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 Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
 
Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
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 North Korea - What would you do? 
#1443307 - 04/09/03 01:50 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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I know there is certainly a growing problem with this country and their attempts to go nuclear.. But the question I have for you all is what would you do if you were Bush about the N. Korea crisis?
Do you try to forcefully remove that horrible regime? Do you use sanctions?
My opinion is probably evident, I would support forcefull removal of this regime, however if there was a better way I'd love to hear it since a war there would be a big mess to say the least.
How would you get rid of the 'great leader'?
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 Rono
DSYSB since '01
Registered: 01/25/01
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Loc: Calgary, Alberta
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 Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1443318 - 04/09/03 01:52 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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I wouldn't get involved in the first place...It is not up to the U.S. or anybody else to dictate how a sovereign nation chooses to run itself. North Korea is not attacking anybody.
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1443320 - 04/09/03 01:53 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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The people of North Korea are starving. The economy is in shambles. I believe that that country will soon fall from within.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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z@z.com
Libertarian
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Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1443331 - 04/09/03 01:56 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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Options for Dealing with North Korea
by Ted Galen Carpenter
Executive Summary
North Korea's recent actions in violation of the clear intent of the agreement it signed in 1994 to freeze its nuclear program have ignited a crisis in northeast Asia. Unfortunately, all of the frequently discussed options for dealing with this crisis have major drawbacks.
One option would be to pursue the same strategy embodied in the 1994 agreement: bribe North Korea to give up its nuclear ambitions. Given the failure of bribery in the past, however, there is little reason to assume that sweetening the bribe would induce Pyongyang to honor the commitments that it is already violating. A new round of cheating would be likely.
A second option would be to launch preemptive military strikes against North Korea's nuclear installations. But such a strategy would be profoundly dangerous. Military coercion could trigger a general war on the Korean peninsula. Indeed, if U.S. and Chinese intelligence sources are correct, North Korea may already possess a small number of nuclear weapons, which would make a U.S. preemptive strike especially risky.
A third option is to pressure North Korea to honor its commitments by imposing new economic sanctions. Since North Korea is already one of the most economically isolated countries in the world, however, sanctions are unlikely to dissuade Pyongyang from pursuing a nuclear weapons program.
Washington should consider another approach. It should inform North Korea that, unless it abandons its nuclear program, the United States will encourage South Korea and Japan to make their own decisions about also going nuclear. That prospect might well cause the North to reconsider and keep the region nonnuclear. Even if it does not do so, a nuclear balance of power in northeast Asia might emerge instead of a North Korean nuclear monopoly.
The crisis illustrates the folly of Washington's insistence on maintaining a military presence in East Asia. In a normal international system, North Korea's neighbors?South Korea, Japan, China, and Russia?would have to worry the most about Pyongyang's nuclear ambitions and would take the lead in formulating policies to deal with them.
Full Text
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: z@z.com]
#1443334 - 04/09/03 01:57 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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N. Korea is not in any danger of an overthrow.
Children are tought from birth that the Great Leader is basically a god, and the amount of brainwashing in that country would make Hitler proud.
Rono, I'm not talking the US only, I think the whole world including China need to get involved with removing this regime. I know China is unlikely, but they would probably not stand in the way.
My question to anyone who does not support removing this regime is how do you justify doing nothing while millions are dying in North Korea?
So we sit idly by while that happens and do nothing but sanctions and diplomacy?
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1443363 - 04/09/03 02:06 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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Mind my own business-- that's what Id do
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1443368 - 04/09/03 02:10 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mind my own business-- that's what Id do
Or pretend its not happening 
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
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 Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1443378 - 04/09/03 02:13 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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Oh if anyone gets a chance PBS had a great little documentary on a british journalist who visited North Korea and really opened a lot of eyes to what is happening there.
Interview with Ben Anderson - Versions of the Truth
The main page of that show here:
North Korea - Suspicious Minds
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StopThat
ManWithNoName
Registered: 02/28/03
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1443379 - 04/09/03 02:13 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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Left alone they will develop nukes to sell to the highest bidder.Just like they do with missles now.
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GazzBut
Refraction
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1443384 - 04/09/03 02:15 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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Try and find a peaceful solution...cos at the end of the day you cant go around using violence to find peace and eventually someone will hit u hard.
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Always Smi2le
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grib
Registered: 03/01/03
Posts: 550
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Rono]
#1443388 - 04/09/03 02:16 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
It is not up to the U.S. or anybody else to dictate how a sovereign nation chooses to run itself.
Well said!
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<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1443396 - 04/09/03 02:19 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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I dont need to pretend it isnt happening.. This is none of my business, nor this country's-- preemptive strikes were not the norm a month ago, lets try to remember that.
In that vein, you can stop pretending the united states agenda and foreign policy is for liberation from oppressive rulers.
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: GazzBut]
#1443398 - 04/09/03 02:20 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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How do you find a peacefull solution with a militaristic dictatorship regime?
N. Korea threatens the whole region and the regime knows that the only way to keep power is to keep that 'tension' with outside neighbours so that the focus of the people is on the 'enemies' of the state and not their own horrific problems within the country.
Some stats on the human suffering in N. Korea, BTW there is reported to be millions in a gulag style prison in the North where death rates are huge:
Health/Humanitarian Crisis
North Korea had an infant mortality rate of 2 percent in 2000. (South Korea's infant mortality rate for that same year, by contrast, was 0.5 percent.)
More than 13 million North Koreans suffer from malnutrition, including 60 percent of all children -- the worst rate among 110 developing nations surveyed by the World Health Organization and UNICEF.
A famine lasting more than three years began in 1995 after a series of severe floods.
At a UNICEF conference in Beijing in May 2001, a North Korean official, Choe Su-hon, disclosed that 220,000 people had died of famine from 1995 to 1998. Western sources put famine casualties during the same period much higher, from 270,000 to 2 million.
Choe Su-hon also announced that during the height of the famine the average life expectancy fell by more than six years and the infant mortality rate climbed.
The effects of the famine were intensified by bad weather, a mismanaged agricultural sector and an economy crippled by the collapse of the Soviet Union. Economic sanctions were also a factor.
Roughly a third of North Koreans receive food aid, according to the United Nations.
The largest international aid agency operating in North Korea is the U.N.'s World Food Program. Since 1995, the WFP has delivered 2 million tons of food, worth $500 million."
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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 Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: StopThat]
#1443402 - 04/09/03 02:23 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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Bravo! Maybe that will stop colonial invasions in the future. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. We have thousands of nukes--- what exactly makes us deserving of that distinction and nobody else?
Free trade, baby.
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1443404 - 04/09/03 02:24 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
I dont need to pretend it isnt happening.. This is none of my business, nor this country's-- preemptive strikes were not the norm a month ago, lets try to remember that.
In that vein, you can stop pretending the united states agenda and foreign policy is for liberation from oppressive rulers.
The agenda is something I am not getting into since I think the end result is what we should be discussing.
North Korea is a clear and present danger to not only the West but especially to that region.
Should they be allowed to go nuclear? Do you think we should respond if N. Korea invaded its southern brothers?
Appeasement certainly did not work with Hitler, why should it work this time with N. Korea?
Do we not learn from history?
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1443408 - 04/09/03 02:26 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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I suppose the question is whether we believe George Bush is a man who cares for the North Korean peoples welfare. Looking at the catastrophe currently happening in Afghanistan and his deep desire to abandon the country to his new pals the terrifying Northern Alliance warlords my guess is however bad the North Koreans have it now it's better than what Bush would do with it.
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1443412 - 04/09/03 02:29 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bravo! Maybe that will stop colonial invasions in the future. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. We have thousands of nukes--- what exactly makes us deserving of that distinction and nobody else?
Free trade, baby.
So you think we should allow everyone to have nukes? This will make the world safer??
Kim Jong knows that his regime would fall if his people learned how they have been lied to and manipulated for all these decades. He knows that if he was backed in a corner that he would fight back with everything he has at his disposal.
Appeasing this regime is only delaying an inevitable future conflict that would likely invovle nuclear weapons and horrible casualty rates.
I can't believe the US focused on Iraq, because the real issue should have been and should be now N. Korea.
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StopThat
ManWithNoName
Registered: 02/28/03
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1443414 - 04/09/03 02:30 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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We dont sell nukes to the highest bidder
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Xlea321]
#1443416 - 04/09/03 02:31 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
I suppose the question is whether we believe George Bush is a man who cares for the North Korean peoples welfare. Looking at the catastrophe currently happening in Afghanistan and his deep desire to abandon the country to his new pals the terrifying Northern Alliance warlords my guess is however bad the North Koreans have it now it's better than what Bush would do with it.
