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OfflineComradez
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What does a psychedelic culture look like?
    #14436897 - 05/11/11 08:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

This morning, I woke up, felt a strange rare impulse to watch bollywood videos on youtube, and realized:

This is what a mature psychedelic culture looks like!!!


If we had large communities with 3+ generations steeped in psychedelics or psychedelic insights, this is a scene that we might conceivably be able to recreate in America. 

What makes this a psychedelic culture?
*The vibrant color
*The sensuality (the embrace of the human body, and not the fear or estrangement from its primal capabilities (such as wild dancing, or sex) that you find in the West.
*Them not taking themselves seriously.  You have to disregard your ego in order to dance that silly.  There's a certain innocence to Bollywood dancing, just as there is a certain youthful innocence that emerges in psychedelic interactions.
*The communal, yet diverse and tolerant social interactions.  There's no coincidence about the fact that India instantly became a formal multi-party democracy upon independence, instead of some autocratic, Leader-worshiping nightmare like China.  (Both were, by the way, at around the same level of economic development, so that had nothing to do with it.  I insist that there can be fundamental differences in human cultures depending on the histories that shaped them-differences that can be quite lasting.  This "essentialist" view is not popular in post-modern academia nowadays, but I think China vs. India provide an obvious counter-example).

One theme I find interesting in Bollywood films is the recurring plot device of two men trying to woo the same woman.  In the end, the woman chooses one of the men, but the two men, far from being bitter or jealous towards one another, come to respect and love one another through their familiarity.  These are the sorts of possibilities that open up in society when you don't let the ego get in the way.
http://youtu.be/g6KMhL5zqWQ
http://youtu.be/ApDqWuRBoLQ

Just from looking at these Bollywood films, you can tell that India is a culture with previous historical engagement with psychedelics and psychedelic insights (via cannabis, "soma" (whatever that exactly was), and Buddhism). 

The two biggest countries in the world today are India and China.  Both have over 1.3 billion people. 

Here's my crude, over-simplified assessment of what Chinese culture has to offer to the future of humanity in comparison:


*Drab dull-grey uniforms
*Estrangement from the body.  You can see, with the more affluent Chinese in that crowd, that they are starting to get overweight and pug-ugly like a lot of Americans.  And I guarantee you will not find dancing like you find in that Indian song "Kajira re" (linked above) in any product of Chinese culture. 
*Glorification of the Great Leader's ego.  Taking one person WAAAAY too seriously as if he were some sort of God.  And then taking yourself too seriously as someone who follows that God.
*Communal, but Confucian and conformist, with an emphasis on material achievement, much like the Protestant work-ethic in the West.

At least the West has SOME historical engagement with psychedelics (Ancient Greece, the mystery religions of the Roman World, early Christianity (possibly), cannabis-inspired perspectives borrowed from Medieval Islam, and most recently, the '60s counter-culture onwards).  Compared to China, the West appears as a beacon of hope.  Chinese leadership of the world is the absolute WORST thing that could befall humanity at this point. 

Of course, China consistently has more "economic growth" than India.  I don't think that's any coincidence.  But does more economic growth mean a better life? 

Let me ask you:  would you rather be dancing at an Indian wedding, or hailing the Great Leader in dull-grey uniforms in a huge state-mandated parade?  I'd give all the economic conveniences in the world to be able to choose the former over the latter.

Plus, all that economic growth that China is pursuing so very well is just screwing our planet in the long run.  Give me some cannabis and an Indian wedding over a 2000-pound vehicular status symbol and a 5000 sq ft McMansion any day!

Here's hoping that India's 1.3 billion people do more to influence the future of humanity than China's.  Maybe one day, this will be the America we wake up to:  a country that doesn't take itself so seriously, and where people have fun with life rather than try to accumulate the most toys to protect their statuses and fragile egos.
http://youtu.be/Z6pUY1_jZec


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They say that life's a carousel / Spinning fast, you've got to ride it well / The world is full of kings and queens / Who blind your eyes and steal your dreams / It's heaven and hell - Ronnie James Dio (RIP) :headbanger:

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Offlinegabbaganchi
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Re: What does a psychedelic culture look like? [Re: Comradez]
    #14436987 - 05/11/11 09:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:congrats::congrats::congrats:
i. fucking. love. cannabis.
India for the windia


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:sanpedro: :peyote: :tripmolecule:

