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OfflineJordan Black
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Registered: 05/09/11
Posts: 59
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14446422 - 05/13/11 04:26 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

There is absolutely no question that the world is in really rough shape, by any scientific or ecological measure you care to employ.

There is absolutely no doubt that this situation is the result of short-sighted and incredibly destructive human practices such as clear-cutting and bottom trawling.

And if we have any concern for future generations, non-human animals, or the long term well being of society, than we obviously need to do something about this situation before it gets totally out of our control.

That, to me, is the important point here, and it seems like some of you are dead set on ignoring it in favor of niggling details, wordgames and petty arguments.

You guys keep talking about how this is a "debate forum" but the truth is there isnt really anything to debate. The ecological crisis is real, and you need to resort to some pretty flimsy tactics to even form an argument around something so obvious and self evident.

I get it though. You guys are here because you enjoy arguing for its own sake. It is fun to argue.

Hopefully as a species we can perform better than the trolls and nitpickers on this forum, though, otherwise we are FUCKED.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14446439 - 05/13/11 04:29 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Looks like unsubstantiated fear mongering to me.  You make a lot of claims about certainty, with no support at all. 

There is no such things as scientific or ecological measures of the world being in 'tough shape'.  That is a purely nonobjective judgement call on your part.  There is no way the earth 'should' be, there is no such thing as 'destruction' without appealing to your own personal wants and desires.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14446452 - 05/13/11 04:32 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

There is absolutely no question that the world is in really rough shape, by any scientific or ecological measure you care to employ.




'There is absolutely no question' is not an argument. Can't even give you a nice try.

Quote:

There is absolutely no doubt that this situation is the result of short-sighted and incredibly destructive human practices such as clear-cutting and bottom trawling.



'There is absolutely no doubt' is not an argument either.

Quote:

and you need to resort to some pretty flimsy tactics to even form an argument around something so obvious and self evident.



'Obvious and self-evident' are not arguments either. This is getting stale.

When you want to go before Congress or write an article for Time magazine or Mother Earth News or start your own blog, you will have to have THE DISCIPLINE AND UNDERSTANDING of how to present your case.

Disgust and rage and shoulds will not cut it. So far I am waiting for you to stop whining and make a single salient point.


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (05/13/11 04:39 PM)


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OfflineJordan Black
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Registered: 05/09/11
Posts: 59
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: DieCommie]
    #14446476 - 05/13/11 04:36 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"there is no such things as scientific or ecological measures of the world being in 'tough shape'."

:rofl2:

http://wwf.panda.org/about_our_earth/all_publications/living_planet_report/

Download the report if you want to find out how wrong you are


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OfflineJordan Black
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Registered: 05/09/11
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Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14446500 - 05/13/11 04:40 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"So far I am waiting for you to stop whining and make a single salient point"

To tell you the truth I was thinking the same thing about you!

just goes to show I guess :grin:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14446509 - 05/13/11 04:41 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Another :failboat:

Linking a website is not an argument.


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OfflineJordan Black
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Registered: 05/09/11
Posts: 59
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14446520 - 05/13/11 04:43 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

No its not an argument. But it is a link to the most comprehensive existing set of scientific data on the current state of the world's ecological health, which, if you would take the time to read it, would put to rest any doubts you might have about how dire the situation is.

You criticize me for making unsubstantiated claims, and then you scoff when I point you in the direction of the relevant data.

because you aren't interested in knowing the truth or the science, you just want to take snarky little pot shots.

Fine with me. But if you want to learn something about the state of the Earth, read the report, then get back to me when you actually know something.

:thumbup:


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Invisiblehelix
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14446530 - 05/13/11 04:45 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
There is no such things as scientific or ecological measures of the world being in 'tough shape'.  That is a purely nonobjective judgement call on your part.  There is no way the earth 'should' be, there is no such thing as 'destruction' without appealing to your own personal wants and desires.





So let's assume that there's no way to know whether or not we are actually capable of "destroying" the planet. Would you say that we can at least know that we are using the resources of the planet at a rate faster then it can regenerate? If you can agree that you see that then that means that in a matter of time, if we continue in this manner, we will run out of resources and our species will die out ala' tragedy of the commons. So let's forget about "saving the planet," what about preserving the lifespan of our species? Would you agree that there's objective evidence for the needs for that at least?


Edited by helix (05/13/11 04:47 PM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14446538 - 05/13/11 04:47 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

because you aren't interested in knowing the truth or the science, you just want to take snarky little pot shots.




No, I am trying to direct you how to play the game here (and elsewhere) as I already stated. Words have power - if you know how to use them.

Pick one small single point (not a meandering mish-mash)and build a strong case to convince us - IN YOUR WORDS. It really is that simple.


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OfflineJordan Black
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Registered: 05/09/11
Posts: 59
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: helix]
    #14446547 - 05/13/11 04:48 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Exactly. Everyone gets caught up on these abstract issues of whether or not we can in some absolute sense "kill the planet" and ignores the tangible realities of pollution, resource depletion, collapsed fish stocks, climate change, air borne particulates causing lung cancer, reduced air quality, increasing climate related natural disasters and massive species extinction.

Whatever it takes to let them sleep at night.

Good comments on this thread aronf13, you have been a lonely voice of reason.


Edited by Jordan Black (05/13/11 04:48 PM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: helix]
    #14446550 - 05/13/11 04:48 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Would you say that we can at least know that we are using the resources of the planet at a rate faster then it can regenerate?




OK. Name one species that does NOT have cycles of expansion and contraction.


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OfflineJordan Black
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Registered: 05/09/11
Posts: 59
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #14446563 - 05/13/11 04:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

if you have one hundred potatos in a bag, and every day you get one new potato, and you eat ten potatos a day, how long until you starve to death?

Not too fucking long.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14446575 - 05/13/11 04:54 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

OK, I give up on you. :rolleyes:


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (05/13/11 05:07 PM)


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OfflineJordan Black
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Registered: 05/09/11
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #14446599 - 05/13/11 05:01 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

so... I win???

:cheer:

Hurray!!!


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14446641 - 05/13/11 05:10 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

No. It merely means I will no longer try to help you. It is like when I beat a young up and comer 15-2 in racquetball and tried to point out his weaknesses and he barked at me. It was not my loss that he refused free insight, now was it?

You have been here for days and know more about this forum than someone who has been here over 12 years, is that it?

I guess that is a 'win'. Carry on.


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OfflineJordan Black
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Registered: 05/09/11
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Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #14446744 - 05/13/11 05:27 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Ahhh yes, the "argument from seniority" . Another classic.

(im trying on your style now)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Jordan Black] * 2
    #14446775 - 05/13/11 05:33 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Good point except I made no argument. Nice to see you read a little, but you have to know when to apply a fallacy.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14447683 - 05/13/11 08:24 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
All I am arguing is that we should use that faculty and prevent a disaster before it happens, by checking our consumption and reproduction, for our own sake and the sake of future generations.




Either that or turn off the HAARP machine.  New Madrid a comin' round the bend.  Let the water go now!

Oh and hey Moon long time...


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #14448149 - 05/13/11 09:35 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Small orbiting planetary bodies gotsta stick together.


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OfflineCannashroom
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14449777 - 05/14/11 06:25 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Would you say that we can at least know that we are using the resources of the planet at a rate faster then it can regenerate?




OK. Name one species that does NOT have cycles of expansion and contraction.




"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function."

-Albert Allen Bartlett

As for death of ecosystem, I have a single link to end this shit:

Dead Zone

Areas of depleted oxygen in which no marine life can live.  Can be of natural or human causes.

We can effectively kill entire ecosystems because of our activity.


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein


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