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OfflineGastronomicus
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Re: Does Ron Paul have a chance? [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #14420366 - 05/08/11 04:21 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Man, you really bought into this plan hook, line, and sinker.  You bitch about the Paul-worshipers but you are lock and step with the Obama-care bullshit?




Er... no. I was not pleased with "obamacare" because it was not a single-payer system which I feel is the ideal.


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OfflineLed Zeppelin
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Re: Does Ron Paul have a chance? [Re: Sophistic Radiance] * 2
    #14420677 - 05/08/11 05:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Ron Paul does not have a chance of being elected, and I am grateful for that.

First of all, he simply won't get nominated to run as the GOP candidate. The GOP brass don't care about poll numbers. That's not how the Republican Party works. That's one of the few things that differentiates it from the Democratic party. Paul is too much of a "maverick" to even be considered by the GOP establishment.

Second of all, the guy is a loon. He doesn't mean what he says about the drug war, he just says it for brownie points with his libertarian constituency and for campaign contributions from druggies who aren't smart enough to hold onto their money. Seems to work out pretty well for him.




Thats fucking bullshit.Id like to see your proof of this..but you have none. ron paul believes everything he says and thats whats so great about him. stop passing off your speculation as fact

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Offlinerealfuzzhead
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Re: Does Ron Paul have a chance? [Re: Sophistic Radiance] * 1
    #14420755 - 05/08/11 05:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Ron Paul does not have a chance of being elected, and I am grateful for that.

First of all, he simply won't get nominated to run as the GOP candidate. The GOP brass don't care about poll numbers. That's not how the Republican Party works. That's one of the few things that differentiates it from the Democratic party. Paul is too much of a "maverick" to even be considered by the GOP establishment.

Second of all, the guy is a loon. He doesn't mean what he says about the drug war, he just says it for brownie points with his libertarian constituency and for campaign contributions from druggies who aren't smart enough to hold onto their money. Seems to work out pretty well for him.




bullshit man. this is essentially along the lines of the "Join shroomery in 03, build trust over 8 year" police thing. Why would he waste so many years in congress as a newbie, not fighting for corporations and not taking bribes and being for the people just so he could join and fuck us over?

he is OF and FOR the people

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Re: Does Ron Paul have a chance? [Re: realfuzzhead] * 1
    #14421086 - 05/08/11 06:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)


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Offlinesnitchelpowerz37
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Re: Does Ron Paul have a chance? [Re: realfuzzhead] * 1
    #14421163 - 05/08/11 06:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

realfuzzhead said:
Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Ron Paul does not have a chance of being elected, and I am grateful for that.

First of all, he simply won't get nominated to run as the GOP candidate. The GOP brass don't care about poll numbers. That's not how the Republican Party works. That's one of the few things that differentiates it from the Democratic party. Paul is too much of a "maverick" to even be considered by the GOP establishment.

Second of all, the guy is a loon. He doesn't mean what he says about the drug war, he just says it for brownie points with his libertarian constituency and for campaign contributions from druggies who aren't smart enough to hold onto their money. Seems to work out pretty well for him.




bullshit man. this is essentially along the lines of the "Join shroomery in 03, build trust over 8 year" police thing. Why would he waste so many years in congress as a newbie, not fighting for corporations and not taking bribes and being for the people just so he could join and fuck us over?

he is OF and FOR the people




I agree...Tchan seems like a pretty smart guy but I have no idea what basis he has for the argument that Ron Paul is tricking voters by lying about his stance on drug prohibition.  Every question I hear Paul answer in reference to the war on drugs has been thought out enough that I don't see how anyone could think he is being dishonest...his view on drugs aligns with his other beliefs and I don't think any politician would end the war on drugs if they didn't think it was the best thing to do for the country.  It would be political suicide otherwise  If he were to be elected, I doubt the war on drugs would just disappear, but I'm sure he'd advocate for the end and leave it to the states to decide.