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OfflineZzzarathustra
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Re: What does a psychedelic culture look like? [Re: gabbaganchi]
    #14437285 - 05/11/11 09:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

you're oversimplifying everything plus picking and choosing which facts to present to fit your conclusion better but overall I agree
India > China

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Invisibledrr
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Re: What does a psychedelic culture look like? [Re: Zzzarathustra]
    #14437337 - 05/11/11 09:55 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

How could they be tripping and singing that horrible music at the same time

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OfflineComradez
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Re: What does a psychedelic culture look like? [Re: drr]
    #14437496 - 05/11/11 10:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I agree that I am picking and choosing and oversimplifying.  There are, after all, Indian physics students who bust their balls, and once upon a time there were Chinese opium dens, so clearly things can go back and forth.  But are there not certain common threads that run through different cultures?  One, of course, is Confucianism in China, which I absolutely abhor.  There's the caste system in India, too, which is obviously not good.  Yes, the situation is quite complicated. 

Also, I'm not implying that Indians currently trip in great numbers.  What I'm saying is, their culture has a history of engagement with tripping and with states approaching tripping (meditation), such that some of the unspoken lessons might have gotten ingrained in the culture.  This is, I suppose, an hypothesis.


--------------------

They say that life's a carousel / Spinning fast, you've got to ride it well / The world is full of kings and queens / Who blind your eyes and steal your dreams / It's heaven and hell - Ronnie James Dio (RIP) :headbanger:

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OfflineWooden Spoon
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Re: What does a psychedelic culture look like? [Re: drr]
    #14437513 - 05/11/11 10:21 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Ithink psychedelic cultur would look more like this video below because IT IS psychedelic culter
(australia bush doofs, bascially a gathering of hippies and alternitive people camp and awsome DJs pump psytrance 24/7 for entire week ends in the bush/forest)


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OfflineComradez
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Re: What does a psychedelic culture look like? [Re: Wooden Spoon]
    #14437558 - 05/11/11 10:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

To me, that looks like a psychedelic *subculture*, not a mature psychedelic culture.  Where are the middle-aged and elderly?  Where are the entire families sharing psychedelia and integrating it into a functioning lifestyle?  What does it look like when these people are working?  Having weddings?  Having funerals?  Birthday parties for the kids?  Think of all of the rituals that a full-fledged culture elaborates.  Do these people have psychedelic versions of all of these rituals?  No, they probably retreat into their subculture for rare gatherings like that, and then the rest of the time they are interacting with a dominant culture of straights that probably includes their parents, a lot of their friends and co-workers, their bosses, their politicians, their scholars...what I'm asking is, what does it look like when all of that turns psychedelic?

Edit:  Of course, the answer I'm suggesting is, if not something exactly like India, then at least something closer to India (and farther from China) than anything else on the Earth today.

Edit:  I'm also, for the moment, discounting the obviously psychedelic Amazonian cultures because they don't have 1.3 billion people. I'm talking about major world cultures.


--------------------

They say that life's a carousel / Spinning fast, you've got to ride it well / The world is full of kings and queens / Who blind your eyes and steal your dreams / It's heaven and hell - Ronnie James Dio (RIP) :headbanger:

Edited by Comradez (05/11/11 10:40 PM)

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OfflineWooden Spoon
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Re: What does a psychedelic culture look like? [Re: Comradez]
    #14437659 - 05/11/11 10:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

well, its the most pychedleic culter we have got on earth today so .... :glittershitz:

and infact i do see quite a few old folk at doofs

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InvisibleAustrip
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Re: What does a psychedelic culture look like? [Re: Comradez]
    #14437674 - 05/11/11 10:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

lol so much generalization going on in this thread.

Where are all these indian families sharing their psychedelic culture through out the ages? No  disrespect intended but all the Indian families I know aren't psychedelic in the least bit.

Bollywood films psychedelic? :rofl2:

and no our Australian psychedelic culture is not full fledged as a whole society, but there are plenty of elderly hippies still gathering together with the younglings to pass on knowledge and even come along for the ride.
You've got to remember that our country was only founded a few hundred years back as well so our culture is obviously not as ancient as india or china's is.

Stop assuming and generalizing so much.


