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OfflineoO_wombat_Oo
Stranger
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Registered: 06/04/01
Posts: 812
Loc: NSW, Australia.
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: An apology from a Canadian... [Re: Little Shroom]
    #1445815 - 04/10/03 06:03 AM (21 years, 17 days ago)

I think you're piss weak. Move to the US, buddy.

I hate our involvment in the killing, but I am sort of proud that it's so damn small nobody even remembers.

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OfflineMacey Howard
Formally MOE HOWARD
Female

Registered: 07/02/99
Posts: 14,165
Loc: Georgia
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: An apology from a Canadian... [Re: Little Shroom]
    #1445834 - 04/10/03 06:29 AM (21 years, 17 days ago)

There's no need to appologize.. people have a choice to do what they want. I aint mad at you :laugh: 

We  love you :laugh: 


--------------------
Hugs and Kisses!

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Invisibleno-tone
Enema Bag Jones

Registered: 10/16/00
Posts: 1,091
Loc: Warm, Moist and Dark
Re: An apology from a Canadian... [Re: Little Shroom]
    #1445854 - 04/10/03 06:52 AM (21 years, 17 days ago)

To: Ambassador Paul Cellucci, Embassy of the United States of America, 490 Sussex Dr., Ottawa, Ont.

DEAR MR. AMBASSADOR:

Your recent remarks about Canada's policy with respect to Iraq were inaccurate, inappropriate and offensive. Prime Minister Chretien is maintaining a delicate balance between U.S. pressure and Canadian opinion - a familiar position for Canadian prime ministers - and he will not tell you to go pound sand. But someone should.

Fundamentally, you argue that the United States would instantly come to the aid of Canada in an emergency, and Canada should therefore participate in your ill-advised attack on Iraq. "There is no security threat to Canada that the United States would not be ready, willing and able to help with," you are quoted as saying. "There would be no debate. There would be no hesitation. We would be there for Canada, part of our family."

Codswallop. And that's being diplomatic.

The primary threat to Canadian security has always been the United States. A monument in Quebec honours my earliest Canadian ancestor for repelling an invasion from your home state of Massachusetts in 1690. The very first instance of military co-operation among the 13 colonies occurred in 1745 under the leadership of James Shirley, your predecessor as governor of Massachusetts, whose army invaded Nova Scotia and captured the Fortress of Louisbourg.

Thirty years later, during the American Revolution, your privateers sacked our ports. We were at war once more in 1812-15. The birth of Canada in 1867 was prompted by fears of a U.S. invasion. That's why our railroad runs along the Gulf of St. Lawrence, far from the U.S. border.

Do you remember manifest destiny, the 1840s U.S. doctrine which held that your country had a God-given mission to rule all of North America? Do you remember "Fifty-four-forty or fight," the slogan that rallied Americans to threaten an invasion in 1902 over the Alaska boundary? Yours is the only country that has ever invaded ours, and it would do so again in a wink if it thought its interests here were seriously threatened.

And how does your sentimental mantra of perpetual willingness to spring to our assistance apply to the First World War, which we entered in 1914, while you stayed out for three years? We went to war against Hitler in 1939, while you were moved to join your sister democracies only after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor two years later. A million Canadians fought in the Second World War, and 45,000 died. We need no lectures from Americans about the defence of liberty and democracy. Nevertheless, despite the strains of our history, we are probably as close as any two nations in the world. Many Canadians - I am one - have family members who are American citizens. Our two nations fought together not only in two World Wars, but also to repel the invasions of South Korea in 1949 and Kuwait in 1991.

And when great catastrophe strikes without warning, our people have indeed been there for each other. As governor of Massachusetts, you must have been present at the lighting of the Christmas tree in Boston each year - an annual gift from Nova Scotia to commemorate the immediate and massive assistance of Massachusetts after the Halifax Explosion (EDIT:note from no-tone- The Halifax Explosion was the largest non-nuclear explosion in history, and still is.) in 1917. Our chance to reciprocate came on Sept. 11, 2001, when Canadian communities took in, on an instant's notice, 40,000 passengers from U.S. planes forced down by the terrorist attacks.

