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OfflineRadioActiveSlug
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Registered: 03/14/03
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PATRIOTIC BLUES
    #1441783 - 04/09/03 04:54 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

BEHIND THE BUSHES


How many times does one have to explain to a neoconservative or their fogged up supporters that the government in Washington is not what America is all about? When will these perverted minds be able to comprehend that the shining light on the hill, America, was never intended to be defined by what the vast bureaucracies in DC and the elites that run them, say and do, the federal government has become an anathema to every principle that this nation was founded upon. When will they understand that a war to destroy evil is an impossibility, and if you engage in the same evil to fight a perceived evil, you only achieve the augmentation of evil itself. Evil feeds on evil, that’s how it grows and spreads its venomous excrement throughout humanity. Breaking constitutional and international laws to aggressively invade another country is an evil act.




There is no moral justification that can justify a war that has nothing to do with this nations security, Iraq has never presented itself as a plausible threat to the United States, as we now see, Iraq can barely defend herself from an invasion, so how could she then have been regarded as a military threat to the United States? The answer is that it was always a bunch of fabrications by the Bush clan and nothing more. Freeing a people from tyranny is also an illegitimate justification; no American should be sacrificed for a nation on the other side of the planet on the simplistic grounds of utopian humanitarianism, it’s not our business or responsibility. Destroying an evil dictator so he cannot in the future start a war of mass destruction is also an illegitimate position because it is based entirely on conjecture and suppositions and no foreign policy should be determined on rough guesses.

The act of using the flag as a blind folder to the truth is an immoral act in itself, and this is where many Americans find themselves when trying to justify and defend the morally unattainable. They instinctively resort to false accusations against some of those that oppose conquering the Middle East for the interests of the few at the expense of the many, of being un-American or just flat out un-patriotic, and spew out old jingoisms and clich?s such as love it or leave it, it’s a war for freedom, a war against evil, a war against terrorism, a war for a secure future, and so on. All proven to be baseless and contrived many times over. Granted, there are many on the left that hate America and use any opportunity to trash her, this war being no exception.

The State and its minions does not have the authority to dictate what is patriotic behavior, the State definitely has no moral standing to speak of, and the immoral case that demands that Americans, right or wrong, must support the State in time of war is nothing more than mindless rhetoric worthy of scorn and derision, the Bush clan does not represent all of America, they never have and they never will. Deep down in the American conscious is a desire to be free from government tyranny, be it domestic or foreign, and it is very un-American to have Washington DC pursue imperialistic policies abroad and subjugate other peoples by force. Eventually Americans will realize that this is the case, and will try to put an end to this elitist subversion; it might be too late by then.

I am reminded of Edward Abbey’s statement – “A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government”, holds true today more than ever. There is a very pernicious criminal element within the Bush administration with the head honcho being its despicable leader, and wrapping oneself with the red white and blue will not hide you from the truth for long, you see, the truth in the end always finds a way to the surface so it can be revealed for all to see. And one thing boy George and his war buddies hate is anyone making the attempt to reveal the truth in what they are doing in the Middle East.

In recent interviews President Bush when faced with legitimate, daunting and penetrating questions, very few get through the screeners; after the initial confusion reveals a contemptuous face, lined with complete arrogance towards the audacity of such inquiries, any redolent criticisms is not to be tolerated and is extremely un-patriotic. Why? Because such questions could reveal the truth, and all the answers to the reasons for the illegal acts perpetrated by the Bush clan would be seen to be based on lies and half truths, and such a general revelation to the American public would bring the Bush clan swiftly to impeachment and criminal trials if the rule of law was still applicable to the ruling class in America. They lie to justify their morally bankrupt positions and criminality, then they lie some more to achieve a perception of vindication and righteousness, and finally sugar coat it with some more lies for the record.

Where has all this brought us as a society, its brought us to a demonic reality that permeates almost all facets of public life, a mass delusion of Babylon, no wonder the neocons are so intent on going to their spiritual home in the middle of Mesopotamia. The Bush clique demands that others go to kill others to justify their demonic existence. Their judgment will come sooner or later, here on earth or in the next continuance, either way; their ship will set sail on the gleaming lake of fire - that is their true destiny.





