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Offline4896744
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Re: How come nobody has sex with their parents? [Re: Poid]
    #14426195 - 05/09/11 06:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

Poid said:
What makes you assume that imprisoning and raping his daughter was the only way that he could find happiness?




Perhaps that was poorly worded. It was a way for him to find happiness, and given his situation it was inevitable.


Why does his situation indicate that it was inevitable? He could've found happiness through other means without having to torture others.


Quote:

iThink said:
It gave his personal experience some sort of satisfaction, and there is no objective basis for it being "wrong".


There is no objective right or wrong, I know this; his personal satisfaction was at the cost of others' health and well-being, and that is wrong IMO.




As to your first point, lets just agree to disagree on the issue of free will.

As to your second point, I think your premise is faulty. Let's look at the situation of say two people being lost in the wilderness. It gets to the point where you have to eat the other person to live. Your desire, in this case to continue living, takes precedence over the concerns of the other. You may even cause them extreme pain and emotional discomfort in your efforts to fulfill your want. How can you then arbitrarily draw the line as to when it isn't "right" for a desire of yours to take precedence over that of another?


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: How come nobody has sex with their parents? [Re: 4896744]
    #14426371 - 05/09/11 07:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

Poid said:
What makes you assume that imprisoning and raping his daughter was the only way that he could find happiness?




Perhaps that was poorly worded. It was a way for him to find happiness, and given his situation it was inevitable.


Why does his situation indicate that it was inevitable? He could've found happiness through other means without having to torture others.


Quote:

iThink said:
It gave his personal experience some sort of satisfaction, and there is no objective basis for it being "wrong".


There is no objective right or wrong, I know this; his personal satisfaction was at the cost of others' health and well-being, and that is wrong IMO.




As to your first point, lets just agree to disagree on the issue of free will.


So you're telling me that, since you believe there is no free will, you also believe that this means people shouldn't be held responsible for their actions?


Quote:

iThink said:
As to your second point, I think your premise is faulty. Let's look at the situation of say two people being lost in the wilderness. It gets to the point where you have to eat the other person to live. Your desire, in this case to continue living, takes precedence over the concerns of the other. You may even cause them extreme pain and emotional discomfort in your efforts to fulfill your want. How can you then arbitrarily draw the line as to when it isn't "right" for a desire of yours to take precedence over that of another?


This is a horrible analogy..you're assuming that he was suffering before he imprisoned his daughter, or that he would have suffered if he didn't imprison his daughter.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (05/09/11 08:12 PM)

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Offline4896744
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Re: How come nobody has sex with their parents? [Re: Poid]
    #14426469 - 05/09/11 07:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

So you're telling me that, since you believe there is no free will, you also believe that this means people shouldn't be held responsible for their actios?




actions* :nerd:

Could you please refresh me as to where I said that? I am not opposing this guy being put in prison, I honestly couldn't care less what happens to him. What I am saying is that there is nothing "wrong" about what he did. We are just better off as a society blocking off certain actions with laws. The only reason I agree with that statement is because it benefits me personally.

Quote:

This is a horrible analogy..you're assuming that he was suffering before he imprisoned his daughter, or that he would have suffered if he didn't imprison his daughter.




So you think that someone who experienced those types of urges didn't suffer because of them? Do you not think this brought incredible agony as an adolescent? Hell, most people suffer a considerable amount even if they are "normal".


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Edited by iThink (05/09/11 07:43 PM)

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InvisibleCups
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Re: How come nobody has sex with their parents? [Re: 1983] * 1
    #14426534 - 05/09/11 07:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

1983 said:

How ironic that they will put him in prison and let people have sex with him against his will because he imprisoned somebody and had sex with them against their will.




:lol:

Everything cums full circle.

:buttsex:


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: How come nobody has sex with their parents? [Re: 4896744]
    #14426628 - 05/09/11 08:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

So you're telling me that, since you believe there is no free will, you also believe that this means people shouldn't be held responsible for their actios?




actions* :nerd:


Oops. :blush:


Quote:

iThink said:
Could you please refresh me as to where I said that?


I assumed that that was what you were implying.


Quote:

iThink said:
I am not opposing this guy being put in prison, I honestly couldn't care less what happens to him. What I am saying is that there is nothing "wrong" about what he did.


I agree that there is nothing objectively wrong with what he did, because there is no objective morality--most people, though (myself included), would personally consider what he did as being wrong (subjectively).