Halifax alone hosted 7,200(EDIT: note from no-tone- Halifax has a population of ~350 000). We housed them in our homes and schools and churches, fed them and comforted them and treated them as family. We probably gave more immediate and practical assistance to Americans than any other country. Yet when your president later thanked nations for their help,
he did not mention Canada.

The Iraq conflict, however, is not an unforeseen disaster, but a deliberate choice. Your president has squandered a worldwide outpouring of sympathy and solidarity in less than two years - an astounding diplomatic debacle. Your own remarks, with their dark hints of economic revenge, are entirely consistent with the Bush administration's policy of diplomacy by bullying, bribing and threatening.

A huge body of opinion, even in the U.S. and Britain, judges this war to be illegal, reckless and irrelevant to the fight against terrorism. Your government appears to have forgotten Osama bin Laden, and not to have noticed that the Sept. 11 terrorists were mostly Saudi, not Iraqi. They lived not in Baghdad but in Hamburg and San Diego. The Iraq campaign is a sideshow, a grudge match, a distraction. It will breed more martyrs, and more terrorists.

Back in Massachusetts, in 1846, a young man was arrested and jailed for refusing to pay taxes, to avoid supporting his government's deplorable
policies.

He explained this in an essay, On the Duty of Civil Disobedience, which has ever since inspired people like Gandhi and Martin Luther King. His name was Henry David Thoreau, and no doubt the governor of Massachusetts thought he was a pretty poor American. He was not; like King, he was a voice for what is finest in American life and values. And the issue on which he took his stand may sound a bit familiar. He was opposed to an imperial war - the unprovoked U.S. invasion which stripped Mexico of 40 per cent of its territory.

Good citizens - and good friends - oppose bad policies. By telling you the truth, they strive to save you from folly.

They may be mistaken, but they are not your enemies.

That is the message you should take back to the White House, whether or not there is anyone there who will understand it.

Sincerely,
Silver Donald Cameron

*Award-winning author Silver Donald Cameron lives in D'Escousse.


--------------------
Man thinks. God laughs. - Jewish Proverb

Edited by no-tone (04/10/03 07:03 AM)

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OfflineSuper_Wario
Berry farmer.

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 38
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 21 years, 2 days
Re: An apology from a Canadian... [Re: Dogomush]
    #1446367 - 04/10/03 11:41 AM (21 years, 17 days ago)

"to help our friend when they are threatened by the forces of evil"

The US was not threatened.

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: An apology from a Canadian... [Re: In(di)go]
    #1446447 - 04/10/03 12:06 PM (21 years, 17 days ago)

In(di)go writes:

...but the american's started a war and fucked over a country WITHOUT the support of the UN...

So you are saying it's okay to "start" a war and "fuck over" a country as long as enough members of the UN Security Council say it's okay?

Also, note that the the coalition of US, UK, Australia, etc. didn't start a war -- they resumed one. The conditional cease-fire agreement of 1991 had yet to be fulfilled by one of the signing parties -- Iraq. Despite twelve years of pushing, prodding, poking, shoving, inspecting, resolutioning and sanctioning, the UN was unable to persuade Iraq to fulfill even a single condition of that agreement. Not one.

There's literally millennia of precedent here -- a conditional cease-fire agreement in which one signatory fails to fulfill its obligations historically always has been null and void, and hostilities may be resumed by the other signatory at any time. Certainly a span of twelve years is not "jumping the gun". This is nothing new -- it has been the way surrenders have worked since the dawn of recorded history.

... so america better deal with the consequences and rebuild the mess it left on its fucking own...

It appears you have great reverence for the UN, so you will be relieved to know that although the UN was opposed to deposing Hussein, they now insist on having the upper hand in deciding the fate of post-Hussein Iraq. Therefore not only will the US and UK and Australia, etc. not have to do it on their own, they will not be allowed to do it on their own.

