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Offlinepsyeye
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Noobs breakdown of what, when and why principles
    #14436961 - 05/11/11 08:55 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

You guys have given so much to me in such a short time with this community that I am ready to start my own contribution. I noticed that there are so many conflicting advices throughout this forum. People all have different workflows and swear by them. It’s great but really confusing for a noob seeking direction through the search engine.

I wonder if you guys could help this noob and future noobs by adding PRINCIPLES of good mushroom growing rather than teks or workflows. Here’s some gold from what I’ve learned since joining this community about 3 weeks ago. Feel free to add, praise or slap me for any part, it’s a work in progress and I’m well aware of my noobness and hopefully as I grow so will this humble doc



Noob Principles:



First I just want to say that the most common advice I’ve seen given to noobs by experienced growers is _be patient_ they want to grow, and will, if you simply provide them with the basics.

Also, a common mistake by noobs is to hit this site and ask questions that have been asked 1000 times sound advice noobies and _USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION_

And last but certainly not least *****TELL NO ONE***** My personal philosophy is, if you can't even trust yourself not to tell anyone how can you expect the person you tell not to, or the person they tell etc... In most places Psilocybe mushroom cultivation is a serious offence and should be done uber discretely or not at all.


During printing/ syringe making/ inoculation:


• Sterile procedures are paramount. Flow hood, glove box, still air box, oven tek (many people swear against the effectiveness of this oldie), clean room etc all seem to achieve this in varying degrees


During pressure cooking:


• The longer the better seems to be the consensus, I’ve seen people saying 30 mins and others arguing that the entire contents of the jar wouldn’t sterilise properly in that time and that 2 hrs is needed. It makes simple sense that, as long as it doesn’t affect the quality of nutrients or substrate that the longer any bacteria is exposed to heat the less chance it has of surviving. General consensus seems that 30-60 for HP jars and 60-120 for anything else is effective. again, it makes sense to err on the side of caution, an extra 30 mins at the start can save you a truckload of woes later.
• Foil lids or a similar covering on your jars stop moisture from getting into the jar during pressure cooking

During colonisation:


• Bags, jars, tubs, dishes, anything that can withstand pressure cooking has been used as a colonisation container.
• Gas Exchange (GE) is needed during the colonisation phase, jars, bags etc need to breathe. for pftek, the verm layer is usually enough protection against contams and allows the myc to breathe. For grains a filter(Synthetic filter disks (SFD), polyfill, tyvek etc)is used to allow GE while protecting from contams. Any bulk substrate container must also be allowed to breathe while it is colonising
• Water is mixed with Rye grain or Wild Bird Seed or Brown Rice Flour+Vermiculite or Popcorn or a variety of other mediums are used for colonisation. These mediums are generally loosely added (not packed) into jars to make it easier for the mycelium to spread. They should ideally contain moisture but not appear moist on the surface. Too much surface moisture can stall mycelium growth which is an invitation to bacteria
• The mycelium needs to spread itself throughout the entire nutritional substrate. Many growers leave jars on shelves in a cupboard, others incubate at temperatures which have been proven as optimal for mycelium growth. Some say light is beneficial some say light is bad. All of these approaches yield results.
• Jars with cakes should be left in the incubation phase for at least a week after the outside is colonised. If they are taken out before then they will most likely not quite be 100% colonised (in the middle) and will probably sit in the fruiting chamber slowly completing the colonisation phase before they fruit.

During fruiting:


• The major pinning or fruiting triggers appear to be:
• 100% colonisation: Like any species, the mushrooms primary objective is procreation and preservation. Once the nutrients are used up in the substrate, the mycelium will send forth fruits to spread spores in an attempt to start a new growing cycle.
• Fresh Air Exchange: ***Still not sure about this*** Mushrooms need oxygen to grow, Mycelium produces Co2. In nature oxygen and/ or evaporation signals that the mycelium is reaching the surface of the ground and procreation can potentially occur so it sends forth fruits. Mycelium seeks out little pockets where evaporation is occurring and pins then fruits there
• Light: As with FAE, as the mycelium approaches the surface of the ground it sees the opportunity to procreate and will attempt to send forth fruits.
• Temperature: Fairly consistently most growers agree that a lower temperature for fruiting than colonisation is beneficial.
• Humidity: Very high humidity levels are of great benefit to growing mushrooms as it mimics their natural fruiting conditions


During Harvest:


• Mushrooms can be harvested any time but are optimal just after their veils break
• Damaging the mycelium is not helpful to the mushrooms life cycle. Using a knife to carefully cut the whole mushroom or (very) carefully twisting them out at the base will cause less damage.
• Mushrooms are best stored dry (cracker dry)