I don't think this situation is comparable. The South wants desperately to reunify with their brothers/sisters in the North. It would be like the fall of the Berlin Wall, Germans reunited and rebuilt their country. The aftermath of this war would be a united Korea that the world would of course help get back on its feet.
I think the UN needs to be an integral part of this action from start to finish, not just the US.
Edited by Thor (04/09/03 02:32 PM)
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Xlea321
Stranger
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1443417 - 04/09/03 02:31 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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Ironically enough, the US took on Iraq because they knew it had no weapons of mass destruction. With N. Korea having the bomb it's very unlikely they'll try invading.
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Ellis Dee
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1443420 - 04/09/03 02:33 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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I don't have a beef with communist N.Korea. No oriental hijackers have crashed planes in to north american buildings. There's no AlQaeda in communist N. Korea. They talk big but they're not going to hurt America. They don't even have a good motive to.
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Xlea321]
#1443424 - 04/09/03 02:35 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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Amen.
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StopThat
ManWithNoName
Registered: 02/28/03
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Xlea321]
#1443426 - 04/09/03 02:36 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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Wether or not people agree with it,I think the current agenda of the US administration is to elimanate possible threats to our security. Might ruffle some feathers in the process,but honestly,how many people said "how could this happen?" after 9/11?
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pattern
multiplayer
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1443427 - 04/09/03 02:36 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
My question to anyone who does not support removing this regime is how do you justify doing nothing while millions are dying in North Korea?
Send them food.
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man = monkey + mushroom
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StopThat
ManWithNoName
Registered: 02/28/03
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: pattern]
#1443429 - 04/09/03 02:37 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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They would just sell it to make more nukes.
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: StopThat]
#1443433 - 04/09/03 02:38 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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I didnt.
I said, "That was genius--- pure unadulterated fucking genius! Thank god for Project Northwood!"
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: StopThat]
#1443434 - 04/09/03 02:38 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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*dupe*
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Edited by PsiloKitten (04/09/03 02:41 PM)
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: pattern]
#1443438 - 04/09/03 02:39 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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Appeasement is always a bad idea. It is better to just allow this to go on than to promote it.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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pattern
multiplayer
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: z@z.com]
#1443486 - 04/09/03 02:53 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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A concern Thor has is for starving North Koreans. I see no better solution than food. Makes sense to me.
I was friends with a South Korean once, he was a Canadian exchange student. He said that in the army he had 30 seconds to eat each meal, so he learnt how to force down as much food in that time as possible.
All I see here is more paranoia, as with Iraq. People are making up assumptions. "North Korea is going to destroy the world". Bullshit. North Korea is obviously afraid of being in Bush's Axis of Evil, and wants to build up a defense before America comes in with guns blazing.
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man = monkey + mushroom
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GazzBut
Refraction
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: GazzBut]
#1443491 - 04/09/03 02:54 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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From the article:
Quote:
Possibly, because in Iraq you feel absolutely certain that Saddam has almost zero support in his own country. In North Korea, though, you think: Well, maybe most of the population really does feel this kind of pride. Certainly you come away from a trip to the demilitarized zone on the northern side feeling absolutely positive that if a conflict between South Korea and the U.S. troops in South Korea breaks out, these guys will gladly stand and fight to the death.
If these undeniably poorly treated people do feel a sense of pride, however misguided, in their country, do we really have the right to make war with them on their behalf? If the guy in the article is right and they would indeed fight to the death how many thousands would we have to kill before they were "liberated"?
I cant really see a war with N.Korea emerging anyway. I think countries like Syria and Iran are much more likely. But do we really have a moral obligation to the people of these countries to "liberate" them by killing them.
Fighting for peace, killing to liberate....
Is this the best we can come up with? If evolution is a game then we arent playing to clever right now!
If our humble leaders really had a burning desire to help humanity wouldnt a better place to start be Africa or Asia, where our help in building these countries would be gladly apreciated?
I wonder how much good u could do with the amount of money we have spent on the liberation of Iraq? or the amount we will spend if we do move on to liberate some more people by killing them.
If we were to really act in peace towards the world how many terrorists would it breed?you can just see it cant you "ahhh God damn Americans have staved off famine in Africa and saved lives of thousands,A pestilence upon them, I must kill them all
!"
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Always Smi2le
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: GazzBut]
#1443511 - 04/09/03 03:03 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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If only a country would come and invade the UK and US and rid the world of Blair and Bush...
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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arabmobster
#1
Registered: 04/01/03
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Xlea321]
#1443517 - 04/09/03 03:06 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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north korea will destroy the americans
sha allah
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Floydian
veteran
Registered: 05/13/00
Posts: 1,022
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1443525 - 04/09/03 03:09 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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God you guys dont waste anytime do you. Afganistan to iraq to N. Korea in a blink of an eye. We're not even finished in afganistan yet for christ sakes!
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Don't squeeze the pancake batter
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Anonymous
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1443527 - 04/09/03 03:10 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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I have to agree with Rono, Psilo, et al.
It isn't my problem. I wouldn't get involved. Neither would I have involved myself OR my country in the Middle East conflict. Why bother? It cannot be solved.
Amerika needs to mind it's own fucking business.
It is hard to hear of other people's suffering. But instead of it making me want to meddle in other's affairs, instead I roll up my sleeves and help them as much as I can personally.
This gives me peace of mind and the satisfaction that I am making a difference in the world I live in.
Cheers to "best Leader of the Shroomery",
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arabmobster
#1
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: ]
#1443548 - 04/09/03 03:17 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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america does need to mind their own fucking bussiness
they already own the middleasy except syria and iran
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Anonymous
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: arabmobster]
#1443571 - 04/09/03 03:27 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
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We have a saying here in America.
I don't have a dog in that fight.
But I do wish you guys could settle this without killing one another. 
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Floydian
veteran
Registered: 05/13/00
Posts: 1,022
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: ]
#1443614 - 04/09/03 03:40 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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um, duder. I've once heard anyone say that. lol.
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Don't squeeze the pancake batter
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: ]
#1443636 - 04/09/03 03:47 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Something has to be done, if not militarilly then something that will help to free the people and save them from their own leader.
Are we to sit idly by while millions die and suffer at the hands of an evil regime?
These were the questions the world asked before WWII, and look how that ended up.
Ignoring problems and hoping they will fix themselves is no way of living. We live in our lap of luxury in the west while other countries face horrible suffering.
I can't feel good about this world if we won't stand up and fight for those who can't.
Its a sad situation, and I do understand the lack of peoples desire for more war.. But appeasement and 'minding our own business' is allowing horrible attrocities all over the world.
People are arguing about how many civilians have died in the Iraq war, well how many Iraqi's would have died under Saddam and his sons in the next decade?
Sometimes we have to get our hands dirty, once this world is a democratic community instead of only pockets of freedom; then only then can we start considering the end of war as we know it.
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Anonymous
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1443671 - 04/09/03 04:00 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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I hear ya Bro but I disagree. You have a big heart but I think it is misguided.
Are you like my neighbor that interferes in my business? (how I run my household)
Don't you think it is rather presumptuous to declare what is good for someone else?
I mind my own business except for the personal help I give to others. That satisfies the ache I have in my own heart over all the suffering.
And I am very careful about the help I give.
I tried a couple of times to help struggling couples in their marriages. In the end I was labeled "the bad guy". I learned not to help in that way anymore.
Philosophically speaking I do not think there will ever be an end to war or humans suffering at the hands of other humans.
When I was a politician I rode with the police one night. We saw a young black women with a swollen mass on her blood soaked face. It was explained to me that her husband had beat her again, this time with a baseball bat. I will never forget her face. Or when the officer I was riding with explained to me that it will probably happen again because she didn't know how to leave him.
So what do I do? My wife and I give money to a "Safe Home" for battered women and children.
What do we don't do?
Go over to their house with our own baseball bat to help them "sort it out".
Does that make sense?
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: ]
#1443700 - 04/09/03 04:09 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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So far in my life I have been in one fight. I saw a man punch the shit out of his wife and I beat the shit out of him. I don't know what happened to them after that, but I felt like what I did was justified. Hopefully she left that asshole.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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Anonymous
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: z@z.com]
#1443710 - 04/09/03 04:12 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Yes, I have been involved like that too. Unfortunately the statistics are that she didn't leave him.
These days I physically fight no one unless they touch me or mine.
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: ]
#1443762 - 04/09/03 04:25 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Are you like my neighbor that interferes in my business? (how I run my household)
Well if you were beating your wife or doing something like that I'd be sure to 'interfere' in your business 
Quote:
Don't you think it is rather presumptuous to declare what is good for someone else?
Well I'll take a stand anyday for stopping people for being killed for their beliefs, being murdered for dissent, being imprisoned for many years for minor crimes, people starving because their own government spends most of their money on their military on their own people.
