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OfflineVsnares.Zappa
bend over


Registered: 05/04/11
Posts: 3,153
Last seen: 4 months, 18 days
Re: Dropping out of most of the game [Re: joemolloy]
    #14431986 - 05/10/11 09:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

These drugs are tools and the result  depends on the way you handle them.I genuinely believe that there is some positive aspects about psychedelics. It's not the key to ultimate knowledge.But nothing is.

In moderate use, it can enhance the creativity of the user. Steve Jobs,for example, created Apple and he did lsd, quite a few times. He sure gets pussy and money.but anyway, pussy + money does not equal happiness.
I think ''THE GAME'' is the true prison.

Edited by Vsnares.Zappa (05/11/11 03:04 AM)

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OfflineDr Cid
Boss


Registered: 05/09/11
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Re: Dropping out of most of the game [Re: Vsnares.Zappa]
    #14432134 - 05/10/11 09:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The game is whatever you make it.


--------------------



Different is the new normal

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Invisiblehelix
Idealist Thinker Musician Lover
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Registered: 09/13/10
Posts: 409
Re: Dropping out of most of the game [Re: Dr Cid]
    #14432186 - 05/10/11 09:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

joemolloy said:
Quote:

k00laid said:
Quote:

joemolloy said:
Fuck that, use your own intelligence and abilities to play their fucking game and change, bend, and break the rules so at least you can enjoy and maybe even look forward to playing it.




sry i wont screw the entire world like the international bankers are screwing us.




Then don't screw the world.  But that doesn't preclude you playing successfully and happily.  Open your mind a bit.




and being successful doesn't preclude being happy. But if you take into account all the ways in which capitalism and all of the ecological and sociological problems that come out of it thrives on the desire that we have to have the stuff that it's trying to sell us, then being "successful" in the conventional sense DOES include screwing the world over

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InvisiblePsilosomniac
Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 2,938
Re: Dropping out of most of the game [Re: joemolloy] * 1
    #14432210 - 05/10/11 10:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

joemolloy said:
These drugs scramble your shit.  I know you probably think your mind is opened now that you've experienced what psychedelics have to offer, but I argue they actually serve no positive benefit especially when it comes to one's ability to think clearly, insightfully, critically or logically.  Hell, one poster on here, strangerdanger, says the more he trips the more he wants to give the vagrant lifestyle a chance.  Is that the type of progress and life you want?  If so, by all means keep eating the shrooms and let the wind and your psychedelic inspired thoughts lead the way.

Or take a step back and reassess your new ideas with a sober mind.

The drugs tend to imprison rather than free.  They may open your mind to absolute nonsense but that handicaps you, no?  Its counter-intuitive to imagine these drugs as shackles rather than keys. Ain't that quite a psychedelic thought?




I think it definitely depends on the individual.  I mean, if you take psychedelics and come back thinking you would benefit from living a life abiding by the rules of some obscure Eastern religion, and that you shouldn't go to work, and play "the game", it turns you into a nonproductive member of society, which is obviously a bad thing, even if you do think that playing the game is sucking up to the man or whatever.

I just think if you come back less productive than before, it's not a good thing.  I think lots of people can take psychedelics and remain productive members of society while still believing they have benefited from the experience.  I think there's lots of potential for self improvement without decreasing your function in society.  This was a big thing I was thinking about:  do psychedelics turn you into an unproductive member of society?  I don't think this is always the case.  However, that doesn't mean it's never the case, and when it is, I would argue that its use is detrimental.  I have a similar belief in regards to escapism.  Once you start taking a drug to escape from your life, your drug use becomes an issue not only to society, but also to yourself.  People who use drugs for escapism are doing much more harm than they would care to admit.

Individual results may vary.  It's just like how milk isn't really bad for you, unless you are lactose intolerant.  That is an extreme case in which most people benefit, but you get the picture.  There are definitely some people who take their experiences as a message to live their lives in an unproductive way, and that's when things start to become and issue.  Before somebody comes in with "but unproductive just means you aren't playing the game" and all that other "fight the system" stuff, just as you said, being a productive member of society benefits you directly.  Even if you don't believe in playing the game, tough luck; you can't effectively avoid it.

I agree with much of what you have to say, but my beliefs differ in that it doesn't apply 100% of the time.  There are things that I think should be avoided in terms of psychedelic drug use.  I just don't think that they are shackles for every situation.  That's not to say they're ever keys to the locks of the universe, but they certainly can have their benefits that don't turn you into some spiritual eastern religious nutcase.

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Offlinek00laid
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Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 7 months, 6 days
Re: Dropping out of most of the game [Re: joemolloy]
    #14432240 - 05/10/11 10:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

joemolloy said:
Quote:

k00laid said:
Quote:

joemolloy said:
Fuck that, use your own intelligence and abilities to play their fucking game and change, bend, and break the rules so at least you can enjoy and maybe even look forward to playing it.




sry i wont screw the entire world like the international bankers are screwing us.