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Invisibledrr
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Re: What does a psychedelic culture look like? [Re: Comradez]
    #14437699 - 05/11/11 10:47 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Comradez said:
To me, that looks like a psychedelic *subculture*, not a mature psychedelic culture.  Where are the middle-aged and elderly?  Where are the entire families sharing psychedelia and integrating it into a functioning lifestyle?  What does it look like when these people are working?  Having weddings?  Having funerals?  Birthday parties for the kids?  Think of all of the rituals that a full-fledged culture elaborates.  Do these people have psychedelic versions of all of these rituals?  No, they probably retreat into their subculture for rare gatherings like that, and then the rest of the time they are interacting with a dominant culture of straights that probably includes their parents, a lot of their friends and co-workers, their bosses, their politicians, their scholars...



Well what, do all Indians sing and dance like that all the time??

Furthermore, at least the people in the other guy's video were on psychedelics! And I don't care too much for psytrance but anything is better than that bollywood musical shit :laugh2:

Edited by drr (05/11/11 10:48 PM)

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InvisibleAustrip
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Re: What does a psychedelic culture look like? [Re: Austrip]
    #14437712 - 05/11/11 10:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

oh and have you ever seen Australian aboriginal artwork? or heard about their dream time stories?
some consider it very psychedelic and the Australian aboriginal people are definitely one of the older cultures on earth, there history goes back thousands of years


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OfflineComradez
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Re: What does a psychedelic culture look like? [Re: drr]
    #14437747 - 05/11/11 10:55 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

drr said:
Quote:

Comradez said:
To me, that looks like a psychedelic *subculture*, not a mature psychedelic culture.  Where are the middle-aged and elderly?  Where are the entire families sharing psychedelia and integrating it into a functioning lifestyle?  What does it look like when these people are working?  Having weddings?  Having funerals?  Birthday parties for the kids?  Think of all of the rituals that a full-fledged culture elaborates.  Do these people have psychedelic versions of all of these rituals?  No, they probably retreat into their subculture for rare gatherings like that, and then the rest of the time they are interacting with a dominant culture of straights that probably includes their parents, a lot of their friends and co-workers, their bosses, their politicians, their scholars...



Well what, do all Indians sing and dance like that all the time??

Furthermore, at least the people in the other guy's video were on psychedelics! And I don't care too much for psytrance but anything is better than that bollywood musical shit :laugh2:




Obviously Indians don't sing and dance like that all the time, but those movies are enormously popular, so they must represent things that are very appreciated in the culture.

And I'm actually curious, what is it about the Bollywood music that makes it shit?


--------------------

They say that life's a carousel / Spinning fast, you've got to ride it well / The world is full of kings and queens / Who blind your eyes and steal your dreams / It's heaven and hell - Ronnie James Dio (RIP) :headbanger:

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Invisibledrr
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Re: What does a psychedelic culture look like? [Re: Comradez]
    #14437762 - 05/11/11 10:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Comradez said:
Quote:

drr said:
Quote:

Comradez said:
To me, that looks like a psychedelic *subculture*, not a mature psychedelic culture.  Where are the middle-aged and elderly?  Where are the entire families sharing psychedelia and integrating it into a functioning lifestyle?  What does it look like when these people are working?  Having weddings?  Having funerals?  Birthday parties for the kids?  Think of all of the rituals that a full-fledged culture elaborates.  Do these people have psychedelic versions of all of these rituals?  No, they probably retreat into their subculture for rare gatherings like that, and then the rest of the time they are interacting with a dominant culture of straights that probably includes their parents, a lot of their friends and co-workers, their bosses, their politicians, their scholars...



Well what, do all Indians sing and dance like that all the time??

Furthermore, at least the people in the other guy's video were on psychedelics! And I don't care too much for psytrance but anything is better than that bollywood musical shit :laugh2:




Obviously Indians don't sing and dance like that all the time, but those movies are enormously popular, so they must represent things that are very appreciated in the culture.

And I'm actually curious, what is it about the Bollywood music that makes it shit?



For me its simple. Sounds like shit, is shit. A lot of things fall into that category right off the bat and I totally ignore them. Guess I'm pretty closed minded that way. That's how I find the really good shit though. I don't need to listen to some fucking musical in another language, with them all dancing around super cheese, sorry for my rant but I just can't believe this is psychedelic culture to you, you must live in a cave.

