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InvisibleThorA
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Rono]
    #1446559 - 04/10/03 12:33 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I love those quotes Rono, especially that one from Ceasar, ring so true today as it did then.

Since we are a bit off topic, did anyone here see that excellent 2hr special on PBS called the Journey of Man that shows through DNA how mankind went from Africa to settle the whole world.

What was really neat was to see a guy who a had a direct link to a man who settled his region 10,000 yrs before.

The whole show was incredibly interesting and when the show the pictures of people with the gene 'code' they were looking for together from all over you certainly see the family resemblance.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1446781 - 04/10/03 01:26 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

...in the millennia that the Native Americans were here they never created anything even remotely resembling the United States, and there is no evidence to suggest that they would have.



I disagree. Have you heard of the Iroquois Confederacy? It lasted centuries longer than the United States has (so far). There is evidence which leads some to believe that some very important concepts of their political structure influenced the founders of the U.S. I recommend that you read Forgotten Founders By Bruce E. Johansen. The entire book is online at the link I provided.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (04/10/03 01:27 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
    #1446927 - 04/10/03 02:13 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Unfortunately I don't have time to discuss this in depth with both you and Echo.  I really enjoy this discussion too! :smile:

Both of you guys are great.

Pardon me for the appeal to sympathy but:

In 1890, just 112 years ago Wounded Knee took place.  This is certainly within the boundaries of the USA.  This was not an isolated incident but the tail end of a bloody campaign of genocide that has marked the USA forever.  The fact is they stole this land from the Natives who had been here 20,000 years.







Nearly 300 Natives lost their lives including men, women, and children in what must have been one of the worst acts of American predation in its history.

Wounded Knee, a wound that will not heal


WOKIKSUYE CANKPE OPI

We have been here about 20,000 years since the white man came.  They have been here but a moment.

The War against us is still being fought:

http://tn.essortment.com/siegewoundedkn_rmpq.htm

"Siege at wounded knee 1973


In the summer of 1968, two hundred members of the Native American community came together for a meeting to discuss various issues that Indian people of the time were dealing with on an everyday basis. Among these issues were, police brutality, high unemployment rates, and the Federal Government&#8217;s policies concerning American Indians.

From this meeting came the birth of the American Indian Movement, commonly known as AIM. Wth this came the emergence of AIM leaders, such as Dennis Banks and Clyde Bellecourt to name a few.

Little did anyone know that AIM would become instrumental in shaping not only the path of Native Americans across the country, but the eyes of the world would follow AIM protests through the occupation at Alcatraz through the Trail of Broken Treaties, to the final conflict of the 1868 Sioux treaty of the Black Hills. This conflict would begin on February 27, 1973 and last seventy-one days. The occupation became known in history, as the Siege at Wounded Knee.


It began as the American Indian&#8217;s stood against government atrocities, and ended in an armed battle with US Armed Forces. Corruption within the BIA and Tribal Council at an all time high, tension on the Pine Ridge Indian reservation was on the increase and quickly getting out of control. With a feeling close to despair, and knowing there was nothing else for them to do, elders of the Lakota Nation asked the American Indian Movement for assistance. This bringing to a head, more than a hundred years of racial tension and a government corruption.


On that winter day in 1973, a large group of armed Native Americans reclaimed Wounded Knee in the name of the Lakota Nation. For the first time in many decades, those Oglala Sioux ruled themselves, free from government intervention, as is their ancient custom. This would become the basis for a TV movie, &#8220;Lakota Woman&#8221; the true story of Mary Moore Crowdog, and her experiences at the Wounded Knee occupation.


During the preceding months of the Wounded Knee occupation, civil war brewed among the Oglala people. There became a clear-cut between the traditional Lakota people and the more progressive minded government supporters. The traditional people wanted more independence from the Federal Government, as well as honoring of the 1868 Sioux treaty, which was still valid. According to the 1868 treaty, the Black Hills of South Dakota still belonged to the Sioux people, and the traditional people wanted the Federal Government to honor their treaty by returning the sacred Black Hills to the Sioux people.