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OfflineMelloRed
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Re: Does Ron Paul have a chance? [Re: snitchelpowerz37]
    #14421192 - 05/08/11 07:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Paul has absolutely no chance.  The religious right and neo-conservatives are too much a part of the current GOP.  Sucks, because, while I think the changes Paul wants goes too far it would be better than the continuation of current policies the remaining candidates of both parties offer.

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Offlinerealfuzzhead
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Re: Does Ron Paul have a chance? [Re: MelloRed]
    #14421205 - 05/08/11 07:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)



you guys should watch this video, i have a basic understanding of economics and i think alot of what he thinks is quite true

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Offlinesnitchelpowerz37
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Re: Does Ron Paul have a chance? [Re: skatealex2] * 1
    #14421218 - 05/08/11 07:06 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

skatealex2 said:






You can just tell by his reactions that he is passionate about what he believes in. Or maybe Bill O' Reiley can just drive anyone mad ha.  Either way, what he says resonates with me and it'd be nice having a president that is willing to stand for what they believe.

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Does Ron Paul have a chance? [Re: MelloRed]
    #14421230 - 05/08/11 07:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, the thing is that Republican candidates are not nominated by popular vote. They are nominated by committees, and current Republican committees are politically at odds with everything Ron Paul claims to believe. I will literally give all you doubters money if Ron Paul gets nominated.

The Democratic party is different. Presidential candidates are nominated by popular vote. That's how Obama came straight out of left field to dominate the party. Nothing like that would ever happen in the GOP. Such "democratic" movements are doomed from the start.


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Offlinesnitchelpowerz37
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Re: Does Ron Paul have a chance? [Re: MelloRed]
    #14421246 - 05/08/11 07:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

look how popular he is in the polls now, and election is in what? like a year and half?  he has a lot of time to build up momentum.  i agree that the fact that he needs to be chosen to represent the republican party could be a major hinderance, but if society continues to degenerate i can only see paul's popularity going up as people will look for "change" that is actually tangible.

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OfflineMelloRed
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Re: Does Ron Paul have a chance? [Re: snitchelpowerz37]
    #14421278 - 05/08/11 07:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If he would leave the GOP, be independent, and start working now on getting on the ballot in every states' general election, he could have a small chance.  Perot showed that an independent can compete and the country's in a lot worse shape now than 1992 or 96.

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Offlinerealfuzzhead
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Re: Does Ron Paul have a chance? [Re: realfuzzhead] * 1
    #14421281 - 05/08/11 07:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

and this, seriously this man is a true patriot

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Does Ron Paul have a chance? [Re: snitchelpowerz37]
    #14421285 - 05/08/11 07:23 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It's not "the people" who will nominate Ron Paul. They won't get the chance. That's not how GOP hierarchy works. And that's why I can't take Paul's bombast seriously.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Does Ron Paul have a chance? [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #14421403 - 05/08/11 07:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

realfuzzhead said:


you guys should watch this video, i have a basic understanding of economics and i think alot of what he thinks is quite true



The hubris of those who confuse a "basic understanding" of economics with actually understanding economics lies at the heart of most libertarian talking points.  I'll set aside the silliness of his strict constructionist approach to the Constitution and focus on the economics of what he's saying.

For one, price-fixing was actually part and parcel of us getting out of the Depression.  People tend to point to WWII as what got us out, but they neglect to mention the specifics of how it accomplished this.  During WWII, there was rationing and price-fixing, and massive government takeover of the private sector.  Car factories were converted into military aircraft factories, and this massive public investment created full employment.  Price-fixing is not necessarily the best strategy, and I think generally it should be discouraged, but it's not nearly as black-and-white as he makes it out to be.  Furthermore, I find it ironic that he rants against price-fixing while also advocating a gold standard, which essentially means fixing the price of gold.

His point about where we're going to get 7 trillion dollars tells me two things:  He doesn't understand that the issuer of currency cannot run out of money, nor does he understand the difference between stocks and flows.  Every government in the world is in debt, and this is a normal state of affairs.  Those who want to point to a country like Greece to say we're at risk of default ignore the fact that Greece does not issue its own currency(the Euro is actually a big problem in that there is a monetary union with very little in the way of a political union).  Creditors love lending to sovereign governments because they are a reliable investment.  And furthermore, the debt does not have to be paid back all at once.  The government can continue servicing the debt at a constant rate.