Then don't screw the world.  But that doesn't preclude you playing successfully and happily.  Open your mind a bit.




i'll play it as happily as i can.
but i dont want your version of the word success.

and not everyone does.


--------------------
AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!

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OfflineVsnares.Zappa
bend over


Registered: 05/04/11
Posts: 3,153
Last seen: 4 months, 18 days
Re: Dropping out of most of the game [Re: Dr Cid]
    #14432347 - 05/10/11 10:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


and being successful doesn't preclude being happy. But if you take into account all the ways in which capitalism and all of the ecological and sociological problems that come out of it thrives on the desire that we have to have the stuff that it's trying to sell us, then being "successful" in the conventional sense DOES include screwing the world over




I was referring to the game as in , being succesfull in a sociological way, like him

Quote:

it turns you into a nonproductive member of society, which is obviously a bad thing,



  :superiority:
Hmmmmm. the notion of ''Non-productivity''is entirely subjective.

Edited by Vsnares.Zappa (05/11/11 01:43 AM)

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Invisiblehelix
Idealist Thinker Musician Lover
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Registered: 09/13/10
Posts: 409
Re: Dropping out of most of the game [Re: Psilosomniac]
    #14432679 - 05/10/11 11:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Psilosomniac said:
Quote:

joemolloy said:
These drugs scramble your shit.  I know you probably think your mind is opened now that you've experienced what psychedelics have to offer, but I argue they actually serve no positive benefit especially when it comes to one's ability to think clearly, insightfully, critically or logically.  Hell, one poster on here, strangerdanger, says the more he trips the more he wants to give the vagrant lifestyle a chance.  Is that the type of progress and life you want?  If so, by all means keep eating the shrooms and let the wind and your psychedelic inspired thoughts lead the way.

Or take a step back and reassess your new ideas with a sober mind.

The drugs tend to imprison rather than free.  They may open your mind to absolute nonsense but that handicaps you, no?  Its counter-intuitive to imagine these drugs as shackles rather than keys. Ain't that quite a psychedelic thought?




if you take psychedelics and come back thinking you would benefit from living a life abiding by the rules of some obscure Eastern religion, and that you shouldn't go to work, and play "the game", it turns you into a nonproductive member of society, which is obviously a bad thing, even if you do think that playing the game is sucking up to the man or whatever.






But what if society is utter shit? I agree with and really like most of your post though - if you come back less productive than before it's not a good thing. But it seems to me that if you come back and decide to be more productive and fucked up societal and economic structures are benefitting from that productivity then it's also not a good thing.

However, you can be productive in ways that doesn't support those structures. You can start your own business, make art, grow your own food, live minimally, work with others in your community, know what you NEED to be happy and what you WANT to be happy and only take what you NEED. It seems to me that if you allow the psychedelic experience to go to its logical conclusion, these are essential steps in integration. Those paradigms collapse once everyone decides to stop contributing their energies towards it and towards things that have as little footing in them as possible

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Invisiblehelix
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Registered: 09/13/10
Posts: 409
Re: Dropping out of most of the game [Re: helix]
    #14432719 - 05/10/11 11:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Timothy describing "dropping out":

"Drop Out" meant self-reliance, a discovery of one's singularity, a commitment to mobility, choice, and change. Unhappily my explanations of this sequence of personal development were often misinterpreted to mean "Get stoned and abandon all constructive activity"

Modernity and "the game" does not stress singularity, self-reliance nor choice

Edited by helix (05/10/11 11:44 PM)

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InvisiblePsilosomniac
Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 2,938
Re: Dropping out of most of the game [Re: helix]
    #14432762 - 05/10/11 11:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Vsnares.Zappa said:
Quote:

if it turns you into a nonproductive member of society, which is obviously a bad thing,



  :superiority:
Hmmmmm. the notion of ''Non-productiveness''is entirely subjective.




Indeed it is!  And that's what makes this subject well... subjective!  You know what I mean;  it's a complicated issue.  There are different ways to view the idea of productivity, and there are different degrees of it.  It's such a massively complex issue.  I think, in general, being productive is a good thing.  Of course, being productive can be contributing to a society that you may or may not think is wrong.  It's entirely up to you.  The idea I'm trying to get across is the extremities.  The line is obviously blurred and hard to define, but I think it's safe to say that if it makes you completely isolated and, like I said, so much into spirituality and Eastern mysticism that you can't function in society enough to get by, then it becomes an issue.  It really is hard to make a line and decide whether specific instances are good or bad though, and I know what you mean.