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"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned." -Buddha
www.impeach-bush-now.org


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InvisibleFloydian
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Registered: 05/14/00
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Re: PATRIOTIC BLUES [Re: RadioActiveSlug]
    #1442117 - 04/09/03 09:03 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

extremely well said. I feel nothing but a great sadness when I think of all the people who cant and/or refuse to see the sickness behind this war. I also feel great sadness when I think of the extremely limited capicity for those of us who do see it, to stop the forces behind it. These forces were set in motion long before we existed and their effects will manifest long after we are gone.


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Don't squeeze the pancake batter


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OfflinePhred
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Re: PATRIOTIC BLUES [Re: RadioActiveSlug]
    #1442300 - 04/09/03 10:57 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

RadioActiveSlug quotes:

When will they understand that a war to destroy evil is an impossibility, and if you engage in the same evil to fight a perceived evil, you only achieve the augmentation of evil itself.

By this logic, opposing Nazi Germany augmented evil itself.

Freeing a people from tyranny is also an illegitimate justification; no American should be sacrificed for a nation on the other side of the planet on the simplistic grounds of utopian humanitarianism, it's not our business or responsibility.

See above.

Granted, there are many on the left that hate America and use any opportunity to trash her, this war being no exception.

Well, duh!

Deep down in the American conscious is a desire to be free from government tyranny, be it domestic or foreign, and it is very un-American to have Washington DC pursue imperialistic policies abroad and subjugate other peoples by force.

The Iraqi people have been subjugated, all right, but not by the coalition forces. Apparently it's perfectly okay for thugs to subjugate their own people by force, since it is of no concern to anyone but the subjugator and the subjugated, right? -- "...it's not our business or responsibility."

Where has all this brought us as a society, its brought us to a demonic reality that permeates almost all facets of public life, a mass delusion of Babylon, no wonder the neocons are so intent on going to their spiritual home in the middle of Mesopotamia. The Bush clique demands that others go to kill others to justify their demonic existence. Their judgment will come sooner or later, here on earth or in the next continuance, either way; their ship will set sail on the gleaming lake of fire - that is their true destiny.

Demonic? Babylon? Lake of fire?

This guy should take a valium and chill.

pinky


--------------------


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InvisibleFloydian
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Registered: 05/14/00
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Re: PATRIOTIC BLUES [Re: Phred]
    #1442440 - 04/09/03 11:42 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I hate the comparison of this situation to Nazi germany. they are nothing a like. Nazi germany was attempting (and succeeding at it too) to take over the whole of europe and was extremely powerful. this is a broken nation that can barely defend itself and has no real power. In WW2 we didnt get involved until we were attacked and it was apparent that there was no other alternative. In WW2 we were the defenders not the aggressors. This war was our decision. We made the first move, we threw the first stone. There is no parralel here.

besides, this war is not in the least bit about freeing people from tyranny. That is the PR side note at best. its about power plain and simple. We are not on a noble crusade here. we are merely maintaining our post-cold war dominance as a super-power.


--------------------
Don't squeeze the pancake batter


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OfflinePhred
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Re: PATRIOTIC BLUES [Re: Floydian]
    #1442518 - 04/09/03 12:10 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Floydian writes:

I hate the comparison of this situation to Nazi germany.

I don't say that America was incorrect to involve itself in freeing Europe from Nazi Germany. I merely point out that when the author of that apalling screed uses sweeping statements such as "if you engage in the same evil to fight a perceived evil, you only achieve the augmentation of evil itself," he is incorrect.

In WW2 we didnt get involved until we were attacked and it was apparent that there was no other alternative.

The US was never attacked by Germany, it was attacked by Japan. Of course there was an alternative --the alternative that faced the US (and there were many, MANY Americans who were in favor of this) was to ignore Nazi Germany, as it was no threat to the US, and instead to concentrate all its resources on fighting a single front war against Japan, leaving England and Russia to finish off Hitler. There is no disputing that if America had followed this course, the war in the Pacific would have ended much sooner, and it may not even have been necessary to use atomics to achieve Japan's surrender.

