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Offlinezoomfan
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identity
    #14424887 - 05/09/11 02:22 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

is it more illogical to identify yourself as the universe or a human being?


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Thinking is dreaming wake up and enjoy the dream.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: identity [Re: zoomfan]
    #14425012 - 05/09/11 02:49 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Who says they're mutually exclusive?


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: identity [Re: zoomfan] * 1
    #14425187 - 05/09/11 03:25 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Do you mean as the entire universe? I think it would be illogical, and retarded to identify yourself as the entire universe; you clearly are not the entire universe.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: identity [Re: Poid]
    #14425213 - 05/09/11 03:31 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Rand McNally!


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: identity [Re: Poid]
    #14425430 - 05/09/11 04:23 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Do you mean as the entire universe? I think it would be illogical, and retarded to identify yourself as the entire universe; you clearly are not the entire universe.



Hmm, well, I would say that you are the entire Universe, sort of, in the same way you are a location that you find yourself in within a dream. For instance, say I find myself dreaming I'm in a gigantic stone labyrinth - I both am that labyrinth (the entire thing is a construct of my brain defined in relation to myself; if there was no me there would be no labyrinth), and am not that labyrinth (despite the fact that it is constructed by my brain, I identify as something other than it, namely a body as a perspective within the environment).


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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: identity [Re: NetDiver]
    #14425437 - 05/09/11 04:24 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

solipsism?


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: identity [Re: curious mouse]
    #14425462 - 05/09/11 04:30 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Not at all - just that whatever Universe any given person observes is their interpretation of the Universe, based on their experiences and beliefs. I have reason to believe that there are other interpretations besides my own.


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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: identity [Re: NetDiver]
    #14425467 - 05/09/11 04:30 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Not at all - just that whatever Universe any given person observes is their interpretation of the Universe, based on their experiences and beliefs. I have reason to believe that there are other interpretations besides my own.




this is a little different than your OP


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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: identity [Re: curious mouse]
    #14425471 - 05/09/11 04:31 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

wait..you weren't they op.


lol my bad.


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Offlineauxiliary
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Re: identity [Re: curious mouse]
    #14425510 - 05/09/11 04:40 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Being alive is identifying yourself as yourself, separate from everything else. God knows what will be made of this juxtaposition once you're dead.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: identity [Re: auxiliary]
    #14425581 - 05/09/11 04:55 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Do you mean as the entire universe? I think it would be illogical, and retarded to identify yourself as the entire universe; you clearly are not the entire universe.



Hmm, well, I would say that you are the entire Universe, sort of, in the same way you are a location that you find yourself in within a dream. For instance, say I find myself dreaming I'm in a gigantic stone labyrinth - I both am that labyrinth (the entire thing is a construct of my brain defined in relation to myself; if there was no me there would be no labyrinth), and am not that labyrinth (despite the fact that it is constructed by my brain, I identify as something other than it, namely a body as a perspective within the environment).


Why do you think that this comparison between dreams and reality is in any way useful? :undecided:

Each human being is only a part of the universe; whether or not they are a location that they find themselves in a dream is entirely irrelevant.



Quote:

auxiliary said:
Being alive is identifying yourself as yourself, separate from everything else. God knows what will be made of this juxtaposition once you're dead.


Great, yet another person who knows what God knows. :rolleyes:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: identity [Re: Poid]
    #14425681 - 05/09/11 05:11 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Why do you think that this comparison between dreams and reality is in any way useful? :undecided:

Each human being is only a part of the universe; whether or not they are a location that they find themselves in a dream is entirely irrelevant.



Why do I get the feeling you entirely missed my point?

If your brains were blown out, would the Universe you perceive still exist?


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OfflineVsnares.Zappa
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Re: identity [Re: NetDiver]
    #14425704 - 05/09/11 05:16 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

we are all part of one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively - Bill hicks


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: identity [Re: zoomfan]
    #14425720 - 05/09/11 05:19 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zoomfan said:
is it more illogical to identify yourself as the universe or a human being?




certainly its more illogical to identify as a human being...every sensory object within view is in some sense the "exterior universe," because obviously it's not that which is perceiving the objects.  You could identify as part of that experiential field (As body) or identify with the whole thing

Of course, like samuraidrifter said, the two aren't mutually exclusive, personally i identify very much as both.  Sometimes the line between things i did and things that are just happening around me is very fine.