These people don't have a choice, they have to do as they are told and yeah I do think it is the duty of democratic people of this world to help them to achieve democracy.
Quote:
What do we don't do?
Go over to their house with our own baseball bat to help them "sort it out".
Does that make sense?
No because this is not a domestic dispute, comparing a couple next door having problems to a country being run by a viscous dictator who murders hundreds of thousands and has an estimated 7 million people in starvation, YEAH, then I think its our duty to step in.
If you want to use that analogy let me ask you this? If you saw a man beating his wife would you step in to help her? If you saw a group of people beating up a guy in the street, would you not try to help or get help?
Everyone seems to feel what was done in WWII was justified and had to be done.. But now in the post cold war era we are all afraid to finish the mess of the end of WWII.
I think our curse as a world today is that we do not care enough for our fellow man. We are all so wrapped up in our own lives and our own world that we would rather not think about the attrocities and suffering that is occuring in many parts of the world.
If we are to have a hopefull future for all in the world, then we have to help those who can't help themselves.
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Anonymous
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1443823 - 04/09/03 04:46 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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"Well if you were beating your wife or doing something like that I'd be sure to 'interfere' in your business"
And where you draw the line is the only correct standard? I was planning on growing mushrooms. Now that you moved next to me I won't. Should I give up smoking too?
"Well I'll take a stand anyday for stopping people for being killed for their beliefs, being murdered for dissent, being imprisoned for many years for minor crimes, people starving because their own government spends most of their money on their military on their own people.
These people don't have a choice, they have to do as they are told and yeah I do think it is the duty of democratic people of this world to help them to achieve democracy."
Sounds innocent enough. But remember, there is no worse tyrant than the one who feels he is doing good.
"No because this is not a domestic dispute, comparing a couple next door having problems to a country being run by a viscous dictator who murders hundreds of thousands and has an estimated 7 million people in starvation, YEAH, then I think its our duty to step in."
Sure it is a domestic dispute. The problems are those which exist within the borders of the country.
"If you want to use that analogy let me ask you this? If you saw a man beating his wife would you step in to help her? If you saw a group of people beating up a guy in the street, would you not try to help or get help?"
1. No, I would appeal to a higher authority (police) and not take the law into my own hands. Similarly I would not interfere with an abortionist even though I think he is murdering babies. In this instance there is no "higher authority".
2. Same answer as 1., I would alert the higher authority on behalf of the man. The United States isn't a higher authority.
"Everyone seems to feel what was done in WWII was justified and had to be done.. But now in the post cold war era we are all afraid to finish the mess of the end of WWII."
Sorry about this but argumentum ad populam, appeal to the masses. I really don't care what a group of people thinks about any issue. I make up my own mind on what is and isn't right action based on careful, deliberate, thoughtful analysis of the facts.
"I think our curse as a world today is that we do not care enough for our fellow man. We are all so wrapped up in our own lives and our own world that we would rather not think about the attrocities and suffering that is occuring in many parts of the world.
If we are to have a hopefull future for all in the world, then we have to help those who can't help themselves."
Thor, you know me. You know I care deeply. But I will not interfere with someone else's right to stand up for themsleves OR insist on protecting those not under my charge.
And as I said, I really appreciate how much you care.
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: ]
#1443833 - 04/09/03 04:50 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Listen to this and tell me we shouldn't do anything:
http://audio.stanleyfdn.org/mp3/cg0231-3.mp3
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 16,259
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1443840 - 04/09/03 04:51 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
being imprisoned for many years for minor crimes, people starving because their own government spends most of their money on their military instead of on their own people.
I thought you were talking about the U.S. for a second... 
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
Edited by Rono (04/09/03 04:52 PM)
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GabbaDj
BTH
Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,682
Loc: By The Lake
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: arabmobster]
#1443843 - 04/09/03 04:52 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
america does need to mind their own fucking bussiness
they already own the middleasy except syria and iran
We dont own Turkey, In fact I suspect that the next big fight will be in Turkey.. The Media has covered Turkeys objections and lack of support for the war in Iraq and Turkey does not want the Kurds to have an independant nation of their own.
I get the feeling that the US had made some promises to the Kurds for their support and set up the entire Turkey thing so that after we take Iraq and Turkey begins fighting the Kurds we will have no choice but to take Turkey.
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GabbaDj
FAMM.ORG
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Anonymous
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: GabbaDj]
#1443858 - 04/09/03 04:58 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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good thought, although i'm doubting we'll give the kurds their own state. they didnt do much in the war, compared to what the 'coalition' did..
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Rono]
#1443862 - 04/09/03 05:00 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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We are getting off topic a bit here.
The one thing I've noticed mostly with the responses here is there isn't much of an answer to my question about "what would you do about North Korea" ... A few people said do nothing, but what about everyone else.
If war is such a bad idea, then what do we do about attrocities occuring in places like North Korea??
If you don't support war, what do you support in regards to North Korea?
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1443878 - 04/09/03 05:10 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Maybe we should try to educate the people. Give them some accurate information. Let them know that people aren't starving everywhere.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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GabbaDj
BTH
Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,682
Loc: By The Lake
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1443894 - 04/09/03 05:17 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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I would strive for peace without military intervention.
N Korea can have their nuclear program, hell well even destroy our own nuclear program and invite them to check things out un-escorted as a sign of good faith.. Nuclear energy is what they are going for anyway, not bombs... They feel that they have the right to technology which makes cheep abundant electricity and they do...
Hell, if they want to open up contracts with American firms, so be it. We could propably be a great help to them in developing nuclear power.
If you want to know what I would do... I would make weapons my last priority, I would make amends with all nations that weve pissed off and I would develope programs that would benefit the world..
I would also be responsible for allowing the US to fall into chaos and be destroyed by the enemy whoever they may be... But we will never know unless we give it a try.
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GabbaDj
FAMM.ORG
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flow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: GabbaDj]
#1443945 - 04/09/03 05:35 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Nuclear energy is what they are going for anyway, not bombs...
thats a joke right?
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Murex
Reality Hacker
Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1443984 - 04/09/03 05:47 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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My question to anyone who does not support removing this regime is how do you justify doing nothing while millions are dying in North Korea?
Because it would make Amerika look bad/worse (if Amerika would be involved).
--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: z@z.com]
#1443997 - 04/09/03 05:52 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Good idea, but how do you go about that?
There are those in N. Korea who know how bad it is in their country, there are always people trying to flee the country. But none dare speak out against the government.
The problem is this regime controls the flow of information so tightly that people only see what the regime wants them to see, and they certainly wouldn't allow the people to learn of the outside world because that would cause great unstability within N. Korea.
Any attempts by the outside world to force education on the people through various means would be seen as an act of aggression.
N. Korea is not looking just for Nuclear power plants, they are looking to create nuclear weapons.
N. Korea is made up of brainwashed loyalists, imprisoned political prisoners, starving people who care only to survive and can't be bothered with politics.
Within the summers end its estimated that 7 million N. Koreans will be starving, this is an enormous problem and something must be done.
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Murex]
#1444003 - 04/09/03 05:54 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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I've been repeating this but again let me say this would be the UN and the world against N. Korea.
The focus needs to shift on this problem, because it has the potential for a disaster in the near future.
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Murex
Reality Hacker
Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1444022 - 04/09/03 06:02 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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I wouldn't do anything to N. Korea exept talk to them maybe. If anything, I would send in a few spies.
The Korea thing isn't like this Iraq situation- Just because we liberated Iraq from Saddam doesn't mean we will liberate Korea from whoeverthefukhisnameis.
Other countries have recently developed nuclear weapons and we didn't have to fight them. I really don't understand why we would fight a country that develops nukes. If we can have them, so can other countries- as long as they know we'll be watching them.
--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?
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Anonymous
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1444026 - 04/09/03 06:03 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Millions are starving and dying in africa, suffering from horrible afflictions. I've seen pictures of some of those people, its stomach churning.
Why dont we go help them, instead? We wont need to wage any war, just move in with food and aid.
Millions are dying in South Africa from hiv/aids..
There are probably half a billion poor, hungry, sick, helpless people. We cant help them all. We have to worry about our own.
It sucks, but life aint fair.
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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 Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: ]
#1444121 - 04/09/03 06:45 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Good lord, now I know the end is indeed at hand.
Mr. Mushroom agreed with me.
Im friggin speechless.
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Anonymous
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 Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1444272 - 04/09/03 07:27 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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The likelihood that we would disagree on everything is remote.
Just as it is that we would agree on everything.
Or you could say that even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometime. (reference to self)
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Anonymous
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 Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1444276 - 04/09/03 07:29 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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I don't know what it was that you wanted me to listen to because it wouldn't play. Just know that appealling to pity with me never works, if it had anything to do with that.
