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Invisibleglobos
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Damiana - Turnera diffusa, Turnera ulmifolia seed pictures
    #14429711 - 05/10/11 02:50 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

[EDIT]
The seeds shown in this post as Turnera diffusa might well be Turnera ulmifolia. The seeds shown as T. ulmifolia might well be Sida spp. (probably Sida rhombifolia). Thanks to World Seed Supply for pointing it out. At the time of this editing (June 2012) and after one year of discussion, the situation isn't yet 100% figured out. I haven't edited the rest of this post. What we know for sure is that seeds looking like the second picture in this post surely aren't T. diffusa - and probably aren't a Turnera at all.
[/EDIT] - Original post begins

I'm posting this to clear up a somewhat obscure topic that comes out often. Many vendors sell Turnera seeds stating it is T. diffusa, while it actually is some other species - mostly T. ulmifolia as far as I can tell.

I've grown such seeds too - and now am the proud caretaker of some nice-looking Turnera ulmifolia plants. The few real Turnera diffusa seeds I got haven't germinated yet, and I tried several locations and times of year. IN fact, T. diffusa is known to be hard to germinate.

Turnera diffusa seeds.



Turnera spp. (probably Turnera ulmifolia) seeds.


Apart from the appearance of the seeds (very different) and plants (somewhat different), one huge difference between diffusa and ulmifolia is the scent. While diffusa has a strong, pleasant flavour, ulmifolia has next to none.

By the way, does anyone have reliable info on the activity of ulmifolia?  I suspect it's similar to diffusa despite the difference in flavour.


Edited by globos (06/09/12 10:32 PM)


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OfflineSynthettek
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Re: Damiana - Turnera diffusa, Turnera ulmifolia seed pictures [Re: globos]
    #14429738 - 05/10/11 02:59 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

The only thing I've heard about Damiana is that when taken regularly can increase volume of a male's semen.  I don't know how this actually holds up in real life, that's just what I have stuck in my memory about Damiana.  LOL


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Invisibleglobos
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Re: Damiana - Turnera diffusa, Turnera ulmifolia seed pictures [Re: Synthettek]
    #14429800 - 05/10/11 03:11 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Real damiana is good stuff, and not only for that. I'm wondering about the other species, though, and couldn't find reliable sources.


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Re: Damiana - Turnera diffusa, Turnera ulmifolia seed pictures [Re: globos]
    #14430270 - 05/10/11 05:11 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Interesting topic! Thanks for the pictures. But my question is, are you sure these are the real Turnera Diffusa seeds (1st picture)? Because non of yours germinated yet. Where did you get this info? I tried searching pictures of Damiana seeds on google, without much success.

Well I hope you're right, since my seeds look the same as the first picture. Although I can't interpret the size of the seeds. The size of my seeds is maximum 2mm (google says: 1 millimeter = 0.0393700787 inches).

Well I'll keep my growlog up to date and we'll see what grows out of these seeds, hehe! :laugh:


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Re: Damiana - Turnera diffusa, Turnera ulmifolia seed pictures [Re: Poison Drink]
    #14431275 - 05/10/11 08:47 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

I've seen the seeds in the dried herb and yes they do look like this - except the striped surface texture is a bit less evident because they are, well, dried.


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Re: Damiana - Turnera diffusa, Turnera ulmifolia seed pictures [Re: globos]
    #14431322 - 05/10/11 08:57 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Ok thanks! The first two leaves of my seedlings begin to look like T. Diffusa leaves. I read on this one online shop's site that it's very difficult to find real Damiana seeds and a lot of shops sell Turnera ulmifolia seeds as Damiana. However it seems I got the right seeds..


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Invisibleglobos
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Re: Damiana - Turnera diffusa, Turnera ulmifolia seed pictures [Re: Poison Drink]
    #14431451 - 05/10/11 09:25 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

I didn't notice your remark about seed size - that's about right, yeah. Ulmifolia seeds are just slightly larger - 2.5 mm or so across. Good luck with your seedlings and keep the growlog up to date! :wink:


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Re: Damiana - Turnera diffusa, Turnera ulmifolia seed pictures [Re: globos]
    #14431663 - 05/10/11 10:09 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

globos said:
I didn't notice your remark about seed size - that's about right, yeah. Ulmifolia seeds are just slightly larger - 2.5 mm or so across.




Nice, well this seeds I have are maximum 2mm. I would say the average is between 1-1,5 mm. Very weird I get a quite normal germination ratio, while not one seed of you sprouted. And my growing conditions are far from optimal. But I'm thinking about getting a low wattage T5 tube. For some other plants I'm growing it's handy too. Well you were a great help already with the Diffusa/Ulmifolia topic, and I hope you will get some seeds germinated as well!


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Re: Damiana - Turnera diffusa, Turnera ulmifolia seed pictures [Re: globos]
    #16340691 - 06/06/12 01:16 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

If you are looking for good quality Damiana - Turnera diffusa seeds...check out Mod Edit: No non sponsor links allowed in the Ethno Garden. Read the forum rules.) they are in stock and the real deal.


