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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlinezoomfan
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identity
    #14424887 - 05/09/11 04:22 PM (10 years, 2 hours ago)

is it more illogical to identify yourself as the universe or a human being?


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Thinking is dreaming wake up and enjoy the dream.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: identity [Re: zoomfan]
    #14425012 - 05/09/11 04:49 PM (10 years, 2 hours ago)

Who says they're mutually exclusive?


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: identity [Re: zoomfan] * 1
    #14425187 - 05/09/11 05:25 PM (10 years, 1 hour ago)

Do you mean as the entire universe? I think it would be illogical, and retarded to identify yourself as the entire universe; you clearly are not the entire universe.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: identity [Re: Poid]
    #14425213 - 05/09/11 05:31 PM (10 years, 1 hour ago)

Rand McNally!


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: identity [Re: Poid]
    #14425430 - 05/09/11 06:23 PM (10 years, 49 minutes ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Do you mean as the entire universe? I think it would be illogical, and retarded to identify yourself as the entire universe; you clearly are not the entire universe.



Hmm, well, I would say that you are the entire Universe, sort of, in the same way you are a location that you find yourself in within a dream. For instance, say I find myself dreaming I'm in a gigantic stone labyrinth - I both am that labyrinth (the entire thing is a construct of my brain defined in relation to myself; if there was no me there would be no labyrinth), and am not that labyrinth (despite the fact that it is constructed by my brain, I identify as something other than it, namely a body as a perspective within the environment).


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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: identity [Re: NetDiver]
    #14425437 - 05/09/11 06:24 PM (10 years, 48 minutes ago)

solipsism?


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: identity [Re: curious mouse]
    #14425462 - 05/09/11 06:30 PM (10 years, 43 minutes ago)

Not at all - just that whatever Universe any given person observes is their interpretation of the Universe, based on their experiences and beliefs. I have reason to believe that there are other interpretations besides my own.


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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: identity [Re: NetDiver]
    #14425467 - 05/09/11 06:30 PM (10 years, 42 minutes ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Not at all - just that whatever Universe any given person observes is their interpretation of the Universe, based on their experiences and beliefs. I have reason to believe that there are other interpretations besides my own.




this is a little different than your OP


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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: identity [Re: curious mouse]
    #14425471 - 05/09/11 06:31 PM (10 years, 41 minutes ago)

wait..you weren't they op.


lol my bad.


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Offlineauxiliary
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Re: identity [Re: curious mouse]
    #14425510 - 05/09/11 06:40 PM (10 years, 32 minutes ago)

Being alive is identifying yourself as yourself, separate from everything else. God knows what will be made of this juxtaposition once you're dead.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: identity [Re: auxiliary]
    #14425581 - 05/09/11 06:55 PM (10 years, 18 minutes ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Do you mean as the entire universe? I think it would be illogical, and retarded to identify yourself as the entire universe; you clearly are not the entire universe.



Hmm, well, I would say that you are the entire Universe, sort of, in the same way you are a location that you find yourself in within a dream. For instance, say I find myself dreaming I'm in a gigantic stone labyrinth - I both am that labyrinth (the entire thing is a construct of my brain defined in relation to myself; if there was no me there would be no labyrinth), and am not that labyrinth (despite the fact that it is constructed by my brain, I identify as something other than it, namely a body as a perspective within the environment).


Why do you think that this comparison between dreams and reality is in any way useful? :undecided:

Each human being is only a part of the universe; whether or not they are a location that they find themselves in a dream is entirely irrelevant.



Quote:

auxiliary said:
Being alive is identifying yourself as yourself, separate from everything else. God knows what will be made of this juxtaposition once you're dead.


Great, yet another person who knows what God knows. :rolleyes:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: identity [Re: Poid]
    #14425681 - 05/09/11 07:11 PM (10 years, 1 minute ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Why do you think that this comparison between dreams and reality is in any way useful? :undecided:

Each human being is only a part of the universe; whether or not they are a location that they find themselves in a dream is entirely irrelevant.



Why do I get the feeling you entirely missed my point?

If your brains were blown out, would the Universe you perceive still exist?