Do you have a rebuttal to my former post to you?
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: ]
#1444310 - 04/09/03 07:38 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Then I guess sometimes I feel like a nut, most times I dont.
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: ]
#1444375 - 04/09/03 07:53 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
And where you draw the line is the only correct standard? I was planning on growing mushrooms. Now that you moved next to me I won't. Should I give up smoking too?
You compare smoking, mushrooms, to basic human rights, and to be free from a horrible dictator? Smoking is not against the law, why would I care if you smoke? If I see you beating a woman I won't run to my phone or wait for someone to help, I go and pull you off of the woman.
Quote:
Sounds innocent enough. But remember, there is no worse tyrant than the one who feels he is doing good.
So liberating the people of North Korea is not a good thing? The south certainly feels strongly that the North's regime has to go, yet they are as many hesitant about war since they still have it fresh in their memory.
Quote:
Sure it is a domestic dispute. The problems are those which exist within the borders of the country.
So if we use the analogy of 'neighbours' and you knew I was murdering people in my house, torturing and killing people in my back yard, you would respect my right to do what I want in my house? Or what if I was building huge bombs in my house and kept throwing empty bomb containers over your house as a way of showing you not to mess with me.
There is no denying why N. Korea is building nuclear weapons, this is not a regime whom fears a war, they are so prepared for it I think in a sick sense many are eager in their delusions to go to war.
Quote:
1. No, I would appeal to a higher authority (police) and not take the law into my own hands. Similarly I would not interfere with an abortionist even though I think he is murdering babies. In this instance there is no "higher authority".
2. Same answer as 1., I would alert the higher authority on behalf of the man. The United States isn't a higher authority.
So you would allow the man to beat this woman until the police show up? Well I'm glad your not in my neighbourhood I see someone in trouble, I help, and I'd expect the same from my fellow man.
Quote:
Sorry about this but argumentum ad populam, appeal to the masses. I really don't care what a group of people thinks about any issue. I make up my own mind on what is and isn't right action based on careful, deliberate, thoughtful analysis of the facts.
Good, thats what everyone should do, learn the facts and make up their own mind. Now having said that and assuming you have read up on N. Korea; do you see any solution to the present danger that country inflicts on its region and to what they are doing in their own country to its people.
Quote:
Thor, you know me. You know I care deeply. But I will not interfere with someone else's right to stand up for themsleves OR insist on protecting those not under my charge.
And as I said, I really appreciate how much you care.
I do appreciate your big heart as well MM
But I see this differently than you, I don't think we could agree on a situation like this because we feel fundimentally different about what I'd call human responsibilities.
I just hope that a future nuclear war with N. Korea is avoided, and that we don't see millions more die in vain in that country.
To the comments earlier about Africa and the starving there; I think we do not do nearly enough there either to help those people.
I have to ask one thing that seems to be a sentiment with people here against war..
Iraq invaded Kuwait and you people supported the war then right? I'm assuming you did as well, please correct me if I'm wrong.
Now the argument seems to be that war should only happen in case of self defense. After WWI that was certainly the belief and even after hitler invaded Austria,etc he was still allowed to because people hoped appeasement was a way to avoid war.
Well in North Korea's case they are building nuclear weapons, and have an immense military of which they continue to build. Are we to assume they are never going to do anything with their military and never use those nuclear weapons?
Are will still this naive after all of history's lessons on dealing with militaristic dictatorship nations?
If we don't deal with N. Korea now, then we will have to deal with them later and the consequences then will be 100 times worse than today.
We don't learn from history, we are seemingly stuck on repeating the same mistakes over and over.
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1444524 - 04/09/03 08:28 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
We don't learn from history, we are seemingly stuck on repeating the same mistakes over and over.
Some of us think that by waging preemptive war on a nation we are making the same mistakes that Hitler did. Perhaps in a slightly lesser degree but with alot more powerful toys.
This country has absolutely no concept of foreign relations and it really bully's alot of the world. I mean, think about it.. France did not support the war, over half of its population was opposed and the country was united.
If the United States could perhaps try to stop shitting in other people's sand boxes and instead spend some time facing the issues here at home and really taking a look at what we have done to our foreign relations. Then, we need to start quietly fixing it while we build our economy back up-- regardless of who's fault it was, a good leader will try to fix it instead of pointing fingers and going on a rampage that is going on cost us billions that the iraqi oil cant cover.
Im not just heaping the blame upon this president or any other, nor upon one single person... but on our elected officials and ultimately, we the people.
Perhaps we should try walking again instead of stomping angrilyy across the small small world.
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Edited by PsiloKitten (04/09/03 08:34 PM)
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Murex
Reality Hacker
Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1444537 - 04/09/03 08:33 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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If everyone is a room is against you, does that make you wrong?
--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?
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Anonymous
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1444550 - 04/09/03 08:36 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Last reply and then I agree to disagree.
I have gotten between a man and his wife. Have you? It never turned out the way I wanted to and I was blamed.
This is also the problem of America interfering. We get blamed.
If I saw you beating your wife I might call the police. How do I know what the circumstances were? As a rule I try to stay out of my neighbors affairs.
Your argument makes the US the police of the world. I couldn't disagree more. People have a right to be free and believe me when I say my heart bleeds for them. But I do not think we should interfere, period. For one thing I do not trust the US government. I think it is wicked, powerful, and dangerous.
There is this idea that we should go around the world spreading "democracy" and that that is a good thing. It is the way we combat the dreaded "Communism".
With all the crap going around and especially after 9/11 here is what I am up for:
1. Close the doors. No more immigrants of any kind.
2. Kick everyone out that is not a citizen. Then lock the doors.
3. Refuse to give any kind of aid to anyone. No money, no military aid, no supplies.
4. Build up our military strength so that if anyone is stupid enough to fuck with us we blast them into oblivion.
My thinking on all of this is in evolution. I have changed my mind in several ways since 9/11. Which wars do I now think we should have been involved in?
1. The Revolutionary War.
2. The War of Northern Aggression if I was a Southerner.
3. WW II after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.
And again I have to tell you what a great guy you are. Even though we disagree I really enjoy talking with you. You will always be "My Captain".
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Murex]
#1444556 - 04/09/03 08:38 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Heh, I guess it just makes you a unique human being!
...Trying in whatever ways that you have been equipped with to make some sense of this sometimes ...
Code:
wild, wacky, beautiful, evil, muting, changing...
revulsing and pulsing world.
Edited for some note at inflection because people on message boards never seem to have any imagination anymore!
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Edited by PsiloKitten (04/09/03 08:57 PM)
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Anonymous
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 Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1444582 - 04/09/03 08:44 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Sister, you said a mouthful!
Cheers,
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Murex
Reality Hacker
Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1444610 - 04/09/03 08:55 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?
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Evolving
Resident Cynic
Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: ]
#1444615 - 04/09/03 08:57 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
1. Close the doors. No more immigrants of any kind.
2. Kick everyone out that is not a citizen. Then lock the doors.
3. Refuse to give any kind of aid to anyone. No money, no military aid, no supplies.
4. Build up our military strength so that if anyone is stupid enough to fuck with us we blast them into oblivion.
I agree with most of this but, my wife is not a citizen (well, not of the U.S. anyway).
--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Murex
Reality Hacker
Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Evolving]
#1444628 - 04/09/03 09:02 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Did you purchase a Russian wife?
--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?
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Evolving
Resident Cynic
Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Murex]
#1444662 - 04/09/03 09:13 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Did you purchase a Russian wife?
No, my wife is Dutch. I did not purchase her, I won her heart. However, knowing American women as I do, I do not think that sponsoring a Russian woman to be a wife would be a bad thing.
--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1444716 - 04/09/03 09:30 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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What makes you think that N. Korea will become the next Nazi Germany?
Has N. Korea ever attacked anyone (besides S. Korea)?
Do you know the history of the Korean Peninsula? it doesn't sound that way.
What you are proposing is that we kill a few million people in order to save a few million people.
I sincerely hope nobody in Washington is thinking like this.
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: infidelGOD]
#1444745 - 04/09/03 09:38 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Too bad that they are.
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,652
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 22 minutes, 4 seconds
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1444749 - 04/09/03 09:39 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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I don't think we're going to have a chance to make a pre-emptive strike. I think S. Korea is about to do something really stupid, and then they're going to get kicked in the ass so hard they shit out of their eye sockets.
Till then I say we provoke the shit out of them.
Edit: Err... North Korea that is.
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This space for rent
Edited by Baby_Hitler (04/09/03 11:26 PM)
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infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1444756 - 04/09/03 09:40 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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bunch of amateurs with big ideas
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: infidelGOD]
#1444780 - 04/09/03 09:49 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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But it's all playing out like a movie script.
