are animals right?  We are not separate from nature and the ecosystem, we are forever embedded within it.


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: DieCommie]
    #14445666 - 05/13/11 01:55 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Presumably your hypothetical child was talking about the non-human animals.


Wordplay and bullshit, wordplay and bullshit.


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14446095 - 05/13/11 03:29 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

It makes me cry when I think about what we are doing to this world, all the dolphins and whales we are killing, the oil spill in the gulf coast, the nuclear reactors in Japan, the rainforest being cut down, it makes me soooo sad I could just die...

:sad:


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14446141 - 05/13/11 03:38 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Wow. I Can't believe anyone would argue at such length about something as obvious as "we need to take care of the planet because its the only one we have".





Do you have an ACTUAL counterpoint to something I wrote?

Do you have a clue what an Argument From Incredulity is? (Hint: read the sticky thread)


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14446169 - 05/13/11 03:43 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Wow. I Can't believe anyone would argue at such length about something as obvious as "we need to take care of the planet because its the only one we have".





Do you have an ACTUAL counterpoint to something I wrote?

Do you have a clue what an Argument From Incredulity is? (Hint: read the sticky thread)




Is it just me, or has there been a recent influx of these types?


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: 4896744]
    #14446176 - 05/13/11 03:44 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Nah, it's not just you. :thumbup:


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: helix]
    #14446184 - 05/13/11 03:46 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

We can all believe whatever we want, but living in harmony with nature rather than against it doesn't come from any human mind, which is only one piece of the puzzle




I see. You live in a forest without any clothes or shelter then?


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: baby9]
    #14446213 - 05/13/11 03:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

It makes me cry when I think about what we are doing to this world, all the dolphins and whales we are killing, the oil spill in the gulf coast, the nuclear reactors in Japan, the rainforest being cut down, it makes me soooo sad I could just die...




Do you cry for the shark population that has been decimated?

The oil in the gulf came from where exactly? (Hint: mother Earth)

The nuclear reactors wouldn't have been be a problem if what didn't happen? (Hint: earthquake)


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14446230 - 05/13/11 03:54 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yes it is so horrible that they eat only the sharks fin and throw the shark away!!

Sharks are scary but they should not be killed just for there fins!


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14446235 - 05/13/11 03:55 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The spirit of his post is just that we should take care of our planet.



What does that mean - exactly?

Quote:

Ive read through this whole long ass thread and I am amazed at the nitpicking BS going on.



Well, Moonshoe already backed off ona a false statement and an overstatement.

How does emotionalism and exaggeration build a solid case?
Should we base action on falsehoods?


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14446263 - 05/13/11 04:00 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
How does emotionalism and exaggeration build a solid case?


I don't know, but that all these "ecologically aware" vegetarians seem to be capable of bringing to the table. :lol:


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fireworks_god said:
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14446307 - 05/13/11 04:06 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Someday your children will come and say to you "Dad, the whole world is a wasteland and all the animals are extinct. Why didn't you DO anything about it?"





Long ago, what did the husband say to the wife when their child was eaten by a large predator?

"Honey, we could have killed that crocodile/tiger/bear/wolf/etc. but that might have upset the ecosystem. Better that our child died."

Sound reasonable?

Ever seen a Florida backyard with fire ant mounds? Would you let your children play there or would you get 5 gallons of gas and a match?


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Poid]
    #14446320 - 05/13/11 04:08 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
How does emotionalism and exaggeration build a solid case?


I don't know, but that all these "ecologically aware" vegetarians seem to be capable of bringing to the table. :lol:





Not much different than Prohibitionists whose main 'point' is hand-wringing emotionalism, "Think of the children!"


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (05/13/11 04:16 PM)


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14446334 - 05/13/11 04:11 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
How does emotionalism and exaggeration build a solid case?


I don't know, but that all these "ecologically aware" vegetarians seem to be capable of bringing to the table. :lol:





Not much different than Prohibtionists whose main 'point' is hand-wringing emotionalism, "Think of the children!"


Not at all, my friend, not at all. :nonono:


Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Ever seen a Florida backyard with fire ant mounds? Would you let your children play there or would you get 5 gallons of gas and a match?


:rofl2::thumbup:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14446339 - 05/13/11 04:12 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I agree moonshoe's arguments
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

The spirit of his post is just that we should take care of our planet.



