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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14444398 - 05/13/11 09:07 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

"There is nothing I can say that will convince people who refuse to believe they have a responsibility to protect, preserve and care for the planet."




Responsibility? How do you know what our responsibilities are in life? Here's a hint: You don't.


We don't even have the responsibility to not shit where we eat. If we chose to, there is no greater consequence to doing so. You might eat shit if you shit where you eat, but it is what it is.

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: xFrockx]
    #14444459 - 05/13/11 09:27 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

If you have decided that you have no morality, no ethics, no sense of justice, no belief in right or wrong, that is your own perogative, and as far as I know no one has yet come up with a philosophical argument that can convince you otherwise.

The rest of us who believe that there are some things worth fighting for, and some things that should not be done, will have to go on without your help.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14444732 - 05/13/11 10:31 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I'm on Moonshoe's side.
It's the first time in history, that there's a species with so much power over and impact on their environment. This demands responsibility. That's why (and how) our 'intelligence' developed. To use this responsibility to not destroy ourself and let the earth be a pleasant habitat until we found ways to populate space.
The biodiversity is a resource for future researchers to find out new dependencies and patterns in biological life in connection with its 'natural' habitat itself. The results can be used in physics, medicine, all engineering and whatever else.
By destroying it, we loose resources of knowledge for coming generations.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (05/13/11 10:43 AM)

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14444923 - 05/13/11 11:06 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

You can believe whatever you want, it just means that you believe it. Not anything more than that.

Note that I personally do not shit where I eat. I don't particularly enjoy eating shit.

Edited by xFrockx (05/13/11 11:09 AM)

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OfflineJordan Black
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14445092 - 05/13/11 11:37 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Wow. I Can't believe anyone would argue at such length about something as obvious as "we need to take care of the planet because its the only one we have".

I don't think anyone actually disagrees with that. Just arguing for its own sake.

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14445135 - 05/13/11 11:46 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

My commitment to that idea ends where we start telling people how to live. The point of life is not living, nor is the point of earth to sustain our species forever. That is a selfish ideal.

This planet could be wiped out for reasons totally unrelated to human consumption, comets, meteors, unknown, etc, that there is absolutely no point in turning this place into a place for humans to be sustained in some forced, ecologically superior way.

If you want people to be sterilized, start with yourself. If you want people to restrict their diet, start with yourself. But don't try to force these things on people who aren't you. It is not your place and there is no greater purpose behind any efforts of that kind.

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OfflineJordan Black
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: xFrockx]
    #14445167 - 05/13/11 11:55 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Messing up the planet makes no more sense than burning your own house down.

And Im not trying to "force" anything on anyone?

I thought the whole point of a forum was to share ideas and opinions?

Edit: also, what do you mean by "the point of life is not living"?

Can't get my head around that one...

Edited by Jordan Black (05/13/11 11:56 AM)

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Invisiblehelix
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: xFrockx]
    #14445221 - 05/13/11 12:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
You can believe whatever you want, it just means that you believe it. Not anything more than that.

Note that I personally do not shit where I eat. I don't particularly enjoy eating shit.




I'm on moonshine's side for this reason:

We can all believe whatever we want, but living in harmony with nature rather than against it doesn't come from any human mind, which is only one piece of the puzzle. It comes from consulting the earth. The one constant across all sciences is that Nature builds on complexity. If we're doing something that's preventing it's ability to do that, then we're not living in harmony with nature, which qualifies to me as shitting where you eat

Of course nobody's making you do anything, I agree moonshine's posts are coming off as a little preachy. Drastic situations call for drastic measures perhaps? Sadly, forcing people to do something never works, they have to come to the conclusion for themselves, but Frockx sounds like you HAVE come to the conclusion? I'm with you in that for moral reasons though, you shouldn't make anyone do anything, it's pointless, but yes, this is a debate forum

If Orgone is still interested in this thread please come back, I am quite interested more in what you think and will not post walls of texts!

Edited by helix (05/13/11 12:17 PM)

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14445252 - 05/13/11 12:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
I do not believe that this excuses us from responsibility for our actions or makes it ok to destroy the planet while we have it.


We do not have the capability to destroy our planet--we can destroy the planet's ecosystems, but that's not the same thing as destroying the planet.


Quote:

Moonshoe said:
I don't see anything selfish about being ecologically responsible.  Quite the opposite in fact.


You want to live in a healthy environment, don't you? How is there nothing selfish about that? :undecided:


Quote:

Moonshoe said:
"The species that can adapt - will. And those that cannot - won't. Biology 101."

Again, we are human beings. Our actions cannot be reduced to invariable biological laws.


Why not? Why are humans an exception?


Quote:

Moonshoe said:
"Either way, the earth cannot be harmed. "

Again, it depends how you define Earth. If you define Earth as a living system, as I do, than it can be harmed, just as we (also living systems) can be harmed.


The Earth is not a life form..the Gaia hypothesis has not been proven.


Quote:

Moonshoe said:
The earth is made of living tissues, communities and populations, just like our own bodies, and just like our bodies, if enough of those tissues, communities and populations are destroyed, the Earth (as a living system) will die.


Since the Earth is not alive, it can't die..again, though, all of its ecosystems can be destroyed.