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Murex
Reality Hacker
Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1444787 - 04/09/03 09:51 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Too bad that they are.
How do you know? Can you read minds? 
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What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Murex]
#1444820 - 04/09/03 10:00 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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I dont need to read minds, they have said it. Themselves!
..... and the world is listening. Even though Americans arent getting it all.. the world is.
Do you know that Bush issued a warning to Syria in his speech in Belfast? No, because the media isnt reporting it.
This administration is a tribunal of war criminals recycled from all the bungling losers in the upper echelons that murphy's law let through.
Wake up, my friend.
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Edited by PsiloKitten (04/09/03 10:06 PM)
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1444843 - 04/09/03 10:06 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Do you know that Bush issued a warning to Syria in his speech in Belfast? No, because the media isnt reporting it.
I saw it on fox news. Nice try at showing how biased the media is supposed to be though.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
Edited by z@z.com (04/09/03 10:06 PM)
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: z@z.com]
#1444858 - 04/09/03 10:08 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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For longer then a few hours right after the speech was given.. so it didnt morph into a whole, the UN will play a role --
Odd. Faux News telling the truth, doubtful
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1444889 - 04/09/03 10:16 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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PsiloKitten writes:
Do you know that Bush issued a warning to Syria in his speech in Belfast? No, because the media isnt reporting it.
Incorrect. I saw it on all the websites I normally cruise, as well as the ones my wife prefers. I saw it on Reuters, MSNBC, NYTimes.com, Foxnews, CNN, and others.
pinky
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EchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1444920 - 04/09/03 10:26 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Keep in mind that North Korea only reactivated their nuclear program after Bush started waving the big stick at Iraq. Being named as a member of the "Axis of Evil" might have had something to do with it as well.
They made their motive perfectly clear: there's no way they're going to let themselves become a target of invasion and go the way of Iraq.
The war against Iraq has also convinced many hardliners in mainland China to begin beefing up their own military and preparing for a potential military conflict with the United States.
It's a simple matter of action and reaction. The United States' new policy of "pre-emptive" strikes on the basis of even circumstantial evidence has made the entire world, including many of our allies, consider the United States a signficant threat to world peace. Certainly our rivals are going to see it that way, and take whatever measures they believe are necessary to deter any potential attack by the US. The only way you can deter an attack by the most powerful conventional army in the world is by possessing weapons of mass destruction, preferably nuclear weapons capable of striking the United States. The foreign policy of the United States may have liberated the people of Iraq (from Saddam as well as from their oil) but it will in fact lead to a greater proliferation of WMD.
The United States should cut out the ridiculous Axis of Evil rhetoric and either leave N. Korea alone or offer economic aid in exchange for ending the nuclear program. The last proposal probably won't work however--it would have worked ten years ago (and it did) but there's no way that N. Korea will trust this administration.
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Anonymous
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Evolving]
#1444959 - 04/09/03 10:37 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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That's interesting. My ex-brother in law married my ex-sister in law and "bought" his citizenship. He is Palestinian.
I thought marriage made a person automatically a citizen.
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1445078 - 04/09/03 11:06 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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As someone said there are millions more dying every day in Africa than N.Korea. The US could help the situation overnight by dropping the debt and trying to reign back their catastrophic corporate influence in the area. No need to bomb anyone.
Of course the chances of Bush doing this are nil. Genuinely helping people doesn't justify what he really wants. Enormous increases in "defence" spending so you can give your corporate buddies enormous welfare cheques and looking tough for the next election.
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Evolving
Resident Cynic
Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: ]
#1445273 - 04/09/03 11:46 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
I thought marriage made a person automatically a citizen.
Nope, it makes it very easy to obtain permanent resident alien status (or some similar nomenclature) but that's as far as it goes. My wife sees no benefits in becoming an American citizen (we married for love - go figure). If the shit hits the fan in this country, it will make it easier to relocate NOT being a citizen. I've asked her to try to obtain dual citizenship for our children but that hasn't happened yet.
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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: ]
#1445644 - 04/10/03 02:40 AM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
1. Close the doors. No more immigrants of any kind.
2. Kick everyone out that is not a citizen. Then lock the doors.
3. Refuse to give any kind of aid to anyone. No money, no military aid, no supplies.
4. Build up our military strength so that if anyone is stupid enough to fuck with us we blast them into oblivion
I'm sorry but that is truly and so horribly sad
We couldn't be more opposites on this kind of thinking, and you know I'll always respect you for your thoughts and opinions..
For a nation built by immigrants why would you 'shut' the doors?
Oh well, I can understand why people think like this. I however am a futurist/optimist who believes one day we will think less as 'nations' and more as a global community where there is less focus on differences and nationialities.
Closing the door to the world only makes things worse, what the US needs to do in many cases as with the rest of the west is help Africa on the road to recovery (drop the debt), fix the problems created by the Iraqi war and work on relations with the Arabs of the world.
I guess the immigrant thing hit me most of all since my family and I were immigrants to Canada and I know a lot of people who have moved to Canada in the last 20 yrs.
These times may make people feel so vulnerable and wonder about our future under a super power like the US, but I think always in an optimistic light that things can be repaired.
Doom and gloom is no way of thinking
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GazzBut
Refraction
Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 3 months, 12 days
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Xlea321]
#1445836 - 04/10/03 06:33 AM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Of course the chances of Bush doing this are nil. Genuinely helping people doesn't justify what he really wants. Enormous increases in "defence" spending so you can give your corporate buddies enormous welfare cheques and looking tough for the next election.
Well said Al!
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Always Smi2le
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 34,213
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 10 hours, 23 minutes
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1445870 - 04/10/03 07:05 AM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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I say go into North Korea and blow those mother fuckers up like
"BOOM BOOM BOOM BAM BAM BAM, THAT'S FOR 9-11 MOTHER FUCKERS"
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Mp3 of the month: Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish
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EchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: ]
#1445999 - 04/10/03 08:53 AM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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1. Close the doors. No more immigrants of any kind.
Economic suicide. The computer industry would collapse. So would graduate research in the sciences. The number of new doctors would shrink. Do you know how many immigrants fill important jobs in computer science, engineering, medicine, scientific research, etc.? Go visit a research university someday. It will open your eyes. This is to say nothing about the menial labor and entrepreneurship sectors of the economy. Immigrants work harder for less money than native-borns. They're not spoiled and coddled, they're hungry to succeed. They save money instead of going into credit-card debt. They start new businesses. Having an open door to immigrants is one of the smartest economic moves this country has ever made. It results in a brain drain that brings many of the best minds in the world to these shores, to our collective economic gain.
Besides, this is just plain un-American.
2. Kick everyone out that is not a citizen. Then lock the doors.
Even better. We can add the mind-boggling cost and economic chaos of forcibly deporting tens of millions of law-abiding residents. Please don't call yourself a Libertarian again.
3. Refuse to give any kind of aid to anyone. No money, no military aid, no supplies.
This will be easy to do once the economy implodes. We won't be able to afford any such aid anyway.
4. Build up our military strength so that if anyone is stupid enough to fuck with us we blast them into oblivion.
Just like we blasted Osama bin Laden into oblivion?
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Anonymous
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: EchoVortex]
#1446133 - 04/10/03 10:04 AM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Economic suicide. The computer industry would collapse. So would graduate research in the sciences. The number of new doctors would shrink. Do you know how many immigrants fill important jobs in computer science, engineering, medicine, scientific research, etc.? Go visit a research university someday. It will open your eyes. This is to say nothing about the menial labor and entrepreneurship sectors of the economy. Immigrants work harder for less money than native-borns. They're not spoiled and coddled, they're hungry to succeed. They save money instead of going into credit-card debt. They start new businesses. Having an open door to immigrants is one of the smartest economic moves this country has ever made. It results in a brain drain that brings many of the best minds in the world to these shores, to our collective economic gain.
Speculation. I've heard the argument. I remain unconvinced. Our INS policy is an abysmal failure. Most immigrants come here for nepotism. While it is true that some come here and raise the level of economic growth I would trade that in a minute to take care of "our own". Besides, I am Native American. What do you think I really think of the scum that has crossed the seas to MY shore?
Even better. We can add the mind-boggling cost and economic chaos of forcibly deporting tens of millions of law-abiding residents. Please don't call yourself a Libertarian again.
Speculation again. This isn't about money. It's about principle. This is a post 9/11 America. Time for those who don't belong to leave. We'll decide when they can come back. I'll call myself whatever I like. I am not a pure Libertarian or any pure bred ideophile. I would gladly trade economic hardship to weed out those that don't belong.
This will be easy to do once the economy implodes. We won't be able to afford any such aid anyway.
Speculation again. You seem to do a lot of that. How often are you wrong?
Just like we blasted Osama bin Laden into oblivion?