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OfflineVsnares.Zappa
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Re: identity [Re: NetDiver]
    #14425704 - 05/09/11 07:16 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

we are all part of one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively - Bill hicks


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: identity [Re: zoomfan]
    #14425720 - 05/09/11 07:19 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zoomfan said:
is it more illogical to identify yourself as the universe or a human being?




certainly its more illogical to identify as a human being...every sensory object within view is in some sense the "exterior universe," because obviously it's not that which is perceiving the objects.  You could identify as part of that experiential field (As body) or identify with the whole thing

Of course, like samuraidrifter said, the two aren't mutually exclusive, personally i identify very much as both.  Sometimes the line between things i did and things that are just happening around me is very fine.


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check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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Offlinezoomfan
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Re: identity [Re: Poid]
    #14425828 - 05/09/11 07:38 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

my point was that the universe has become intelligent,this intelligence calls itself human and identifies itself with the human "package", but isnt it just the universe being intelligent? this intelligence can identify itself with many things, is it more reasonable for this intelligence to identify itself with the entirety of existence including the body/mind, rather than just the physical/mental expression of this intelligence.

this intelligence/human being is a product of the universe, to make a distinction between the two would be purely for name sake. like saying a rubber duck instead of just rubber. so if that rubber was somehow formed into a conscious duck, should it identify itself as just a conscious duck or just rubber that has become a conscious duck?


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: identity [Re: NetDiver]
    #14425840 - 05/09/11 07:41 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Why do you think that this comparison between dreams and reality is in any way useful? :undecided:

Each human being is only a part of the universe; whether or not they are a location that they find themselves in a dream is entirely irrelevant.



Why do I get the feeling you entirely missed my point?


Because I probably did. :shrug:


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
If your brains were blown out, would the Universe you perceive still exist?


No, but this doesn't mean that the entire universe would cease existing..is this what you are suggesting? :confused:

I agree that all of my perceptions are a part of me, but I don't think this means that I am the entire universe; my perceptions are not the entire universe.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: identity [Re: Poid]
    #14425861 - 05/09/11 07:44 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

The Universe is the Universe that you perceive. It's completely meaningless and absurd to talk about the Universe separate from observation and interpretation.

When you say "The Universe" what you really mean is "my interpretation of the Universe." You have zero knowledge or experience of it outside of that qualification.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: identity [Re: NetDiver]
    #14425880 - 05/09/11 07:47 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
The Universe is the Universe that you perceive. It's completely meaningless and absurd to talk about the Universe separate from observation and interpretation.

When you say "The Universe" what you really mean is "my interpretation of the Universe." You have zero knowledge or experience of it outside of that qualification.




Perception is not reality, no matter how much you want it to be.  The universe is defined as that which exists regardless of your perception.  The fact that you cannot know it in its totality doesn't change this.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: identity [Re: NetDiver]
    #14425890 - 05/09/11 07:48 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zoomfan said:
my point was that the universe has become intelligent,this intelligence calls itself human and identifies itself with the human "package", but isnt it just the universe being intelligent?


It is the universe exhibiting intelligence; this is not the same thing as the universe as a whole being intelligent.


Quote:

zoomfan said:
this intelligence can identify itself with many things, is it more reasonable for this intelligence to identify itself with the entirety of existence including the body/mind, rather than just the physical/mental expression of this intelligence.


Why do you figure that is more reasonable?


Quote:

zoomfan said:
this intelligence/human being is a product of the universe, to make a distinction between the two would be purely for name sake.


We make distinctions between things for a reason..there's no logical reason to refuse to acknowledge the distinction between a human being and the entire universe.



Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
It's completely meaningless and absurd to talk about the Universe separate from observation and interpretation.


Why?


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
When you say "The Universe" what you really mean is "my interpretation of the Universe." You have zero knowledge or experience of it outside of that qualification.


You're right, I can't know for sure whether my interpretation of the universe reflects reality--I do, however, think that it is highly likely that the universe I observe exists separate from me in some fashion. I think it existed before I was born, and will continue to exist after I die.


Please provide a description of the universe that defines it as being perception.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: identity [Re: DieCommie]
    #14425905 - 05/09/11 07:50 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

can't you see how that universe you're talking about is just a construct of the mind? why add a level of abstraction to what "true reality" is? reality is what you can see and feel around you, not some postulated universe that is beyond perception.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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