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Kickle
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I have a question
#14415399 - 05/07/11 02:00 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Pre-warning: This is likely NOT posed using proper definitions
Are the forces we observe as products of material objects such as gravity or magnetism considered material themselves? Certainly they aren't considered incorporeal, are they? Are they seen as a property of matter?
Someone educate me
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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auxiliary
Mr.



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Re: I have a question [Re: Kickle]
#14415409 - 05/07/11 02:02 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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They're behaviors of material.
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auxiliary
Mr.



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Re: I have a question [Re: auxiliary]
#14415410 - 05/07/11 02:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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/relationships
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Kickle
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Re: I have a question [Re: auxiliary]
#14415424 - 05/07/11 02:08 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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So... the behaviors of material objects that influence other material objects? And is this influence itself material, or only the effect of the influence? I'm so confused by this 
Is gravity a word to describe something incorporeal occurring between material A and material B?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
Edited by Kickle (05/07/11 02:36 PM)
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Poid
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Re: I have a question [Re: Kickle]
#14415793 - 05/07/11 03:30 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Here's some relevant reading:
Subatomic particles
Quote:
In particle physics, the conceptual idea of a particle is one of several concepts inherited from classical physics. This describes the world we experience, used ( for example ) to describe how matter and energy behave at the molecular scales of quantum mechanics. For physicists, the word "particle" means something rather different from the common sense of the term, reflecting the modern understanding of how particles behave at the quantum scale in ways that differ radically from what everyday experience would lead us to expect. The idea of a particle underwent serious rethinking in light of experiments which showed that light could behave like a stream of particles (called photons) as well as exhibit wave-like properties. These results necessitated the new concept of wave-particle duality to reflect that quantum-scale "particles" are understood to behave in a way resembling both particles and waves. Another new concept, the uncertainty principle, concluded that analyzing particles at these scales would require a statistical approach. In more recent times, wave-particle duality has been shown to apply not only to photons, but to increasingly massive particles. All of these factors ultimately combined to replace the notion of discrete "particles" with the concept of "wave-packets" of uncertain boundaries, whose properties are only known as probabilities, and whose interactions with other "particles" remain largely a mystery, even 80 years after the establishment of quantum mechanics.
Wave packet
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The ideas of quantum mechanics continued to be developed throughout the 20th century. The picture that was developed was of a particulate world, with all phenomena and matter made of and interacting with discrete particles; however, these particles were described by a probability wave. The interactions, locations, and all of physics would be reduced to the calculations of these probability amplitude waves. The particle-like nature of the world was significantly confirmed by experiment, while the wave-like phenomena could be characterized as consequences of the wave packet nature of particles.
Quote:
Kickle said: Is gravity a word to describe something incorporeal occurring between material A and material B?
If you consider force, or energy to be incorporeal, then yes.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Kickle
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Re: I have a question [Re: Poid]
#14415822 - 05/07/11 03:37 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Ah, I did find something. A graviton is supposed to be the material aspect of gravity but it hasn't been found yet, is that right? So gravity is hypothesized to be material, yah?
Are there any alternative hypotheses out there?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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auxiliary
Mr.



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Re: I have a question [Re: Kickle]
#14415835 - 05/07/11 03:40 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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So a gravitation is a tangible object?
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Kickle
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Re: I have a question [Re: auxiliary]
#14415849 - 05/07/11 03:43 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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It's hypothesized to be a massless elementary particle which sounds a bit like chasing a ghost to me.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Poid
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Re: I have a question [Re: Kickle]
#14415863 - 05/07/11 03:46 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I think the prevailing theory is that gravitons exist--all of the other fundamental forces (besides gravitation) are associated with elementary particles, and this is one reason why many physicists are still searching for concrete evidence of their existence. I would say that, if gravitons exist, then gravitation is only partially material (much like how the electromagnetic force is partially material); it is, after all, one of the fundamental forces. Force is not a material phenomenon, but rather, is expressed through material bodies.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (05/07/11 03:56 PM)
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: I have a question [Re: Kickle]
#14415894 - 05/07/11 03:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Why gravity works is a mystery. We have a useful mathematical projection of how it works, but nothing more.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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Poid
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We are still working towards a quantum gravity theory, which will unite general relativity with quantum mechanics--it's possible that we can have a complete working theory of gravity in just a few decades!
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: I have a question [Re: Poid]
#14415926 - 05/07/11 03:56 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Science is
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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Kickle
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Re: I have a question [Re: Poid]
#14415937 - 05/07/11 03:59 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I can't wrap my head around how something material could possibly possess no mass tho, or how we would even begin to detect its presence
Also, if force is not really a physical phenomena, doesn't that open a realm of exploration that may not be suitable to a requirement of material evidence?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Poid
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I'm secretly hoping that science will, within my lifetime, advance to the point where it can cure the inevitable shortening of the telomeres in our DNA, which is known to be the cause of aging.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: I have a question [Re: Poid]
#14415975 - 05/07/11 04:05 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Seems there's a decent possibility of it actually happening. Problem: isolated. Solution: in the making.
I just hope that this therapy doesn't come to fruition before we've found lasting ways to cut back on overpopulation.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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auxiliary
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Once we get through this shitstorm, we (humans) will certainly find a way to cure the inevitable shortening, and transcend sexual urges. Then we'll be aliens flying around in space forever.
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Poid
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Re: I have a question [Re: Kickle]
#14416003 - 05/07/11 04:12 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: I can't wrap my head around how something material could possibly possess no mass tho, or how we would even begin to detect its presence 
Wikipedia says it's massless "because the gravitational force has unlimited range"--I'm not so sure why the fact that the gravitational force has unlimited range means that gravitons must be massless. We have inferred their presence, gravitons have not been detected directly; this is why they are currently considered to be theoretical particles.
Quote:
Kickle said: Also, if force is not really a physical phenomena, doesn't that open a realm of exploration that may not be suitable to a requirement of material evidence?
I said it's not a material phenomenon--force's existence can be observed by its effect on mass, it is an influence that causes a free body to undergo a change in speed, a change in direction, or a change in shape. But it itself is not the material that it effects.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (05/07/11 04:20 PM)
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Poid
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Re: I have a question [Re: auxiliary]
#14416030 - 05/07/11 04:17 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: Seems there's a decent possibility of it actually happening. Problem: isolated. Solution: in the making.
I just hope that this therapy doesn't come to fruition before we've found lasting ways to cut back on overpopulation. 
By then we'll have moon colonies for the homeless. 
Quote:
auxiliary said: Once we get through this shitstorm, we (humans) will certainly find a way to cure the inevitable shortening, and transcend sexual urges.
Of all urges, why transcend those kinds? Why transcend urges at all? I'd rather satisfy them because satisfaction kicks ass!
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Kickle
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Re: I have a question [Re: Poid]
#14416034 - 05/07/11 04:17 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Right. We can see the effect these forces have on material. But if we wanted to explore the force itself and not just its effect? I guess that's where I run into a blank. Because I don't know if there really is a force itself or if there is only a material cause/material effect, nothing really in between but a man-made description of a typology
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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auxiliary
Mr.



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Re: I have a question [Re: Poid]
#14416056 - 05/07/11 04:21 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
auxiliary said: Once we get through this shitstorm, we (humans) will certainly find a way to cure the inevitable shortening, and transcend sexual urges.
Of all urges, why transcend those kinds? Why transcend urges at all? I'd rather satisfy them because satisfaction kicks ass! 
Hard to argue against that.
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