Quote:

Moonshoe said:
If you are really having trouble understanding this, imagine if humans detonated all their nuclear weapons and vaporized the entire planet. Would you still cling to your insistence that "the Earth cannot be harmed" ?

If so, I doubt you would find many who share your view.


Many well-informed people already know that all the nukes in the world cannot vaporize the entire planet..if you have evidence which shows that it can, I'd be very interested in looking it over.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineJordan Black
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14445282 - 05/13/11 12:27 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It seems to me that moonshoe is simply saying that the living world (whether you call it "Earth" or "Earth's ecosystems") should be protected and not destroyed.

And the rest of you (mostly) are completely missing that point and niggling over silly details.

The spirit of his post is just that we should take care of our planet.

Ive read through this whole long ass thread and I am amazed at the nitpicking BS going on.

Some people would rather have a ten hour argument over phrasing and wording than do a god damn thing to make the world a better place

:puke:

Edited by Jordan Black (05/13/11 12:28 PM)

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14445296 - 05/13/11 12:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Jordan Black said:
Some people would rather have a ten hour argument over phrasing and wording than do a god damn thing to make the world a better place


This is a debate forum, not a "save-the-world" forum..if you guys don't like debating over phrasing and wording, then you don't have to post in threads where such debating is occurring. If the purpose of this thread was to spread a message about living an eco-friendly lifestyle, and not about debating a certain position on some kind of matter, then it was posted in the wrong forum.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Poid]
    #14445376 - 05/13/11 12:51 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

As I said before, My whole argument boils down to three simple points


1. Human activities are rapidly destroying the very ecosystems upon which we depend for survival
2. We have the ability to understand this and to change it
3. Therefore, we should.

If anyone actually disagrees with any of these points, I would be interested to hear why. The rest, as far as I am concerned, is beside the point.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14445427 - 05/13/11 01:04 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I disagree with number 1 and 2.  I don't think humans are destroying the ecosysystem, and I am highly skeptical as to our ability to understand and change it.

A changed ecosystem is not a destroyed ecosystem.

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: DieCommie]
    #14445455 - 05/13/11 01:10 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Well, all I can say is that if you don't think humans are destroying ecosystems, your opinnion are at odds with every environmental scientist I have ever read, and I read environmental scholarship for a living.

If you dont define global mass extinctions as the destruction of ecosystems, how do you define it?


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.

Edited by Moonshoe (05/13/11 01:10 PM)

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Invisiblehelix
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: DieCommie]
    #14445495 - 05/13/11 01:20 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
I disagree with number 1 and 2.  I don't think humans are destroying the ecosysystem




"Habitat destruction caused by humans includes conversion of land to agriculture, urban sprawl, infrastructure development, and other anthropogenic changes to the characteristics of land. Habitat degradation, fragmentation, and pollution are aspects of habitat destruction caused by humans that do not necessarily involve overt destruction of habitat, yet result in habitat collapse. Desertification, deforestation, and coral reef degradation are specific types of habitat destruction for those areas (deserts, forests, coral reefs).
Geist and Lambin (2002) assessed 152 case studies of net losses of tropical forest cover to determine any patterns in the proximate and underlying causes of tropical deforestation. Their results, yielded as percentages of the case studies in which each parameter was a significant factor, provide a quantitative prioritization of which proximate and underlying causes were the most significant. The proximate causes were clustered into broad categories of agricultural expansion (96%), infrastructure expansion (72%), and wood extraction (67%). Therefore, according to this study, forest conversion to agriculture is the main land use change responsible for tropical deforestation. The specific categories reveal further insight into the specific causes of tropical deforestation: transport extension (64%), commercial wood extraction (52%), permanent cultivation (48%), cattle ranching (46%), shifting (slash and burn) cultivation (41%), subsistence agriculture (40%), and fuel wood extraction for domestic use (28%). One result is that shifting cultivation is not the primary cause of deforestation in all world regions, while transport extension (including the construction of new roads) is the largest single proximate factor responsible for deforestation."


Any natural climate changes have happened over the course of millions of years, not in the short period of time we've been seeing things happen lately

Edited by helix (05/13/11 01:20 PM)

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14445496 - 05/13/11 01:20 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Destruction of the ecosystem necessarily entails no more ecosystem.  There have been mass extinctions through out earth's history - and yet the ecosystem still exists.  This is conclusive evidence that mass extinction does not entail the destruction of the ecosystem.

Ill say again, a changed ecosystem is not a destroyed ecosystem.

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: DieCommie]
    #14445502 - 05/13/11 01:22 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

"mass extinction does not entail the destruction of the ecosystem."


Right.

And a house that has been burned to the ground is not a destroyed house.

A person who has been shot in the head is not a dead man.

:rolleyes:


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.

Edited by Moonshoe (05/13/11 01:27 PM)

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Offlineauxiliary
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: DieCommie]
    #14445528 - 05/13/11 01:26 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Well, which way would you rather have it? I don't think "we can fuck it up, but we can't kill it" is a solid argument.


--------------------

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: DieCommie]
    #14445547 - 05/13/11 01:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)



My, what a lovely ecosystem!


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: The most important struggle in history [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14445611 - 05/13/11 01:42 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:


My, what a lovely ecosystem!




Your opinion of the loveliness of an ecosystem is just that, a subjective opinion.  There is an ecosystem in that picture whether you like it or not.

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