... america starts a war that is "alegedly" for peace when its actually for money...

A completely arbitrary assertion with not a shred of supporting argument. Proof, please?

... and when the war is over the united nations have to pay for the reconstruction...

Not if France and Russia and Germany et al have their way.

... i remember that the actual reason this war started (please, NEVER forget this) was because "president" bush thought that saddam had biochemichal weapons...

Incorrect. The actual reason the war was resumed was that the conditions of the ceasefire agreement remained unfulfilled. The condition that received the most attention was the one requiring Hussein to provide credible proof of the destruction of the chem and bio weapons he was known to have, but it was not the only condition.

... having a democracy installed by themselves will help them control where the oil flows to...

Excuse me? How can one "install" a democracy? The Iraqi people will vote for their new government, not American people. Their government will determine where their oil goes. If they disagree with the government's decision, they are free to vote that government out of office. That's how democracy works, remember?

...and finally, did they find any biochemical weapons? i didnt think so...

Not yet. So what? They did, however, find some SCUDS -- which Iraq was also obligated to have destroyed twelve years ago. It is almost a certainty that they will eventually find the chem and bio weapons, too. Interesting that the first inspectors who were there for years missed the SCUDS, as did the latest inspectors who were there for months, yet troops found them within days of entering Baghdad. See this picture from focus.de:

http://news.focus.msn.de/G/GE/ge.htm?bild_tmp=21&snr=1966&streamsnr=7&newssnr=118790

... so according the the first and actual purpose that was presented, this war was a total fiasco...

What? How on earth do you come to that conclusion? A brutal murderer has been disposed, the road is clear for Iraqis to have their own government for the first time in three decades, the conditions of the ceasefire agreement can now be fulfilled, sanctions can be lifted, food sitting in warehouses that was hijacked by Hussein's thugs to sell on the black market to starving Iraqis will now be distributed, children imprisoned for refusing to join the Saddam Youth have been released, the torture chambers and rape rooms have been shut down, infrastructure can be rebuilt rather than new palaces -- I could go on, but perhaps you are starting to get the picture.

I guess your definition of "fiasco" is different from the universally-accepted definition..

pinky


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Edited by pinksharkmark (04/10/03 12:08 PM)

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InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/29/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: An apology from a Canadian... [Re: Phred]
    #1447447 - 04/10/03 04:41 PM (21 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

So you are saying it's okay to "start" a war and "fuck over" a country as long as enough members of the UN Security Council say it's okay?


that is not what i said... in my eyes it is NEVER ok to start, resume or continue a war no matter how much UN folks say they approve... what i was trying to say is that the states decided to resume the war (which is bad enough as it is)  even though the united nations were against it (which makes it even worse)...

and although you are right about the "resuming" thing, i have a few things to add... why exactly did they resume the war right now, when they could have done it a few years ago? does it have anything to do with the fact that the us "president" together with a lot of other folks in the white house own one of the worlds largest oil companies? and could you please tell me why when that cease-fire treaty was signed, the states and the other countries in the coallition didnt choose to disarm THEIR countries? what gives THEM the right to own such weapons that doesnt apply to irak? that is not the way to achieve peace, sir... there is never going to be peace on earth while any country carries weapons of mass destruction... many will say that the weapons are only for self-defence, and thus not dangerous while in the right hands... well in my eyes there is no such thing as "the right hands" when it comes to abc-weapons... unless you give them to jesus, the buddha, ghandhi or another person who has the amount of spiritual understanding they had... do that and you will see that the weapons will be destroyed in a matter of days... so, are you going to tell me that if irak would have complied with the conditions of disarming the country, the states would have done the same? no sir...

and yes, i am kind of relieved that the UN insists on participating in the reconstruction, although i must say that i dont trust them either... they have done some pretty fucked up stuff, too... but they're better in any case than the american government... the only thing that worries me is that it is going to be my tax money repairing the mess that the states left... when i think bush, blair and the rest of the warmongers should be paying for the reconstrucition with their own friggin money, not with the money of their country, and above all not with the money of the innocent people that want peace on this planet... maybe then they would understand what we are going through...

