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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineBax
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Afterlife
    #14423504 - 05/09/11 07:56 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Can anyone find the logical flaw, if any, of this statement ?

Quote:

The mind being the sole master, if one believes a statement to be true, and can never be proven wrong under any circumstances, then for that person the statement is true. Thus, being convinced of the existence of an afterlife grants immortality, and for that to be true the actual existence of an afterlife is irrelevant.





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OfflineStroup
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Re: Afterlife [Re: Bax]
    #14423548 - 05/09/11 08:15 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Well that statement has no flaw. Where did you read that ? That is very interesting, however it still comes down to belief. For me, it would be true that there is no afterlife, you only become eternal in an infinite loop of neverending cycles through this universe, you become all.


--------------------
Beatles rock band .. ON acid


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OfflineGreenvalley
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Re: Afterlife [Re: Stroup]
    #14423557 - 05/09/11 08:19 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I think it is wrong to think it can not be proven that there is an afterlife.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Afterlife [Re: Greenvalley]
    #14423600 - 05/09/11 08:35 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)


The mind being the sole master,


How is this statement true at all?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Afterlife [Re: Bax] * 1
    #14423644 - 05/09/11 08:51 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Are you serious? How does certainty change reality?
Answer: It doesn't.

Tripping Dude: "Look at me! I can fly"
*TD plummets 12 stories to his death*


--------------------


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Afterlife [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14423674 - 05/09/11 09:06 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

well that's cynical
when the mind dies the conviction and everything else going on there goes out the window


--------------------
with our love with our love we could save the world


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Afterlife [Re: Ferdinando]
    #14423700 - 05/09/11 09:16 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

How are facts cynical?


--------------------


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OfflineBax
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Re: Afterlife [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14423785 - 05/09/11 09:50 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The way I see it, the only period of "time" that matters is the time during which we are able to experience consciousness. it might be, depending of your beliefs: the duration of the physical life, eternity (ie. physical life + eternal afterlife), or it may be something that can't even be described by the word "eternity"  because the very idea of time is estranged to it, but in any case, the common ground is that it's the "length" of time where some form of consciousness exists for you to experience, and in all the different cases we can equate it to 1, the oneness of your conscious experience.

If I believe (for the purposes of the discussion I'm talking about an absolute belief, without the presence of doubt) in an afterlife (or more exactly, in the deathlessness of my consciousness), and if we agree that no experiment other than my own death can prove me right or wrong, then I will either be proven right, or won't be able to experience, because of the death of my consciousness, being proven wrong. So for the whole duration of 1, my consciousness is immortal.

Where am I mistaken ?


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Afterlife [Re: Bax]
    #14423828 - 05/09/11 10:06 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

not the fact itself
the idea synthesizing in your mind and your typing it here
that guy died you know


--------------------
with our love with our love we could save the world


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Afterlife [Re: Ferdinando]
    #14424038 - 05/09/11 11:03 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

If there is no afterlife, then it is true that they will never be proven wrong, because they will not know that there was no afterlife.

However, that doesn't mean they'll experience an afterlife, it just means that they won't know they were wrong. :shrug:

Their belief grants them immortality only as long as they're alive. :lol:


--------------------


Edited by NetDiver (05/09/11 11:59 AM)


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Afterlife [Re: Ferdinando]
    #14424229 - 05/09/11 11:46 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ferdinando said:
that guy died you know



so?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Afterlife [Re: Bax]
    #14425114 - 05/09/11 03:11 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Bax said:
The way I see it, the only period of "time" that matters is the time during which we are able to experience consciousness. it might be, depending of your beliefs: the duration of the physical life, eternity (ie. physical life + eternal afterlife), or it may be something that can't even be described by the word "eternity"  because the very idea of time is estranged to it, but in any case, the common ground is that it's the "length" of time where some form of consciousness exists for you to experience, and in all the different cases we can equate it to 1, the oneness of your conscious experience.


Define "oneness of your conscious experience".


Quote:

Bax said:
If I believe (for the purposes of the discussion I'm talking about an absolute belief, without the presence of doubt) in an afterlife (or more exactly, in the deathlessness of my consciousness), and if we agree that no experiment other than my own death can prove me right or wrong, then I will either be proven right, or won't be able to experience, because of the death of my consciousness, being proven wrong. So for the whole duration of 1, my consciousness is immortal.

Where am I mistaken ?


You are mistaken in your belief that consciousness is in any sense immortal.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Afterlife [Re: Poid]
    #14425132 - 05/09/11 03:15 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

While Swami is long gone, his words of wisdom will live on forever. :heart:


--------------------


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Afterlife [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14425164 - 05/09/11 03:22 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Some say his reincarnation lingers around PSP and occasionally makes (awesome) posts...:ooo:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Afterlife [Re: Poid]
    #14425181 - 05/09/11 03:24 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Sort of like a ghost-writer?  :boo:


--------------------


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Afterlife [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14425356 - 05/09/11 04:10 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yup! :whoyougonnacall:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Afterlife [Re: Poid]
    #14425484 - 05/09/11 04:35 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
You are mistaken in your belief that consciousness is in any sense immortal.



You can't know when you don't exist, you can only know when you do. "Death" is a definition given by things that are alive and thus conscious.


--------------------


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Afterlife [Re: NetDiver]
    #14425554 - 05/09/11 04:49 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I don't see how that in any way proves that consciousness is immortal.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Afterlife [Re: Poid]
    #14425672 - 05/09/11 05:10 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Depends on how you define "immortal." Obviously we all die, but consciousness cannot experience its own non-existence, and death only exists from the perspective of the living.