Edited by karode13 (06/07/12 05:12 AM)


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Invisibleglobos
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Re: Damiana - Turnera diffusa, Turnera ulmifolia seed pictures [Re: bluginbiill]
    #16340983 - 06/06/12 02:48 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks for the info!

How do you know it's the real deal? Have you sown/grown them yourself? The picture on that page looks dangerously like ulmifolia to me. :-)

I've tried to order some of these seeds from a different vendor, and wrote them an email telling the story of my quest and ending with something to the effect of: "if it's not the real thing, please tell me right now so I can cancel the order." They replied "this item is out of stock at the moment." ;-)

Then I found another vendor, I got some seeds that looked right, and sowed them immediately. Now it's wait and see. I'll post the vendor when I'm satisfied the seeds are really Damiana.

Thanks again for bothering, I really appreciate that.


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Re: Damiana - Turnera diffusa, Turnera ulmifolia seed pictures [Re: globos]
    #16341626 - 06/06/12 05:04 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Maybe WSS will have them in the future:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15542656

Picture of cuttings at the end of the topic.


Edited by Poison Drink (06/08/12 05:22 AM)


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OfflineWorld Seed SupplyV
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Re: Damiana - Turnera diffusa, Turnera ulmifolia seed pictures [Re: Poison Drink]
    #16343216 - 06/06/12 10:28 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Your link is against the rules. But with that said, the picture on the link is of Ulmifolia. The price is a ripoff too.

The seeds I was growing that I had high hopes for turned out to be ulmifolia as well. I got them from someone who bought them from a seller who said they were from a botanical garden. Apparently, the seller lied about the details.  The person who I got them from did some "research" and found that the botanical gardens they were from had ulmifolia but not difussa.

But it's ironic that this post was revived today because I am repotting a successfully rooted damiana cutting today.  I had started rooting them months back. But it was over the winter months.  I am sure that affected the results. I lost a lot of them, and it took a very long time. But I have at least one with good roots.  I'll be checking more to see if they took hold. It's a very slow start, but at least it is going somewhere.  :thumbup:


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Re: Damiana - Turnera diffusa, Turnera ulmifolia seed pictures [Re: World Seed Supply]
    #16343683 - 06/06/12 11:51 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

World Seed Supply said:
Your link is against the rules.




Oh I didn't realize, my apologies!

Quote:

World Seed Supply said:
But it's ironic that this post was revived today because I am repotting a successfully rooted damiana cutting today.  I had started rooting them months back. But it was over the winter months.  I am sure that affected the results. I lost a lot of them, and it took a very long time. But I have at least one with good roots.  I'll be checking more to see if they took hold. It's a very slow start, but at least it is going somewhere.  :thumbup:




Awesome!

I wonder if the herb being sold as Damiana is the real deal, since I tried some of the powder on a few occasions without any effects whatsoever.


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Re: Damiana - Turnera diffusa, Turnera ulmifolia seed pictures [Re: Poison Drink]
    #16344611 - 06/07/12 05:18 AM (6 years, 6 months ago)

I don't think that comment was directed at you. bluginbiill had posted a non sponsor link which is against the forum rules. I removed the link.


Quote:

World Seed Supply said:
But I have at least one with good roots.  I'll be checking more to see if they took hold. It's a very slow start, but at least it is going somewhere.  :thumbup:






Sounds promising.


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Re: Damiana - Turnera diffusa, Turnera ulmifolia seed pictures [Re: karode13]
    #16344660 - 06/07/12 05:59 AM (6 years, 6 months ago)

There's also a link removed from my comment. I think it got deleted because it linked to the Ethnobotanical Grow Logs and Pictures section.


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Invisibleglobos
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Re: Damiana - Turnera diffusa, Turnera ulmifolia seed pictures [Re: World Seed Supply]
    #16344901 - 06/07/12 08:22 AM (6 years, 6 months ago)

@World Seed Supply

Quote:

World Seed Supply said:
The seeds I was growing that I had high hopes for turned out to be ulmifolia as well.




Ulmifolia and diffusa seeds can be told apart by simple visual inspection. The pictures in the first post are an accurate representation for all I know.

The seeds I recently acquired do look like the real thing, and the guy selling them honestly admitted they don't come from plants he grew personally. I'd sent him the same email "if not the real thing, please tell me right away."

I sowed them about one week ago, but no germination yet. I sowed some ulmifolia as a "control group". In my experience, ulmifolia thrives here.

Quote:

I am repotting a successfully rooted damiana cutting today.




Maybe it's not an appropriate question, but... how did you get hold of the cuttings?

