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InvisibleMad_Larkin

Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 18,606
Re: Official OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD Thread!!!!!!!!! [Re: Poid]
    #14426000 - 05/09/11 06:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I wasn't shifting any goalposts, you just seem to have misinterpreted my words. I'll clarify my point of view: I don't think the capture of bin Laden was ever the aim. In other words, the intention was to murder him from the start.

We don't have any evidence that he threatened the SEALs, we have only the word of paid killers and corrupt politicians. Forgive me for mistrusting those two groups inherantly.

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InvisiblePoid
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Registered: 02/04/08
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Re: Official OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD Thread!!!!!!!!! [Re: Mad_Larkin]
    #14426094 - 05/09/11 06:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Mad_Larkin said:
I wasn't shifting any goalposts, you just seem to have misinterpreted my words. I'll clarify my point of view: I don't think the capture of bin Laden was ever the aim. In other words, the intention was to murder him from the start.


The intention may have originally been to kill him, but then it shifted..the intention eventually became to either kill, or capture him.


Quote:

Mad_Larkin said:
We don't have any evidence that he threatened the SEALs, we have only the word of paid killers and corrupt politicians. Forgive me for mistrusting those two groups inherantly.


I understand your mistrust, but to be fair, you don't have any evidence which suggests that he never made threating advancements towards the SEALs..if you did, I'd be very interested in looking it over. :smile:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Official OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD Thread!!!!!!!!! [Re: Mad_Larkin]
    #14426198 - 05/09/11 06:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Mad_Larkin said:
The fact that they were going to bomb him in the first place shows that capture was never a priority. The only reason Obama didn't want to bomb was because the death of bin Laden wouldn't be confirmed.




Well no, that doesn't follow.  First of all, they bomb lots of places.  Second of all they didn't know for sure it was him and third of all bombing would have destroyed much that was useful.  I find it extremely amusing that people who barely wander outside their gardens think they know what the most highly trained combat unit on earth would or could do when in a highly sensitive mission in what is essentially enemy territory with a broken chopper.
Quote:

 
The fact remains that bin Laden should have been put on trial rather than murdered.




Nope.  He was killed on the field of battle.  This is not a criminal investigation, it is a war.  We didn't declare it, he did.


--------------------

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Official OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD Thread!!!!!!!!! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14426215 - 05/09/11 06:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Mad_Larkin said: 
The fact remains that bin Laden should have been put on trial rather than murdered.



Nope.  He was killed on the field of battle.  This is not a criminal investigation, it is a war.  We didn't declare it, he did.


:thumbup:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Invisibletrampis
mad hatter
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Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 3,545
Re: Official OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD Thread!!!!!!!!! [Re: Poid]
    #14426216 - 05/09/11 06:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
I understand your mistrust, but to be fair, you don't have any evidence which suggests that he never made threating advancements towards the SEALs..if you did, I'd be very interested in looking it over. :smile:




What evidence do you need? He was an old man who probably suffered from a number of health issues. How difficult would it have been for them to just tackle him? If he was the brains behind all these horrible acts of terrorism, would it not be more beneficial to take him alive and get information out of him?


--------------------

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InvisibleMad_Larkin

Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 18,606
Re: Official OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD Thread!!!!!!!!! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14426232 - 05/09/11 06:48 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Mad_Larkin said:
I wasn't shifting any goalposts, you just seem to have misinterpreted my words. I'll clarify my point of view: I don't think the capture of bin Laden was ever the aim. In other words, the intention was to murder him from the start.


The intention may have originally been to kill him, but then it shifted..the intention eventually became to either kill, or capture him.


Quote:

Mad_Larkin said:
We don't have any evidence that he threatened the SEALs, we have only the word of paid killers and corrupt politicians. Forgive me for mistrusting those two groups inherantly.


I understand your mistrust, but to be fair, you don't have any evidence which suggests that he never made threating advancements towards the SEALs..if you did, I'd be very interested in looking it over. :smile:




We both agree that he should have been put on trial. That's good enough for me, arguing specifics isn't going to get us very far, I don't think.


Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Mad_Larkin said:
The fact that they were going to bomb him in the first place shows that capture was never a priority. The only reason Obama didn't want to bomb was because the death of bin Laden wouldn't be confirmed.




Well no, that doesn't follow.  First of all, they bomb lots of places.  Second of all they didn't know for sure it was him and third of all bombing would have destroyed much that was useful.  I find it extremely amusing that people who barely wander outside their gardens think they know what the most highly trained combat unit on earth would or could do when in a highly sensitive mission in what is essentially enemy territory with a broken chopper.




Point taken and agreed with, but he still should have been captured alive. He was unarmed and posed very little threat to a team of heavily armed and armoured soldiers.

Quote:


Quote:

  The fact remains that bin Laden should have been put on trial rather than murdered.




Nope.  He was killed on the field of battle.  This is not a criminal investigation, it is a war.  We didn't declare it, he did.




He was killed in his home while unarmed and suffering from illnesses. As far as I'm aware that's murder.

Edited by Mad_Larkin (05/09/11 06:50 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Official OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD Thread!!!!!!!!! [Re: Mad_Larkin]
    #14426253 - 05/09/11 06:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

From the last report there were weapons within reach, which I am quite sure is true.  He lived a violent life.  And you really have to consider where his home was and what the conditions were.  No time to fool around.


--------------------

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InvisibleMad_Larkin

Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 18,606
Re: Official OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD Thread!!!!!!!!! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14426270 - 05/09/11 06:55 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Any source for the weapons being within reach?

If that's true then fair enough. Again though, I have to be dubious, without photographic evidence all we have is the word of hired killers and professional liars.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Official OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD Thread!!!!!!!!! [Re: Mad_Larkin]
    #14426273 - 05/09/11 06:55 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

trampis said:
How difficult would it have been for them to just tackle him?


How difficult is it for you to put yourself in their shoes? They didn't know if he was armed or not, or if he would be compliant with his capture/arrest--he made threatening advancements towards them, and they decided in that moment that it's not worth the risk to "just tackle him" because he could be armed and dangerous. If any person considered to me potentially armed and dangerous makes threatening advancements to either military members or members of law enforcement, they are usually killed on the spot.


Quote:

trampis said:
If he was the brains behind all these horrible acts of terrorism, would it not be more beneficial to take him alive and get information out of him?


Yes, I agree, it would have been more beneficial. But, again, the SEALs decided that the potentially deadly risk he posed to them by making threatening advancements was too great, do they dealt with it accordingly.



Quote:

Mad_Larkin said:
We both agree that he should have been put on trial. That's good enough for me, arguing specifics isn't going to get us very far, I don't think.


I think it would have been more beneficial to have him alive in custody, but I don't think the SEALs acted out of line.


Quote:

Mad_Larkin said:
Quote:

Nope.  He was killed on the field of battle.  This is not a criminal investigation, it is a war.  We didn't declare it, he did.




He was killed in his home while unarmed and suffering from illnesses. As far as I'm aware that's murder.


That's not murder..murder is the unlawful killing of another human being with "malice aforethought". The killing of Osama was neither unlawful, or entirely premeditated...again, it was a "kill-or-capture" operation, and the reason they killed instead of captured him was because he posed an immediate threat and did not appear to be compliant with his capture/arrest.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Invisibletrampis
mad hatter
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Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 3,545
Re: Official OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD Thread!!!!!!!!! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14426274 - 05/09/11 06:55 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

as far as I'm concerned, there are terrorist living in a mansion within the united states...



--------------------

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InvisibleMad_Larkin

Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 18,606
Re: Official OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD Thread!!!!!!!!! [Re: Poid]
    #14426285 - 05/09/11 06:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Let's not get into a debate about "lawful" and "unlawful" killing. I'm likey to have a seizure.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Official OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD Thread!!!!!!!!! [Re: Mad_Larkin]
    #14426291 - 05/09/11 06:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

There's no debate, the killing of Osama did not break international law.

The killing of bin Laden: Was it legal?
Quote:

Was the killing of Osama bin Laden legal under international law?