you state that the UN will not have to pay for the reconstruction if germany, france and the rest have it their way... well tell me why shouldnt they? we never supported this war to begin with... but as i see things coming we will have to participate, for there is no argueing with big boss bush unless we want our country invaded, too...

you want proof that this war is for money? check the link i gave you in the post you replied to... and read "stupid white men" from micheal moore... or check this link out (since you digged something from focus.de, i suppose you understand a little german)  Attack in the Name of "Peace" ... there are other articles and proofs, but im not going through the work to dig them up right now... not just to convince you from my point of view...

Quote:

Incorrect. The actual reason the war was resumed was that the conditions of the ceasefire agreement remained unfulfilled. The condition that received the most attention was the one requiring Hussein to provide credible proof of the destruction of the chem and bio weapons he was known to have, but it was not the only condition.



heh... b&b (bush n blair) twisted that around pretty well... they asked for proof of the destruction fo the weapons, but they never proved that they weren't destroyed... did they even give the inspectors enough time? even if they would have found weapons, what makes you think saddam would have used them, if he didnt use them for 12 friggin years... and if saddam would have had such weapons, why doesnt he use them now, that he actually would have a reason? in my eyes, this war is completely unjustified... the bottom line is still money...

Quote:

Excuse me? How can one "install" a democracy? The Iraqi people will vote for their new government, not American people. Their government will determine where their oil goes. If they disagree with the government's decision, they are free to vote that government out of office. That's how democracy works, remember?



well... first, have you thought about the fact that these people have no friggin idea how a democracy works? they have had a dictator for about 25 years... do you know how much time it takes to form political parties? how are you going to make these people see that they are "in control" now? (provided thats what happens during a democracy, but the states proved that fact wrong during the elections in 2000)... second, even if the parties are founded and elections take place, who is to show the irakies that you dont shoot someone just because he follows another political party? and third, do you really think that ANY political party in irak is going to inform the people to what country the oil is beeing selled and at what price? i dont think so... so everything will work this way: the americans are going to "help" the irakies build a few parties, and show them how to vote (whom to vote)... believe me although officially it will not seem so, the american government will have irak and its oil pretty much under control...

Quote:

Not yet. So what? They did, however, find some SCUDS -- which Iraq was also obligated to have destroyed twelve years ago. It is almost a certainty that they will eventually find the chem and bio weapons, too. Interesting that the first inspectors who were there for years missed the SCUDS, as did the latest inspectors who were there for months, yet troops found them within days of entering Baghdad. See this picture from focus.de:



you are giving me 2 scuds as a justification for the death of thousands of innocent people? please! im not going to be final on this, but i dont think they will find any bio-chemical weapons... and if they do, who is to say that america didnt put them there to justify what they did? not possible you say? remember that the us government financed and armed irak to fight against iran... just as they financed, armed and trained the taliban to fight the russian... and then they are surprised when those folks come back and bite them in the ass... if the us government was capable of doing that, it is capable of smuggling some biochems into irak and pretend they just found them...

and about your last paragraph, im gonna let you think about what may or not be happening in irak right now...

and well, i still think this war is a total fiasco... but remember... its all relative  :smirk:


--------------------

Edited by In(di)go (04/10/03 04:58 PM)

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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: An apology from a Canadian... [Re: Phred]
    #1447470 - 04/10/03 04:47 PM (21 years, 17 days ago)

so many disagreements.

At least we all agree on one thing: The USA is the most evil country in the world.

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OfflineJust a Punk
Shithawk

Registered: 12/25/00
Posts: 1,145
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
Re: An apology from a Canadian... [Re: Phluck]
    #1447485 - 04/10/03 04:57 PM (21 years, 17 days ago)

Agreed.