--------------------


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Afterlife [Re: Poid]
    #14425696 - 05/09/11 05:14 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

It proves that everything you know for sure is based in a context of consciousness existing.  Nothing you know has anything to do with non being.  Just because you know the brain itself is gonna stop working, that doesn't really comment on the true nature of consciousness, because for all we know consciousness is more fundamental to reality than all matter, including the brain.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Afterlife [Re: g00ru]
    #14425822 - 05/09/11 05:37 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Obviously we all die, but consciousness cannot experience its own non-existence, and death only exists from the perspective of the living.


I don't see the relevance of this, or how it even remotely suggests that consciousness is immortal. :shrug:


Quote:

guruu said:
It proves that everything you know for sure is based in a context of consciousness existing.  Nothing you know has anything to do with non being.  Just because you know the brain itself is gonna stop working, that doesn't really comment on the true nature of consciousness, because for all we know consciousness is more fundamental to reality than all matter, including the brain.


It's quite clear that consciousness is generated by the brain..if a brain dies, then all of its processes (including the ones that are involved in the production of consciousness) stop functioning.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Afterlife [Re: Poid]
    #14425844 - 05/09/11 05:41 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
I don't see the relevance of this, or how it even remotely suggests that consciousness is immortal. :shrug:



Really, you don't see the relevance of the fact that death only exists from the perspective of consciousness?

Really? :facepalm:

Epistemology is not your strong point, is it?


--------------------


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Afterlife [Re: Poid]
    #14425881 - 05/09/11 05:47 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

guruu said:
It proves that everything you know for sure is based in a context of consciousness existing.  Nothing you know has anything to do with non being.  Just because you know the brain itself is gonna stop working, that doesn't really comment on the true nature of consciousness, because for all we know consciousness is more fundamental to reality than all matter, including the brain.


It's quite clear that consciousness is generated by the brain..if a brain dies, then all of its processes (including the ones that are involved in the production of consciousness) stop functioning.




quite clear? sure, brains are necessary for the conscious human experience.  but what is your evidence that consciousness is less fundamental to reality than the matter that is your brain?


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Afterlife [Re: g00ru]
    #14426013 - 05/09/11 06:06 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

Poid said:
I don't see the relevance of this, or how it even remotely suggests that consciousness is immortal. :shrug:



Really, you don't see the relevance of the fact that death only exists from the perspective of consciousness?


No, I don't see the relevance of this "fact" to your assertion that consciousness is immortal, it doesn't support it in any way.

The ability to make relevant arguments that actually support your assertions isn't your strong point, is it? :lol:


Death very likely exists outside of the perspective of consciousness, I don't know where you get your "facts" from, or what my noticing the irrelevance of your "facts" to your assertion that consciousness is immortal has to do with my understanding (or lack thereof) of epistemology.



Quote:

guruu said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

guruu said:
It proves that everything you know for sure is based in a context of consciousness existing.  Nothing you know has anything to do with non being.  Just because you know the brain itself is gonna stop working, that doesn't really comment on the true nature of consciousness, because for all we know consciousness is more fundamental to reality than all matter, including the brain.


It's quite clear that consciousness is generated by the brain..if a brain dies, then all of its processes (including the ones that are involved in the production of consciousness) stop functioning.




quite clear? sure, brains are necessary for the conscious human experience.  but what is your evidence that consciousness is less fundamental to reality than the matter that is your brain?


What do you mean by "less fundamental to reality"? What is your evidence which suggests that it may be more "fundamental to reality" than the matter that is my brain?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (05/09/11 06:23 PM)


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Afterlife [Re: Poid]
    #14426239 - 05/09/11 06:49 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:No, I don't see the relevance of this "fact" to your assertion that consciousness is immortal, it doesn't support it in any way.

The ability to make relevant arguments that actually support your assertions isn't your strong point, is it? :lol:


Death very likely exists outside of the perspective of consciousness, I don't know where you get your "facts" from, or what my noticing the irrelevance of your "facts" to your assertion that consciousness is immortal has to do with my understanding (or lack thereof) of epistemology.




Okay, I guess I have to spell it out for you.

Dead things do not say "I am dead." Conscious things do say "I am alive, and that is dead." Consciousness is thus a precondition for the existence of death; as death is described as the extinction of "life," and "life" is  a term coined by consciousness to describe itself.


--------------------


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Afterlife [Re: NetDiver]
    #14426449 - 05/09/11 07:36 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Well thanks for clarifying..that's not at all what I thought you meant by death only existing in "the perspective of consciousness". :lol:


Still, what relevance this has to your assertion that consciousness is immortal is entirely beyond me..perhaps you can spell that out for me as well? :crazy:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offlineinfectedstyle
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Re: Afterlife [Re: Poid]
    #14430775 - 05/10/11 04:54 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

so there is no death? :P


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Afterlife [Re: infectedstyle]
    #14433275 - 05/11/11 03:17 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

life exists. consciousness exists. consciousness is really brain signals.
like a painting existing on its own, witnessing itself. nothing special.


--------------------
with our love with our love we could save the world


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OfflineVsnares.Zappa
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Re: Afterlife [Re: NetDiver]
    #14433285 - 05/11/11 03:25 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
If there is no afterlife, then it is true that they will never be proven wrong, because they will not know that there was no afterlife.

However, that doesn't mean they'll experience an afterlife, it just means that they won't know they were wrong. :shrug:

Their belief grants them immortality only as long as they're alive. :lol:




:ilold:
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:!


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