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EchoVortex
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1444920 - 04/09/03 10:26 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Keep in mind that North Korea only reactivated their nuclear program after Bush started waving the big stick at Iraq. Being named as a member of the "Axis of Evil" might have had something to do with it as well.
They made their motive perfectly clear: there's no way they're going to let themselves become a target of invasion and go the way of Iraq.
The war against Iraq has also convinced many hardliners in mainland China to begin beefing up their own military and preparing for a potential military conflict with the United States.
It's a simple matter of action and reaction. The United States' new policy of "pre-emptive" strikes on the basis of even circumstantial evidence has made the entire world, including many of our allies, consider the United States a signficant threat to world peace. Certainly our rivals are going to see it that way, and take whatever measures they believe are necessary to deter any potential attack by the US. The only way you can deter an attack by the most powerful conventional army in the world is by possessing weapons of mass destruction, preferably nuclear weapons capable of striking the United States. The foreign policy of the United States may have liberated the people of Iraq (from Saddam as well as from their oil) but it will in fact lead to a greater proliferation of WMD.
The United States should cut out the ridiculous Axis of Evil rhetoric and either leave N. Korea alone or offer economic aid in exchange for ending the nuclear program. The last proposal probably won't work however--it would have worked ten years ago (and it did) but there's no way that N. Korea will trust this administration.
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Anonymous
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Evolving]
#1444959 - 04/09/03 10:37 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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That's interesting. My ex-brother in law married my ex-sister in law and "bought" his citizenship. He is Palestinian.
I thought marriage made a person automatically a citizen.
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1445078 - 04/09/03 11:06 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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As someone said there are millions more dying every day in Africa than N.Korea. The US could help the situation overnight by dropping the debt and trying to reign back their catastrophic corporate influence in the area. No need to bomb anyone.
Of course the chances of Bush doing this are nil. Genuinely helping people doesn't justify what he really wants. Enormous increases in "defence" spending so you can give your corporate buddies enormous welfare cheques and looking tough for the next election.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: ]
#1445273 - 04/09/03 11:46 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
I thought marriage made a person automatically a citizen.
Nope, it makes it very easy to obtain permanent resident alien status (or some similar nomenclature) but that's as far as it goes. My wife sees no benefits in becoming an American citizen (we married for love - go figure). If the shit hits the fan in this country, it will make it easier to relocate NOT being a citizen. I've asked her to try to obtain dual citizenship for our children but that hasn't happened yet.
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD


Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: ]
#1445644 - 04/10/03 02:40 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
1. Close the doors. No more immigrants of any kind. 2. Kick everyone out that is not a citizen. Then lock the doors. 3. Refuse to give any kind of aid to anyone. No money, no military aid, no supplies. 4. Build up our military strength so that if anyone is stupid enough to fuck with us we blast them into oblivion
I'm sorry but that is truly and so horribly sad 
We couldn't be more opposites on this kind of thinking, and you know I'll always respect you for your thoughts and opinions..
For a nation built by immigrants why would you 'shut' the doors?
Oh well, I can understand why people think like this. I however am a futurist/optimist who believes one day we will think less as 'nations' and more as a global community where there is less focus on differences and nationialities.
Closing the door to the world only makes things worse, what the US needs to do in many cases as with the rest of the west is help Africa on the road to recovery (drop the debt), fix the problems created by the Iraqi war and work on relations with the Arabs of the world.
I guess the immigrant thing hit me most of all since my family and I were immigrants to Canada and I know a lot of people who have moved to Canada in the last 20 yrs.
These times may make people feel so vulnerable and wonder about our future under a super power like the US, but I think always in an optimistic light that things can be repaired.
Doom and gloom is no way of thinking
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GazzBut
Refraction

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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Xlea321]
#1445836 - 04/10/03 06:33 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Of course the chances of Bush doing this are nil. Genuinely helping people doesn't justify what he really wants. Enormous increases in "defence" spending so you can give your corporate buddies enormous welfare cheques and looking tough for the next election.