Quote:

iThink said:
The only reason I agree with that statement is because it benefits me personally.


Which statement?


Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

This is a horrible analogy..you're assuming that he was suffering before he imprisoned his daughter, or that he would have suffered if he didn't imprison his daughter.




So you think that someone who experienced those types of urges didn't suffer because of them?


Not necessarily, no. They are just urges, many people can cope fine with not having all of their urges satisfied.


Quote:

iThink said:
Do you not think this brought incredible agony as an adolescent? Hell, most people suffer a considerable amount even if they are "normal".


I don't even know if he developed those urges by the time he became an adolescent, so I can't say..it's quite apparent that you are making many assumptions here. :wink:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (05/10/11 03:30 PM)

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Offlinepouihi
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Re: How come nobody has sex with their parents? [Re: Poid]
    #14428046 - 05/10/11 02:25 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Could you please refresh me as to where I said that? I am not opposing this guy being put in prison, I honestly couldn't care less what happens to him. What I am saying is that there is nothing "wrong" about what he did. We are just better off as a society blocking off certain actions with laws. The only reason I agree with that statement is because it benefits me personally.

It's not about laws, because those don't apply equally to everywhere.
It's about imposing your wishes onto to someone without respecting the "consented" part.
Comparing a situation of survival to this is completely unbalanced, this guy was married until he went to jail, he had several kids and had a specific obsession with that daughter to the point in which when she was old enough to run away he had to imprison her so she wouldn't, not only deprived her from a youth but repeatedly abused her for 24 years, made her live in a 55 m2 room and impregnated her with 8 children, and you think this has to do with morality?

Tell me one animal species in nature that commits such atrocities as humans do onto specimens of the same species?
We call ourselves civilized, we differentiate ourselves from other animals because we allege to be rational and yet you think acting as a lower specie than an irrational one is completely normal?

So you don't think that some people have mental problems? "Being a pedophile is completely normal, raping 2 months babies is normal, that's what makes them happy".


--------------------


"If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite."

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OfflineDunecat
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Re: How come nobody has sex with their parents? [Re: pouihi]
    #14428552 - 05/10/11 07:05 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I no longer judge anyone doing something that I haven't experienced. My gut tells me it's wrong, but my gut also told me marijuana was horrible, evil drug and that shrooms were for lowlife drop-outs.

The way our society is becoming increasingly sexually orientated and hedonistic, I will honestly not be surprised if all these taboos will disappear over the coming decades.

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InvisibleCups
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Re: How come nobody has sex with their parents? [Re: pouihi]
    #14428586 - 05/10/11 07:15 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

pouihi said:
Could you please refresh me as to where I said that? I am not opposing this guy being put in prison, I honestly couldn't care less what happens to him. What I am saying is that there is nothing "wrong" about what he did. We are just better off as a society blocking off certain actions with laws. The only reason I agree with that statement is because it benefits me personally.

It's not about laws, because those don't apply equally to everywhere.
It's about imposing your wishes onto to someone without respecting the "consented" part.
Comparing a situation of survival to this is completely unbalanced, this guy was married until he went to jail, he had several kids and had a specific obsession with that daughter to the point in which when she was old enough to run away he had to imprison her so she wouldn't, not only deprived her from a youth but repeatedly abused her for 24 years, made her live in a 55 m2 room and impregnated her with 8 children, and you think this has to do with morality?

Tell me one animal species in nature that commits such atrocities as humans do onto specimens of the same species?
We call ourselves civilized, we differentiate ourselves from other animals because we allege to be rational and yet you think acting as a lower specie than an irrational one is completely normal?

So you don't think that some people have mental problems? "Being a pedophile is completely normal, raping 2 months babies is normal, that's what makes them happy".




What iThink is getting at with the survival thing is that the guy was ding what he "had" to do to survive.  Even though what he did was far outside the realm of consensual acceptable behavior...it he had to do it and given the same set of circumstances he'd do it again.

Think about your own life...you've made choices that were sub"optimal".  If you could have made better ones at the time why didn't you?  Variations on a theme dude.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: How come nobody has sex with their parents? [Re: pouihi]
    #14429279 - 05/10/11 11:02 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

pouihi said:
Tell me one animal species in nature that commits such atrocities as humans do onto specimens of the same species?




Bank voles, house finches, wolf spiders and certain fish species frequently devour their offspring.  Female praying mantises eat the male after mating.  Chimpanzees often hunt down members of other tribes, kill them, and take over their land.