But that is getting off topic. My point was that the author uses faulty reasoning in presenting his "position", if such a psychotic ramble can be dignified with such a term.

pinky


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OfflineRadioActiveSlug
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Registered: 03/14/03
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Re: PATRIOTIC BLUES [Re: Phred]
    #1442523 - 04/09/03 12:13 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

DOn't forget The US did NOT get involved until we where attacked at pearl harbor, we let the holocaust go right on and didn't bat an eyelash


--------------------
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned." -Buddha
www.impeach-bush-now.org


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Re: PATRIOTIC BLUES [Re: RadioActiveSlug]
    #1442529 - 04/09/03 12:16 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

we let the holocaust go right on and didn't bat an eyelash




kinda like what most countries are doing right now?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineRadioActiveSlug
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Re: PATRIOTIC BLUES [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1442567 - 04/09/03 12:30 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, exactly, but they're too scared to attack the US. that is what your tallking about right?

how we killed millions of iraqie's by bombing their water supply, before the UN imposed its sactions?


--------------------
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned." -Buddha
www.impeach-bush-now.org


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OfflinePhred
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Re: PATRIOTIC BLUES [Re: RadioActiveSlug]
    #1442618 - 04/09/03 12:44 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

RadioActiveSlug writes:

DOn't forget The US did NOT get involved until we where attacked at pearl harbor, we let the holocaust go right on and didn't bat an eyelash

So you're saying the US should have attacked Nazi Germany, (a country which posed no threat to the US and which had not declared war on the US) earlier in the game in order to prevent the Germans from killing Jews?

The author of that gibberish you linked disagrees with you:

"Freeing a people from tyranny is also an illegitimate justification; no American should be sacrificed for a nation on the other side of the planet on the simplistic grounds of utopian humanitarianism, it's not our business or responsibility."

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: PATRIOTIC BLUES [Re: Phred]
    #1442649 - 04/09/03 12:56 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Of course we shouldnt have attacked nazi germany BEFORE the war started. Theres a HUGE difference in liberating a people from their leader, and stopping someone from taking over an entire continent and trying to kill an entire race of people.


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Anonymous

Re: PATRIOTIC BLUES [Re: ]
    #1442653 - 04/09/03 12:58 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

When will they understand that a war to destroy evil is an impossibility, and if you engage in the same evil to fight a perceived evil, you only achieve the augmentation of evil itself.

By this logic, opposing Nazi Germany augmented evil itself.




Germany was NOT a perceived evil. It WAS evil, VERY cut and dry.

Iraq is NOT a threat to anyone like Nazi Germany was. To compare the two is ridiculous.


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Offlinemntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation
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Re: PATRIOTIC BLUES [Re: ]
    #1442667 - 04/09/03 01:02 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Nazi Germany is not a comparison anyway. They elected their leader there.

That crap about no moral justification unless it is national security sounds like the most selfish thing anyone could say. I guess there would be no moral justification to stop a rape either by that standard.

I guess Iraqis dragging Saddams statue head through the streets means nothing to you people.

Amazing.


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Be all and you'll be to end all


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Anonymous

Re: PATRIOTIC BLUES [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1442685 - 04/09/03 01:07 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, they're thrilled as fuck. Turn on ABC and you can see crowds of people running through the streets of iraqi cities, people honking horns and yelling all kinds of shit.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: PATRIOTIC BLUES [Re: ]
    #1442734 - 04/09/03 01:24 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)



--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleFloydian
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Registered: 05/14/00
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Re: PATRIOTIC BLUES [Re: Evolving]
    #1443577 - 04/09/03 05:28 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

This isnt the first time someones tried to use the nazi germany analogy for iraq. I believe you've missed the point. Nazi germany WAS A HUGE THREAT to the US. Imagine how much power they would have had if we just sit back and let them take europe over. We knew it wasnt gonna stop. No shit Japan attacked us, i dont need a history lesson. It doesnt mean Nazi germany wasnt a HUGE threat to the US.

