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InvisibleDeadHearts


Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 21,827
Loc: MICHIGAN
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: Sophistic Radiance] * 1
    #14405978 - 05/05/11 04:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Again, I'm speaking in purely practical terms here, not moral ones.

If we were acting morally as a nation, we wouldn't even have to deal with wayward allies-turned-terrorists, but since we already are, we have to think practically. And putting Osama on trial would have been far less practical than putting Saddam on trial.





So what if we are talking about the Gulf oil spill here. Is it practical that
BP because of their wealth and power/influence did not get put on trail at all.

But if one of us got caught dumping oil drums into the ocean we would surly see
prison time??

Thats kinda of what you are saying. Because Saddam was a ruler of a country.
Compared to a lowly terrorist.

Edited by DeadHearts (05/05/11 04:11 PM)

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
Free sVs!
Female

Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
Loc: Center of the Universe
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: gzuf]
    #14405982 - 05/05/11 04:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Maybe if the UN wasnt dealing with a movement that consists of radical extremists that praise the death of there leaders at the hands of there enemy as the most noble death possible.




I think this is why we decided to dump his body in the ocean rather than follow Islamic burial guidelines. It says to the extremists, "your religion is useless against our highly-trained commandos, even beyond the grave." For such a fundamentally (and fundamentalist) religious movement, nothing could be more demoralizing.

Quote:

gzuf said:
Quote:

DeadHearts said:
A petty criminal that killed many many more people than Osama.
He did some really fucked up shit over there.




The key two words.




This.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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InvisibleDeadHearts


Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 21,827
Loc: MICHIGAN
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: gzuf] * 1
    #14405984 - 05/05/11 04:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

gzuf said:
Quote:

DeadHearts said:
A petty criminal that killed many many more people than Osama.
He did some really fucked up shit over there.




The key two words.




Whats youre point??

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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
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Other


Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan Flag
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: Sophistic Radiance] * 1
    #14406005 - 05/05/11 04:06 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Maybe if the UN wasnt dealing with a movement that consists of radical extremists that praise the death of there leaders at the hands of there enemy as the most noble death possible.




I think this is why we decided to dump his body in the ocean rather than follow Islamic burial guidelines. It says to the extremists, "your religion is useless against our highly-trained commandos." For such a fundamentally (and fundamentalist) religious movement, nothing could be more demoralizing.





It says to the extremists, we killed your holy leader we have no respect for your religion and will shit all over it if we feel like it. Hardly demoralizing. At least from my perspective killing there leaders only strengthens there vehement hate for america. Pissing off a extremist group with seemingly close ties to a military that possesses nuclear armnants is not that great of a move.

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Female

Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
Loc: Center of the Universe
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #14406013 - 05/05/11 04:07 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I'm trying not to think about the Pakistani nukes. :tinfoil:


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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InvisibleDeadHearts


Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 21,827
Loc: MICHIGAN
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: DeadHearts]
    #14406033 - 05/05/11 04:11 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DeadHearts said:
Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Again, I'm speaking in purely practical terms here, not moral ones.

If we were acting morally as a nation, we wouldn't even have to deal with wayward allies-turned-terrorists, but since we already are, we have to think practically. And putting Osama on trial would have been far less practical than putting Saddam on trial.





So what if we are talking about the Gulf oil spill here. Is it practical that
BP because of their wealth and power/influence did not get put on trail at all.

But if one of us got caught dumping oil drums into the ocean we would surly see
prison time??

Thats kinda of what you are saying. Because Saddam was a ruler of a country.
Compared to a lowly terrorist.



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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
Free sVs!
Female

Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
Loc: Center of the Universe
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: DeadHearts]
    #14406045 - 05/05/11 04:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not defending BP, I'm not defending the government's response to BP, and there is nothing similar between the situation of the oil spill and the situation of mideast dictators and religious fanatics.

Go and play with your straw man elsewhere.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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InvisibleDeadHearts


Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 21,827
Loc: MICHIGAN
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14406062 - 05/05/11 04:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
I'm not defending BP, I'm not defending the government's response to BP, and there is nothing similar between the situation of the oil spill and the situation of mideast dictators and religious fanatics.