The administration says yes, absolutely. Experts are unsure.

Attorney General Eric Holder told members of the Senate Judiciary Committee on Wednesday that the U.S. raid on bin Laden's compound was lawful "as an act of national self-defense."

Bin Laden "was the head of al Qaeda, an organization that had conducted the attacks of September the 11th," Holder said. "It's lawful to target an enemy commander in the field."

The raid "was conducted in a manner fully consistent with the laws of war," White House Press Secretary Jay Carney told reporters. Carney declined to offer specifics, but said "there is simply no question that this operation was lawful. ... (Bin Laden) had continued to plot attacks against the United States."

Presidents Bill Clinton, George W. Bush and Barack Obama had all issued orders to kill or capture the al Qaeda leader.

"The authority (during the raid) was to kill bin Laden," CIA Director Leon Panetta said Tuesday during an interview with PBS. "Obviously, under the rules of engagement, if he had in fact thrown up his hands, surrendered, and didn't appear to be representing any kind of threat, then they were to capture him. But they had full authority to kill him."

A number of experts have told CNN the question of actual legality may come down to bin Laden's response at the moment U.S. Navy SEALs burst into his room.

"If a person has his hands in the air, you're not supposed to kill him," said Steven Groves, a fellow at the conservative Heritage Foundation.

Navi Pillay, the United Nations high commissioner for human rights, told reporters she wants a "full disclosure" of the key facts.

U.S. officials have revised their account of the assault on the compound in Pakistan. Bin Laden was not armed during the 40-minute raid, they now say, but he put up resistance to U.S. forces.

The al Qaeda leader was moving at the time he was initially shot, according to a U.S. official who has seen military reports of the incident. The official declined to describe the movements more specifically.

Asked if bin Laden tried to grab a weapon or physically attack a commando, the official would say only that "he didn't hold up his hands and surrender."

Officials earlier claimed that bin Laden was an active participant in the firefight that erupted, implying that he was armed and gave the SEALs little choice but to shoot him.





--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Official OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD Thread!!!!!!!!! [Re: Mad_Larkin]
    #14426301 - 05/09/11 07:01 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Mad_Larkin said:
Any source for the weapons being within reach?

If that's true then fair enough. Again though, I have to be dubious, without photographic evidence all we have is the word of hired killers and professional liars.



Nothing, then, will satisfy you.  Oh well.  Seriously, think about who this guy was.  He was a violent man who lived by the sword.  Do you really think he DIDN'T have weapons all around him?  Fucking Pris sleeps with an AK.


--------------------

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Official OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD Thread!!!!!!!!! [Re: trampis]
    #14426309 - 05/09/11 07:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

trampis said:
as far as I'm concerned, there are terrorist living in a mansion within the united states...





That's pretty fucking stupid.  And also why no rational person gives two fucking shits what you're concerned about.


--------------------

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Invisibletrampis
mad hatter
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Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 3,545
Re: Official OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD Thread!!!!!!!!! [Re: Poid]
    #14426314 - 05/09/11 07:05 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Does it strike anyone else as odd that most of these people who take credit for osamas murder will also call themselves christians? I mean, didn't Jesus preach to turn the other cheek?



--------------------

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Official OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD Thread!!!!!!!!! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14426322 - 05/09/11 07:07 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Do you really think he DIDN'T have weapons all around him?  Fucking Pris sleeps with an AK.


:lol:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Invisiblelinkamathingy
Aspiring Mycologist


Registered: 10/27/10
Posts: 1,235
Re: Official OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD Thread!!!!!!!!! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14426332 - 05/09/11 07:10 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

trampis said:
as far as I'm concerned, there are terrorist living in a mansion within the united states...





That's pretty fucking stupid.  And also why no rational person gives two fucking shits what you're concerned about.




i think it's on the money. they push "OBL's" terror campaign in america far more than most americans ever heard from him, and don't give me that he attacked us crap. they push terrorizing stuff through their 4th estate.

and remember the end result is terrorist sleeper cells scare people. homegrown terror

Edited by linkamathingy (05/09/11 09:34 PM)

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InvisibleMad_Larkin

Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 18,606
Re: Official OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD Thread!!!!!!!!! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14426380 - 05/09/11 07:21 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
There's no debate, the killing of Osama did not break international law.