Not yet. Did you think we will give up that easy? God, I hope not.
Our viewpoints are different but that doesn't necessarily make either of us wrong, or right. I simply am tired of helping an ungrateful world and getting blamed for everything that goes wrong. We aren't the police of the world. Hell, we can't even fix our own problems. What makes us so damn cocky we think we have the answer for everyone else?
Oh, and no alliances with anyone.
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Anonymous
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1446141 - 04/10/03 10:08 AM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Bro, it's post 9/11. I have changed my mind on a lot of things. See my answer to Echo.
Cheers,
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: ]
#1446362 - 04/10/03 11:41 AM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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MM did you know that native americans can now be traced to the earliest man in Africa via DNA? In fact all humans on earth including the Aboriginies in Australia are all from Africa.
In fact the 'natives' of the America's got there through a long journey over many thousands of years to NA through the Alaska corridor from Siberia. Its estimated that it was a small group of people who made that tough journey and were the first inhabitants of the Americas.. Natives in the America's are descendants of such brave and amazingly determined people who took such a paralous journey.
Not to say those who settled North America weren't horrible to the natives, but that is far in the past and I'd hope you don't feel anger still over something so far in the past.
I'm actually a direct descendant of the Vikings who first settled North America until they were forced out by the Indians in a famous story in the Saga's of a misunderstanding. The vikings actually lived peacfully with the Indians until that incident.
I'm sad that you think immigration is such a harmfull thing, considering all you have today is thanks to Immigrants. How is the INS a dismal failure?
I know 9/11 is a horrible tragedy, but my god its 3000 people dead out of a country of almost 300 million.
Imagine how many chinese died building your railroads, how many Irish died fighting your war of independance... The blood that built your country is that of immigrants.
Immigrants are the lifeblood of North America, and those who suffered much hardship to move to North America for a better life shouldn't be shunned or talked about in such an unfair way.
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EchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: ]
#1446365 - 04/10/03 11:41 AM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Our INS policy is an abysmal failure.
Your opinion, and not one backed by any argument or reasoning.
Most immigrants come here for nepotism.
Evidence? I know I'll be waiting forever for it.
While it is true that some come here and raise the level of economic growth I would trade that in a minute to take care of "our own".
How do you define "our own"? Does that include native-born welfare recipients?
Besides, I am Native American. What do you think I really think of the scum that has crossed the seas to MY shore?
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Are you trying to pull rank, or something? I personally would have been happy to see Europeans stay right where they were in Europe and leave the Americas alone. I would have been happy to avert the genocide of indigenous peoples. But there are some complicating factors: the "Native Americans" are themselves migrants from Asia, and there is evidence that they in their turn had massacred the previous (now long gone) inhabitants of this land. Secondly, the United States of America is the creation of European settlers, not Natives. I do not mean to dismiss the very important contributions that the rich native traditions have made to American life and culture, but in the millennia that the Native Americans were here they never created anything even remotely resembling the United States, and there is no evidence to suggest that they would have. A nation is more than mere land--it is civil society and political institutions and economic infrastructure, etc.
peculation again. This isn't about money. It's about principle. This is a post 9/11 America. Time for those who don't belong to leave. We'll decide when they can come back.
Not speculation at all. According to the 2000 census, 18.6 million people in this country are foreign-born non-citizens. That's 6.6% of the entire population. Most of these people hold jobs, and many of them are vital to the economy. Many of them have permanent residence status and are in the process of applying for citizenship. Some, like Evolving's wife, are permanent residents but not interested in citizenship. So, according to your thinking, they should all be forcibly deported. I suppose that includes Evolving's wife, who is a Dutch citizen married to an American. Why? Because, according to you, "everything changed" after 9/11. So a law-abiding Dutch woman and a law-abiding Indian software engineer at Microsoft and a law-abiding Chinese physicist and a law-abiding Iranian heart surgeon will all be forced from their homes at gunpoint. The INS will go from door to door ferreting immigrants out the way the SS used to do in Nazi Germany. Great solution, dude. Try to put things in a little perspective. 3000 people died in the WTC attacks. 50,000 people a year die on this nation's highways every year. 10,000 die per year from handguns. 200,000 die per year from incorrect medical treatment (the AMA's own figures). 400,000 die per year from smoking. While we're at it, why not deport all the automakers, all of the handgun owners, all of the doctors and nurses, and all of the tobacco executives?
Not yet. Did you think we will give up that easy? God, I hope not.
Who ever said I did? Even if we get bin Laden, however, there are many more waiting to take his place.
I simply am tired of helping an ungrateful world and getting blamed for everything that goes wrong. We aren't the police of the world. Hell, we can't even fix our own problems. What makes us so damn cocky we think we have the answer for everyone else?
I agree with this statement completely. It is, however, a complete non-sequiter in the context of your statements regarding massive, forcible deportation of 18.6 million immigrants. US foreign policy and immigration policy are two separate issues.
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Azmodeus
Seeker
Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 19 years, 3 months
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1446387 - 04/10/03 11:47 AM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
I can't believe the US focused on Iraq, because the real issue should have been and should be now N. Korea.
Bullies only pick fights with smaller oponents they know they can easily beat up.
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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.
Lest we forget. "
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Azmodeus
Seeker
Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 19 years, 3 months
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1446400 - 04/10/03 11:50 AM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
the only way to keep power is to keep that 'tension' with outside neighbours so that the focus of the people is on the 'enemies' of the state and not their own horrific problems within the country.
Well said thor! But that sounds alot like what the bush "regime" is doing to america now. Concentrate on the "terrorist threat", so that civil rights may be removed and total control established.
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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.
Lest we forget. "
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Azmodeus
Seeker
Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 19 years, 3 months
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: StopThat]
#1446403 - 04/10/03 11:51 AM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Left alone they will develop nukes to sell to the highest bidder.Just like they do with missles now.
Didn't america provide weapons to other countries also? ie: iraq? And wasn't it chemical weapons also?
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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.
Lest we forget. "
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Azmodeus]
#1446414 - 04/10/03 11:56 AM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Quote:
the only way to keep power is to keep that ?tension? with outside neighbours so that the focus of the people is on the ?enemies? of the state and not their own horrific problems within the country. Well said thor! But that sounds alot like what the bush "regime" is doing to america now. Concentrate on the "terrorist threat", so that civil rights may be removed and total control established.
Its absolutely what Bush is doing, the war, the using of 9/11 to pass horrible laws like the patriot act and nobody dares challenge these things since people fear sounding unpatriotic.
9/11 was horrible, but tragedies happen all over the world, the American/Canada innocence ended that day and people really need to keep things in perspective.
This comic says it best, eerie who said it and how much relevance it has today:
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EchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1446473 - 04/10/03 12:13 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Thanks for posting that, Thor. I read that same quote somewhere else the other day, and it really is frightening how true it is and how relevant to the current situation.
Fear liquidates intelligence, it seems.
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Azmodeus
Seeker
Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 19 years, 3 months
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: EchoVortex]
#1446511 - 04/10/03 12:22 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Keep in mind that North Korea only reactivated their nuclear program after Bush started waving the big stick at Iraq. Being named as a member of the "Axis of Evil" might have had something to do with it as well.
As the leader of n.korea, whateverthefuckhisnameis, has a duty to his people to protect them from american devils. AMERICA has labelled them "evil" and the "enemy" and being so in the eyes of the worlds most powerful nation, is good cause to up your defenses to a nuclear level so that they dont just come in and "liberate" your people. Iraq disarmed for the UN, and america invaded agianst the UN's approval....what does that say to a country like n.korea with sanctions against nuclear weapons?
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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.
Lest we forget. "
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 16,259
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: EchoVortex]
#1446512 - 04/10/03 12:22 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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One of my favourite quotes..."Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded with patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader, and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."
Also another quote I found that I think brings up some good points...
"The trumped-up war in Iraq is power madness and pure stupidity. The fact that it is monstrously immoral ought to count for something, too... Our only real safety lies in crafting an American success story that does not rely upon the repression of the world's people and the destruction of their systems of self-determination for the sake of our industrial needs, but instead upon their rising health and wealth and freedom. Otherwise a state of constant war is indeed inevitable. We know that. We choose against it."
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: EchoVortex]
#1446517 - 04/10/03 12:23 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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But there are some complicating factors: the "Native Americans" are themselves migrants from Asia,
Yep - crossed the bering straits from RUSSIA of all places. Shock, horror...
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Rono]
#1446559 - 04/10/03 12:33 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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I love those quotes Rono, especially that one from Ceasar, ring so true today as it did then.
Since we are a bit off topic, did anyone here see that excellent 2hr special on PBS called the Journey of Man that shows through DNA how mankind went from Africa to settle the whole world.