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Offlinezoomfan
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Re: identity [Re: Poid]
    #14425828 - 05/09/11 05:38 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

my point was that the universe has become intelligent,this intelligence calls itself human and identifies itself with the human "package", but isnt it just the universe being intelligent? this intelligence can identify itself with many things, is it more reasonable for this intelligence to identify itself with the entirety of existence including the body/mind, rather than just the physical/mental expression of this intelligence.

this intelligence/human being is a product of the universe, to make a distinction between the two would be purely for name sake. like saying a rubber duck instead of just rubber. so if that rubber was somehow formed into a conscious duck, should it identify itself as just a conscious duck or just rubber that has become a conscious duck?


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: identity [Re: NetDiver]
    #14425840 - 05/09/11 05:41 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Why do you think that this comparison between dreams and reality is in any way useful? :undecided:

Each human being is only a part of the universe; whether or not they are a location that they find themselves in a dream is entirely irrelevant.



Why do I get the feeling you entirely missed my point?


Because I probably did. :shrug:


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
If your brains were blown out, would the Universe you perceive still exist?


No, but this doesn't mean that the entire universe would cease existing..is this what you are suggesting? :confused:

I agree that all of my perceptions are a part of me, but I don't think this means that I am the entire universe; my perceptions are not the entire universe.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: identity [Re: Poid]
    #14425861 - 05/09/11 05:44 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The Universe is the Universe that you perceive. It's completely meaningless and absurd to talk about the Universe separate from observation and interpretation.

When you say "The Universe" what you really mean is "my interpretation of the Universe." You have zero knowledge or experience of it outside of that qualification.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: identity [Re: NetDiver]
    #14425880 - 05/09/11 05:47 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
The Universe is the Universe that you perceive. It's completely meaningless and absurd to talk about the Universe separate from observation and interpretation.

When you say "The Universe" what you really mean is "my interpretation of the Universe." You have zero knowledge or experience of it outside of that qualification.




Perception is not reality, no matter how much you want it to be.  The universe is defined as that which exists regardless of your perception.  The fact that you cannot know it in its totality doesn't change this.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: identity [Re: NetDiver]
    #14425890 - 05/09/11 05:48 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zoomfan said:
my point was that the universe has become intelligent,this intelligence calls itself human and identifies itself with the human "package", but isnt it just the universe being intelligent?


It is the universe exhibiting intelligence; this is not the same thing as the universe as a whole being intelligent.


Quote:

zoomfan said:
this intelligence can identify itself with many things, is it more reasonable for this intelligence to identify itself with the entirety of existence including the body/mind, rather than just the physical/mental expression of this intelligence.


Why do you figure that is more reasonable?


Quote:

zoomfan said:
this intelligence/human being is a product of the universe, to make a distinction between the two would be purely for name sake.


We make distinctions between things for a reason..there's no logical reason to refuse to acknowledge the distinction between a human being and the entire universe.



Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
It's completely meaningless and absurd to talk about the Universe separate from observation and interpretation.


Why?


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
When you say "The Universe" what you really mean is "my interpretation of the Universe." You have zero knowledge or experience of it outside of that qualification.


You're right, I can't know for sure whether my interpretation of the universe reflects reality--I do, however, think that it is highly likely that the universe I observe exists separate from me in some fashion. I think it existed before I was born, and will continue to exist after I die.


Please provide a description of the universe that defines it as being perception.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: identity [Re: DieCommie]
    #14425905 - 05/09/11 05:50 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

can't you see how that universe you're talking about is just a construct of the mind? why add a level of abstraction to what "true reality" is? reality is what you can see and feel around you, not some postulated universe that is beyond perception.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: identity [Re: g00ru]
    #14425927 - 05/09/11 05:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Thats nothing more than new age newspeak.  We have separate words for separate ideas for a reason, they give us more mental and philosophical tools to conceptualize with.  If you want to remove your ability to conceptualize at higher levels of abstraction, that is your prerogative.  But the human race has done well to do just the opposite of what you advocate.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: identity [Re: DieCommie]
    #14425930 - 05/09/11 05:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Perception is not reality, no matter how much you want it to be.