Another severe problem on the Pine Ridge reservation was the strip mining of the land. The chemicals used by the mining operations were poisoning the land and the water. People were getting sick, and children were being born with birth defects. The tribal government and its supporters encouraged the strip mining and the sale of the Black Hills to the Federal Government. It is said that at that point in time, the tribal government was not much more than puppets of the BIA. The sacred Black Hills, along with many other problems, had become a wedge that would tear apart the Lakota Nation. Violent confrontations between the traditional people and the GOONS (Guardians of Our Oglala Nation) became an everyday occurrence.


The young AIM warriors, idealistic and defiant, were like a breath of fresh air to the Indian people, and their ideas quickly caught on. When AIM took control of Wounded Knee, over seventy-five different Indian Nations were represented, with more supporters arriving daily from all over the country. Soon United States Armed Forces in the form of Federal Marshals, and the National Guard surrounded the large group. All roads to Wounded Knee were cut off, but still, people slipped through the lines, pouring into the occupied area.


The forces inside Wounded Knee demanded an investigation into misuse of tribal funds; the goon squad&#8217;s violent aggression against people who dared speak out against the tribal government. In addition they wanted the Senate Committee to launch an investigation into the BIA and the Department of the Interior regarding their handling of the affairs of the Oglala Sioux Tribe. The warriors also demanded an investigation into the 371 treaties between the Native Nations and the Federal Government, all of which had been broken by the United States.


The warriors that occupied Wounded Knee held fast to these demands and refused to lay down arms until they were met. The government cut off the electricity to Wounded Knee and attempted to keep all food supplies from entering the area.

For the rest of that winter, the men and women inside Wounded Knee lived on minimal resources, while they fought the armed aggression of Federal Forces. Daily, heavy gunfire was issued back and forth between the two sides, but true to their word, they refused to give up.

During the Wounded Knee occupation, they would live in their traditional manner, celebrating a birth, a marriage and they would mourn the death of two of their fellow warriors inside Wounded Knee. AIM member, Buddy Lamont was hit by M16 fire and bled to death inside Wounded Knee.

AIM member, Frank Clearwater was killed by heavy machine gun fire, inside Wounded Knee.


Twelve other individuals were intercepted by the goon squad while back packing supplies into Wounded Knee; they disappeared and were never heard from again. Though the government investigated, by looking for a mass grave in the area, when none was found the investigation was soon dismissed.


Wounded Knee was a great victory for the Oglala Sioux as well as all other Indian Nations. For a short period of time in 1973, they were a free people once more.

After 71 days, the Siege at Wounded Knee had come to an end; with the government making nearly 1200 arrests. But this would only mark the beginning of what was known as the &#8220;Reign of Terror&#8221; instigated by the FBI and the BIA. During the three years following Wounded Knee, 64 tribal members were unsolved murder victims, 300 harassed and beaten, and 562 arrests were made, and of these arrests only 15 people were convicted of any crime. A large price to pay for 71 days as a free people on the land of one&#8217;s ancestors.

And if that is not enough:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=wounded+knee+1973

This is the Wound that cannot heal.  Our necks are under the white man's jackboot as we speak.

Peace (pipe) :wink:
 


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Anonymous

Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1446940 - 04/10/03 02:16 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Good comments! Unfortunately I am in the middle of the primary election cycle and my time is often consumed with it. I do not have time for a response at the moment but will get back to this as soon as I can.

Cheers,


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Anonymous

Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Rono]
    #1446959 - 04/10/03 02:20 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Those are good quotes from you and Thor but don't forget.


We were attacked.

And whoever would have been in power would have used it to their benefit. That's the way our government is.


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Anonymous

Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Evolving]
    #1446966 - 04/10/03 02:22 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks Bro.  I didn't have time to include that. :smile:


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 19 years, 26 days
Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: ]
    #1447011 - 04/10/03 02:32 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Mabye its time to start a new thread? We're not talking about n.korea anymore, but i found the last few posts quite interesting.