What was really neat was to see a guy who a had a direct link to a man who settled his region 10,000 yrs before.
The whole show was incredibly interesting and when the show the pictures of people with the gene 'code' they were looking for together from all over you certainly see the family resemblance.
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Evolving
Resident Cynic
Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: EchoVortex]
#1446781 - 04/10/03 01:26 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
...in the millennia that the Native Americans were here they never created anything even remotely resembling the United States, and there is no evidence to suggest that they would have.
I disagree. Have you heard of the Iroquois Confederacy? It lasted centuries longer than the United States has (so far). There is evidence which leads some to believe that some very important concepts of their political structure influenced the founders of the U.S. I recommend that you read Forgotten Founders By Bruce E. Johansen. The entire book is online at the link I provided.
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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
Edited by Evolving (04/10/03 01:27 PM)
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Anonymous
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1446927 - 04/10/03 02:13 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Unfortunately I don't have time to discuss this in depth with both you and Echo. I really enjoy this discussion too!
Both of you guys are great.
Pardon me for the appeal to sympathy but:
In 1890, just 112 years ago Wounded Knee took place. This is certainly within the boundaries of the USA. This was not an isolated incident but the tail end of a bloody campaign of genocide that has marked the USA forever. The fact is they stole this land from the Natives who had been here 20,000 years.
Nearly 300 Natives lost their lives including men, women, and children in what must have been one of the worst acts of American predation in its history.
Wounded Knee, a wound that will not heal
WOKIKSUYE CANKPE OPI
We have been here about 20,000 years since the white man came. They have been here but a moment.
The War against us is still being fought:
http://tn.essortment.com/siegewoundedkn_rmpq.htm
"Siege at wounded knee 1973
In the summer of 1968, two hundred members of the Native American community came together for a meeting to discuss various issues that Indian people of the time were dealing with on an everyday basis. Among these issues were, police brutality, high unemployment rates, and the Federal Government’s policies concerning American Indians.
From this meeting came the birth of the American Indian Movement, commonly known as AIM. Wth this came the emergence of AIM leaders, such as Dennis Banks and Clyde Bellecourt to name a few.
Little did anyone know that AIM would become instrumental in shaping not only the path of Native Americans across the country, but the eyes of the world would follow AIM protests through the occupation at Alcatraz through the Trail of Broken Treaties, to the final conflict of the 1868 Sioux treaty of the Black Hills. This conflict would begin on February 27, 1973 and last seventy-one days. The occupation became known in history, as the Siege at Wounded Knee.
It began as the American Indian’s stood against government atrocities, and ended in an armed battle with US Armed Forces. Corruption within the BIA and Tribal Council at an all time high, tension on the Pine Ridge Indian reservation was on the increase and quickly getting out of control. With a feeling close to despair, and knowing there was nothing else for them to do, elders of the Lakota Nation asked the American Indian Movement for assistance. This bringing to a head, more than a hundred years of racial tension and a government corruption.
On that winter day in 1973, a large group of armed Native Americans reclaimed Wounded Knee in the name of the Lakota Nation. For the first time in many decades, those Oglala Sioux ruled themselves, free from government intervention, as is their ancient custom. This would become the basis for a TV movie, “Lakota Woman” the true story of Mary Moore Crowdog, and her experiences at the Wounded Knee occupation.
During the preceding months of the Wounded Knee occupation, civil war brewed among the Oglala people. There became a clear-cut between the traditional Lakota people and the more progressive minded government supporters. The traditional people wanted more independence from the Federal Government, as well as honoring of the 1868 Sioux treaty, which was still valid. According to the 1868 treaty, the Black Hills of South Dakota still belonged to the Sioux people, and the traditional people wanted the Federal Government to honor their treaty by returning the sacred Black Hills to the Sioux people.
Another severe problem on the Pine Ridge reservation was the strip mining of the land. The chemicals used by the mining operations were poisoning the land and the water. People were getting sick, and children were being born with birth defects. The tribal government and its supporters encouraged the strip mining and the sale of the Black Hills to the Federal Government. It is said that at that point in time, the tribal government was not much more than puppets of the BIA. The sacred Black Hills, along with many other problems, had become a wedge that would tear apart the Lakota Nation. Violent confrontations between the traditional people and the GOONS (Guardians of Our Oglala Nation) became an everyday occurrence.
The young AIM warriors, idealistic and defiant, were like a breath of fresh air to the Indian people, and their ideas quickly caught on. When AIM took control of Wounded Knee, over seventy-five different Indian Nations were represented, with more supporters arriving daily from all over the country. Soon United States Armed Forces in the form of Federal Marshals, and the National Guard surrounded the large group. All roads to Wounded Knee were cut off, but still, people slipped through the lines, pouring into the occupied area.
The forces inside Wounded Knee demanded an investigation into misuse of tribal funds; the goon squad’s violent aggression against people who dared speak out against the tribal government. In addition they wanted the Senate Committee to launch an investigation into the BIA and the Department of the Interior regarding their handling of the affairs of the Oglala Sioux Tribe. The warriors also demanded an investigation into the 371 treaties between the Native Nations and the Federal Government, all of which had been broken by the United States.
The warriors that occupied Wounded Knee held fast to these demands and refused to lay down arms until they were met. The government cut off the electricity to Wounded Knee and attempted to keep all food supplies from entering the area.
For the rest of that winter, the men and women inside Wounded Knee lived on minimal resources, while they fought the armed aggression of Federal Forces. Daily, heavy gunfire was issued back and forth between the two sides, but true to their word, they refused to give up.
During the Wounded Knee occupation, they would live in their traditional manner, celebrating a birth, a marriage and they would mourn the death of two of their fellow warriors inside Wounded Knee. AIM member, Buddy Lamont was hit by M16 fire and bled to death inside Wounded Knee.
AIM member, Frank Clearwater was killed by heavy machine gun fire, inside Wounded Knee.
Twelve other individuals were intercepted by the goon squad while back packing supplies into Wounded Knee; they disappeared and were never heard from again. Though the government investigated, by looking for a mass grave in the area, when none was found the investigation was soon dismissed.
Wounded Knee was a great victory for the Oglala Sioux as well as all other Indian Nations. For a short period of time in 1973, they were a free people once more.
After 71 days, the Siege at Wounded Knee had come to an end; with the government making nearly 1200 arrests. But this would only mark the beginning of what was known as the “Reign of Terror” instigated by the FBI and the BIA. During the three years following Wounded Knee, 64 tribal members were unsolved murder victims, 300 harassed and beaten, and 562 arrests were made, and of these arrests only 15 people were convicted of any crime. A large price to pay for 71 days as a free people on the land of one’s ancestors.
And if that is not enough:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=wounded+knee+1973
This is the Wound that cannot heal. Our necks are under the white man's jackboot as we speak.
Peace (pipe)
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Anonymous
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: EchoVortex]
#1446940 - 04/10/03 02:16 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Good comments! Unfortunately I am in the middle of the primary election cycle and my time is often consumed with it. I do not have time for a response at the moment but will get back to this as soon as I can.
Cheers,
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Anonymous
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Rono]
#1446959 - 04/10/03 02:20 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Those are good quotes from you and Thor but don't forget.
We were attacked.
And whoever would have been in power would have used it to their benefit. That's the way our government is.
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Anonymous
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Evolving]
#1446966 - 04/10/03 02:22 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Thanks Bro. I didn't have time to include that.
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Azmodeus
Seeker
Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 19 years, 3 months
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: ]
#1447011 - 04/10/03 02:32 PM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
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Mabye its time to start a new thread? We're not talking about n.korea anymore, but i found the last few posts quite interesting.
--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.
Lest we forget. "
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EchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Evolving]
#1447666 - 04/10/03 06:17 PM (21 years, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
Quote:
...in the millennia that the Native Americans were here they never created anything even remotely resembling the United States, and there is no evidence to suggest that they would have.
I disagree. Have you heard of the Iroquois Confederacy? It lasted centuries longer than the United States has (so far). There is evidence which leads some to believe that some very important concepts of their political structure influenced the founders of the U.S. I recommend that you read Forgotten Founders By Bruce E. Johansen. The entire book is online at the link I provided.
You're right. By saying "nothing even remotely resembling the United States" I went overboard. I have no doubt that the beliefs and practices of various tribes had a profound impact not only on the Founding Fathers but on American culture as a whole. Ian Frazier, in his moving and funny book *On the Rez*, argues that much of the American spirit of individualism and egalitarianism (i.e., not kowtowing to authority) comes from the Native Americans. Let me repeat it once again: I would have been just as happy if the English had never colonized the Americas and the present-day United States didn't even exist (that's assuming, of course, that the Spaniards and French exercised the same restraint and didn't just take over North America instead). I grew up in the Pacific Northwest surrounded by native American culture and, for what it is worth, *Black Elk Speaks* is one of my favorite books in the world and I highly recommend it to everyone.