I mean for example
There are communes right now, where whole families live and work together, probably vegetarians, they raise their children together in their secluded ranches, supporting each other as a self sustaining society ideally, I mean that is a much better example of psychedelic culture than some lame bollywood glamor musical LOL

Edited by drr (05/11/11 11:01 PM)

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OfflineComradez
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Re: What does a psychedelic culture look like? [Re: Austrip]
    #14437811 - 05/11/11 11:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Austrip said:
lol so much generalization going on in this thread.

Where are all these indian families sharing their psychedelic culture through out the ages? No  disrespect intended but all the Indian families I know aren't psychedelic in the least bit.

Bollywood films psychedelic? :rofl2:

and no our Australian psychedelic culture is not full fledged as a whole society, but there are plenty of elderly hippies still gathering together with the younglings to pass on knowledge and even come along for the ride.
You've got to remember that our country was only founded a few hundred years back as well so our culture is obviously not as ancient as india or china's is.

Stop assuming and generalizing so much.




Psychedelic culture doesn't have to be shared explicitly.  For example, why the colorful costumes during special occasions (compared to our drab black and white tuxedos signifying status and conformity)?  Obviously it's not because Indian parents sit down with their children and explain that those clothes are psychedelic, and thus that's why they should wear them.  It doesn't work like that.  It just gets passed down from who knows how long ago.  Likewise, consider the dancing, and the sensuality of it.  Nobody explicitly explains that it might have psychedelic implications.  That doesn't mean that it doesn't.

Of course I'm reaching here when I suggest that it does, but I'm trying to argue something novel with evidence we've had in front of our eyes this whole time.  Perhaps I am catastrophically wrong.

Also, concerning generalization:  I would agree, for example, that there's no single uniform "American culture" or "Indian culture."  But are the words "American culture" or "Indian culture" meaningless?  People against essentialism would say, yes--that, by talking about "American culture" or "Indian culture," I am essentializing Americans or Indians.  I think a lot of such discourse gets taken too far.  It was invented largely in order to combat essentializing of African-Americans in certain negative ways (as "lust-filled rapists of southern white women" for example).  But that doesn't mean that there isn't still something that we could point to and call "black culture."  In my opinion, there is still such a thing as "black culture" we could point to, just as well as there's such a thing as "Indian culture" that we could point to.


--------------------

They say that life's a carousel / Spinning fast, you've got to ride it well / The world is full of kings and queens / Who blind your eyes and steal your dreams / It's heaven and hell - Ronnie James Dio (RIP) :headbanger:

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InvisibleAustrip
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Re: What does a psychedelic culture look like? [Re: Comradez]
    #14437853 - 05/11/11 11:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I'd say its an interesting, ancient, colorful, historic culture but its definitely not the best example of psychedelic.
They don't hold the views of the psychedelic experience any more then our home grown psychedelic cultures do, just because the fact that they dress colorfully and dance around doesn't mean that they are a psychedelic culture, doesn't matter how far down through the generations they pass it.

The deeper issues behind what drives the psychedelic experience are not so basic.

Worldwide there is evidence of ancient and extremely modern psychedelic cultures that are much more so then traditional indian culture, and especially bollywood film!
I'm not saying that there isn't psychedelic parts of their way of life, but a complete and mature psychedelic culture? I wouldn't think so.


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OfflineComradez
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Re: What does a psychedelic culture look like? [Re: drr]
    #14437878 - 05/11/11 11:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

drr said:
Quote:

Comradez said:
Quote:

drr said:
Quote:

Comradez said:
To me, that looks like a psychedelic *subculture*, not a mature psychedelic culture.  Where are the middle-aged and elderly?  Where are the entire families sharing psychedelia and integrating it into a functioning lifestyle?  What does it look like when these people are working?  Having weddings?  Having funerals?  Birthday parties for the kids?  Think of all of the rituals that a full-fledged culture elaborates.  Do these people have psychedelic versions of all of these rituals?  No, they probably retreat into their subculture for rare gatherings like that, and then the rest of the time they are interacting with a dominant culture of straights that probably includes their parents, a lot of their friends and co-workers, their bosses, their politicians, their scholars...



Well what, do all Indians sing and dance like that all the time??

Furthermore, at least the people in the other guy's video were on psychedelics! And I don't care too much for psytrance but anything is better than that bollywood musical shit :laugh2:




Obviously Indians don't sing and dance like that all the time, but those movies are enormously popular, so they must represent things that are very appreciated in the culture.

And I'm actually curious, what is it about the Bollywood music that makes it shit?