Quote:

But I have at least one with good roots.  I'll be checking more to see if they took hold. It's a very slow start, but at least it is going somewhere.  :thumbup:




Good luck! I wish you success so that if everything here goes to the dogs, I'll know where to find some true seed at last :smirk:

@Poison Drink
I think your link was deleted by mistake. I think I know which thread you were pointing to, and it's totally legit and relevant as far as I can tell.


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Re: Damiana - Turnera diffusa, Turnera ulmifolia seed pictures [Re: globos]
    #16345176 - 06/07/12 10:13 AM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Actually man, the ID you presented is incorrect for the ulmifolia seeds. But I understand why you thought that.  I would have thought the same at one point. But to clarify based on what I've come to learn.....those were once thought to be ulmifolia seeds because they too were being sold as diffusa several years back. Apparently, they produce a plant with fairly similar (serrated) leaves and flowers. But the plant is most likely in the sida genus. When you look at the real ulmifolia, it's pretty blatant how different they are.  The best I can come up with as an ID for the ulmifolia imposter is sida rhombifolia.  So we have an imposter for the imposter. You gotta love that. :confused:

The seeds of the true ulmifolia are small and white/tan like the ones in the picture you have.  This is not the best pic, but I saved these four seeds, so you can do a comparison

 

They may not be exactly what you have. It is hard to tell from the pics we both provided. But you'll agree that it is definitely anything like the seeds you posted above.  When I got them I did think they looked a little bigger, longer and perhaps darker than what I've seen as turnera diffusa seeds. (I have seen them before. I've just never gotten any to grow.) But I figured at the time I got them that the plants would reveal the truth....and they did. 

Here is a picture of the resulting plant that was grown from those seeds. This seems to actually be a turnera ulmifolia plant. It makes sense given that the seeds are very similar, but not quite exactly what I know turnera diffusa seeds to be.  Now I am fairly confident these plants are ulmifolia. I am being cautious because I do not know all the different turnera species, and the leaf length also seems to vary between some pics.  We'll have a better idea when the flowers come.



Now the problem is that the ulmifolia shows up so often even in ID's of turnera diffusa that most people have no idea. There are just as many pictures show ulmifolia as diffusa as there are showing diffusa ad diffusa.  Even the link that was deleted above of what the poster thought was the "real deal" showed a picture of ulmifolia. 

I think the problem really traces back to common names vs. botanical names. Both of these plants are known commonly as "damiana".  They are both used for the same purposes by different people.  We actually (purposely) acquired a small amount of the dried foliage from a supplier who thought it was turnera diffusa. But he had no idea that it was ulmifolia until I told him. But he has a very large market for people who use this herb and buy it as damiana.

So my theory on the confusion was that back in the day people were using the common name of "damiana" for ulmifolia in some parts of the world.  Plants get passed around.  Then someone has a picture of his "damiana" that he wants to post up on the internet.  So maybe he wants to include the botanical name.  He or she looks up the botanical name of damiana and sees "turnera diffusa or turnera diffusa var. aphrodisiaca". Now the plant gets put up there with the wrong name.  From that point on, everyone that uses that picture as an ID gets misinformation. They figure they looked it up on the internet, so they take that as fact. Some of them may go ahead and do the same thing...and so the problem snowballs. 


@ Poison Drink... Don't let my statement about ulmifolia being sold as damiana cause any insecurity about the damiana herb market. There is a very obvious difference between ulmifolia, which is very leafy, and diffusa, which is thick and fluffy.  Just about everyone I've ever dealt with has the real herb.


As for the the cuttings, it seems that only the one took root. But the roots are well-formed. There's also one tiny piece with some small roots. The rest all rotted or dried out. I am certain I would have had better results had I started rooting them in the spring.  I got them from a very legitimate source with the intention of using them for some research. Hopefully, now that I've transplanted this cutting, the growth will speed up. But I probably won't be able to really work with them until next season.


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Re: Damiana - Turnera diffusa, Turnera ulmifolia seed pictures [Re: Poison Drink]
    #16349999 - 06/08/12 04:03 AM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Poison Drink said:
There's also a link removed from my comment. I think it got deleted because it linked to the Ethnobotanical Grow Logs and Pictures section.





I didn't edit any of your posts. It seems to have been another moderator. If you can't edit the post yourself then send me the link via PM and I'll put it back in.


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Re: Damiana - Turnera diffusa, Turnera ulmifolia seed pictures [Re: karode13]
    #16350209 - 06/08/12 05:29 AM (6 years, 6 months ago)

I wasn't making a fuss about it. But anyway, I fixed it.

Now that I read WSS's post again, I realize he wasn't talking about those latest cuttings he has. I was already thinking, those are Ulmifolia too? and the price was a rip off? :eek: :biggrin:


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Re: Damiana - Turnera diffusa, Turnera ulmifolia seed pictures [Re: Poison Drink]
    #16353252 - 06/08/12 08:50 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Yeh the plants in my last post are the same plants in http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15542656

I kept them in that same container until now.  I put one in the ground in the spring, but it stunted...so I wait til now to put the rest out.


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