Hopefully , with the help of the many wise and experienced minds on this site, this will eventually lead to more noobs 'understanding' what they are doing rather than simply mimicking various teks blindly


Keep truckin
Psyeye


--------------------
  Noob principles thread


Edited by psyeye (05/13/11 03:25 PM)


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OfflineOneU
Registered: 03/19/11
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Re: Noobs breakdown of what, when and why principles [Re: psyeye]
    #14437015 - 05/11/11 09:05 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I didn't read it all, to be honest I scrolled to see when it ends and saw you said scissors or cutting with a knife. That is not a good way at all. Pinch the bottom and twist gently, they come off very easily and delicately. If you truly want to avoid having some verm on the bottom, I read of people who use a scalpel to get under the stem and cut it from there.

Reason for not cutting is if there is a piece of fruit left on there, after misting and allowing humidity to rise, it is the ideal place for a contaminant to grow.

Ok I just read the rest,

So high moisture isn't asking for bacteria rather a stalling of the mycellium growth which results in it not growing any longer so anything that breaks through will have no battle against germinating on the uncolonized part. If you take sterile measures, no contams will get through for quite some time (ime).

FAE has been proven by many experienced mycologists such as RR to be, indeed, the number pinning trigger. Temperature is good to get pins going (slightly high around 77) and then drop when pins have formed to allow them to take their time and form meaty mushrooms for those looking for bigger growth. Light is crucial for proper growth. 6500k-6700k is best but whatever you can find closest to those colors will give growth but not optimal.

With the colonization. Incubation is said to be a bad idea because you basically lock your jars in with non-sterile air and no airflow so it's asking for a contam. Many people make it work and some make it work very well. I incubate a whole room at times for jars when I am in a rush. On the shelf is best but you don't want to wait till pins. Sometimes pins will take months if you don't introduce the jars to light.

You want to wait until ALL of the outside is colonized, then give it a week or more (a few days more) if it's cold in their area (below 70s) to consolidate, meaning get a firm hold on the substrate. This reduces contam possibilities and allows the mushroom to be fully ready to fruit.

GOOD LUCK ON YOUR GROW :mushroom2:

:peace: :heart:


Edited by OneU (05/11/11 09:13 PM)


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Offlinepsyeye
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Re: Noobs breakdown of what, when and why principles [Re: OneU]
    #14438257 - 05/12/11 01:18 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Humble thanks for chiming in OneU, I edited incorporating your advice on colonisation moisture and time as well as harvesting. I will update the pinning/ fruiting stats after a little more research. I reckon most noobs will give their jars plenty of airflow checking them every day:P

So it looks like the bulk of my acquired principles are fairly close to correct so far. My nanna would be proud;) Anyone else wanna chime in and help out a noobie?


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  Noob principles thread


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InvisibleLuger0815
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Re: Noobs breakdown of what, when and why principles [Re: OneU]
    #14438295 - 05/12/11 01:32 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OneU said:
I didn't read it all, to be honest I scrolled to see when it ends and saw you said scissors or cutting with a knife. That is not a good way at all. Pinch the bottom and twist gently, they come off very easily and delicately. If you truly want to avoid having some verm on the bottom, I read of people who use a scalpel to get under the stem and cut it from there.

Reason for not cutting is if there is a piece of fruit left on there, after misting and allowing humidity to rise, it is the ideal place for a contaminant to grow.





Sorry OneU, but i have to disagree in that point.
Cutting the stems to harvest and leave a little piece of the stem, is not an invitation to get contams.
The stem is also just myc and will not rot.
In the case of bulk subs, pullin the stem out can cause more problems, because it will damage the myc and leave a area where there is uncovered sub. and sometimes also uncovered grains, where the contams can slip into.

And for BRF cakes i would also suggest just to twist and bend to get the fruit loose.
If this dont seem to work, cut it as low as you can without damageing the cake.

Cutting stems to harvest is the best option if you are not able to remove the fruit without damaging the bulk/cake.


Edited by Luger0815 (05/12/11 02:00 AM)


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InvisibleLuger0815
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Re: Noobs breakdown of what, when and why principles [Re: psyeye]
    #14438308 - 05/12/11 01:38 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Nice thread... :thumbup:

Quote:

psyeye said:

During printing/ syringe making/ inoculation:


• Sterile procedures are paramount. Flow hood, glove box, still air box, oven tek, clean room etc all seem to achieve this in varying degrees





A word to the Oven Tek, the thermal flow will eventually suck contams from the sides into the up-steaming airflow direct into your working area.

Some ppl. had sucess with this tek but i would scratch that from the list.:shrug:


Edited by Luger0815 (05/12/11 01:47 AM)


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OfflineW4E2E0D
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Re: Noobs breakdown of what, when and why principles [Re: Luger0815]
    #14438618 - 05/12/11 04:24 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I believe evaporation has also been found to be a pinning trigger.