Canadians were the last to be recognized as "friends" by Bush when he came into power. Canadians were also the first to lend aid when their buildings fell down.

The American political system is a stagnant cesspool of ignorance, intolerance, greed and bigotry.

Not only does the states not need our help, they shouldn't even be fighting this war in the first place. Unfortunately for LS, the majority of Canadians feel this way.

So let this be my un-apology. Fuck war.


--------------------
-------------------------------------------------
:B

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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: An apology from a Canadian... [Re: Just a Punk]
    #1447616 - 04/10/03 05:56 PM (21 years, 17 days ago)

DEATH TO WAR!!!!

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InvisibleRipple
Ripple
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/16/02
Posts: 21,014
Loc: the timbers of Fennario
Re: An apology from a Canadian... [Re: Little Shroom]
    #1447750 - 04/10/03 06:46 PM (21 years, 17 days ago)

I have heard the same thing from so many of my friends up north!  :smile:

Thank you for the post LS...it means a lot! 


--------------------
The bus came by and I got on that's when it all began!


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OfflineBullfrog1
Discovery BeyondImagination

Registered: 07/03/02
Posts: 272
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
Re: An apology from a Canadian... [Re: Dogomush]
    #1447794 - 04/10/03 07:02 PM (21 years, 17 days ago)

Doogy,
I disagree with your post. Many countries, such as the old Rwanda regime killed 800,000 of their own people not too many years ago. Sometime in the 80's I believe. What has the US done to compare with that? Was that not evil?
Or the old USSR when Stalin killed approximately 40 million of HIS own?
Or Japan, who during WWII, invaded China and wiped out 110,000 chinese civilians in 2 years?
Your comment is grossly miscalculated!
Evil is in the eye of the beholder. Granted we're not the fucking saints of the world, but many have done drastically worse. Read the numbers.


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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: An apology from a Canadian... [Re: Bullfrog1]
    #1447851 - 04/10/03 07:23 PM (21 years, 17 days ago)

yeah I was joking hahaha

but seriously.. the USA is the only country to be charged with international terrorrism by the world court. Fucked up shit man

I liked that bit about the japanese killing chinese. hehe I like the thought of japanese running around china killing people. Brings a smile to my face.

So do nuclear bombs hitting hiroshima and nagasaki. But I guess the Chinese had to strike back somehow and the only way they could is fly their planes over Japan and drop nuclear bombs on them.

read the numbers you say??? YOU WANT ME TO READ NUMBERS HERE ARE SOME FUCKING NUMBERS:

12 679 7896 09 67 98 0 6 97 56 97 9 98 7 87 76 8 9 08 09 97 86 67

CHEW ON THOSE BUDDY




ok, so at least we can all agree on one thing on this forum:

Little shrooms should be eaten alive by ... lions.

Hehehehe not the person of course. but actual *little shrooms*


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: An apology from a Canadian... [Re: In(di)go]
    #1447868 - 04/10/03 07:31 PM (21 years, 17 days ago)

In(di)go:

I will happily slice apart your points in the Politics, Activism, and Law forum rather than contribute further to the derailing of Little Shroom's thread. I actually shouldn't have even responded to your post here at all, and I apologize to Little Shroom for taking her thread further off-topic than it had been taken before I arrived.

I was wrong to play that game -- this is The Pub, after all.

So In(di)go, do you want to open a new thread in the PA&L forum by cutting and pasting your last post there, or would you prefer I do it?

pinky


--------------------

Edited by pinksharkmark (04/10/03 07:33 PM)

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InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/29/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: An apology from a Canadian... [Re: Phred]
    #1447900 - 04/10/03 07:38 PM (21 years, 17 days ago)

bueno caballero... si realmente desea continuar esta discusi?n, puede copiar y pegar mi respuesta en P,A & L... pero antes quiero que me responda una pregunta: what good is it going to be for us two to continue entangling ourselves in this subject? it's quite obvious that we do not share the same view on the world and nothing is going to come from our discusion... it will not undo the war and the killing... and personally i don't even think it will satisfy our ego because quite clearly no one is going to agree with each other on this... if you really feel the need to "slice up" my reply, then go ahead and do it... ill come check out the results...