As for his criticism of credit creation, I find this particularly amusing.  Credit creation is necessary for the money supply to meet the market demand for money.  The alternative idea of a strict gold standard where our currency is tied to an arbitrary shiny metal that has nothing to do with market demand is actually quite anti-market.  Credit money is great at meeting demand, in a way that commodity-based money never could(fortunately, the kind of purely commodity-based money that so many libertarians envision has never actually existed).

That's all I've got for now, but I encourage people to study economics outside of the simple-minded stuff you hear from the Austrian school(there are actually a few good ideas in the Austrian school, but they get weighed down with a bunch of absolutist free market dogma).


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OfflineGastronomicus
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Re: Does Ron Paul have a chance? [Re: Silversoul]
    #14421602 - 05/08/11 08:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks for that post Silver, it was very enlightening. I don't know shit about economics


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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: Does Ron Paul have a chance? [Re: Silversoul] * 1
    #14421753 - 05/08/11 08:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:

I find it ironic that he rants against price-fixing while also advocating a gold standard, which essentially means fixing the price of gold.




This is not fixing the the price of gold any more than saying a dollar is worth a dollar. If you have a reserve note that was worth one troy ounce of gold it is worth the market value of one troy ounce of gold the same way a dollar holds a market value.  This is not price fixing. Price fixing would be like the gold standard we had up until the 70's where we said 1 oz of gold is worth 20 dollars, which doesn't reflect market value of gold

Quote:

His point about where we're going to get 7 trillion dollars tells me two things:  He doesn't understand that the issuer of currency cannot run out of money




Paul isn't saying we will run out of money he is saying the risks of printing 7 trillion dollars are too high. It devalues the dollar which causes commodity prices to rise such as oil and gold. Recently China has been talking about getting rid of the dollar as it's reserve currency on the dollar's down slide the past 12 months. Our treasury bond market is also nearly collapsed because of a weak dollar causing the Federal Reserve to own nearly 70% of the bonds with quantative easing which further weakens the dollar.

Quote:

  And furthermore, the debt does not have to be paid back all at once.  The government can continue servicing the debt at a constant rate.

As for his criticism of credit creation, I find this particularly amusing.  Credit creation is necessary for the money supply to meet the market demand for money.  The alternative idea of a strict gold standard where our currency is tied to an arbitrary shiny metal that has nothing to do with market demand is actually quite anti-market. 



You are sort of twisting his words. He's not saying credit creation is bad he is saying the unprecedented creation of credit is bad, which is commonly referred to as the boom and bust cycle. Gold is no more arbitrary than paper. it's the increase in the supply that is important, and gold has nearly always increased in supply 2-5% percent per year even in bad years and gold rushes. To say gold is anti-market is actually pretty funny considering gold has been used for thousands of years as money and the market essentially created it as a currency just as it did the dollar.

Edited by Rebirtha (05/08/11 09:05 PM)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Does Ron Paul have a chance? [Re: Rebirtha]
    #14421864 - 05/08/11 09:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Rebirtha said:
This is not fixing the the price of gold any more than saying a dollar is worth a dollar. If you have a reserve note that was worth one troy ounce of gold it is worth the market value of one troy ounce of gold the same way a dollar holds a market value.  This is not price fixing. Price fixing would be like the gold standard we had up until the 70's where we said 1 oz of gold is worth 20 dollars, which doesn't reflect market value of gold



The only form of gold standard which isn't price fixing is the kind where the currency is actually made from gold.  In those cases, the amount stamped on the gold coins is higher than the actual commodity value of the coin.

Quote:

Paul isn't saying we will run out of money he is saying the risks of printing 7 trillion dollars are too high. It devalues the dollar which causes commodity prices to rise such as oil and gold. Recently China has been talking about getting rid of the dollar as it's reserve currency on the dollar's down slide the past 12 months. Our treasury bond market is also nearly collapsed because of a weak dollar causing the Federal Reserve to own nearly 70% of the bonds with quantative easing which further weakens the dollar.