Go and play with your straw man elsewhere.





You know exactly what Im saying tho.

You are saying its more practical that Saddam got a trial because he was the
ruler of a country and he was wealthy and powerful.

But Osama is a lowly terrorist so fuck him.

Thats not very practical at all.

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Invisiblegzuf
٩(̾๏̮̮̃̾๏̃̾)۶
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Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/09
Posts: 6,535
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: DeadHearts]
    #14406069 - 05/05/11 04:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DeadHearts said:
Quote:

gzuf said:
Quote:

DeadHearts said:
A petty criminal that killed many many more people than Osama.
He did some really fucked up shit over there.




The key two words.




Whats youre point??




Saddam killing Iraqis on Iraqi soil is not the same as Al-Qaeda killing 3,000 good Americans on American soil, destroying two of the most iconic buildings in world history. Morally, this is wrong because you'd say Saddam killed so many more - but world history teaches us that the extent you can kill your own people vs. attacking another country are widely different, especially in today's world.

No, Al-Qaeda gradually worked their way up the shit list by attacking foreign-based US embassies and boats, etc etc over the years. The US did nothing, nothing, nothing and then they killed 3,000 Americans and injured some 6,000 others doing nothing but going to work for a better life through a frankly simplistically-brilliant plan. You know they actually expected the towers to get knocked over? They didn't think the fire would weaken it to a point of collapse. It just worked out that way.


--------------------
+1 Post ٩(̾๏̮̮̃̾๏̃̾)۶


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Female

Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
Loc: Center of the Universe
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: DeadHearts]
    #14406081 - 05/05/11 04:18 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I actually have no idea what you're saying, because as I said before, there is nothing similar between the situation of the BP oil spill and the situation of mideast dictators and religious fanatics.

I think that you have failed to grasp my central point about how you handle a political dictator vs. a religious fanatic. Once the political dictator is cut off from the institutions that gave him power (as Saddam was), he has nothing left, and it becomes safe to swoop him up, put him in prison, and make him go on trial. But Osama cannot be cut off from the institutions that give him power, because they are spiritual and immaterial, and transcend state boundaries. This is why I keep harping on the practicality of this decision over its moral implications.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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InvisibleDeadHearts


Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 21,827
Loc: MICHIGAN
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: gzuf]
    #14406093 - 05/05/11 04:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

gzuf said:
Quote:

DeadHearts said:
Quote:

gzuf said:
Quote:

DeadHearts said:
A petty criminal that killed many many more people than Osama.
He did some really fucked up shit over there.




The key two words.




Whats youre point??




Saddam killing Iraqis on Iraqi soil is not the same as Al-Qaeda killing 3,000 good Americans.




It didnt change the fact that we went in there anyways and bomed the fuck out of them
while capturing Saddam who was tried and hanged. We still occupy Iraq to this day
which has resulted in thousands and thousands of civilian deaths as well as deaths
of americans.

Whats ur point?

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
Free sVs!
Female

Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
Loc: Center of the Universe
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: DeadHearts]
    #14406102 - 05/05/11 04:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You keep trying to argue from a moral perspective, when this is a moot point, because the entire affair of us having to deal with people like Saddam and Osama has been engendered by our own lack of morals in the past. In for a penny, in for a pound.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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InvisibleDeadHearts


Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 21,827
Loc: MICHIGAN
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14406125 - 05/05/11 04:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
You keep trying to argue from a moral perspective, when this is a moot point, because the entire affair of us having to deal with people like Saddam and Osama has been engendered by our own lack of morals in the past. In for a penny, in for a pound.





Its a moot point to YOU. You are not the end all be all of any argument or american
policy. Nor am I. But I think moral dilemmas are of extreme importance and should not
just be thrown out the fuckin window.

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Female

Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
Loc: Center of the Universe
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: DeadHearts]
    #14406133 - 05/05/11 04:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It's actually not a moot point to me at all, I just no longer suffer under the delusion that our government can be expected to behave morally.