We can't know otherwise, now can we?

Quote:

The universe is defined as that which exists regardless of your perception.  The fact that you cannot know it in its totality doesn't change this.



Nice definition, too bad you completely made it up. :lol:

Here's a quote from my girlfriend's Quantum Physics textbook:

Quote:


According to Einstein, "The belief in an external world independent of the perceiving subject is the basis of all natural science." Quantum mechanics, however, regards the interactions of object and observer as the ultimate reality. It uses the language of physical relations and processes rather than that of physical qualities and properties. It rejects as meaningless and useless the notion that behind the universe of our perception there lies a hidden objective world ruled by causality; instead it confines itself to the description of relations among perceptions.



From "Quantum Physics of Atoms, Molecules, Solids, Nuclei, and Particles, Second Edition."

So, who defines the Universe as "that which exists regardless of your perception"? Certainly not at least two physics professors/authors of a widely used textbook.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: identity [Re: NetDiver]
    #14425952 - 05/09/11 05:57 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Perception is not reality, no matter how much you want it to be.



We can't know otherwise, now can we?





Sure we can.  All you need is one instance of contradictory perceptions.


Also, I think you are inappropriately equating an observer (which need not be conscious) to perception (which necessarily stems from consciousness).  I dont think either of those quotes support your belief at all.


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OfflineVsnares.Zappa
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Re: identity [Re: Poid]
    #14425956 - 05/09/11 05:57 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Poid said:
''We make distinctions between things for a reason..there's no logical reason to refuse to acknowledge the distinction between a human being and the entire universe.''

All things are jiggling atoms so in a way, the whole Cosmos is a giant soup of energy pulsating. Everything flows together and is ONE.


Edited by Vsnares.Zappa (05/09/11 07:51 PM)


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: identity [Re: DieCommie]
    #14425958 - 05/09/11 05:57 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

omg :rofl: new age newspeak.

The scientific pursuit is in no way dependent on an abstracted "exterior" universe.  It's ultimately a completely material pursuit.  Theories of physics are as much the creative act of a single mind as they are the discovery of something that already existed. That's why Einstein talks about imagination so much. If more scientists dropped these antiquated materialist paradigms, i'm sure progress would be made at a much faster rate.


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drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: identity [Re: g00ru] * 1
    #14425967 - 05/09/11 05:59 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I think your paradigm is antiquated, and the reason we have made so much progress is that we have abandoned it.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: identity [Re: DieCommie]
    #14425972 - 05/09/11 06:00 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Also, I think you are inappropriately equating an observer (which need not be conscious) to perception (which necessarily stems from consciousness).  I dont think either of those quotes support your belief at all.



Why don't you tell me what the difference is? Because it seems to very clearly use the words "perception" and "observation," both terms coined by conscious beings.

Here, let me show you:

Quote:


According to Einstein, "The belief in an external world independent of the perceiving subject is the basis of all natural science." Quantum mechanics, however, regards the interactions of object and observer as the ultimate reality. It uses the language of physical relations and processes rather than that of physical qualities and properties. It rejects as meaningless and useless the notion that behind the universe of our perception there lies a hidden objective world ruled by causality; instead it confines itself to the description of relations among perceptions.




Also, contradictory perceptions do not support the idea of something totally separate from perception. They support only the existence of a disagreement.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: identity [Re: DieCommie]
    #14425979 - 05/09/11 06:01 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

My paradigm is much more simple, i'll tell you that much. and just as consistent with my experience a a materialist one. More so, actually.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: identity [Re: NetDiver]
    #14425989 - 05/09/11 06:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I already told you.  Observation need not have consciousness behind it, perception does.  The fact that we have invented those concepts and words doesnt change that.  Observation, in the context of quantum physics (which you brought up) does not need to have consciousness behind it.  Furthermore, neither of those quotes substantiate your belief that perception is reality.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: identity [Re: DieCommie]
    #14426003 - 05/09/11 06:05 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Then why does it use the words "perceiving subject," and say that it rejects the notion of a deeper level "behind the Universe of our perception"?

