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OfflineSeussA
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UN vs US on Osama
    #14412409 - 05/06/11 08:45 PM (13 years, 15 days ago)

From al Reuters:

Quote:

U.N. human rights investigators called on the United States on Friday to disclose whether there had been any plan to capture Osama bin Laden and if he was offered any "meaningful prospect of surrender and arrest."




Oh, the irony... a Nobel Peace Prize winner under investigation by the UN for violating the human rights of a mass murderer that had admitted to killing thousands of civilians in acts of terrorism.

Quote:

Principles of engagement in such operations require the possibility of surrender, firing warning shots and if necessary wounding a suspect, rather than killing him, they said.




Bullshit.  Warning shots?  Shooting to wound?  What are these idiots smoking?  If you shoot, you shoot to kill.  No warning shots.  No wounding.  This is war, not play doh time.  Bin Laden had ten years to surrender, yet he chose to continue terrorizing others instead.

Quote:

"We've raised a question mark about what happened precisely, more details are needed at this point," her spokesman Rupert Colville told a briefing in Geneva on Friday.




Rather than obsessing over the death of a mass murderer by a country that had every right in the world to string him up, why don't they focus on Syria, or Darfur, or some of the other hellholes where innocent civilians are being murdered by their governments every day.  I'm not sure which is the bigger joke... the UN or the the Nobel Peace Prize.

If anybody wants the full article, it can be found here.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: UN vs US on Osama [Re: Seuss]
    #14413847 - 05/07/11 05:01 AM (13 years, 15 days ago)

They should have captured him and given him a severe spanking.

That would have shown every other terrorist world-wide just what fate awaits them should they continue with their nefarious ways!


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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InvisibleStein
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Re: UN vs US on Osama [Re: Seuss]
    #14413888 - 05/07/11 05:28 AM (13 years, 15 days ago)

I don't know what the UN's problem is they did wound him first. Unfortunately it was right in the eye and he didn't live through it. Can't say we didn't try.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: UN vs US on Osama [Re: Stein]
    #14414148 - 05/07/11 07:49 AM (13 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

Stein said:
I don't know what the UN's problem is they did wound him first. Unfortunately it was right in the eye




that was a warning shot

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InvisibleNot Quite Social
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Re: UN vs US on Osama [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14414368 - 05/07/11 09:23 AM (13 years, 15 days ago)

The UN knows full well that Bin Laden was a prisoner and sitting duck.  Instead of that they want to raise some piddly crap and whine about the way in which OBL was assassinated?  Maybe they're afraid of Navy Seals shooting up The Hague.  Booyah!


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Edited by Not Quite Social (05/07/11 09:27 AM)

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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: UN vs US on Osama [Re: Seuss]
    #14414488 - 05/07/11 10:08 AM (13 years, 15 days ago)

Bah! Fuck the UN, I say. It's about time they nailed that lunatic.

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OfflineMycjunky
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Re: UN vs US on Osama [Re: Seuss]
    #14415041 - 05/07/11 12:31 PM (13 years, 15 days ago)

Ok a couple points here and guessing on the general opinion most people have I guarantee I'm going to be flamed but I have to ask them anyways.

Al Quaeda and OBLs goal was known to be "To drive Americans and American influence out of all Muslim nations". I think we can all agree we have had a huge influence in the middle east for a long time.  An easy example is our relationship with Saudi Arabia. U.S. companies have held stake in Saudi Arabia's oil to my understanding of 50% with the California-Arabian Standard Oil Company. I see no reason that Saudi Arabia would willingly give us 50% of there oil production for no reason. There are many other examples of our imperialistic influence in the middle east as well.

I want to stress killing civilians is always wrong and unjustifiable. However I don't see how they can seriously compare him to Hitler if he was literally defending his country from an imperialistic nation. Also the notion he's so bad because he killed civilians seems hypocritical as well considering we dropped 2 atomic bombs on hundreds of thousands of civilians in Japan.

It's also a fact OBL was involved in driving the Soviet Union out of the middle east during the Cold War. Obviously following the same goal as Al Quaeda's current goal trying to push Russia from taking over by force. A quote from OBL "We had patience in our fighting with the Soviet Union with simple weapons for 10 years. We exhausted their economy, so they disappeared. We will not abandon our fight until the weapons run out". That being stated considering the U.S. had spent $1.28 trillion chasing Osama since 9/11 wouldn't it appear he is using the exact same goal of exhausting the U.S. economy as was used against the Soviets?