What does that mean - exactly?

Quote:

Ive read through this whole long ass thread and I am amazed at the nitpicking BS going on.



Well, Moonshoe already backed off ona a false statement and an overstatement.

How does emotionalism and exaggeration build a solid case?
Should we base action on falsehoods?




I agree that the manner in which moonshoe put this topic and carries it on is spoken with a tone that's more in line with emotional sensationalism rather than factual and objective, however, i also see how nitpicking is failing to see the very serious and real topic that he's presenting, even if it's not being argued in a super objective sounding manner

I'm not sure that i've said anything here...i guess what i'm saying is can't we all just get along? lol


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14446360 - 05/13/11 04:16 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:


My, what a lovely ecosystem!





Hmmm, I wonder who fucked over the hundreds of square miles of pristine forest around Mt. St. Helens?

I wonder how the eco-system is doing today?

(Try just a teeney bit of research. I know that is asking a lot.)


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: helix]
    #14446363 - 05/13/11 04:16 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Forgive our questioning in a debate forum.


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14446422 - 05/13/11 04:26 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

There is absolutely no question that the world is in really rough shape, by any scientific or ecological measure you care to employ.

There is absolutely no doubt that this situation is the result of short-sighted and incredibly destructive human practices such as clear-cutting and bottom trawling.

And if we have any concern for future generations, non-human animals, or the long term well being of society, than we obviously need to do something about this situation before it gets totally out of our control.

That, to me, is the important point here, and it seems like some of you are dead set on ignoring it in favor of niggling details, wordgames and petty arguments.

You guys keep talking about how this is a "debate forum" but the truth is there isnt really anything to debate. The ecological crisis is real, and you need to resort to some pretty flimsy tactics to even form an argument around something so obvious and self evident.

I get it though. You guys are here because you enjoy arguing for its own sake. It is fun to argue.

Hopefully as a species we can perform better than the trolls and nitpickers on this forum, though, otherwise we are FUCKED.


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14446439 - 05/13/11 04:29 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Looks like unsubstantiated fear mongering to me.  You make a lot of claims about certainty, with no support at all. 

There is no such things as scientific or ecological measures of the world being in 'tough shape'.  That is a purely nonobjective judgement call on your part.  There is no way the earth 'should' be, there is no such thing as 'destruction' without appealing to your own personal wants and desires.


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14446452 - 05/13/11 04:32 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

There is absolutely no question that the world is in really rough shape, by any scientific or ecological measure you care to employ.




'There is absolutely no question' is not an argument. Can't even give you a nice try.

Quote:

There is absolutely no doubt that this situation is the result of short-sighted and incredibly destructive human practices such as clear-cutting and bottom trawling.



'There is absolutely no doubt' is not an argument either.

Quote:

and you need to resort to some pretty flimsy tactics to even form an argument around something so obvious and self evident.



'Obvious and self-evident' are not arguments either. This is getting stale.

When you want to go before Congress or write an article for Time magazine or Mother Earth News or start your own blog, you will have to have THE DISCIPLINE AND UNDERSTANDING of how to present your case.

Disgust and rage and shoulds will not cut it. So far I am waiting for you to stop whining and make a single salient point.


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (05/13/11 04:39 PM)


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: DieCommie]
    #14446476 - 05/13/11 04:36 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"there is no such things as scientific or ecological measures of the world being in 'tough shape'."

:rofl2:

http://wwf.panda.org/about_our_earth/all_publications/living_planet_report/

Download the report if you want to find out how wrong you are


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14446500 - 05/13/11 04:40 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"So far I am waiting for you to stop whining and make a single salient point"

To tell you the truth I was thinking the same thing about you!

just goes to show I guess :grin:


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14446509 - 05/13/11 04:41 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Another :failboat:

Linking a website is not an argument.


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14446520 - 05/13/11 04:43 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

No its not an argument. But it is a link to the most comprehensive existing set of scientific data on the current state of the world's ecological health, which, if you would take the time to read it, would put to rest any doubts you might have about how dire the situation is.

You criticize me for making unsubstantiated claims, and then you scoff when I point you in the direction of the relevant data.

because you aren't interested in knowing the truth or the science, you just want to take snarky little pot shots.

Fine with me. But if you want to learn something about the state of the Earth, read the report, then get back to me when you actually know something.