Also, please state at least some logical support for your claims that reality exists separate from any observation and perception. Given that perception is all we can ever know, I would say the burden of proof is on you.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: identity [Re: g00ru]
    #14426012 - 05/09/11 06:06 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
My paradigm is much more simple, i'll tell you that much. and just as consistent with my experience a a materialist one. More so, actually.




I would attribute that to having a narrow range of experience.  When you purposefully close yourself off from the set of experience out there, you can easily simplify your paradigm.  And that is exactly what newspeak seeks to do - to limit your range of experience such that you cannot have a sophisticated, open minded paradigm.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: identity [Re: NetDiver]
    #14426018 - 05/09/11 06:06 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

How about the Participatory Universe theory, from eminent physicist John Wheeler?

http://discovermagazine.com/2002/jun/featuniverse

Is he just a new-age flake? I think you are grossly misinterpreting the philosophical implications of modern physics. In any case, the existence of reality apart from perception is not nearly so well-accepted or cut-and-dried as you're trying to suggest.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: identity [Re: NetDiver]
    #14426024 - 05/09/11 06:07 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Also, please state at least some logical support for your claims that reality exists separate from any observation and perception. Given that perception is all we can ever know, I would say the burden of proof is on you.




Reality is defined that way.  You dont prove a definition, you assume it.  If reality is not that which exists regardless of perception, what is?  (Note that you need not believe in it to define it - the unicorn is defined just fine without actually existing)


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Offline4896744
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Re: identity [Re: g00ru]
    #14426064 - 05/09/11 06:13 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
can't you see how that universe you're talking about is just a construct of the mind? why add a level of abstraction to what "true reality" is? reality is what you can see and feel around you, not some postulated universe that is beyond perception.




Totally, it's only backed up with like science and stuff.


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Offlinezoomfan
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Re: identity [Re: Vsnares.Zappa]
    #14426082 - 05/09/11 06:17 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Vsnares.Zappa said:
we are all part of one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively - Bill hicks




although i love this quote, i would reword it a bit,

the human being is to the universe as intelligence is to the human being.

you can think of the universe as the body of intelligence. saturn doesnt seem to contribute to intelligence, but neither does my thumb.
`
this distinction between human and universe is what im trying to put a spotlight on, this duality, which is taken on as an actuality rather than a categorization for survival purposes etc.

im trying to argue that some of the spiritual bullshit is actually logically sound and should be taken out of that category.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: identity [Re: DieCommie]
    #14426138 - 05/09/11 06:28 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Reality is defined that way.



Ah, so now you've switched from saying "the Universe" is defined that way, to saying "reality" is defined that way.

And for your benefit I'll quote a relevant passage from that article interviewing John Wheeler:

Quote:

According to the rules of quantum mechanics, our observations influence the universe at the most fundamental levels. The boundary between an objective "world out there" and our own subjective consciousness that seemed so clearly defined in physics before the eerie discoveries of the 20th century blurs in quantum mechanics. When physicists look at the basic constituents of reality— atoms and their innards, or the particles of light called photons— what they see depends on how they have set up their experiment.




And this fits exactly with the thought experiment I will outline below.

Quote:

If reality is not that which exists regardless of perception, what is?



Do you mean "what is it?" as in "what is reality?" In my view, reality is the totality of all that is perceived.

Take, for example, a thought experiment. Say you take somebody, who was raised in the jungle and never knew technology, to see a computer. After showing them the computer, you kill them (obviously I'm not advocating murder, this is all hypothetical). You never teach them anything about what they saw.

Now, here's where we run into problems assuming an objective reality independent of perception: did computers exist to them? Obviously they saw something when you showed it to them. But, to them, was it a computer? Certainly not in the sense we think of it.