So argue with me I guess is what I'm asking. I don't deny we should have gone after OBL after 9/11 there was hardly a single American who didn't want us to. But comparing him to Hitler I think is really sensationalizing the event, and it would appear to me if we weren't pushing for control of other countries we wouldn't have become a target. I'm sick of FOX news saying these radical Islamist's only goal is to "Kill all americans" seems pretty naive.

Please asking for intelligent debate no flaming. I want to understand the situation better it's possible I don't.

Edited by Mycjunky (05/07/11 12:33 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: UN vs US on Osama [Re: Mycjunky] * 2
    #14415377 - 05/07/11 01:56 PM (13 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

Mycjunky said:
Ok a couple points here and guessing on the general opinion most people have I guarantee I'm going to be flamed but I have to ask them anyways.

Al Quaeda and OBLs goal was known to be "To drive Americans and American influence out of all Muslim nations". I think we can all agree we have had a huge influence in the middle east for a long time.  An easy example is our relationship with Saudi Arabia. U.S. companies have held stake in Saudi Arabia's oil to my understanding of 50% with the California-Arabian Standard Oil Company. I see no reason that Saudi Arabia would willingly give us 50% of there oil production for no reason. There are many other examples of our imperialistic influence in the middle east as well.




Having a shared business interest does not an imperialist make.  If that were so almost every nation would be imperial conquerors of almost every other.  Stupid conclusion.  And they haven't given us anything.
Quote:



I want to stress killing civilians is always wrong and unjustifiable. However I don't see how they can seriously compare him to Hitler if he was literally defending his country from an imperialistic nation. Also the notion he's so bad because he killed civilians seems hypocritical as well considering we dropped 2 atomic bombs on hundreds of thousands of civilians in Japan.




More stupid.  We were at total war with Japan.  Tough shit for them.  They shouldn't have attacked us.  That's number one. Number two is that we were in Saudi Arabia at the behest of the duly recognized Saudi government as a response to Saddam Husseins adventurism.  Whether an already reviled jackass likes it or not is utterly irrelevant.  He was a just a rich punk with no authority too decide what is or is not good for SA.
Quote:



It's also a fact OBL was involved in driving the Soviet Union out of the middle east during the Cold War. Obviously following the same goal as Al Quaeda's current goal trying to push Russia from taking over by force. A quote from OBL "We had patience in our fighting with the Soviet Union with simple weapons for 10 years. We exhausted their economy, so they disappeared. We will not abandon our fight until the weapons run out". That being stated considering the U.S. had spent $1.28 trillion chasing Osama since 9/11 wouldn't it appear he is using the exact same goal of exhausting the U.S. economy as was used against the Soviets?




More bullshit.  OBL was, if anything, a tiny part of the war against the Soviets.  Essentially of no consequence whatsoever.  I'm sure he thought he was a big deal because his daddy abandoned him but that does not make it so.  And no, we didn't spend over a trillion dollars hunting for OBL.
Quote:



So argue with me I guess is what I'm asking. I don't deny we should have gone after OBL after 9/11 there was hardly a single American who didn't want us to. But comparing him to Hitler I think is really sensationalizing the event, and it would appear to me if we weren't pushing for control of other countries we wouldn't have become a target. I'm sick of FOX news saying these radical Islamist's only goal is to "Kill all americans" seems pretty naive.




Comparing him to Hitler is stupid.  Hitler was orders of magnitude more effective.  He was also the recognized leader of his nation.  OBL wasn't dick compared to Hitler.  Or Stalin or Mao or Any of the Crazy Kims or Pol Pot.

I haven't heard Fox News say that the only thing radical Islamists want is to kill Americans.  But that's because I don't watch Fox News.  I have, however, heard plenty of radical Islamists say that they want a worldwide caliphate, including America, by force if necessary.  That involves forced coercion to allah, piss be upon him, or subjugation of infidels into a dhimmi class or death.  See, they still give us choices.
Quote:



Please asking for intelligent debate no flaming. I want to understand the situation better it's possible I don't.