:thumbup:


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14446530 - 05/13/11 04:45 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
There is no such things as scientific or ecological measures of the world being in 'tough shape'.  That is a purely nonobjective judgement call on your part.  There is no way the earth 'should' be, there is no such thing as 'destruction' without appealing to your own personal wants and desires.





So let's assume that there's no way to know whether or not we are actually capable of "destroying" the planet. Would you say that we can at least know that we are using the resources of the planet at a rate faster then it can regenerate? If you can agree that you see that then that means that in a matter of time, if we continue in this manner, we will run out of resources and our species will die out ala' tragedy of the commons. So let's forget about "saving the planet," what about preserving the lifespan of our species? Would you agree that there's objective evidence for the needs for that at least?


Edited by helix (05/13/11 04:47 PM)


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14446538 - 05/13/11 04:47 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

because you aren't interested in knowing the truth or the science, you just want to take snarky little pot shots.




No, I am trying to direct you how to play the game here (and elsewhere) as I already stated. Words have power - if you know how to use them.

Pick one small single point (not a meandering mish-mash)and build a strong case to convince us - IN YOUR WORDS. It really is that simple.


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: helix]
    #14446547 - 05/13/11 04:48 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Exactly. Everyone gets caught up on these abstract issues of whether or not we can in some absolute sense "kill the planet" and ignores the tangible realities of pollution, resource depletion, collapsed fish stocks, climate change, air borne particulates causing lung cancer, reduced air quality, increasing climate related natural disasters and massive species extinction.

Whatever it takes to let them sleep at night.

Good comments on this thread aronf13, you have been a lonely voice of reason.


Edited by Jordan Black (05/13/11 04:48 PM)


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: helix]
    #14446550 - 05/13/11 04:48 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Would you say that we can at least know that we are using the resources of the planet at a rate faster then it can regenerate?




OK. Name one species that does NOT have cycles of expansion and contraction.


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #14446563 - 05/13/11 04:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

if you have one hundred potatos in a bag, and every day you get one new potato, and you eat ten potatos a day, how long until you starve to death?

Not too fucking long.


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14446575 - 05/13/11 04:54 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

OK, I give up on you. :rolleyes:


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (05/13/11 05:07 PM)


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #14446599 - 05/13/11 05:01 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

so... I win???

:cheer:

Hurray!!!


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14446641 - 05/13/11 05:10 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

No. It merely means I will no longer try to help you. It is like when I beat a young up and comer 15-2 in racquetball and tried to point out his weaknesses and he barked at me. It was not my loss that he refused free insight, now was it?

You have been here for days and know more about this forum than someone who has been here over 12 years, is that it?

I guess that is a 'win'. Carry on.


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #14446744 - 05/13/11 05:27 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Ahhh yes, the "argument from seniority" . Another classic.

(im trying on your style now)


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Jordan Black] * 2
    #14446775 - 05/13/11 05:33 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Good point except I made no argument. Nice to see you read a little, but you have to know when to apply a fallacy.


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14447683 - 05/13/11 08:24 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
All I am arguing is that we should use that faculty and prevent a disaster before it happens, by checking our consumption and reproduction, for our own sake and the sake of future generations.




Either that or turn off the HAARP machine.  New Madrid a comin' round the bend.  Let the water go now!

Oh and hey Moon long time...


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #14448149 - 05/13/11 09:35 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Small orbiting planetary bodies gotsta stick together.


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14449777 - 05/14/11 06:25 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Would you say that we can at least know that we are using the resources of the planet at a rate faster then it can regenerate?




OK. Name one species that does NOT have cycles of expansion and contraction.




"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function."

-Albert Allen Bartlett

As for death of ecosystem, I have a single link to end this shit:

Dead Zone

Areas of depleted oxygen in which no marine life can live.  Can be of natural or human causes.

We can effectively kill entire ecosystems because of our activity.


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Cannashroom]
    #14449791 - 05/14/11 06:34 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

We can effectively kill entire ecosystems because of our activity.




For how long?

I like how you overlooked my Mt. St. Helens reference.


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Cannashroom]
    #14449794 - 05/14/11 06:35 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Ok, one more, just for good measure.