Take a look at the definition of a computer: "An electronic device for storing and processing data, typically in binary form, according to instructions given to it in a variable program."

To them, that definition is complete and total nonsense. They have no idea what an electronic device is, nor data, nor binary, etc.

Let's continue with our hypothetical, and say that spending long hours in the jungle under the thick, dark canopy has fucked up their vision, and everything appears blurry. Not only do they not know the computer's function, they also see something different when they look at it.

So, if they see something different, and perceive its function in an entirely different way, how can you claim that a computer exists to that person? And, if a computer can exist or not exist depending on who's looking, where is its objective nature independent of perception?

In our way, we're all like that person taken from the jungle. We're locked into our concepts and language because they define the terms of the discussion. We tend to forget that two different people in the same situation could be seeing entirely different things, and furthermore, that all people are subject to this limitation.


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Re: identity [Re: NetDiver]
    #14426150 - 05/09/11 06:31 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Reality is defined that way.



Ah, so now you've switched from saying "the Universe" is defined that way, to saying "reality" is defined that way.


Those terms are essentially synonymous..you're arguing semantics.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: identity [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14426185 - 05/09/11 06:38 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

This coming from Poid. :lol:

But the two are not synonymous. That is why there are two different words for them.

Let's take a look at the relevant definitions:

Quote:


re·al·i·ty
noun /rēˈalətē/
1.The world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them

7. Existence that is absolute, self-sufficient, or objective, and not subject to human decisions or conventions

u·ni·verse/ˈyo͞onəˌvərs/
Noun: All existing matter and space considered as a whole; the cosmos.




The distinction is very important here, as my claim is precisely that matter and space are equivalent to perception, and that having one without the other is like running away from your shadow. I reject reality in the sense of the above definition, but completely accept the Universe.


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Re: identity [Re: DieCommie]
    #14426267 - 05/09/11 06:54 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

guruu said:
My paradigm is much more simple, i'll tell you that much. and just as consistent with my experience a a materialist one. More so, actually.




I would attribute that to having a narrow range of experience.  When you purposefully close yourself off from the set of experience out there, you can easily simplify your paradigm.  And that is exactly what newspeak seeks to do - to limit your range of experience such that you cannot have a sophisticated, open minded paradigm.




eh, i get a pretty wide range of experience man...idk what you're talkin about, mucho assumptions about who i am away from the computer in your post


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Re: identity [Re: NetDiver]
    #14426354 - 05/09/11 07:15 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
But the two are not synonymous. That is why there are two different words for them.


:lolsy:

Are you actually telling me that two different words cannot be synonymous?


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Let's take a look at the relevant definitions:

Quote:


re·al·i·ty
noun /rēˈalətē/
1.The world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them

7. Existence that is absolute, self-sufficient, or objective, and not subject to human decisions or conventions

u·ni·verse/ˈyo͞onəˌvərs/
Noun: All existing matter and space considered as a whole; the cosmos.




The distinction is very important here, as my claim is precisely that matter and space are equivalent to perception...


The distinction is only in your mind..matter and space are not defined as being equivalent to perception, this is merely your own idiosyncratic definition.


There is hardly any major distinction between those definitions, that's why those terms are synonyms.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (05/09/11 07:24 PM)


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Re: identity [Re: Poid]
    #14426428 - 05/09/11 07:32 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

auxiliary said:
Being alive is identifying yourself as yourself, separate from everything else. God knows what will be made of this juxtaposition once you're dead.


Great, yet another person who knows what God knows. :rolleyes:



:confused: Isn't that a commonly used expression? I don't understand what you're insinuating.


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Re: identity [Re: auxiliary]
    #14426488 - 05/09/11 07:44 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Do you mean as the entire universe? I think it would be illogical, and retarded to identify yourself as the entire universe; you clearly are not the entire universe.


Hmm, well, I would say that you are the entire Universe, sort of, in the same way you are a location that you find yourself in within a dream. For instance, say I find myself dreaming I'm in a gigantic stone labyrinth - I both am that labyrinth (the entire thing is a construct of my brain defined in relation to myself; if there was no me there would be no labyrinth), and am not that labyrinth (despite the fact that it is constructed by my brain, I identify as something other than it, namely a body as a perspective within the environment).