Well said Al!
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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Learyfan
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1445870 - 04/10/03 07:05 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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I say go into North Korea and blow those mother fuckers up like
"BOOM BOOM BOOM BAM BAM BAM, THAT'S FOR 9-11 MOTHER FUCKERS"
-------------------- -------------------------------- Mp3 of the month: The Apple-Glass Cyndrome - Someday
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EchoVortex
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: ]
#1445999 - 04/10/03 08:53 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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1. Close the doors. No more immigrants of any kind.
Economic suicide. The computer industry would collapse. So would graduate research in the sciences. The number of new doctors would shrink. Do you know how many immigrants fill important jobs in computer science, engineering, medicine, scientific research, etc.? Go visit a research university someday. It will open your eyes. This is to say nothing about the menial labor and entrepreneurship sectors of the economy. Immigrants work harder for less money than native-borns. They're not spoiled and coddled, they're hungry to succeed. They save money instead of going into credit-card debt. They start new businesses. Having an open door to immigrants is one of the smartest economic moves this country has ever made. It results in a brain drain that brings many of the best minds in the world to these shores, to our collective economic gain.
Besides, this is just plain un-American.
2. Kick everyone out that is not a citizen. Then lock the doors.
Even better. We can add the mind-boggling cost and economic chaos of forcibly deporting tens of millions of law-abiding residents. Please don't call yourself a Libertarian again.
3. Refuse to give any kind of aid to anyone. No money, no military aid, no supplies.
This will be easy to do once the economy implodes. We won't be able to afford any such aid anyway.
4. Build up our military strength so that if anyone is stupid enough to fuck with us we blast them into oblivion.
Just like we blasted Osama bin Laden into oblivion?
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Anonymous
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: EchoVortex]
#1446133 - 04/10/03 10:04 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Economic suicide. The computer industry would collapse. So would graduate research in the sciences. The number of new doctors would shrink. Do you know how many immigrants fill important jobs in computer science, engineering, medicine, scientific research, etc.? Go visit a research university someday. It will open your eyes. This is to say nothing about the menial labor and entrepreneurship sectors of the economy. Immigrants work harder for less money than native-borns. They're not spoiled and coddled, they're hungry to succeed. They save money instead of going into credit-card debt. They start new businesses. Having an open door to immigrants is one of the smartest economic moves this country has ever made. It results in a brain drain that brings many of the best minds in the world to these shores, to our collective economic gain.
Speculation. I've heard the argument. I remain unconvinced. Our INS policy is an abysmal failure. Most immigrants come here for nepotism. While it is true that some come here and raise the level of economic growth I would trade that in a minute to take care of "our own". Besides, I am Native American. What do you think I really think of the scum that has crossed the seas to MY shore?
Even better. We can add the mind-boggling cost and economic chaos of forcibly deporting tens of millions of law-abiding residents. Please don't call yourself a Libertarian again.
Speculation again. This isn't about money. It's about principle. This is a post 9/11 America. Time for those who don't belong to leave. We'll decide when they can come back. I'll call myself whatever I like. I am not a pure Libertarian or any pure bred ideophile. I would gladly trade economic hardship to weed out those that don't belong.
This will be easy to do once the economy implodes. We won't be able to afford any such aid anyway.
Speculation again. You seem to do a lot of that. How often are you wrong?
Just like we blasted Osama bin Laden into oblivion?
Not yet. Did you think we will give up that easy? God, I hope not.
Our viewpoints are different but that doesn't necessarily make either of us wrong, or right. I simply am tired of helping an ungrateful world and getting blamed for everything that goes wrong. We aren't the police of the world. Hell, we can't even fix our own problems. What makes us so damn cocky we think we have the answer for everyone else?
Oh, and no alliances with anyone.
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Anonymous
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1446141 - 04/10/03 10:08 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Bro, it's post 9/11. I have changed my mind on a lot of things. See my answer to Echo.
