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auxiliary
Mr.



Registered: 05/03/09
Posts: 2,278
Loc: Thatoneville
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
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Re: identity [Re: Poid]
#14426428 - 05/09/11 07:32 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
auxiliary said: Being alive is identifying yourself as yourself, separate from everything else. God knows what will be made of this juxtaposition once you're dead.
Great, yet another person who knows what God knows. 
Isn't that a commonly used expression? I don't understand what you're insinuating.
--------------------
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scarfaceshim
forester

Registered: 05/09/11
Posts: 44
Loc: moon
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said: Quote:
Poid said: Do you mean as the entire universe? I think it would be illogical, and retarded to identify yourself as the entire universe; you clearly are not the entire universe.
Hmm, well, I would say that you are the entire Universe, sort of, in the same way you are a location that you find yourself in within a dream. For instance, say I find myself dreaming I'm in a gigantic stone labyrinth - I both am that labyrinth (the entire thing is a construct of my brain defined in relation to myself; if there was no me there would be no labyrinth), and am not that labyrinth (despite the fact that it is constructed by my brain, I identify as something other than it, namely a body as a perspective within the environment).
Why do you think that this comparison between dreams and reality is in any way useful?
Each human being is only a part of the universe; whether or not they are a location that they find themselves in a dream is entirely irrelevant.
you being the whole univirse as in Decatisian Demon Hypothesis? if that is what he is getting at.?
-------------------- "survival is the doorway to the earth, awareness is the doorway to the spirit"-Tom Brown file:///Users/Jewbius/Documents/don_34f24b_2916456.jpg
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: identity [Re: Poid]
#14426510 - 05/09/11 07:49 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Poid said: The distinction is only in your mind..matter and space are not defined as being equivalent to perception, this is merely your own idiosyncratic definition.

It's the idea that I'm making a philosophical argument for. Nobody knows exactly what matter and space are.
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auxiliary said:
Isn't that a commonly used expression? I don't understand what you're insinuating.
It is a commonly used expression. Poid is basically capable of arguing only semantics.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:
Poid said: The distinction is only in your mind..matter and space are not defined as being equivalent to perception, this is merely your own idiosyncratic definition.

It's the idea that I'm making a philosophical argument for.
Your argument is not well-supported with evidence. 
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Samurai Drifter said: Nobody knows exactly what matter and space are.
We have a pretty decent grasp at what those phenomena are..no scientist today defines them as being equivalent to perception.
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Samurai Drifter said:
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auxiliary said:
Isn't that a commonly used expression? I don't understand what you're insinuating.
It is a commonly used expression. Poid is basically capable of arguing only semantics.
Yeah, it's one of the commonly used expressions..I'm just emphasizing the fact that there are several definitions for the term, I usually do this when people seem confident that their definition is the correct one.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: identity [Re: Poid]
#14426733 - 05/09/11 08:35 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said: Your argument is not well-supported with evidence. 
Yes it is. Space and matter have never been apprehended apart from a perception measuring them. Never. Not once. 100% of the measurements made of space, defining every idea we have of it, have been made from a human perspective. 
Or is that not good enough evidence?
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We have a pretty decent grasp at what those phenomena are..no scientist today defines them as being equivalent to perception.
Many philosophers do, and some scientists do as well. Again, reference the link I posted with John Wheeler a page ago.
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g00ru
lit pants tit licker



Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21,088
Loc: georgia, us
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
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welcome to the other side of the poid
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:
Poid said: Your argument is not well-supported with evidence. 
Yes it is. Space and matter have never been apprehended apart from a perception measuring them. Never. Not once. 100% of the measurements made of space, defining every idea we have of it, have been made from a human perspective. 
Or is that not good enough evidence?
How is that evidence of consciousness being immortal? I've asked you this several times, and you ignored me each time.
Quote:
Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:
We have a pretty decent grasp at what those phenomena are..no scientist today defines them as being equivalent to perception.
Many philosophers do, and some scientists do as well. Again, reference the link I posted with John Wheeler a page ago.
What you quoted doesn't prove that there isn't an "objective reality" that exists beyond our perceptions.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: identity [Re: g00ru]
#14426789 - 05/09/11 08:44 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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guruu said: welcome to the other side of the poid 
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: identity [Re: Poid]
#14426837 - 05/09/11 08:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Poid said: How is that evidence of consciousness being immortal? I've asked you this several times, and you ignored me each time.
You're getting your threads mixed up. I'm not saying anything about consciousnesses being immortal here (nor am I even totally convinced of that, I just think it's an interesting possibility). In this case I'm arguing that it's equal to matter.
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What you quoted doesn't prove that there isn't an "objective reality" that exists beyond our perceptions.
Proving that wasn't my aim with those quotes. I was merely responding to you saying that "no scientist says matter is perception," by showing an example of at least one who did say that.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:
Poid said: How is that evidence of consciousness being immortal? I've asked you this several times, and you ignored me each time.
You're getting your threads mixed up. I'm not saying anything about consciousnesses being immortal here (nor am I even totally convinced of that, I just think it's an interesting possibility).
Oops. 
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Samurai Drifter said: In this case I'm arguing that it's equal to matter.
But scientists in general today don't define it as being equal to matter.
Quote:
Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:
What you quoted doesn't prove that there isn't an "objective reality" that exists beyond our perceptions.
Proving that wasn't my aim with those quotes. I was merely responding to you saying that "no scientist says matter is perception," by showing an example of at least one who did say that.
I take that statement back..what I meant to say is that the general consensus amongst scientists today regarding perception is that it's not defined as being equal to matter.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: identity [Re: Poid]
#14426893 - 05/09/11 09:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Most physicists aren't really concerned with explaining perception, though, or thinking philosophically about it's relation to matter. That's more of the realm of philosophers, and many of them do think that. 
The phenomenologists represent an interesting school of thought along those lines.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said: Most physicists aren't really concerned with explaining perception, though, or thinking philosophically about it's relation to matter. That's more of the realm of philosophers, and many of them do think that. 
Well matter is a concept in the field of physics, and is not defined as being equal to consciousness therein.
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Samurai Drifter said: The phenomenologists represent an interesting school of thought along those lines.
I'll check that out.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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g00ru
lit pants tit licker



Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21,088
Loc: georgia, us
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
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Re: identity [Re: Poid]
#14426938 - 05/09/11 09:11 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
guruu said: welcome to the other side of the poid 

-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said: Most physicists aren't really concerned with explaining perception, though, or thinking philosophically about it's relation to matter. That's more of the realm of philosophers, and many of them do think that. 
I was watching some science show on discovery and they had discovered something which may have profound implications. (can't remember what)
What I do remember is when the interviewer asked the scientist what it "means" he made a very pointed effort to pass it off to the philosophy department at the college.
The reporter tried but he legitimately was not interested in answering the question.
IMO Separating out the two fields is a good thing.
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 3 days
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Re: identity [Re: zoomfan]
#14430200 - 05/10/11 02:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
zoomfan said: is it more illogical to identify yourself as the universe or a human being?
It is rational to define oneself as the former, non-rational in the latter. However, space-time is a fabric of which our mind-body is co-extensive with the greater universe. That is, we are psychophysically embedded in the universe, one with it. Yet, there is the truly 'other' aspect of our identity as being eternal. That aspect transcends the universe because it is ontologically prior to the emergent phenomena which IS the universe.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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LittileSkierDude
Wandering Soul



Registered: 03/15/11
Posts: 247
Loc: Behind You
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
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im not quite seeing the distinction between the idea that we cant be sure of existence outside of our perception and the idea of solipsism, but thats possibly because its hard for me to completely grasp solipsism.
so basically (this is directed at samurai drifter) if i asked you, "if a tree falls and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" your answer would be no? because the sound was not perceived it cannot be proven to exist, correct? but do you truly believe that it didnt make a sound?
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Yeah; "sound" is just a particular way in which air vibrations are interpreted by your brain. Brains are required for sounds.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 3 days
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said: Yeah; "sound" is just a particular way in which air vibrations are interpreted by your brain. Brains are required for sounds. 
Right.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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LittileSkierDude
Wandering Soul



Registered: 03/15/11
Posts: 247
Loc: Behind You
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
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sometimes i hate when things make sense
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falcon


Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 8,005
Last seen: 1 day, 11 hours
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said: Yeah; "sound" is just a particular way in which air vibrations are interpreted by your brain. Brains are required for sounds. 
Sound is also a name for the air vibrations that are in the frequency that can be heard.
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