Why do you think that this comparison between dreams and reality is in any way useful?

Each human being is only a part of the universe; whether or not they are a location that they find themselves in a dream is entirely irrelevant.




you being the whole univirse as in Decatisian Demon Hypothesis? if that is what he is getting at.?


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: identity [Re: Poid]
    #14426510 - 05/09/11 07:49 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
The distinction is only in your mind..matter and space are not defined as being equivalent to perception, this is merely your own idiosyncratic definition.



:facepalm:

It's the idea that I'm making a philosophical argument for. Nobody knows exactly what matter and space are.

Quote:

auxiliary said:
:confused: Isn't that a commonly used expression? I don't understand what you're insinuating.



It is a commonly used expression. Poid is basically capable of arguing only semantics.


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Re: identity [Re: NetDiver]
    #14426591 - 05/09/11 08:09 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

Poid said:
The distinction is only in your mind..matter and space are not defined as being equivalent to perception, this is merely your own idiosyncratic definition.



:facepalm:

It's the idea that I'm making a philosophical argument for.


Your argument is not well-supported with evidence. :shrug:


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Nobody knows exactly what matter and space are.


We have a pretty decent grasp at what those phenomena are..no scientist today defines them as being equivalent to perception.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

auxiliary said:
:confused: Isn't that a commonly used expression? I don't understand what you're insinuating.



It is a commonly used expression. Poid is basically capable of arguing only semantics.


Yeah, it's one of the commonly used expressions..I'm just emphasizing the fact that there are several definitions for the term, I usually do this when people seem confident that their definition is the correct one.

:god:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: identity [Re: Poid]
    #14426733 - 05/09/11 08:35 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Your argument is not well-supported with evidence. :shrug:



Yes it is. Space and matter have never been apprehended apart from a perception measuring them. Never. Not once. 100% of the measurements made of space, defining every idea we have of it, have been made from a human perspective. :shrug:

Or is that not good enough evidence?


Quote:


We have a pretty decent grasp at what those phenomena are..no scientist today defines them as being equivalent to perception.



Many philosophers do, and some scientists do as well. Again, reference the link I posted with John Wheeler a page ago.


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Re: identity [Re: NetDiver]
    #14426750 - 05/09/11 08:37 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

welcome to the other side of the poid :kingtard:


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Re: identity [Re: NetDiver]
    #14426766 - 05/09/11 08:40 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Your argument is not well-supported with evidence. :shrug:



Yes it is. Space and matter have never been apprehended apart from a perception measuring them. Never. Not once. 100% of the measurements made of space, defining every idea we have of it, have been made from a human perspective. :shrug:

Or is that not good enough evidence?


How is that evidence of consciousness being immortal? I've asked you this several times, and you ignored me each time.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

We have a pretty decent grasp at what those phenomena are..no scientist today defines them as being equivalent to perception.



Many philosophers do, and some scientists do as well. Again, reference the link I posted with John Wheeler a page ago.


What you quoted doesn't prove that there isn't an "objective reality" that exists beyond our perceptions.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: identity [Re: g00ru]
    #14426789 - 05/09/11 08:44 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
welcome to the other side of the poid :kingtard:


:jimmorrison:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: identity [Re: Poid]
    #14426837 - 05/09/11 08:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
How is that evidence of consciousness being immortal? I've asked you this several times, and you ignored me each time.



You're getting your threads mixed up. :lol: I'm not saying anything about consciousnesses being immortal here (nor am I even totally convinced of that, I just think it's an interesting possibility). In this case I'm arguing that it's equal to matter.


Quote:

What you quoted doesn't prove that there isn't an "objective reality" that exists beyond our perceptions.



Proving that wasn't my aim with those quotes. I was merely responding to you saying that "no scientist says matter is perception," by showing an example of at least one who did say that.


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Re: identity [Re: NetDiver]
    #14426876 - 05/09/11 08:59 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

Poid said:
How is that evidence of consciousness being immortal? I've asked you this several times, and you ignored me each time.