Perhaps I was generalizing too much with that statement that it is obviously a bad thing, but what I meant to make clear was the unproductive part, meaning not necessarily less productive.  I think it's healthy to question the system under which society functions, and not blindly follow everything that's been set up.  That being said, it certainly is beneficial to an individual to be able to manipulate a corrupt system to get some good out of it, whether it is for their own benefit, the benefit of others, or the benefit of a community or society itself.  To put it in simple terms, I just don't think people should take psychedelics and become lazy bums, if you'll excuse the terminology :tongue2:

Quote:

aronf13 said:
But what if society is utter shit? I agree with and really like most of your post though - if you come back less productive than before it's not a good thing. But it seems to me that if you come back and decide to be more productive and fucked up societal and economic structures are benefitting from that productivity then it's also not a good thing.

However, you can be productive in ways that doesn't support those structures. You can start your own business, make art, grow your own food, live minimally, work with others in your community, know what you NEED to be happy and what you WANT to be happy and only take what you NEED. It seems to me that if you allow the psychedelic experience to go to its logical conclusion, these are essential steps in integration. Those paradigms collapse once everyone decides to stop contributing their energies towards it and towards things that have as little footing in them as possible




Most definitely I agree that we shouldn't contribute so much to corrupt systems.  However, the idea of corruption can often be subjective and even debatable.  There are systems set up that are undeniably corrupt, some by nature, but it's up to the individual to decide which aspects of society he or she supports.  Part of what I meant by productive was also personally productive; that is, not supporting society, but yourself.  Part of this is general laziness, but part of it is that "what's the point?" mentality.  If you decide that certain things just aren't worth it anymore, that can be a good or bad thing.  This is where the benefits really come in.  Psychedelics can really make you think about the things you do and whether or not those things are right, necessary, worth it etc.  You can really weed out the things you realize are complete bullshit.  Conversely, if you end up weeding out something arguably necessary, you have a problem.  The extreme of this is deciding nothing is worth doing but drugs.  It's unlikely, and extreme, but it's something we would all agree is not a good thing.  Take that to a lower level and consider somebody who decides they don't want to go to college and get that degree after all, because they're contributing to a system they now disagree with, and they don't want to play "the game".  Again, subjectivity;  perhaps getting that degree in political science is no longer so desirable, but perhaps getting that degree in engineering would be something nice to have if you live in the Bay Area of California.  It can diminish and change your goals, which could be, like I said, a good or bad thing.  It just has that potential to be a bad thing, which is why people need to really consider all the possibilities before doing these drugs.

Personally, I'm working towards possibly getting a degree in engineering; I'm currently undeclared.  I wouldn't want psychedelics ruining my goals.  I'm pretty firm in those goals, so I'm not really afraid of taking them and deciding engineering is contributing to a system that I don't like.  Hell, I already believe that the system under which we live has a plethora of issues that need to be resolved, and I most certainly question the mores and such that we function under.  If I didn't, I wouldn't be interested in psychedelics;  I'd just say drugs are bad.

Again, this entire thing is subjective, and this is my opinion on the matter;  I encourage people to challenge what I say because it gives me a chance to reevaluate my beliefs and refine them.

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Offlinemasterharf
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Registered: 11/09/10
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Loc: Michigan
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Re: Dropping out of most of the game [Re: helix]
    #14432788 - 05/10/11 11:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i wish someone would have informed me about this side effect of psychedelics before i took them....


--------------------
harf

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InvisiblePsilosomniac
Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 2,938
Re: Dropping out of most of the game [Re: masterharf]
    #14432809 - 05/11/11 12:04 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

masterharf said:
i wish someone would have informed me about this side effect of psychedelics before i took them....




Which one?  The part where it has the potential to diminish your desire to be integrated into society?

This is where it gets weird; when people decide that they wish they had that desire.  There are people who hate being a part of society and are glad they take action against it, there are people who are happy with contributing to all aspects of society, then there are people who are a mix.  People like you, who wish they could contribute to society, but just can't do it.  I don't know you, and I don't know your situation, but I would take you as one of the last group.

And that's by no means a bad thing.  It's like living in the Matrix, getting shown the real world, and expecting to become integrated into the Matrix again.  I can see how that would be disturbing, to say the least.  I can appreciate wanting to go back to blissfully living in society, but having difficulty.  I'm curious;  do you wish you could go back to the way you were before you ever took them?

*I use "contribute to society" in a very loose way.  Not contributing doesn't necessarily mean living in isolation.  Take it with a grain of salt.  Interpret it how you like.  The concept is theoretical in some ways, so it's hard to define what it really means to contribute to society.

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Offlinemasterharf
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Re: Dropping out of most of the game [Re: Psilosomniac]
    #14432835 - 05/11/11 12:11 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I mean, i know what i have to do to play the game. There was just one point that i completely lost any desire to do so though. Since then I've been able to get my shit together; however, it really is like the matrix analogy. i was unplugged from the views that i had before and thrust into a view of society that is free of my original ignorance. or is it corrupted by a new ignorance?