I do not consider this a debate.  It is a lecture.  Stop skipping class so I don't have to go over the same material several times.  Your welcome.


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InvisibleNot Quite Social
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Re: UN vs US on Osama [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14417114 - 05/07/11 10:51 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Zappa, when patronizing others may I recommend doing as I do and use a little care with the language.  Your authority, teacher, is undermined by "your welcome".


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: UN vs US on Osama [Re: Mycjunky]
    #14419093 - 05/08/11 11:20 AM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Mycjunky said:
Ok a couple points here and guessing on the general opinion most people have I guarantee I'm going to be flamed but I have to ask them anyways.

Al Quaeda and OBLs goal was known to be "To drive Americans and American influence out of all Muslim nations". I think we can all agree we




We?  I haven't- have you?

What is this "influence" you seem to agree 'we' have and to the extent you find such 'bad' or something OBL may justifiably seek to reduce, what is wrong with this influence?  You seem to suggest later that

Quote:

An easy example is our relationship with Saudi Arabia. U.S. companies have held stake in Saudi Arabia's oil to my understanding of 50% with the California-Arabian Standard Oil Company. I see no reason that Saudi Arabia would willingly give us 50% of there oil production for no reason. There are many other examples of our imperialistic influence in the middle east as well.





Imperialistic?  Are you kidding? 

How do you justify that?  This seems to be common slur used by people of a certain politial persuasion, but I can never figure out what they define the term to be.

How is a company incoporated in the US with a US place of buisness jointly owning assets which include foreign property an example of US influence on them?  I see no justification for your conflation of the state and its people, and even less for your consideration of someone buying part of a foreign company as "imperialist".



Quote:

I want to stress killing civilians is always wrong and unjustifiable. However I don't see how they can seriously compare him to Hitler if he was literally defending his country from an imperialistic nation. Also the notion he's so bad because he killed civilians seems hypocritical as well considering we dropped 2 atomic bombs on hundreds of thousands of civilians in Japan.




Again with the "we": who exactly is this 'we'?

You seem to attack a fabricated position.  Nobody is holding OBL to be "so bad" because he killed civilians, and the position is silly even if you can find some screwball hippy who would.  Your comparison is ridiculous.

  OBL is bad because he targets civilians and non-military targets for death and destruction and fights amongst the civilian population without uniforms or marks allowing the combatants to be distinguished- endangering the surrounding population and using them as shields.  He also seems to lack any justification for his war even if we ignore the criminal means in which he carries them out.  He doesn't seek to minimize non-military targets nor ensure the military target is of proportionate value to the civilian harm.  He doesn't give notice to civilians to reduce casualties, et cet.

I don't understand why people point to the atomic bombing as an example of questionable allied/US conduct whenever a point like this is sought to be made.  Given the other actions which seem clearly more questionable, I can only assume the refrences to the atomic bombing are a result of emotional, rather than logical, qualities associated with the bombing.  Either that or the people making the argument don't know of the better choices or the reasons, and just grasp at an available example, regardless of its suitability

Quote:

it would appear to me if we weren't pushing for control of other countries we wouldn't have become a target. I'm sick of FOX news saying these radical Islamist's only goal is to "Kill all americans" seems pretty naive.




How do you conclude this?  What grounds do you have to say if 'we' weren't pushing for control of other countries 'we' wouldn't have 'become a target'?  What is wrong with the 'FOX news' statement (besides the claims this is their exclusive goal- if that is your issue then please establish that is a fair representation of what fox news says).



Please asking for intelligent debate no flaming. I want to understand the situation better it's possible I don't.



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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: UN vs US on Osama [Re: johnm214]
    #14424822 - 05/09/11 02:03 PM (13 years, 13 days ago)

Why haven't we sent in our elites to take out Ahmadinejad or Kim Jong-il?

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: UN vs US on Osama [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #14425203 - 05/09/11 03:28 PM (13 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Why haven't we sent in our elites to take out Ahmadinejad or Kim Jong-il?




Was ObL the leader of a country?  As far as Kim you might want to concern yourself with a rather large nation that shares a border with N. Korea.  They are as much responsible for the repression of the Nork people as Kim.  Look at a satellite photo of Korea sometime.  Taking out Ahmadinejad will accomplish nothing.  He is a figurehead.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: UN vs US on Osama [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14427009 - 05/09/11 09:24 PM (13 years, 12 days ago)

Why just kill him if he's the baddest ass of all ? Or why not torture Osama for all his living eternity ?