But no amount of counterfactual history or revisionism is going to change to fact that the United States is FUNDAMENTALLY a culture grounded in English and Scottish philosophy (Locke, Smith, et al.), European (Judeo-Christian) religion, and Western (Aristotle through Hawking) science and technology. Native American culture exerted a deep and far from negligible INFLUENCE on this cultural matrix, but the matrix is essentially European. And if the Europeans had never come here, America would be a far, far different place. Perhaps a BETTER place, who knows? I'm not making value judgments. But it would have certainly been DIFFERENT. As it is, we're stuck with the country we have, and the country we have is a nation of immigrants, and I still fail to see how expelling millions of innocent, hopeful people and turning America into some kind of fortress is actually going to be productive. The Libertarian Party platform by the way, last time I checked, supports open borders.
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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 Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Azmodeus]
#1448714 - 04/11/03 01:38 AM (21 years, 11 days ago) |
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Heh, the whole North Korea thing can wait on the back burner for a little bit longer. Cant it?
Its been simmering quite nicely.
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Edited by PsiloKitten (04/11/03 04:10 AM)
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Anonymous
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 Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: EchoVortex]
#1449752 - 04/11/03 12:45 PM (21 years, 11 days ago) |
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Ok, here's a quick reply.
Obviously you did your homework and I didn't. It seems my ideas about immigration were more about emotion than facts or reason. So until I do the due diligence necessary I have to say you have the better argument.
As far as saying there will be another Osama after we take care of this one you are probably correct. I think this is because our foreign policies need to be drastically improved.
Until they are I think we need to stay out of other people's business.
Thanks for the rebuttal.
Cheers,
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: ]
#1449915 - 04/11/03 01:40 PM (21 years, 11 days ago) |
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Saw an excellent program last night on PBS called Frontline, here is the show and loads of good reading.
Interesting how the former Clinton people consider N. Korea a crisis situation and that it has to be solved in months not years in order to avoid a disaster.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/kim/
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Anonymous
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1450151 - 04/11/03 02:45 PM (21 years, 11 days ago) |
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Thanks!
I have something for you too if you have a VCR. It is a documetary from Frontline about my people called, "In the Spirit of Crazy Horse". I would like it if you were interested in viewing it. It will help you understand me a little better I think.
Pm me if you are interested.
And thanks again for the link.
Cheers,
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EchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: ]
#1451517 - 04/12/03 12:00 AM (21 years, 10 days ago) |
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You're a bigger man than I am, Mr. Mushrooms.
I understand your feelings. I live in New York and I will never forget 9/11 either. I will never forget seeing those F-15s flying overhead in the blinding sunshine, I will never forget the lines at the grocery store while people stockpiled, not knowing when our little island would open up again, I will never forget the sickening smell of smoke that lingered in the air for days, I will never forget visiting Ground Zero FIVE MONTHS after 9/11 (I just couldn't bring myself to go there any earlier than that--that's how long it took to process the trauma) and seeing trucks from the morgue STILL driving away with freshly discovered corpses.
My heart broke on 9/11 and keeps breaking every day from now until then. This is all so much bigger than politics or the United States or Islam or any of these words we throw around--it points to some insoluble tragedy of human existence that we seem unable to shake. God, there has to be a better way.
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EchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1451662 - 04/11/03 06:20 PM (21 years, 10 days ago) |
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Thanks for the post Thor. I saw the program too and thought it was fascinating--and very frightening. I recommend everybody check out that link.
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: EchoVortex]
#1451707 - 04/12/03 02:13 AM (21 years, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Thanks for the post Thor. I saw the program too and thought it was fascinating--and very frightening. I recommend everybody check out that link.
I wish more people saw it, because I really can't think many people would be so against a war with that regime if they saw the show.
To see the Clinton crew calling this a crisis and saying it would need to be solved in months; that was the most sobering thing of all.
The thing is we know the US would win without a doubt, but yes there would be a lot of casualties. However do we choose appeasement for much longer or deal with the problem now when we don't have to worry about nuclear attack.
Containment, appeasment, diplomatic means; are not going to work... This is an issue of take action before its too late.
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Anonymous
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: EchoVortex]
#1452425 - 04/12/03 12:32 PM (21 years, 10 days ago) |
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Aww thanks Echo. 
I have always appreciated your posts. I think you are a very thoughtful individual. I prize reason and know when I need to recant.
I am a former New Yorker. My parents moved me there in 1958 and I still remember playing on Jones Beach and finding my first Horseshoe crab. I moved my family there in 1985 and made enough money I retired to the mountains of Colorado in a few years.
Still, NYC is in my blood.
Fortunately for me we do not have television reception so I was unable to watch 9/11 until my wife bought me a copy of the CNN documentary for Xmas this past year. I cried my ass off when I saw it for the first time and even reading your post made my eyes mist and put a lump in my throat.
From time to time I visit to go to the John Lennon vigil in December but I haven't been back since 9/11. Eventually I will go, probably this year, and see Ground Zero.
It is not a visit I really want to make. And yet, I know I will.
Cheers,
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: ]
#1452864 - 04/12/03 03:20 PM (21 years, 10 days ago) |
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If you are a person of empathy at all.. Ground Zero is by far the saddest place on US soil. I was born and raised in a little town about 30 minutes out of NYC. Upon returning there the month after September 11th a part of me broke that can never be repaired. As the search for friends and relatives became bleak and the body parts started telling of identities, standing there looking at the spikes of the towers inbedded in the ground-- I was reminded of america in so many ways.. an america who participates in a foreign policy that makes people so angry that 9/11 has become a monument to our failed foreign relations. I was also reminded of an america of humans giving unselfishly of themselves, digging through the wreckage and fighting for hope. In the days that followed, NYC was kinder and gentler, it was raw to the world.. not just the hidden treasures of the back alleys and side streets. But the compassion of its every day joe.
I wonder how it is now that the wreckage has been cleared. Are there still small children wearing gas masks on some bizzarre school trip? Spontaneous outbreaks of tears from unknown wounds?
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Anonymous
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1453813 - 04/12/03 10:16 PM (21 years, 9 days ago) |
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Thank you Psilo for sharing that.
I am glad to know that so many of us share that common bond. That was a very moving post.
Personal Cheers,
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zeronio
Stranger
Registered: 10/16/01
Posts: 2,349
Loc: Slovenia
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1456312 - 04/14/03 03:43 AM (21 years, 8 days ago) |
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What's the possibility that if N. Korea goes nuclear they actually attack someone? Why would they do it? It's quite obvious that firing a sigle nuclear missile would mean total destruction of their country.
You'd start war to prevent an impossible situation.
It's different if you say that the Korean leaders should be removed to free the people. I'd would support that, but only after we free the people who still suffering in "friendly" countries. Wouldn't it be much easier to first influence the countries that USA has under control to stop violating human rights and become democratic? After that happens then I will start to believe in good intentions of the world's only superpower.
Edited by zeronio (04/14/03 03:56 AM)
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Azmodeus
Seeker
Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 19 years, 3 months
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: EchoVortex]
#1457178 - 04/14/03 01:44 PM (21 years, 8 days ago) |
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9/11 was unfortunate, but i think the real tradgedy is americas responce to the inccident. The increased "terror" security, and a never-ending war on terrorism to help the war trade, and to panick americans into giving away thier freedoms for the illusion of security. 
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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.
Lest we forget. "
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: ]
#1461411 - 04/15/03 06:22 PM (21 years, 6 days ago) |
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An excellent program tonight on PBS you all should watch, its actually part two tonight but this one is on the Nuclear threat and part one was biological/chemical threats to humanity.
http://www.pbs.org/avoidingarmageddon/
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sunycheeba416
cheeba times
Registered: 04/04/03
Posts: 5
Last seen: 20 years, 10 months
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Xlea321]
#1462403 - 04/15/03 11:13 PM (21 years, 6 days ago) |
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ill tell you what i would do if i was n. korea. i would keep bitch slapping the US until its down. and in the meantime id keep strengthening my weapons of mass destruction and military.
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first you gotta hatch, then you gotta fly.. watcha gonna do when you gotta die. -me dats who
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Azmodeus
Seeker
Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 19 years, 3 months
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: sunycheeba416]
#1464100 - 04/16/03 02:35 PM (21 years, 6 days ago) |
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Sounds like a resonable course of pre-emptive defense!
I certainly wouldn't listen to the UN sanctions. Iraq did, and they had nothing to defend themselves when america and britain invaded. Nuclear weapons are n.koreas' only chance of having a defense capable of detering america.
--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.
Lest we forget. "
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