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InvisibleLuger0815
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Re: Noobs breakdown of what, when and why principles [Re: W4E2E0D]
    #14438631 - 05/12/11 04:31 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

W4E2E0D said:
I believe evaporation has also been found to be a pinning trigger.




I also heard something like that.:wink:


Edited by Luger0815 (05/12/11 04:32 AM)


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OfflinePerun
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Re: Noobs breakdown of what, when and why principles [Re: W4E2E0D]
    #14438657 - 05/12/11 04:46 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

W4E2E0D said:
I believe evaporation has also been found to be a pinning trigger.




Yeah,but without FAE there is no evaporation! You need constant air flow for the evaporation to happend,so... in my opinion FAE and evaporation go under the same flag!


--------------------
First:                                                        Then:


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OfflineOneU
Registered: 03/19/11
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Re: Noobs breakdown of what, when and why principles [Re: Luger0815]
    #14439120 - 05/12/11 08:33 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Luger0815 said:
Quote:

OneU said:
I didn't read it all, to be honest I scrolled to see when it ends and saw you said scissors or cutting with a knife. That is not a good way at all. Pinch the bottom and twist gently, they come off very easily and delicately. If you truly want to avoid having some verm on the bottom, I read of people who use a scalpel to get under the stem and cut it from there.

Reason for not cutting is if there is a piece of fruit left on there, after misting and allowing humidity to rise, it is the ideal place for a contaminant to grow.





Sorry OneU, but i have to disagree in that point.
Cutting the stems to harvest and leave a little piece of the stem, is not an invitation to get contams.
The stem is also just myc and will not rot.
In the case of bulk subs, pullin the stem out can cause more problems, because it will damage the myc and leave a area where there is uncovered sub. and sometimes also uncovered grains, where the contams can slip into.

And for BRF cakes i would also suggest just to twist and bend to get the fruit loose.
If this dont seem to work, cut it as low as you can without damageing the cake.

Cutting stems to harvest is the best option if you are not able to remove the fruit without damaging the bulk/cake.



My mistake. I was very mistaken in saying this. I had a people tell me that and I just took it to heart instead of looking into it. My apologies OP, the rest is right, though, as far as I have read some trustworthy posts. This was the only one I just "passed along"

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
The piece of stem left behind doesn't rot, as falcon pointed out above. In addition, if you cut instead of pulling, you don't get dirt all over the mushrooms in your bag.  Don't forget to leave half of any mushrooms you find unpicked.  The natural process is for bugs to lay eggs in the gill tissue, which than hatch out, attracting birds and spreading the spores to new sites.  It's not just the wind that spreads spores.
RR




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OfflineOneU
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Re: Noobs breakdown of what, when and why principles [Re: OneU]
    #14439135 - 05/12/11 08:38 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

That there piece of information on rotting was no doubt wrong. Here is some clarity :crazy:

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
You'll do far less damage to the substrate by using a sharp knife to cut the stems at the base.  the 'pull and twist' method leaves divots which rarely re-colonize, leaving it prone to contamination.

Just to cut off at the pass those who will say the stumps left over will rot or something, they don't.
RR



Quote:

afrosheen said:
I'm gonna side with RR on this one. One of my tubs is on its second flush, and I left huge craters from the first harvest. The craters have exposed spawn and it worried me to see it like that for a few days. Needless to say, exposed spawn invites contams and won't produce fruit bodies.

Next harvest it's knife and scissors time.




And someone posting on the contrary side like always with everything, and it works:

Quote:

m00nshine said:
Yes, but they turn black and gross. I prefer having
my sub clean of that kind of stuff. If you're careful
you won't leave large craters.




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InvisibleTranscendingLife
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Re: Noobs breakdown of what, when and why principles [Re: OneU]
    #14439294 - 05/12/11 09:31 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

noob principles: patients & UTSF

During printing...: drop the oven thing...it's just old info. & I think "clean room" is an understood thing.

Pressure cooking: LCs - 35 minutes, grain jars (PF tek jars) - 90-120, bags - 1 hour per bag. Also, PCing grains for those times does NOT produce 100% sterile grains. We're just giving our mushis a better chance to take hold of the grains than contams. If we were to PC grains to 100% sterilization, they'd be mush & not usable.

During colonization: Light is good @ all times of growth for mushis. I keep my jars, agar dishes, LCs, colonizing bulk, etc. on a 12/12 schedule w/ a 6500K light

During fruiting: #1 pinning trigger, hands down, is evaporating moisture from the substrate. Fanning is what helps w/ this. Also, a pinning strategy is high CO2 colonization. I've also read where RR states that contams in your cakes/bulk are good pinning triggers too, because once the myc hits that contam barrier it'll start fruiting. Obviously, don't go around shooting up your cakes/bulk w/ bacteria or mold. It's just something to keep in mind.