Fair enough, except that quantitative easing pretty much has no effect one way or the other as long as the banks aren't lending.  Creating more money does not affect prices until it's actually circulated, except insofar as it affects perceptions(which are actually much bigger determinants of price levels than the money supply).

Quote:

You are sort of twisting his words. He's not saying credit creation is bad he is saying the unprecedented creation of credit is bad, which is commonly referred to as the boom and bust cycle. Gold is no more arbitrary than paper. it's the increase in the supply that is important, and gold has nearly always increased in supply 2-5% percent per year even in bad years and gold rushes. To say gold is anti-market is actually pretty funny considering gold has been used for thousands as money and the market essentially created it as a currency just as it did the dollar.



Gold's use as money basically had to do with its malleability, making it easy to stamp coins.  After paper money was invented and people got the idea their money was "backed" by gold, it was little more than a confidence game in which there existed a credit money system that pretended to be backed by gold.  You mention the increase in supply, which is precisely the weakness of gold money.  The market at a given time has a certain demand for money, and that demand is met by the issue of credit.  Gold, on the other hand, doesn't care what the demand for money is, which can lead to deflation and stagnation(except that, as I mentioned, the so-called "gold standard" was really just a credit money system pretending to be backed by gold).  That is what I mean when I say it is anti-market.


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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: Does Ron Paul have a chance? [Re: Silversoul] * 1
    #14421918 - 05/08/11 09:23 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
The only form of gold standard which isn't price fixing is the kind where the currency is actually made from gold.  In those cases, the amount stamped on the gold coins is higher than the actual commodity value of the coin.




This is not true. The 'standard' part of the gold standard is saying you are holding the value of a dollar standard to an amount of gold. A true gold standard is not pure gold coins, it is easily a currency backed by gold where there is no price but a weight.



Quote:


Fair enough, except that quantitative easing pretty much has no effect one way or the other as long as the banks aren't lending.  Creating more money does not affect prices until it's actually circulated, except insofar as it affects perceptions(which are actually much bigger determinants of price levels than the money supply).





Yes the velocity of money right now is flat, but the distortion has been made and while the market starts picks up so does lending, and it will be released. The perception is still horrible too, the yearly dollar chart is dismal.

Quote:


Gold's use as money basically had to do with its malleability, making it easy to stamp coins.  After paper money was invented and people got the idea their money was "backed" by gold, it was little more than a confidence game in which there existed a credit money system that pretended to be backed by gold.  You mention the increase in supply, which is precisely the weakness of gold money.  The market at a given time has a certain demand for money, and that demand is met by the issue of credit.  Gold, on the other hand, doesn't care what the demand for money is, which can lead to deflation and stagnation(except that, as I mentioned, the so-called "gold standard" was really just a credit money system pretending to be backed by gold).  That is what I mean when I say it is anti-market.




This is true yet the federal reserve consistently gets market expectations wrong such as the housing bubble, neither is perfect. But I agree with you in many regards.

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Invisibleblazenn
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Re: Does Ron Paul have a chance? [Re: Silversoul]
    #14421924 - 05/08/11 09:24 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
He doesn't understand that the issuer of currency cannot run out of money, nor does he understand the difference between stocks and flows.




you seem to believe the USD has a permanent spot at the top of global currencies, which would be a pretty naive assumption.

imagine for a second what it would be like if every country in the world wasn't using the USD for global trade. our ability to print more money wouldn't mean SHIT. the value of our dollar too would not mean SHIT.

it may be hard to comprehend but the USD isn't going to be the world's reserve currency for ever. and at the rate our economy is declining while our debt is rising, our dollar is just going to lose it's value faster and faster.

some countries are already making the move away from using the USD.

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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: Does Ron Paul have a chance? [Re: blazenn]
    #14422024 - 05/08/11 09:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Here is a great article about the velocity of lending recently

http://www.econbrowser.com/archives/2011/03/velocity_of_fed.html

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