Now look at Iraq....can barely defend itself, hasnt attacked anyone since that last war, and even if they did, they'd get bitch slapped like last time. Sure Saddam needed to be taken down, and no shit they're happy as fuck that hes gone. But it didnt need to come to war and there was ample time for other options to be executed. Which is far from the situation in WW2. We stepped in at the last possible moment and saved everyones ass.

Now we just have an itchy trigger finger and it'll come back to haunt us. We'll get more terrorist cause of all the civilians we've killed, half the world already resents us, and now even more do cause we said fuck you we're gonna do what we want no matter what you think.

The iraqis are happy now cause they're rid of Saddam. Big fucking deal! That was the easy part. Destruction is always easier than creation. Now comes the true test....the aftermath.....rebuilding. I wonder how the iraqis are gonna take to the puppet government we setup there. I wonder how many kids who lost their families in the bombings are gonna grow up to start/join groups like al-queada. I wonder how many more attacks on Americans will happen as a direct result of this war. I wonder how many of more of your civil rights will be laxed in the name of security when these attacks start happening. Everything LOOKS fine and dandy .... but only for the moment .... only for the moment.


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Don't squeeze the pancake batter


Edited by Floydian (04/09/03 05:38 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: PATRIOTIC BLUES [Re: Floydian]
    #1443738 - 04/09/03 06:19 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Floydian writes:

I believe you've missed the point.

No, you have missed the point. I was not saying that the US had no business invading Hitler's Europe, I was merely pointing out that by the same FAULTY logic employed by the author of that article, the US had no business invading Hitler's Europe. I really don't know how to make it any clearer than that.

Nazi germany WAS A HUGE THREAT to the US.

Actually, no it wasn't. Nazi Germany not only didn't attack the US, it couldn't attack the US. There was no way that 1940s technology could allow anyone to mount an attack across thousands of miles of Atlantic Ocean.

It doesnt mean Nazi germany wasnt a HUGE threat to the US.

How so? Give me some specifics, here. Or actually, don't bother if you don't feel like it, since it doesn't have any bearing on the position proclaimed by the author of that article, or my refutation of his position.

pinky


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InvisibleFloydian
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Re: PATRIOTIC BLUES [Re: Phred]
    #1443768 - 04/09/03 06:27 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Ok, germany having complete control of Europe wouldnt have posed any sort of threat towards the US at all, ever. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. If the point doesnt become blatantly obvious than I wont attempt to explain it.

Anyway you're right, i was disregarding your statements about the author, but i dont care. We're argueing about different two totally things now. I dont really care for your opinions on the author. I was talking about your attempt to compare Nazi germany to Iraq.

And if you cannot see how Nazi germany would have posed a huge threat towards the US by taking complete control of the entire continent of Europe then you are mistaken.



--------------------
Don't squeeze the pancake batter


Edited by Rono (04/09/03 06:59 PM)


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InvisibleFloydian
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Re: PATRIOTIC BLUES [Re: Floydian]
    #1443785 - 04/09/03 06:33 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

read some of the replys on tackleberry's post "carving up 10 antiwar arguements" if you still cant grasp it.


--------------------
Don't squeeze the pancake batter


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OfflinePhred
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Re: PATRIOTIC BLUES [Re: Floydian]
    #1443846 - 04/09/03 06:53 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Floydian writes:

I was talking about your attempt to compare Nazi germany to Iraq.

and

And if you still cant see the idiocy of trying to compare Iraq to nazi germany, you are mistaken.

Where in this thread have I attempted to compare Nazi Germany to Iraq? Read my posts again.

pinky


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Edited by Rono (04/09/03 07:00 PM)


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
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Re: PATRIOTIC BLUES [Re: Evolving]
    #1443864 - 04/09/03 07:01 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Come on, Evolving! i was just about to have supper here  :mad: 


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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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