Holocene extinction

Quote:

The Holocene extinction refers to the extinction of species during the present Holocene epoch (since around 10,000 BC) generally from the impact of humans. The large number of extinctions span numerous families of plants and animals including mammals, birds, amphibians, reptiles and arthropods; a sizeable fraction of these extinctions are occurring in the rainforests. 875 extinctions occurring between 1500 and 2009 have been documented by the International Union for Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources.[1] However, most extinctions go undocumented. According to the species-area theory and based on upper-bound estimating, up to 140,000 species per year may be the present rate of extinction.[2]

In broad usage, Holocene extinction includes the disappearance of large mammals, known as megafauna, starting roughly 11,500 years ago as humans developed and spread. Such disappearances have normally been considered as either a result of global warming (the current climate change), a result of the proliferation of modern humans, or both; however in 2007 a cometary impact hypothesis was presented, but has not been broadly accepted. These extinctions, occurring near the Pleistocene–Holocene boundary, are sometimes referred to as the Quaternary extinction event or Ice Age extinction. However, the Holocene extinction may be regarded as continuing into the 21st century.

There is no general agreement on whether to consider more recent extinctions as a distinct event, merely part of the Quaternary extinction event, or just a result of natural evolution on a non-geologic scale of time. Only during these most recent parts of the extinction have plants also suffered large losses. Overall, the Holocene extinction can be characterized by climate change and humanity's presence.




Quote:

One scientist estimates the extinction may be 10,000 times the background extinction rate (the average between mass extinction events).[3][4] Nevertheless, in earlier studies, most scientists predicted a much lower extinction rate than this outlying estimate.[5]

Megafaunal extinctions continue into the 21st century. Modern extinctions are more directly attributable to human influences. Extinction rates are minimized in the popular imagination by the survival of captive populations of animals that are extinct in the wild (Père David's Deer, etc.), by marginal survivals of highly-publicized megafauna that are ecologically extinct (the Giant Panda, Sumatran Rhinoceros, North American Black-Footed Ferret, etc.) and by extinctions among arthropods. Some examples of modern extinctions of "charismatic" mammal fauna include:

    * Aurochs, Europe
    * Tarpan, Europe
    * Thylacine or Tasmanian Tiger, Thylacinus cynocephalus, Tasmania [extinction disputed]
    * Quagga, a zebra relative, Southeast Africa
    * Steller's Sea Cow
    * Falkland Island Fox
    * Atlas Bear
    * Eastern Cougar[6]

Many birds have become extinct as a result of human activity, especially birds endemic to islands, including many flightless birds (see a more complete list under extinct birds). Notable extinct birds include:

    * the Dodo, the giant flightless pigeon of Mauritius, Indian Ocean
    * the Great Auk of islands in the north Atlantic
    * the Passenger Pigeon of North America
    * several species of Moa, giant flightless birds from New Zealand
    * the Carolina Parakeet of the American southeast

A 1998 poll conducted by the American Museum of Natural History found that seventy percent of biologists believe that we are in the midst of an anthropogenic extinction.[7] Numerous scientific studies—such as a 2004 report published in Nature,[8] and papers authored by the 10,000 scientists who contribute to the IUCN's annual Red List of threatened species—have since reinforced this conviction. In The Future of Life (2002), E.O. Wilson of Harvard calculated that, if the current rate of human disruption of the biosphere continues, one-half of Earth's higher lifeforms will be extinct by 2100.

Peter Raven, past President of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, states in the foreword to their publication AAAS Atlas of Population and Environment:[9] "We have driven the rate of biological extinction, the permanent loss of species, up several hundred times beyond its historical levels, and are threatened with the loss of a majority of all species by the end of the 21st century."[10] Some of the human causes of the current extinctions include deforestation, hunting, pollution, climate change,[11] and the introduction of non-native species.
The Golden Toad of Costa Rica, extinct since around 1989. Its disappearance has been attributed to a confluence of several factors, including El Niño warming, fungus, and the introduction of invasive species.

189 countries which are signatory to the Rio Accord have committed to preparing a Biodiversity Action Plan, a first step at identifying specific endangered species and habitats, country by country.




The consensus among scientists in ecology is we are fucking it up bad.  Anyone want to refute this?


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein


Edited by Cannashroom (05/14/11 06:44 AM)


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14449806 - 05/14/11 06:42 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

We can effectively kill entire ecosystems because of our activity.




For how long?

I like how you overlooked my Mt. St. Helens reference.