I don't necessarily wish I could go back to the way I was before I took them; yet, there is apart of me that wants that innate, capitalistic drive back that i had before.


--------------------
harf

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InvisiblePsilosomniac
Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 2,938
Re: Dropping out of most of the game [Re: masterharf]
    #14432859 - 05/11/11 12:23 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

masterharf said:
I mean, i know what i have to do to play the game. There was just one point that i completely lost any desire to do so though. Since then I've been able to get my shit together; however, it really is like the matrix analogy. i was unplugged from the views that i had before and thrust into a view of society that is free of my original ignorance. or is it corrupted by a new ignorance?

I don't necessarily wish I could go back to the way I was before I took them; yet, there is apart of me that wants that innate, capitalistic drive back that i had before.




That's the great angst of the situation.  There's something that is troubling about not being able to be a part of that drive, but there's that part of us that knows we are probably better off this way.  It would be just like the Matrix analogy;  we like knowing the Matrix isn't real, but there's that part of us that wishes we could go back into it and live in ignorant bliss.

Thanks for sharing :thumbup:.  I think yours is a good example of the plight of the psychonaut, so to speak  :laugh2:

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OfflineVsnares.Zappa
bend over


Registered: 05/04/11
Posts: 3,153
Last seen: 4 months, 18 days
Re: Dropping out of most of the game [Re: joemolloy]
    #14433002 - 05/11/11 01:11 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

joemolloy said:
And don't fool yourself into thinking shrooms give you an edge, they give you a retard handicap.



Are you talking from experience?

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OfflineSummerDaisies
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Re: Dropping out of most of the game [Re: Vsnares.Zappa]
    #14433013 - 05/11/11 01:14 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

what is this game?


--------------------
[quote]Abuse said:
summerfaggot is one of the biggest cunts on this site.[/quote]

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Invisibledrr
Female
Registered: 05/20/09
Posts: 8,444
Re: Dropping out of most of the game [Re: skatealex2]
    #14433033 - 05/11/11 01:21 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

skatealex2 said:
Anyone here ever take lsd or mushrooms and decide to drop out of most of the game?



If you answer yes than you know the meaning of this thread.    :psybong:


Reason I say 'most' of the game is cause I think for most people at least you have to be somewhat involved in some part of the game somehow unless you just sit on a couch all day /everyday. :syringe:



I've been out of the "game" that you speak of probably my whole life. In fact if we're talking about being sort of an outcast and not following all of the 'rules' of society, I'd say music has been at least as influential as psychedelics.

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Invisibledrr
Female
Registered: 05/20/09
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Re: Dropping out of most of the game [Re: SummerDaisies]
    #14433034 - 05/11/11 01:22 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

SummerDaisies said:
what is this game?



And I was wondering the same thing

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Offlineeasyrider
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Registered: 03/08/11
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Re: Dropping out of most of the game [Re: joemolloy]
    #14433220 - 05/11/11 02:51 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

joemolloy said:
The drugs tend to imprison rather than free.  They may open your mind to absolute nonsense but that handicaps you, no?  Its counter-intuitive to imagine these drugs as shackles rather than keys.




Do they really?  If they were the only instigator of transforming the usual egoistic hedonistic stream of thought into a sort of ascetic style of thinking, then I'd say maybe they do hinder us.  But because various people throughout history have abandoned the former stream of thought for the latter without the use of psychedelic substances, then I'd say that psychedelics are not the root of this transformation.

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OfflineVsnares.Zappa
bend over


Registered: 05/04/11
Posts: 3,153
Last seen: 4 months, 18 days
Re: Dropping out of most of the game [Re: easyrider]
    #14433231 - 05/11/11 02:57 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

easyrider said:
Quote:

joemolloy said:
The drugs tend to imprison rather than free.  They may open your mind to absolute nonsense but that handicaps you, no?  Its counter-intuitive to imagine these drugs as shackles rather than keys.




Do they really?  If they were the only instigator of transforming the usual egoistic hedonistic stream of thought into a sort of ascetic style of thinking, then I'd say maybe they do hinder us.  But because various people throughout history have abandoned the former stream of thought for the latter without the use of psychedelic substances, then I'd say that psychedelics are not the root of this transformation.



:thumbup:

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InvisibleFerdinando
Male

Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,682
Re: Dropping out of most of the game [Re: Vsnares.Zappa]
    #14433263 - 05/11/11 03:11 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

they are rather catalysts for extended mentality providing basis for more inclusive perspectives than those that normally arise in minds
the game.. well monkey see monkey do and
we want to be accepted by the group
and we are egoistic
you don't have to join in like everybody else
you can be sincere and natural and treat people like people and not objects


--------------------
with our love with our love we could save the world

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