The killing of bin Laden: Was it legal?
Quote:

Was the killing of Osama bin Laden legal under international law?

The administration says yes, absolutely. Experts are unsure.

Attorney General Eric Holder told members of the Senate Judiciary Committee on Wednesday that the U.S. raid on bin Laden's compound was lawful "as an act of national self-defense."

Bin Laden "was the head of al Qaeda, an organization that had conducted the attacks of September the 11th," Holder said. "It's lawful to target an enemy commander in the field."

The raid "was conducted in a manner fully consistent with the laws of war," White House Press Secretary Jay Carney told reporters. Carney declined to offer specifics, but said "there is simply no question that this operation was lawful. ... (Bin Laden) had continued to plot attacks against the United States."

Presidents Bill Clinton, George W. Bush and Barack Obama had all issued orders to kill or capture the al Qaeda leader.

"The authority (during the raid) was to kill bin Laden," CIA Director Leon Panetta said Tuesday during an interview with PBS. "Obviously, under the rules of engagement, if he had in fact thrown up his hands, surrendered, and didn't appear to be representing any kind of threat, then they were to capture him. But they had full authority to kill him."

A number of experts have told CNN the question of actual legality may come down to bin Laden's response at the moment U.S. Navy SEALs burst into his room.

"If a person has his hands in the air, you're not supposed to kill him," said Steven Groves, a fellow at the conservative Heritage Foundation.

Navi Pillay, the United Nations high commissioner for human rights, told reporters she wants a "full disclosure" of the key facts.

U.S. officials have revised their account of the assault on the compound in Pakistan. Bin Laden was not armed during the 40-minute raid, they now say, but he put up resistance to U.S. forces.

The al Qaeda leader was moving at the time he was initially shot, according to a U.S. official who has seen military reports of the incident. The official declined to describe the movements more specifically.

Asked if bin Laden tried to grab a weapon or physically attack a commando, the official would say only that "he didn't hold up his hands and surrender."

Officials earlier claimed that bin Laden was an active participant in the firefight that erupted, implying that he was armed and gave the SEALs little choice but to shoot him.








As far as I'm aware use of military force against countries that you haven't decalred war with is forbidden under the Hague Convention. But that doesn't seem to deter the US, what with drone attacks against Pakistan, Yemen, and possibly Solamia. Drone attacks that kill more civilians than enemy combatants...

Arguing over whether the killing was lawful or not is foolish when you have an administration that regularly flaunts international law.




Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Mad_Larkin said:
Any source for the weapons being within reach?

If that's true then fair enough. Again though, I have to be dubious, without photographic evidence all we have is the word of hired killers and professional liars.



Nothing, then, will satisfy you.  Oh well.  Seriously, think about who this guy was.  He was a violent man who lived by the sword.  Do you really think he DIDN'T have weapons all around him?  Fucking Pris sleeps with an AK.




Like I said, photographic evidence will satisfy me.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Official OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD Thread!!!!!!!!! [Re: Mad_Larkin]
    #14426420 - 05/09/11 07:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Mad_Larkin said:
Quote:

Poid said:
There's no debate, the killing of Osama did not break international law.

The killing of bin Laden: Was it legal?
Quote:

Was the killing of Osama bin Laden legal under international law?

The administration says yes, absolutely. Experts are unsure.

Attorney General Eric Holder told members of the Senate Judiciary Committee on Wednesday that the U.S. raid on bin Laden's compound was lawful "as an act of national self-defense."

Bin Laden "was the head of al Qaeda, an organization that had conducted the attacks of September the 11th," Holder said. "It's lawful to target an enemy commander in the field."

The raid "was conducted in a manner fully consistent with the laws of war," White House Press Secretary Jay Carney told reporters. Carney declined to offer specifics, but said "there is simply no question that this operation was lawful. ... (Bin Laden) had continued to plot attacks against the United States."