I didn't post the picture, what did it have to do with me?  I never denied nature caused the overwhelming majority of extinctions to this point.  It is a pretty obvious fact, the debate is about the impact humans are causing now, not what nature can do vs humans.  Of course volcanoes kill shit, no one was denying that.  You are just changing the subject to avoid my argument.  You bash others debating techniques and then skirt the issue by changing the subject to something the OP wasn't talking about.  Nobody denies a comet can fuck us up badly, but that doesn't negate the fact that we can also fuck our selves up.

Just because there is the possibility that somebody shoots me in the face tomorrow isn't reason to not keep myself healthy today...

As for the length of time, I think it is a bit irrelevant.  Of course they will come back eventually, but if a species entire habitat was engulfed then they would become extinct, and even when the dead zone subsided their species would be forever gone.


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein


Edited by Cannashroom (05/14/11 06:43 AM)


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Cannashroom]
    #14449812 - 05/14/11 06:46 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"Of course they will come back eventually, but if a species entire habitat was engulfed then they would become extinct, and even when the dead zone subsided their species would be forever gone. "

If the koala bears all go away, then we won't have them to pet anymore!


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Cannashroom]
    #14449819 - 05/14/11 06:52 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

the debate is about the impact humans are causing now




OK, then why are so many arguing about what may happen to humans tomorrow?

Again, is there any single species that does not damage others? Do jungle ants not eat everything in their path?

Would you rather swim in a river in which all of the alligators and crocoddiles have been killed or would you rather risk your life every time you swim/bath/cross the river?

How much eco-modification is 'good' and how much is 'bad'?

When we fuck enough stuff up, then the population will decline until such point as we can start fucking it up again. This cycle occurs with all species.


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14449853 - 05/14/11 07:06 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Small orbiting planetary bodies gotsta stick together.




They do?  How do they keep their orbits separate then?  How do they stay so small then? How? Now? Brown? Cow?


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14449856 - 05/14/11 07:08 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Snakes, Alligators Endanger Shuttered Casinos in Poorest State

By Steve Matthews and David Mildenberg - May 12, 2011 9:01 AM PT

The entrance to Caesars Entertainment Corp.’s Harrah’s Tunica, Mississippi’s largest casino, is under seven feet of water. At the Rainbow Casino Hotel in Vicksburg, a dozen workers stacked sandbags to try to protect the building from the swollen Mississippi River.

“All these casinos and hotels along the river are going to have problems with alligators and snakes,” said Alicia Brooks, a Vicksburg retail store worker, as she watched.


Sorry, I forgot. We cannot talk about nature messing up eco-systems. My bad.


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14449866 - 05/14/11 07:13 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

the debate is about the impact humans are causing now




OK, then why are so many arguing about what may happen to humans tomorrow?

Again, is there any single species that does not damage others? Do jungle ants not eat everything in their path?

Would you rather swim in a river in which all of the alligators and crocoddiles have been killed or would you rather risk your life every time you swim/bath/cross the river?

How much eco-modification is 'good' and how much is 'bad'?

When we fuck enough stuff up, then the population will decline until such point as we can start fucking it up again. This cycle occurs with all species.




Hey crocodiles has one duhduhduhdee. 

And, the geo engineers don't know and don't care how bad they fuck up the world.  Cause they just don't.  Even David Keith the Geoengineer who was stupid enough to mention how little he cared just made a mistake by mentioning it.  He is just one example of such a scientist who wants to pawn off a destroyed earth to our children's children's childrens.  That is of course for those who had childrens in da first place.  Cause the future is now to these scientists and they just think that fucking with the earth is OK right now cause that's what their bosses said to do.  And it must be fun look at all the fucked up weather etc.  Weather forecasting is at an all time low.


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14449869 - 05/14/11 07:15 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

the debate is about the impact humans are causing now




OK, then why are so many arguing about what may happen to humans tomorrow?

Again, is there any single species that does not damage others? Do jungle ants not eat everything in their path?

Would you rather swim in a river in which all of the alligators and crocoddiles have been killed or would you rather risk your life every time you swim/bath/cross the river?

How much eco-modification is 'good' and how much is 'bad'?

When we fuck enough stuff up, then the population will decline until such point as we can start fucking it up again. This cycle occurs with all species.