Picking: cut them or twist & pull. I Twist & Pull, but cleaning off the verm, grain & coir is a PITA even though I do it once they're dry w/ a toothbrush...

Also, you don't really have any times in there for your "when" portion of it. You may want to give a few general times for colonization etc...


--------------------
AMU: We Quickly Answer Questions Here
"One must accept the probability of failure to experience the elation of success." - TranscendingLife
“A man of genius makes no mistakes; his errors are volitional and are the portals of discovery.” - James Joyce
:sporedrop::sporedrop::mushroomgrow::sporedrop::sporedrop::wow:How I Do EVERYTHING:wow::sporedrop::sporedrop::mushroomgrow::sporedrop::sporedrop:
"Your vision will become clear only when you can look into your own heart…. Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes."- Carl Jung
"Anything that can be done chemically can be done by other means."- William S. Burroughs
"You are as dead now as you will ever be" - Seth


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Offlinepsyeye
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Re: Noobs breakdown of what, when and why principles [Re: TranscendingLife]
    #14440598 - 05/12/11 03:02 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Luger0815, thanks bro, I updated oven tek, and FAE with evap. I think the harvest section is still ok as it does mention both methods and that care needs to be taken

W4E2E0D, cheers mate, updated FAE with evap

Perun, LYW, as advised FAE and evap are living together in harmony. I think I need to work on the wording tho

OneU, Thanks mate, your input and homework is really contributing to this little doc

todlow, UTSF added :cheers: PC stats updated, light debate during colonisation added and evap added... I'm still on the wishful side of my first pinning here so I don't have too much info on when yet but I will do some further research and get some estimates down. Gold contribution bro, much respect due

This is already proving to be a better little compendium than I could have hoped for in such a short time. Much respect to all for your input...  :awesomenod:


--------------------
  Noob principles thread


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Offlinepsyeye
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Re: Noobs breakdown of what, when and why principles [Re: psyeye]
    #14445940 - 05/13/11 02:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Added this

Gas Exchange (GE) is needed during the colonisation phase, jars, bags etc need to breathe. for pftek, the verm layer is usually enough protection against contams and allows the myc to breathe. For grains a filter(polyfill, tyvek etc)is used to allow GE while protecting from contams


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InvisibleTranscendingLife
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Re: Noobs breakdown of what, when and why principles [Re: psyeye]
    #14445966 - 05/13/11 02:58 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

psyeye said:
Added this

Gas Exchange (GE) is needed during the colonisation phase, jars, bags etc need to breathe. for pftek, the verm layer is usually enough protection against contams and allows the myc to breathe. For grains a filter(polyfill, tyvek etc)is used to allow GE while protecting from contams



SFD = :winning1: @ all times for GE...:2cents: Also, colonizing bulk needs GE also...

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

To what degree do we restrict GE during Bulk Colonization?



To the degree necessary to hold CO2 in the neighborhood of 10K to 20K ppm.  You can get a CO2 meter for under $300.
RR




From this thread https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14051259#14051259


--------------------
AMU: We Quickly Answer Questions Here
"One must accept the probability of failure to experience the elation of success." - TranscendingLife
“A man of genius makes no mistakes; his errors are volitional and are the portals of discovery.” - James Joyce
:sporedrop::sporedrop::mushroomgrow::sporedrop::sporedrop::wow:How I Do EVERYTHING:wow::sporedrop::sporedrop::mushroomgrow::sporedrop::sporedrop:
"Your vision will become clear only when you can look into your own heart…. Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes."- Carl Jung
"Anything that can be done chemically can be done by other means."- William S. Burroughs
"You are as dead now as you will ever be" - Seth


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OfflineValknut
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Re: Noobs breakdown of what, when and why principles [Re: psyeye]
    #14446027 - 05/13/11 03:15 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

psyeye said:
PRINCIPLES of good mushroom growing





Yah I got one psyeye that has been uttered here many times before... and I'll share it before some one else mentions it...


******TELL NO ONE******

There are many variations on the above #1 principle, but I wrote it out as I believe the community would want me to.


--------------------

No pants! Strike Witches


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Offlinepsyeye
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Re: Noobs breakdown of what, when and why principles [Re: Valknut]
    #14446086 - 05/13/11 03:27 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks again Todlow, added sfd and bulk :cheers:

Quote:

Valknut said:

******TELL NO ONE******






A lesson unfortunately often learned the hard way... Added, thanks Valknut


--------------------
  Noob principles thread


Edited by psyeye (05/13/11 03:30 PM)


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