Cheers,
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD


Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: ]
#1446362 - 04/10/03 11:41 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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MM did you know that native americans can now be traced to the earliest man in Africa via DNA? In fact all humans on earth including the Aboriginies in Australia are all from Africa.
In fact the 'natives' of the America's got there through a long journey over many thousands of years to NA through the Alaska corridor from Siberia. Its estimated that it was a small group of people who made that tough journey and were the first inhabitants of the Americas.. Natives in the America's are descendants of such brave and amazingly determined people who took such a paralous journey.
Not to say those who settled North America weren't horrible to the natives, but that is far in the past and I'd hope you don't feel anger still over something so far in the past.
I'm actually a direct descendant of the Vikings who first settled North America until they were forced out by the Indians in a famous story in the Saga's of a misunderstanding. The vikings actually lived peacfully with the Indians until that incident.
I'm sad that you think immigration is such a harmfull thing, considering all you have today is thanks to Immigrants. How is the INS a dismal failure?
I know 9/11 is a horrible tragedy, but my god its 3000 people dead out of a country of almost 300 million.
Imagine how many chinese died building your railroads, how many Irish died fighting your war of independance... The blood that built your country is that of immigrants.
Immigrants are the lifeblood of North America, and those who suffered much hardship to move to North America for a better life shouldn't be shunned or talked about in such an unfair way.
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EchoVortex
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: ]
#1446365 - 04/10/03 11:41 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Our INS policy is an abysmal failure.
Your opinion, and not one backed by any argument or reasoning.
Most immigrants come here for nepotism.
Evidence? I know I'll be waiting forever for it.
While it is true that some come here and raise the level of economic growth I would trade that in a minute to take care of "our own".
How do you define "our own"? Does that include native-born welfare recipients?
Besides, I am Native American. What do you think I really think of the scum that has crossed the seas to MY shore?
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Are you trying to pull rank, or something? I personally would have been happy to see Europeans stay right where they were in Europe and leave the Americas alone. I would have been happy to avert the genocide of indigenous peoples. But there are some complicating factors: the "Native Americans" are themselves migrants from Asia, and there is evidence that they in their turn had massacred the previous (now long gone) inhabitants of this land. Secondly, the United States of America is the creation of European settlers, not Natives. I do not mean to dismiss the very important contributions that the rich native traditions have made to American life and culture, but in the millennia that the Native Americans were here they never created anything even remotely resembling the United States, and there is no evidence to suggest that they would have. A nation is more than mere land--it is civil society and political institutions and economic infrastructure, etc.
peculation again. This isn't about money. It's about principle. This is a post 9/11 America. Time for those who don't belong to leave. We'll decide when they can come back.
Not speculation at all. According to the 2000 census, 18.6 million people in this country are foreign-born non-citizens. That's 6.6% of the entire population. Most of these people hold jobs, and many of them are vital to the economy. Many of them have permanent residence status and are in the process of applying for citizenship. Some, like Evolving's wife, are permanent residents but not interested in citizenship. So, according to your thinking, they should all be forcibly deported. I suppose that includes Evolving's wife, who is a Dutch citizen married to an American. Why? Because, according to you, "everything changed" after 9/11. So a law-abiding Dutch woman and a law-abiding Indian software engineer at Microsoft and a law-abiding Chinese physicist and a law-abiding Iranian heart surgeon will all be forced from their homes at gunpoint. The INS will go from door to door ferreting immigrants out the way the SS used to do in Nazi Germany. Great solution, dude. Try to put things in a little perspective. 3000 people died in the WTC attacks. 50,000 people a year die on this nation's highways every year. 10,000 die per year from handguns. 200,000 die per year from incorrect medical treatment (the AMA's own figures). 400,000 die per year from smoking. While we're at it, why not deport all the automakers, all of the handgun owners, all of the doctors and nurses, and all of the tobacco executives?
Not yet. Did you think we will give up that easy? God, I hope not.
Who ever said I did? Even if we get bin Laden, however, there are many more waiting to take his place.