The alligator analogy doesn't make any sense.  We are not changing ecosystems because they are a danger to us, we are changing them just as a result of our activities.  They are not posing some threat to us.  I don't really understand your analogy at all.

Of course animals kill each other and any organism that can utilize free energy the best will take over.  BUT the point being made is no other species has ever reached this scale (and thus had so much effect on ALL other species, not just those in its own niche).  Furthermore, humans, unlike any other species on earth has the foresight and ability to avoid or at least mitigate these extinctions.

And with this foresight we can see that these happenings are endangering our future, so why not do something.

We could change our methods to be less damaging to ourselves and nature, why should we not?


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #14449875 - 05/14/11 07:17 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I don't know about this Keith dude, but I do know you live in a house and kill the ants and other critters that wander inside. I also know that you drink unnecessary beer (less land for real crops) and smokes da herb which pollutes the environment.

Microcosm -> macrocosm.


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14449879 - 05/14/11 07:19 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Snakes, Alligators Endanger Shuttered Casinos in Poorest State

By Steve Matthews and David Mildenberg - May 12, 2011 9:01 AM PT

The entrance to Caesars Entertainment Corp.’s Harrah’s Tunica, Mississippi’s largest casino, is under seven feet of water. At the Rainbow Casino Hotel in Vicksburg, a dozen workers stacked sandbags to try to protect the building from the swollen Mississippi River.

“All these casinos and hotels along the river are going to have problems with alligators and snakes,” said Alicia Brooks, a Vicksburg retail store worker, as she watched.


Sorry, I forgot. We cannot talk about nature messing up eco-systems. My bad.




What's bad is you think that is nature creating all of that.  Wake up and smell that HAARP coffee.  It's a little bitter but it is Strong...


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Cannashroom]
    #14449882 - 05/14/11 07:20 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

We are not changing ecosystems because they are a danger to us




We don't? Do you live in a house to protect you from the elements? Does your house negatively affect the co-system where it is located? Do you let pests in your house?


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #14449885 - 05/14/11 07:21 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Had some Harp beer on St. Patties...


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #14449901 - 05/14/11 07:27 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

OC are you trying to say that because nature fucks up ecosystems humans should be able to do what ever the fuck they please no matter what the consequence to ecosystems?


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Cannashroom]
    #14449907 - 05/14/11 07:28 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I asked YOU if you PERSONALLY fuck up the environment.

A YES or NO would suffice.


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14449909 - 05/14/11 07:29 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

We are not changing ecosystems because they are a danger to us




We don't? Do you live in a house to protect you from the elements? Does your house negatively affect the co-system where it is located? Do you let pests in your house?




Of course there is going to be unavoidable consequences of living.  We are going to remove habitats for living and growing, but we can do much more than we are now to make them less damaging.  I am not saying we need to give up civilization, just plan it out to work with nature better.


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14449913 - 05/14/11 07:31 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I asked YOU if you PERSONALLY fuck up the environment.

A YES or NO would suffice.




Of course I do.  But I try to minimize it and not do it gratuitously.  It is about minimizing our consequences, not removing them.


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Cannashroom]
    #14449916 - 05/14/11 07:33 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Great, so you are FUCKING UP the environment to make yourself comfortable, but want EVERYONE ELSE to do better.

Got it.


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Cannashroom]
    #14449926 - 05/14/11 07:37 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

You want electricity as long as we don't burn any coal, or build dangerous nuclear power plants or damn up rivers - is that correct?

You buy food and goods transported from hundreds to thousands of miles away, but don't like air pollution - is that correct?


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14449963 - 05/14/11 07:55 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
You want electricity as long as we don't burn any coal, or build dangerous nuclear power plants or damn up rivers - is that correct?

You buy food and goods transported from hundreds to thousands of miles away, but don't like air pollution - is that correct?




I never said that people shouldn't have basic amenities.  And I acknowledged the fact that it is going to cause damage to the environment.  I am a proponent of nuclear (as long as it is not built in geologically precarious places...) and hydroelectric power.  I think that coal power plants could be helped immensely by pumping the exhaust through algae as is done some places in Europe to clean out pollution and reduce CO2 by 90%.  As I said it is about planning and adapting to the situation we have right now.

As for food, I try not to buy much imported produce (I like bananas, I admit) mostly I buy local produce in the summer and local meat/dairy/local frozen produce in the winter.  I also don't consume cereal grains which are imported long distances and require huge oil imputs.