--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Evolving]
    #1447666 - 04/10/03 06:17 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

...in the millennia that the Native Americans were here they never created anything even remotely resembling the United States, and there is no evidence to suggest that they would have.



I disagree. Have you heard of the Iroquois Confederacy? It lasted centuries longer than the United States has (so far). There is evidence which leads some to believe that some very important concepts of their political structure influenced the founders of the U.S. I recommend that you read Forgotten Founders By Bruce E. Johansen. The entire book is online at the link I provided.




You're right. By saying "nothing even remotely resembling the United States" I went overboard. I have no doubt that the beliefs and practices of various tribes had a profound impact not only on the Founding Fathers but on American culture as a whole. Ian Frazier, in his moving and funny book *On the Rez*, argues that much of the American spirit of individualism and egalitarianism (i.e., not kowtowing to authority) comes from the Native Americans. Let me repeat it once again: I would have been just as happy if the English had never colonized the Americas and the present-day United States didn't even exist (that's assuming, of course, that the Spaniards and French exercised the same restraint and didn't just take over North America instead). I grew up in the Pacific Northwest surrounded by native American culture and, for what it is worth, *Black Elk Speaks* is one of my favorite books in the world and I highly recommend it to everyone.

But no amount of counterfactual history or revisionism is going to change to fact that the United States is FUNDAMENTALLY a culture grounded in English and Scottish philosophy (Locke, Smith, et al.), European (Judeo-Christian) religion, and Western (Aristotle through Hawking) science and technology. Native American culture exerted a deep and far from negligible INFLUENCE on this cultural matrix, but the matrix is essentially European. And if the Europeans had never come here, America would be a far, far different place. Perhaps a BETTER place, who knows? I'm not making value judgments. But it would have certainly been DIFFERENT. As it is, we're stuck with the country we have, and the country we have is a nation of immigrants, and I still fail to see how expelling millions of innocent, hopeful people and turning America into some kind of fortress is actually going to be productive. The Libertarian Party platform by the way, last time I checked, supports open borders.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1448714 - 04/11/03 01:38 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Heh, the whole North Korea thing can wait on the back burner for a little bit longer.  Cant it?

Its been simmering quite nicely.  :wink:


--------------------


Edited by PsiloKitten (04/11/03 04:10 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1449752 - 04/11/03 12:45 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Ok, here's a quick reply.

Obviously you did your homework and I didn't. It seems my ideas about immigration were more about emotion than facts or reason. So until I do the due diligence necessary I have to say you have the better argument.

As far as saying there will be another Osama after we take care of this one you are probably correct. I think this is because our foreign policies need to be drastically improved.

Until they are I think we need to stay out of other people's business.

Thanks for the rebuttal.

Cheers,


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InvisibleThorA
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
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Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: ]
    #1449915 - 04/11/03 01:40 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Saw an excellent program last night on PBS called Frontline, here is the show and loads of good reading.

Interesting how the former Clinton people consider N. Korea a crisis situation and that it has to be solved in months not years in order to avoid a disaster.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/kim/



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Anonymous

Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
    #1450151 - 04/11/03 02:45 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks! :smile:

I have something for you too if you have a VCR.  It is a documetary from Frontline about my people called, "In the Spirit of Crazy Horse".  I would like it if you were interested in viewing it.  It will help you understand me a little better I think.

Pm me if you are interested.

And thanks again for the link.

Cheers,


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OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
    #1451662 - 04/11/03 06:20 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks for the post Thor. I saw the program too and thought it was fascinating--and very frightening. I recommend everybody check out that link.


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OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: ]
    #1451517 - 04/12/03 12:00 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

You're a bigger man than I am, Mr. Mushrooms.

I understand your feelings. I live in New York and I will never forget 9/11 either. I will never forget seeing those F-15s flying overhead in the blinding sunshine, I will never forget the lines at the grocery store while people stockpiled, not knowing when our little island would open up again, I will never forget the sickening smell of smoke that lingered in the air for days, I will never forget visiting Ground Zero FIVE MONTHS after 9/11 (I just couldn't bring myself to go there any earlier than that--that's how long it took to process the trauma) and seeing trucks from the morgue STILL driving away with freshly discovered corpses.