PEACE


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InvisibleLittle Shroom
Resident Faerie
Female

Registered: 06/22/99
Posts: 3,737
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Re: An apology from a Canadian... [Re: In(di)go]
    #1450582 - 04/11/03 06:02 PM (21 years, 16 days ago)

Thanks for the support, to some of you.
I do have a longer arguement, and I will make it known when I have more time to type it...


I hope we can still be friends.

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InvisibleThorA
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
Re: An apology from a Canadian... [Re: Little Shroom]
    #1450605 - 04/11/03 06:14 PM (21 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

I hope we can still be friends.



No.

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InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/29/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: An apology from a Canadian... [Re: Little Shroom]
    #1451033 - 04/11/03 09:08 PM (21 years, 16 days ago)

of course we can! its noble from you to want to support your fellow americans... i just dont agree with whats happening... but thats no reason to give up a friendship!


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InvisibleXibalba
Stranger
Registered: 05/13/00
Posts: 2,114
Re: An apology from a Canadian... [Re: Little Shroom]
    #1451728 - 04/12/03 02:38 AM (21 years, 15 days ago)

Found a better one:


A BLANKET APOLOGY TO THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA?????

Courtesy of Rick Mercer from This Hour Has 22 Minutes CBC Television:

On behalf of Canadians everywhere I'd like to offer an apology to the
United States of America. We haven't been getting along very well
recently and for that, I am truly sorry.

I'm sorry we called George Bush a moron. He is a moron, but it wasn't
nice of us to point it out. If it's any consolation, the fact that
he's a moron shouldn't reflect poorly on the people of America. After
all it's not like you actually elected him.

I'm sorry about our softwood lumber. Just because we have more trees
than you doesn't give us the right to sell you lumber that's cheaper
and better than your own.

I'm sorry we beat you in Olympic hockey. In our defense I guess our
excuse would be that our team was much, much, much, much better than yours.

I'm sorry we burnt down your white house during the war of 1812. I
notice you've rebuilt it! It's Very Nice.

I'm sorry about your beer. I know we had nothing to do with your beer
but, we Feel your Pain.

I'm sorry about our waffling on Iraq. I mean, when you're going up
against a crazed dictator, you wanna have your friends by your side.
I realize it took more than two years before you guys pitched in
against Hitler, but that was different. Everyone knew he had weapons.

And finally on behalf of all Canadians, I'm sorry that we're constantly
apologizing for things in a passive-aggressive way, which is really a
thinly veiled criticism. I sincerely hope that you're not upset over
this. We've seen what you do to countries you get upset with.

Thank you.



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Invisibleno-tone
Enema Bag Jones

Registered: 10/16/00
Posts: 1,091
Loc: Warm, Moist and Dark
Re: An apology from a Canadian... [Re: Xibalba]
    #1451876 - 04/12/03 06:45 AM (21 years, 15 days ago)

I'm pretty sure that was actually written by Colin Mochary. He's the bald hilarious Canadian on "Who's Line is is Anyway?"

Its so true though.


--------------------
Man thinks. God laughs. - Jewish Proverb

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: An apology from a Canadian... [Re: In(di)go]
    #1452514 - 04/12/03 01:00 PM (21 years, 15 days ago)

In(di)go writes:

what good is it going to be for us two to continue entangling ourselves in this subject? it's quite obvious that we do not share the same view on the world and nothing is going to come from our discusion... it will not undo the war and the killing... and personally i don't even think it will satisfy our ego because quite clearly no one is going to agree with each other on this...

If you really feel this is the case, why did you bother to slam little Shroom at all? Why did you bother to reply to my post? You must have known in advance that people would disagree with you and that "no one is going to agree with each other on this."

ill come check out the results...

Okay. I'll see you there .

pinky


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