People are going to need to live and eat, and we will damage the environment doing this.  However the focus on materialism and consumerism is not needed, and very damaging to the environment.  I think people need to change their attitudes, I think people are way too materialistic, and this is causing so much damage to the planet.

I respect your need to provide food and shelter to you and your family, even if it is comprising to the environment.  However, I don't believe anyone has the right to destroy the environment for their own material gain.  Furthermore, we can work as a society to reduce the impact feeding and sheltering ourselves has.


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Cannashroom]
    #14449990 - 05/14/11 08:01 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

However, I don't believe anyone has the right to destroy the environment for their own material gain. 




Huh? Once again you do not make sense. Those things you discussed are ALL materials. Your computer is a material. Food is a material. Habitat is a material. Clothes are material. Transportataion etc. etc.

I cannot follow your fuzzy and arbitrary guidelines - nor do I think you do either. Same for Moonshoe.


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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14450042 - 05/14/11 08:28 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

That was a poor way to phrase it I guess, but I think you got my point but chose to argue semantics instead.

I'm not trying to say people should have no material possessions but the focus of our society should be changed from personal gain in terms of money, land, items, etc to helping each other.  I don't believe the resources of this planet belong to anyone, they should be used to help everyone not make profits for a select few, while destroying the environment (and chance to be comfortable) of many others.


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"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein


Edited by Cannashroom (05/14/11 08:30 AM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Cannashroom]
    #14451312 - 05/14/11 01:14 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

How does your belief that people should act a certain way effect reality?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: DieCommie]
    #14451432 - 05/14/11 01:39 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

A changed ecosystem is not a destroyed ecosystem.

This is a point I try to make often but tree-huggers seem to miss.

One consequence of a warmer Earth and more CO2 is more vegetation growing in the Earth's forests and oceans. Since plants are more or less at the bottom of the food chain, more plants means more and better-fed animals who have less of a struggle to stay alive.

So, while global warming might be bad for ONE species on Earth that likes to build cities near the ocean, many (most?) other species actually benefits from global warming and the abundance of vegetation it brings about.

It amazingly arrogant to presume that the best ecology for humans is the best ecology for everything else that lives on Earth.

There have been mass extinctions through out earth's history - and yet the ecosystem still exists.

And five REALLY BIG ones that wiped out as many as 70% of all species. Yet here were are again. The Earth is not a shrinking violet. It's 5 billion years old to our 100 thousand, and if history is any guide, it will probably still be here long after we're gone.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Diploid]
    #14451609 - 05/14/11 02:18 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I vote for the Earth as a new moderator.


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OfflineArticulate
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14453286 - 05/14/11 08:11 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Would you say that we can at least know that we are using the resources of the planet at a rate faster then it can regenerate?




OK. Name one species that does NOT have cycles of expansion and contraction.



Please name one non-human species that flies f-16s around and drops bombs on various parts of the earth. or one non-human species that has gone through a civil war. or even just one non-human species that drives a car and burns gas all through the day and or night. Please..? how are you finding it legitimate to compare the effects on nature of beings with little to no intellectual capabilities to the effects humans have? that's not even a valid argument because they're not comparable. "Crocodiles have breached the casino! call in the air force!" lol. no. incomparable. were you taught as a kid to take care of and cherish the things that are yours or destroy them? and nature damaging itself as an argument? that's like arguing that i need to fix my act for  falling of my own accord and breaking a bone. now let's compare if one were to beat the living shit out of someone else and break one of their bones. you can see what i'm getting at. not comparable, once again. humans ABUSE technology in this day and age and it has become extremely detrimental in more than a few ways. too many people have no respect for anything and only think inwardly about there wants. well i'll tell you what, eventually it'll come down to people's needs over wants. and many won't know how to obtain survival essentials after putting their cars, computers, toasters and bullshit first for so long. and one more question from one intelligent person to another- is it smarter for us as humans to advance in eco-efficient ways or to advance in a destructive path like the world will end tomorrow because of something unpredictable? i'm a gambling man and seeing as the earth has seen quite a few days thus far i'm pretty sure it's an extremely bad bet to wager it will end tomorrow. if you can actually sufficently answer these questions without disregarding them and asking your own ridiculously unreal objections instead, orgone, you would be a legend.