For me its simple. Sounds like shit, is shit. A lot of things fall into that category right off the bat and I totally ignore them. Guess I'm pretty closed minded that way. That's how I find the really good shit though. I don't need to listen to some fucking musical in another language, with them all dancing around super cheese, sorry for my rant but I just can't believe this is psychedelic culture to you, you must live in a cave.

I mean for example
There are communes right now, where whole families live and work together, probably vegetarians, they raise their children together in their secluded ranches, supporting each other as a self sustaining society ideally, I mean that is a much better example of psychedelic culture than some lame bollywood glamor musical LOL




That sounds cool....

But the only thing I get hung up on is the "secluded ranch" part.  I wouldn't be content with that.  I'd want a culture fully developed and widespread enough that it could engage extensively with the outside world and yet still maintain itself.  Indian culture can do that.  That's why I'm excited even if I see the slightest glimmer in it of what a psychedelic culture might look like (and by "culture," I mean, can engage with the outside world but still maintain and defend itself, can influence world trends and the future of humanity, etc.  Psychedelic communes have a long way to go before they can do that.  And I'm glad that they are trying!  I want things to go that way!  I'm just seeing what we might already have to work with from a bigger culture encompassing 1.3 billion people).


--------------------

They say that life's a carousel / Spinning fast, you've got to ride it well / The world is full of kings and queens / Who blind your eyes and steal your dreams / It's heaven and hell - Ronnie James Dio (RIP) :headbanger:

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Offlinetopdog82
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Re: What does a psychedelic culture look like? [Re: Austrip]
    #14437891 - 05/11/11 11:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I find this hilarious because I am indian and was 12 years old when I wacthed this
As I grew up, I found indian culture to be more and more psychedelic
At sunday school(except they teach you Hinduism), they pretty much fed u psychedelic culture, and at the same time, my teacher denounced "pot" and "drugs"
I thought hinduism was bullshit till I shroomed

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OfflineComradez
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Re: What does a psychedelic culture look like? [Re: Comradez]
    #14437895 - 05/11/11 11:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Okay, I'm glad people are commenting and picking apart the weak spots because now I can refine my thesis a little bit better. 

To be clear, I don't think modern day India is a mature psychedelic culture. 

What I'm saying is, I think modern day India might have some aspects that would share some resemblance with what a widespread, mature psychedelic culture would look like.  I could say the same thing about the West, to a lesser extent.  Movies like "Avatar" and "The Matrix" were, after all, products of some of the brightest of our culture.  These movies do not signify a fully-developed, mature psychedelic culture, but they hint ever-so-slightly in that direction, at least compared to former times.


--------------------

They say that life's a carousel / Spinning fast, you've got to ride it well / The world is full of kings and queens / Who blind your eyes and steal your dreams / It's heaven and hell - Ronnie James Dio (RIP) :headbanger:

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OfflineClamence
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Re: What does a psychedelic culture look like? [Re: Comradez]
    #14437945 - 05/11/11 11:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:Awemush:  :Awemush:  :Awemush:
India+the West sounds amazing.
China+the West sounds like more of the same but worse and worse.

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OfflineComradez
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Re: What does a psychedelic culture look like? [Re: Comradez]
    #14437957 - 05/11/11 11:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Also, concerning "psytrance..."

Does it occur to anyone else that sometimes psytrance is trying too hard to be cool?  I once went to a rave on acid, and I left feeling just kinda alienated.  I enjoyed moving my body and whatnot, but there was no connection with other people.  They were just like a bunch of robots, zoned into the music and trying to seem cool in the face of something that they wanted others to think was deep and profound.  Something about that felt horribly false...because in my experience, one does not stay "cool" when encountering something deep and profound.  If they had really been getting into the trance music, they would have been lying on the floor or flipping out in ecstatic rapture.  But instead they were just stoically raving, like a bunch of robots trying to look cool.  I left feeling really alienated.  At least in comparison, Bollywood music feels much more human.  Yeah, the cheese and  silliness isn't "cool."  Maybe that's for the better.  At least it strikes my inner child as feeling fun and sincere.


--------------------

They say that life's a carousel / Spinning fast, you've got to ride it well / The world is full of kings and queens / Who blind your eyes and steal your dreams / It's heaven and hell - Ronnie James Dio (RIP) :headbanger:

Edited by Comradez (05/11/11 11:44 PM)

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