Presidents Bill Clinton, George W. Bush and Barack Obama had all issued orders to kill or capture the al Qaeda leader.

"The authority (during the raid) was to kill bin Laden," CIA Director Leon Panetta said Tuesday during an interview with PBS. "Obviously, under the rules of engagement, if he had in fact thrown up his hands, surrendered, and didn't appear to be representing any kind of threat, then they were to capture him. But they had full authority to kill him."

A number of experts have told CNN the question of actual legality may come down to bin Laden's response at the moment U.S. Navy SEALs burst into his room.

"If a person has his hands in the air, you're not supposed to kill him," said Steven Groves, a fellow at the conservative Heritage Foundation.

Navi Pillay, the United Nations high commissioner for human rights, told reporters she wants a "full disclosure" of the key facts.

U.S. officials have revised their account of the assault on the compound in Pakistan. Bin Laden was not armed during the 40-minute raid, they now say, but he put up resistance to U.S. forces.

The al Qaeda leader was moving at the time he was initially shot, according to a U.S. official who has seen military reports of the incident. The official declined to describe the movements more specifically.

Asked if bin Laden tried to grab a weapon or physically attack a commando, the official would say only that "he didn't hold up his hands and surrender."

Officials earlier claimed that bin Laden was an active participant in the firefight that erupted, implying that he was armed and gave the SEALs little choice but to shoot him.








As far as I'm aware use of military force against countries that you haven't decalred war with is forbidden under the Hague Convention.


Pakistan had been working with us in the fight against al Qaeda for some time before the operation..they were embarassed that they themselves could not find Osama, I haven't read any reports that they consider Operation Neptune Spear to be an act of war against their country. If you're speaking of other acts of wars unrelated to Operation Neptune Spear, then I have no idea why because those are totally irrelevant.


Quote:

Mad_Larkin said:
But that doesn't seem to deter the US, what with drone attacks against Pakistan, Yemen, and possibly Solamia. Drone attacks that kill more civilians than enemy combatants...

Arguing over whether the killing was lawful or not is foolish when you have an administration that regularly flaunts international law.


Even if we have broken international law before, what relevance does that have to whether or not this particular act of war was unlawful?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Invisiblemaerigan
Female

Registered: 01/16/10
Posts: 1,709
Loc: Flag
Re: Official OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD Thread!!!!!!!!! [Re: trampis]
    #14426439 - 05/09/11 07:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

poidy poid...
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

trampis said:
How difficult would it have been for them to just tackle him?


How difficult is it for you to put yourself in their shoes? They didn't know if he was armed or not, or if he would be compliant with his capture/arrest--he made threatening advancements towards them, and they decided in that moment that it's not worth the risk to "just tackle him" because he could be armed and dangerous. If any person considered to me potentially armed and dangerous makes threatening advancements to either military members or members of law enforcement, they are usually killed on the spot.


Quote:

trampis said:
If he was the brains behind all these horrible acts of terrorism, would it not be more beneficial to take him alive and get information out of him?


Yes, I agree, it would have been more beneficial. But, again, the SEALs decided that the potentially deadly risk he posed to them by making threatening advancements was too great, do they dealt with it accordingly.






Dear Poid,
Exactly how much do you know about the way in which Navy SEALs are trained?
I'm curious because my uncle's best friend used to train them and I'm pretty sure that from what I've heard, they're supposed to be bad ass enough to accomplish any mission.  If the mission was actually to CAPTURE (as in first priority) or Kill, they would have captured.  Right?  But it seems that the mission was to kill and dump.  If they did in fact kill him and he wasn't already dead :shrug:
Love,
Me


Oh, say can you see by the dawn's early light
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars thru the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming?
And the rocket's red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
Oh, say does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

On the shore, dimly seen through the mists of the deep,
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines in the stream:
'Tis the star-spangled banner! Oh long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion,
A home and a country should leave us no more!
Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps' pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav'n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!


Quote:

trampis said:
Does it strike anyone else as odd that most of these people who take credit for osamas murder will also call themselves christians? I mean, didn't Jesus preach to turn the other cheek?






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