My heart broke on 9/11 and keeps breaking every day from now until then. This is all so much bigger than politics or the United States or Islam or any of these words we throw around--it points to some insoluble tragedy of human existence that we seem unable to shake. God, there has to be a better way.


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InvisibleThorA
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
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Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1451707 - 04/12/03 02:13 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Thanks for the post Thor. I saw the program too and thought it was fascinating--and very frightening. I recommend everybody check out that link.




I wish more people saw it, because I really can't think many people would be so against a war with that regime if they saw the show.

To see the Clinton crew calling this a crisis and saying it would need to be solved in months; that was the most sobering thing of all.

The thing is we know the US would win without a doubt, but yes there would be a lot of casualties. However do we choose appeasement for much longer or deal with the problem now when we don't have to worry about nuclear attack.

Containment, appeasment, diplomatic means; are not going to work... This is an issue of take action before its too late.


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Anonymous

Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1452425 - 04/12/03 12:32 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Aww thanks Echo. :blush:

I have always appreciated your posts.  I think you are a very thoughtful individual.  I prize reason and know when I need to recant.

I am a former New Yorker.  My parents moved me there in 1958 and I still remember playing on Jones Beach and finding my first Horseshoe crab.  I moved my family there in 1985 and made enough money I retired to the mountains of Colorado in a few years.

Still, NYC is in my blood.

Fortunately for me we do not have television reception so I was unable to watch 9/11 until my wife bought me a copy of the CNN documentary for Xmas this past year.  I cried my ass off when I saw it for the first time and even reading your post made my eyes mist and put a lump in my throat.

From time to time I visit to go to the John Lennon vigil in December but I haven't been back since 9/11.  Eventually I will go, probably this year, and see Ground Zero.

It is not a visit I really want to make.  And yet, I know I will.  :frown:

Cheers, 


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: ]
    #1452864 - 04/12/03 03:20 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

If you are a person of empathy at all.. Ground Zero is by far the saddest place on US soil. I was born and raised in a little town about 30 minutes out of NYC. Upon returning there the month after September 11th a part of me broke that can never be repaired. As the search for friends and relatives became bleak and the body parts started telling of identities, standing there looking at the spikes of the towers inbedded in the ground-- I was reminded of america in so many ways.. an america who participates in a foreign policy that makes people so angry that 9/11 has become a monument to our failed foreign relations. I was also reminded of an america of humans giving unselfishly of themselves, digging through the wreckage and fighting for hope. In the days that followed, NYC was kinder and gentler, it was raw to the world.. not just the hidden treasures of the back alleys and side streets. But the compassion of its every day joe.

I wonder how it is now that the wreckage has been cleared. Are there still small children wearing gas masks on some bizzarre school trip? Spontaneous outbreaks of tears from unknown wounds?


--------------------


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Anonymous

Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1453813 - 04/12/03 10:16 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Thank you Psilo for sharing that.

I am glad to know that so many of us share that common bond. That was a very moving post.

Personal Cheers,


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Offlinezeronio
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Registered: 10/16/01
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Loc: Slovenia
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
    #1456312 - 04/14/03 03:43 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

What's the possibility that if N. Korea goes nuclear they actually attack someone? Why would they do it? It's quite obvious that firing a sigle nuclear missile would mean total destruction of their country.
You'd start war to prevent an impossible situation.

It's different if you say that the Korean leaders should be removed to free the people. I'd would support that, but only after we free the people who still suffering in "friendly" countries. Wouldn't it be much easier to first influence the countries that USA has under control to stop violating human rights and become democratic? After that happens then I will start to believe in good intentions of the world's only superpower.


Edited by zeronio (04/14/03 03:56 AM)


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 19 years, 26 days
Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1457178 - 04/14/03 01:44 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

9/11 was unfortunate, but i think the real tradgedy is americas responce to the inccident.  The increased "terror" security, and a never-ending war on terrorism to help the war trade, and  to panick americans into giving away thier freedoms for the illusion of security.  :tongue:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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