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OfflineHeffy
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Articulate]
    #14488796 - 05/21/11 08:41 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Sometimes OG tries so hard to (pretend to) not understand.

It's pretty sad.


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I am the king of Rome, and above grammar! - Emperor Sigismund


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Heffy]
    #14489997 - 05/21/11 03:00 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Sometimes you try so hard to (pretend to) understand.


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Offlineauxiliary
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: xFrockx]
    #14490079 - 05/21/11 03:13 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Sometimes you try so hard to (pretend to) understand.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Cannashroom]
    #14490463 - 05/21/11 04:40 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cannashroom said:
That was a poor way to phrase it I guess, but I think you got my point but chose to argue semantics instead.




Your supiscions are not relevant.

I didn't undersatnd what you were trying to say anyways, and if you cannot express yourself and say what you do not mean, then the problem is not the reader.


Quote:


I'm not trying to say people should have no material possessions but the focus of our society should be changed from personal gain in terms of money, land, items, etc to helping each other.




So what?  Your bare conclusions with no basis seems to have nothing to do with the thesis Orgone questioned.  This seems like more equivocation- the only similar factor is the vague emotional congruence with some of your prior claims.



 
Quote:

I don't believe the resources of this planet belong to anyone, they should be used to help everyone not make profits for a select few, while destroying the environment (and chance to be comfortable) of many others.




What does your belief have to do with anything?  Nobody has any difficulty understanding what you believe, the issue is identifying and philosophical basis for the numerous claims you've made.

Now you advance abandoning property and capitalism but fail to provide any inkling of how that would be done or on what grounds you have to do so, even if it could be connected to anything relevant in the discussion.

How exactly is your prior position where you claim you are not trying to say people should have no material possesions consistant with this claim where you say you believe resources should not belong to a few but should belong to anyone (presumably everyone)?  Unless you are defining resource or the concept of ownership arbitrarily as is convieniant your position seems clearly inconsistant.  The whole concept of ownership is the ability to exclude others from the resource and direct its disposition.  If the resource in question is yours, but everyone can have it, then it is not yours.
\


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: johnm214]
    #14490533 - 05/21/11 05:00 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Stop trying to make sense! :hissyfit:


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Invisible1983
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14490543 - 05/21/11 05:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I really don't see why humans should care if they are able to live on the earth because the earth will go on without us.


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: 1983]
    #14494644 - 05/22/11 03:49 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

1983 said:
I really don't see why humans should care if they are able to live on the earth because the earth will go on without us.




i care about living in harmony with our ecosystem and ensuring the survival of our species.

i'm sure there's b/s on both sides of the environmental issue, to a point, but we should be concerned with what we're doing to, for example, the amazon. the amazon basin is basically the world's medicine cabinet. definitely better places for soy bean farms than there.

i personally think the greatest struggle for humanity will be getting into a post scarcity, post capitalist, post war society without a) making our planet uninhabitable or b) killing ourselves off in the process. i'm not saying that there will be a day where humanity will not have any problems, but scarcity, capitalism and war will some day exist only in history books.


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: millzy]
    #14495615 - 05/22/11 07:13 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
Quote:

1983 said:
I really don't see why humans should care if they are able to live on the earth because the earth will go on without us.




i care about living in harmony with our ecosystem and ensuring the survival of our species.

i'm sure there's b/s on both sides of the environmental issue, to a point, but we should be concerned with what we're doing to, for example, the amazon. the amazon basin is basically the world's medicine cabinet. definitely better places for soy bean farms than there.

i personally think the greatest struggle for humanity will be getting into a post scarcity, post capitalist, post war society without a) making our planet uninhabitable or b) killing ourselves off in the process. i'm not saying that there will be a day where humanity will not have any problems, but scarcity, capitalism and war will some day exist only in history books.





There is no difficulty in understanding what people believe, but rather difficulty in understanding any philosophical basis for the arguments that this is required or advisable behavior.  Some have gone so far to suggest we dismantle the entire economy and eliminate freedom of commerce.  These authoritarian measures are not buttressed by someone's belief, but require some persuasive argument.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: 1983]
    #14496233 - 05/22/11 09:17 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

1983 said:
I really don't see why humans should care if they are able to live on the earth because the earth will go on without us.




Like Celine Dion's heart?


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