You're getting your threads mixed up. :lol: I'm not saying anything about consciousnesses being immortal here (nor am I even totally convinced of that, I just think it's an interesting possibility).


Oops. :blush:


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
In this case I'm arguing that it's equal to matter.


But scientists in general today don't define it as being equal to matter.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

What you quoted doesn't prove that there isn't an "objective reality" that exists beyond our perceptions.



Proving that wasn't my aim with those quotes. I was merely responding to you saying that "no scientist says matter is perception," by showing an example of at least one who did say that.


I take that statement back..what I meant to say is that the general consensus amongst scientists today regarding perception is that it's not defined as being equal to matter.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: identity [Re: Poid]
    #14426893 - 05/09/11 09:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Most physicists aren't really concerned with explaining perception, though, or thinking philosophically about it's relation to matter. That's more of the realm of philosophers, and many of them do think that. :shrug:

The phenomenologists represent an interesting school of thought along those lines.


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Re: identity [Re: NetDiver]
    #14426912 - 05/09/11 09:06 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Most physicists aren't really concerned with explaining perception, though, or thinking philosophically about it's relation to matter. That's more of the realm of philosophers, and many of them do think that. :shrug:


Well matter is a concept in the field of physics, and is not defined as being equal to consciousness therein.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
The phenomenologists represent an interesting school of thought along those lines.


I'll check that out. :thumbup:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: identity [Re: Poid]
    #14426938 - 05/09/11 09:11 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

guruu said:
welcome to the other side of the poid :kingtard:


:jimmorrison:



:ilold:


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Re: identity [Re: NetDiver]
    #14426963 - 05/09/11 09:16 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Most physicists aren't really concerned with explaining perception, though, or thinking philosophically about it's relation to matter. That's more of the realm of philosophers, and many of them do think that. :shrug:





I was watching some science show on discovery and they had discovered something which may have profound implications. (can't remember what)

What I do remember is when the interviewer asked the scientist what it "means" he made a very pointed effort to pass it off to the philosophy department at the college.

The reporter tried but he legitimately was not interested in answering the question.

IMO Separating out the two fields is a good thing.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: identity [Re: zoomfan]
    #14430200 - 05/10/11 02:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zoomfan said:
is it more illogical to identify yourself as the universe or a human being?




It is rational to define oneself as the former, non-rational in the latter. However, space-time is a fabric of which our mind-body is co-extensive with the greater universe. That is, we are psychophysically embedded in the universe, one with it. Yet, there is the truly 'other' aspect of our identity as being eternal. That aspect transcends the universe because it is ontologically prior to the emergent phenomena which IS the universe.


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OfflineLittileSkierDude
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Re: identity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #14432363 - 05/10/11 10:29 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

im not quite seeing the distinction between the idea that we cant be sure of existence outside of our perception and the idea of solipsism, but thats possibly because its hard for me to completely grasp solipsism. 

so basically (this is directed at samurai drifter) if i asked you, "if a tree falls and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" your answer would be no? because the sound was not perceived it cannot be proven to exist, correct? but do you truly believe that it didnt make a sound?


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Re: identity [Re: LittileSkierDude]
    #14433302 - 05/11/11 03:34 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah; "sound" is just a particular way in which air vibrations are interpreted by your brain. Brains are required for sounds. :shrug:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: identity [Re: NetDiver]
    #14433410 - 05/11/11 04:59 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Yeah; "sound" is just a particular way in which air vibrations are interpreted by your brain. Brains are required for sounds. :shrug:




Right.


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Re: identity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #14435095 - 05/11/11 02:07 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

sometimes i hate when things make sense


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Re: identity [Re: NetDiver]
    #14442061 - 05/12/11 08:22 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Yeah; "sound" is just a particular way in which air vibrations are interpreted by your brain. Brains are required for sounds. :shrug:




Sound is also a name for the air vibrations that are in the frequency that can be heard.


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Re: identity [Re: falcon]
    #14442098 - 05/12/11 08:30 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

yeah, but the hearing happens in the mind, it's only external if you decide to cognize it that way


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