I don't LIKE this state of affairs, I just recognize it for what it is. :shrug:


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Invisiblegzuf
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Registered: 07/13/09
Posts: 6,535
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: DeadHearts]
    #14406149 - 05/05/11 04:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DeadHearts said:
It didnt change the fact that we went in there anyways and bomed the fuck out of them
while capturing Saddam who was tried and hanged. We still occupy Iraq to this day
which has resulted in thousands and thousands of civilian deaths as well as deaths
of americans.

Whats ur point?




Al-Qaeda and 9/11 was the catalyst that led to the USA waking up and taking terrorism seriously. Doing nothing doesn't work, it just festers and grows. Now, a debate about the fine specifics of what something is - as in whether or not you believe Iraq should have been invaded is a debate for another thread. I tend to believe it was the US deciding to clean up what they didn't in Gulf War I. But religious fanatics in the Middle East were always a problem - since they killed a bunch of Israeli's at the Olympics. It grows, and grows, and grows. They bomb this embassy, they bomb this ship, they bomb these people until they finally attack the USA.

I'm rambling, though. This isn't a question of morality it's a question of power. You do not attack the USA and not expect to get your shit fucked up.


--------------------
+1 Post ٩(̾๏̮̮̃̾๏̃̾)۶


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InvisibleDeadHearts


Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 21,827
Loc: MICHIGAN
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14406152 - 05/05/11 04:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
It's actually not a moot point to me at all, I just no longer suffer under the delusion that our government can be expected to behave morally.

I don't LIKE this state of affairs, I just recognize it for what it is. :shrug:





You are contradicting the hell out of youre self. You argue for one side and then
say you are for another.

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InvisibleDeadHearts


Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 21,827
Loc: MICHIGAN
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: gzuf]
    #14406160 - 05/05/11 04:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

gzuf said:
Quote:

DeadHearts said:
It didnt change the fact that we went in there anyways and bomed the fuck out of them
while capturing Saddam who was tried and hanged. We still occupy Iraq to this day
which has resulted in thousands and thousands of civilian deaths as well as deaths
of americans.

Whats ur point?






I'm rambling, though. This isn't a question of morality it's a question of power. You do not attack the USA and not expect to get your shit fucked up.




No shit. But you said over there being key words.

Saddam and Iraq did not attack us. Thats all Im saying. Yet we went in there and
did our thang.

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
Loc: Center of the Universe
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: DeadHearts]
    #14406179 - 05/05/11 04:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Let me make this perfectly clear:

I have morals. I disagree with the invasion of Iraq, hell, I disagree with the invasion of Afghanistan. I think we could have responded to 9/11 much more reasonably, spending much less and killing far fewer people in the process.

The U.S. government does not have morals. It does not care about what is "right" or "wrong," it defends its vested interests to the best of its ability (which itself often appears to be quite limited). The best I can hope is that it carries out this task in a manner that is efficient and as bloodless as possible. In my judgment, the assassination of Osama is a rare example of it meeting those expectations successfully.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*
Other


Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan Flag
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14406186 - 05/05/11 04:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Even though I hate america I kind of have to agree with its course of action in this situation, although just not killing him would have been a even better move.

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InvisibleDeadHearts


Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 21,827
Loc: MICHIGAN
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14406193 - 05/05/11 04:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Let me make this perfectly clear:

I have morals. I disagree with the invasion of Iraq, hell, I disagree with the invasion of Afghanistan. I think we could have responded to 9/11 much more reasonably, spending much less and killing far fewer people in the process.

The U.S. government does not have morals. It does not care about what is "right" or "wrong," it defends its vested interests to the best of its ability (which itself often appears to be quite limited). The best I can hope is that it carries out this task in a manner that is efficient and as bloodless as possible. In my judgment, the assassination of Osama is a rare example of it meeting those expectations successfully.




I agree except for you feeling that we are successful in killing one man. Who will
have no true effect on this war on terror in which will continue. It took 10 years
to even find him and how many dead??

People in this country should have bowed their head quietly, nodded and moved on.

This whole war has been a complete failure. Just like the war we are waging here
at home.

Edited by DeadHearts (05/05/11 04:40 PM)

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