Quote:

[Martin Muller] ran through the forest towards the noise; when he burst into a clearing he saw 10 chimpanzees had captured and killed another.

"The pounding that they were doing was on his body. The front of the chimpanzee was covered with 30 or 40 puncture wounds and lacerations, the ribs were sticking up out of the rib cage because they had beaten on his chest so hard. They had ripped his trachea out, they had removed his testicles, they had torn off toenails and fingernails. It was clear that some of the males had held him down, while the others attacked."



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3317461/Apes-of-war...-is-it-in-our-genes.html

Animals are certainly not incapable of committing atrocities on members of their own species.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: How come nobody has sex with their parents? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14429747 - 05/10/11 01:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Diploid said:
Would you do a step-sister? How about a half-sister? :seeya:




Which half?




The half that looks like a fish.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Offlinepouihi
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Re: How come nobody has sex with their parents? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14429841 - 05/10/11 01:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Female praying mantises eat the male after mating.

This happens more commonly in mantises kept in captivity.
Any of the situations you described happens with a purpose, be it territorial or whatever.

Killing you offspring is one thing, keeping it captive and copulating with it for 24 years is completely different.
Besides, animals as said have an instinct that for some logical reason in their life cycle leads them to take those actions.

Humans have been calling themselves civilized for centuries, putting themselves in a pedestal above all other species yet they're the only that commit these atrocities onto others simply for hedonism.


--------------------


"If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite."

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Offline4896744
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Re: How come nobody has sex with their parents? [Re: pouihi]
    #14429992 - 05/10/11 02:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

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It must be quite convenient to be capable of only acknowledging parts of an argument.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: How come nobody has sex with their parents? [Re: 4896744]
    #14430085 - 05/10/11 02:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
It must be quite convenient to be capable of only acknowledging parts of an argument.




The nitpicker's school, so popular around here, of dissecting opposing arguments into incoherent fragments would never fly in a serious debate.

Just saying.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Offline4896744
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Re: How come nobody has sex with their parents? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14430126 - 05/10/11 02:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Quote:

iThink said:
It must be quite convenient to be capable of only acknowledging parts of an argument.




The nitpicker's school, so popular around here, of dissecting opposing arguments into incoherent fragments would never fly in a serious debate.

Just saying.




That was an error with the Shroomery. I just tried to quote what you said. The point of my statement was that you completely ignored one of decypher's sources.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: How come nobody has sex with their parents? [Re: 4896744]
    #14430155 - 05/10/11 02:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I did what now?


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Offlinei like cow poo
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Re: How come nobody has sex with their parents? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14430330 - 05/10/11 03:23 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

some people are selfish pricks. Those people have no place in humanity. That is all.:eek:

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: How come nobody has sex with their parents? [Re: pouihi]
    #14430384 - 05/10/11 03:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

pouihi said:
Humans have been calling themselves civilized for centuries, putting themselves in a pedestal above all other species yet they're the only that commit these atrocities onto others simply for hedonism.





Looks like hedonism to me. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: How come nobody has sex with their parents? [Re: Poid]
    #14430478 - 05/10/11 03:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Do animals suffer from guilty conscience?


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: How come nobody has sex with their parents? [Re: pouihi]
    #14430495 - 05/10/11 03:47 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

pouihi said:
Female praying mantises eat the male after mating.

This happens more commonly in mantises kept in captivity.
Any of the situations you described happens with a purpose, be it territorial or whatever.

Killing you offspring is one thing, keeping it captive and copulating with it for 24 years is completely different.




You completely ignored my quote about chimpanzees.

Quote:

pouihi said:
Besides, animals as said have an instinct that for some logical reason in their life cycle leads them to take those actions.

Humans have been calling themselves civilized for centuries, putting themselves in a pedestal above all other species yet they're the only that commit these atrocities onto others simply for hedonism.




It looks to me like those chimpanzees mentioned in the article that I posted committed atrocities out of sheer hedonism, but who's to say the other animals I mentioned didn't?


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Offlinepouihi
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Re: How come nobody has sex with their parents? [Re: deCypher]
    #14430566 - 05/10/11 04:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I stated for territorial purposes.
They slaughtered the male alpha in order to have a new one.
Was it violent? For sure, but male alphas are usually the strongest, and if you're going to kill one you might as well be sure it definitely gets killed.


--------------------


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