I simply am tired of helping an ungrateful world and getting blamed for everything that goes wrong. We aren't the police of the world. Hell, we can't even fix our own problems. What makes us so damn cocky we think we have the answer for everyone else?
I agree with this statement completely. It is, however, a complete non-sequiter in the context of your statements regarding massive, forcible deportation of 18.6 million immigrants. US foreign policy and immigration policy are two separate issues.
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Azmodeus
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1446387 - 04/10/03 11:47 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
I can't believe the US focused on Iraq, because the real issue should have been and should be now N. Korea.
Bullies only pick fights with smaller oponents they know they can easily beat up.
-------------------- "Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source. Lest we forget. "
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Azmodeus
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1446400 - 04/10/03 11:50 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
the only way to keep power is to keep that 'tension' with outside neighbours so that the focus of the people is on the 'enemies' of the state and not their own horrific problems within the country.
Well said thor! But that sounds alot like what the bush "regime" is doing to america now. Concentrate on the "terrorist threat", so that civil rights may be removed and total control established.
-------------------- "Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source. Lest we forget. "
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Azmodeus
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: StopThat]
#1446403 - 04/10/03 11:51 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Left alone they will develop nukes to sell to the highest bidder.Just like they do with missles now.
Didn't america provide weapons to other countries also? ie: iraq? And wasn't it chemical weapons also?
-------------------- "Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source. Lest we forget. "
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD


Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Azmodeus]
#1446414 - 04/10/03 11:56 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Quote:
the only way to keep power is to keep that ?tension? with outside neighbours so that the focus of the people is on the ?enemies? of the state and not their own horrific problems within the country. Well said thor! But that sounds alot like what the bush "regime" is doing to america now. Concentrate on the "terrorist threat", so that civil rights may be removed and total control established.
Its absolutely what Bush is doing, the war, the using of 9/11 to pass horrible laws like the patriot act and nobody dares challenge these things since people fear sounding unpatriotic.
9/11 was horrible, but tragedies happen all over the world, the American/Canada innocence ended that day and people really need to keep things in perspective.
This comic says it best, eerie who said it and how much relevance it has today:
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EchoVortex
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: Thor]
#1446473 - 04/10/03 12:13 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Thanks for posting that, Thor. I read that same quote somewhere else the other day, and it really is frightening how true it is and how relevant to the current situation.
Fear liquidates intelligence, it seems.
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Azmodeus
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: EchoVortex]
#1446511 - 04/10/03 12:22 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Keep in mind that North Korea only reactivated their nuclear program after Bush started waving the big stick at Iraq. Being named as a member of the "Axis of Evil" might have had something to do with it as well.
As the leader of n.korea, whateverthefuckhisnameis, has a duty to his people to protect them from american devils. AMERICA has labelled them "evil" and the "enemy" and being so in the eyes of the worlds most powerful nation, is good cause to up your defenses to a nuclear level so that they dont just come in and "liberate" your people. Iraq disarmed for the UN, and america invaded agianst the UN's approval....what does that say to a country like n.korea with sanctions against nuclear weapons?
-------------------- "Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source. Lest we forget. "
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Rono
DSYSB since '01


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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: EchoVortex]
#1446512 - 04/10/03 12:22 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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One of my favourite quotes..."Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded with patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader, and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."
Also another quote I found that I think brings up some good points... "The trumped-up war in Iraq is power madness and pure stupidity. The fact that it is monstrously immoral ought to count for something, too... Our only real safety lies in crafting an American success story that does not rely upon the repression of the world's people and the destruction of their systems of self-determination for the sake of our industrial needs, but instead upon their rising health and wealth and freedom. Otherwise a state of constant war is indeed inevitable. We know that. We choose against it."
-------------------- "Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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Xlea321
Stranger
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Re: North Korea - What would you do? [Re: EchoVortex]
#1446517 - 04/10/03 12:23 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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But there are some complicating factors: the "Native Americans" are themselves migrants from Asia,
Yep - crossed the bering straits from RUSSIA of all places. Shock, horror...
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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