Imagine him hanging by his skin far above, at the top of the empire state building, bare naked. How many hours or days would he last ? Sniped by hundreds of New-Yorkers and eaten by seagulls. Epic !

p.s.: I'm trying to put myself in your shoes btw ... no sarcasm intended. Just a mind experiment and thought processing.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: UN vs US on Osama [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #14427026 - 05/09/11 09:26 PM (13 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Why haven't we sent in our elites to take out Ahmadinejad or Kim Jong-il?




You don't send the elites. The elites send you ...


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: UN vs US on Osama [Re: johnm214]
    #14427154 - 05/09/11 09:53 PM (13 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

OBL is bad because he targets civilians and non-military targets for death and destruction and fights amongst the civilian population without uniforms or marks allowing the combatants to be distinguished- endangering the surrounding population and using them as shields.  He also seems to lack any justification for his war even if we ignore the criminal means in which he carries them out.  He doesn't seek to minimize non-military targets nor ensure the military target is of proportionate value to the civilian harm.  He doesn't give notice to civilians to reduce casualties, et cet.




He's "bad" ? What's "bad" ? It seems rules may vary in war engagement depending on the conditions you're fighting. What rules are this ? Your rules ?

I mean. Did the vietcongs break your conventional war rules in Nam when they choose a guerrilla type of confrontation and kicked your asses ?

Is this a better allusion than the one about nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki or nothing applies as criticism to the way you do war ?


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Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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OfflineMAIA
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Re: UN vs US on Osama [Re: johnm214]
    #14427312 - 05/09/11 10:17 PM (13 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Imperialistic?  Are you kidding? 

How do you justify that?  This seems to be common slur used by people of a certain politial persuasion, but I can never figure out what they define the term to be.




State exploitation over another state based in domination and subordination.

Step 1 - Political, religious or economic excuse (any) to invade/control and conquer.
Step 2 - Economic and political domination and subordination of the conquered state and its people.
Step 3 - Exploitation of natural resources.

Roman, Muslim, Christian, CCCP and US empires are built upon this rules. Nothing new here. It's an historical fact. No need to argue.

The argument that follows in your assertion is just an "excuse". It's inserted as valid by your culture and seen as natural. That's why you can't see damn thing beyond what's your social and cultural frame of reality.

Either that or millions and millions are delusional mofos that can't understand the "we" (you I mean). Is rampant mass paranoia an explanation that fits ? Guess it doesn't ...


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Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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InvisiblePoid
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Re: UN vs US on Osama [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14427973 - 05/10/11 01:57 AM (13 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Please asking for intelligent debate no flaming. I want to understand the situation better it's possible I don't.



I do not consider this a debate.  It is a lecture.  Stop skipping class so I don't have to go over the same material several times.  Your welcome.


:andyistic:


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It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: UN vs US on Osama [Re: MAIA]
    #14428309 - 05/10/11 05:13 AM (13 years, 12 days ago)

> Roman, Muslim, Christian, CCCP and US empires are built upon this rules. Nothing new here. It's an historical fact. No need to argue.

I assume the above is a typo and that you meant UK empire?  If not, then perhaps our definition of empire is different.  I suppose one could argue that the US federal government is an empire of the individual states, using the US civil war as proof in point, but beyond that, I fail to see how the US is an empire, subjugating other countries to US rule.


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: UN vs US on Osama [Re: Seuss]
    #14428475 - 05/10/11 06:39 AM (13 years, 12 days ago)

He should have been arrested.  Then, when found guilty, issued a pigskin prison uniform with a quick relase ass-flap, given a jar of vaseline, and rotated through the general pop's of the US's most nasty prisons every thirty days.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: UN vs US on Osama [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14428789 - 05/10/11 08:34 AM (13 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Please asking for intelligent debate no flaming. I want to understand the situation better it's possible I don't.



I do not consider this a debate.  It is a lecture.  Stop skipping class so I don't have to go over the same material several times.  Your welcome.


:andyistic:



Yes yes yes somebody already pointed that out.  Stop being a Poid.


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