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Offlinezoomfan
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on effort
    #14385817 - 05/01/11 10:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

effort seems to be something which is an obstacle to doing/obtaining what we want. eating healthy, exercising, getting out of bed in the morning , beating addictions, studying etc, but what actually is it? i would like to suggest that it is just a self induced physical and mental tension created by the idea that resistance to a certain outcome requires physical and mental tension. i am of the opinion that the desire/motivation to achieve a certain outcome is what determines whether or not the obstacles(fears, other feelings etc) are overcome.
not only do i suggest the tension is self imposed and not needed, i also think the tension, stress and exhaustion actually inhibits the desired outcome. do you agree or disagree and why?


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OfflineGreenvalley
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Re: on effort [Re: zoomfan]
    #14385920 - 05/01/11 10:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It's all an effortless effort when done right


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Offlinezoomfan
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Re: on effort [Re: Greenvalley]
    #14386003 - 05/01/11 11:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

im inclined to agree


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: on effort [Re: zoomfan]
    #14386069 - 05/01/11 11:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

yeah, if you only had a desire for one thing and one thing only, it would be impossible for that desire not to come to fruition.  But subjectively, there needs to be effort.  Ultimately, when the desire is realized, it will feel effortless.


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Offlinezoomfan
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Re: on effort [Re: g00ru]
    #14387702 - 05/02/11 10:12 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

that seems kind of impossible to me to only have desire for one thing? there are so many amazing things in this world to have or be a part of. im not quite sure what you mean.

what i was tryin to say was effort doesnt need to be a struggle physically or mentally, just try to do something that usually takes effort and notice that you can do it without effort! without even trying, its all about the intention, the only thing that keeps you from being able to do something that "takes too much effort" is the idea that it takes too much effort. everything happens effortlessly once you realize this. trust me.

saying i can't or its too hard etc, they're all self fulfilling prophecies. just notice the subtle things you say to yourself which create the feeling of effort, im sure your familiar with noticing your thoughts and i dont mean to patronize you but there are always more subtle thoughts you arent aware of!


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: on effort [Re: zoomfan]
    #14388103 - 05/02/11 11:37 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

yeah, i totally agree with you. a positive mindset is EVERYTHING if you want success in any given field.  The one desire thing was just an example, i have many desires also.  I have this friend who's always telling himself "don't bitch out!." and that's just negative reinforcement that doesn't work nearly as well.  That's why being able to silence the mind is so important.


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Offlinezoomfan
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Re: on effort [Re: g00ru]
    #14389815 - 05/02/11 04:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i agree


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: on effort [Re: g00ru]
    #14389837 - 05/02/11 04:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

a positive mindset is EVERYTHING if you want success in any given field




How would you say the survival rate among medically similar cancer patients receiving similar treatment compares among those with positive attitudes and those with negative attitudes?


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: on effort [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14391124 - 05/02/11 08:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

well they already have fucking cancer so idk, certainly couldn't make any blanket statements


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: on effort [Re: zoomfan]
    #14392525 - 05/03/11 12:58 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zoomfan said:
effort seems to be something which is an obstacle to doing/obtaining what we want. eating healthy, exercising, getting out of bed in the morning , beating addictions, studying etc, but what actually is it? i would like to suggest that it is just a self induced physical and mental tension created by the idea that resistance to a certain outcome requires physical and mental tension. i am of the opinion that the desire/motivation to achieve a certain outcome is what determines whether or not the obstacles(fears, other feelings etc) are overcome.
not only do i suggest the tension is self imposed and not needed, i also think the tension, stress and exhaustion actually inhibits the desired outcome. do you agree or disagree and why?





so youre saying, with the right mindset, you can lift an infinite set of 50kg weights, without effort?

this seems ridiculous, but perhaps you have something to say about it?

maybe you think that you can lift as  much as your muscles will allow without effort, but then no amount of effort will let you go any further?

What about the difference between pushing an 80kg tire over verses a 5kg tire? Do you think the difference in effort needed is merely a matter of your mindset?


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: on effort [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14392866 - 05/03/11 04:19 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

zoomfan is very wise to try to act without effort
treading lightly like jesus over water

It is very good, I try to do the same
it is not easy ironically - it really should be

it is a very relaxed state of mind of which allowing is a great part

it does not move tires as far as I know - bodily and mental disturbance sets in

this relates to the self of consciousness (active brain signals) that is all we ever experience

when you scroll down on your computer part of you are on a ride scrolling along
on entheogenic prolongation of brain signals (expanse of consciousness) this part and kind of consciousness/experience
which you could say is immersing yourself in what you experience, going all into it,
increases in intensity and you can notice it
it is like the truth of experiencer = experience translates into feeling and intuition as one whole intertwined with whatever you immerse yourself in

in any case being more gentle => more attention paid, I think,
and I know that it leads to less tension which leads to better overall mentality


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InvisibleDisoRDeR
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Re: on effort [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14393914 - 05/03/11 11:17 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Quote:

zoomfan said:
effort seems to be something which is an obstacle to doing/obtaining what we want. eating healthy, exercising, getting out of bed in the morning , beating addictions, studying etc, but what actually is it? i would like to suggest that it is just a self induced physical and mental tension created by the idea that resistance to a certain outcome requires physical and mental tension. i am of the opinion that the desire/motivation to achieve a certain outcome is what determines whether or not the obstacles(fears, other feelings etc) are overcome.
not only do i suggest the tension is self imposed and not needed, i also think the tension, stress and exhaustion actually inhibits the desired outcome. do you agree or disagree and why?





so youre saying, with the right mindset, you can lift an infinite set of 50kg weights, without effort?

this seems ridiculous, but perhaps you have something to say about it?

maybe you think that you can lift as  much as your muscles will allow without effort, but then no amount of effort will let you go any further?

What about the difference between pushing an 80kg tire over verses a 5kg tire? Do you think the difference in effort needed is merely a matter of your mindset?






It may be useful to distinguish between mental and physical obstacles (and perhaps mental and physical effort).  We are physical creatures and physical obstacles exist, i.e. as much as your muscles will allow.

Assuming the mind is an extension of the physical, mental obstacles are also dependant on physical states, but let's look at them seperately for a moment...

We build mental models of reality.  In most cases, these do not accord entirely with reality.

"That mountain is sooo high!  I can't possibly climb it." 

This statement may be true, and is an extrapolation and prediction based on one's model of reality.

I'll present five instantaneous states of mind regarding a task, assuming one's model incorporates a fundamental division between self and other, potentially applied across any number of measures...


One underestimates oneself, and underestimates the obstacle.

One underestimates oneself, and inflates the obstacle.

One inflates oneself and underestimates the obstacle.

One inflates oneself and inflates the obstacle.

One posesses an accurate model of reality.


In all cases, operating within a range of acceptable error bounded by a cascade to physical failure of a task, things can be accomplished.  The amount of mental effort necessary is (perhaps) directly proportional to the divergence of one's model from physical reality.

Hmm... there is a temporal factor here which is lacking...  our perception of the passage of time, awareness of our own mortality, and tendency to expect pleasure and suffering based on past experience...  I'm flummoxed.

I've sidelined the idea of physical exertion translating directly to mental effort here.  In my experience, it is possible to train oneself out of the habit of identifying physical exertion as effort.  I do not claim to have done this to a great extent or with permanence, I'm just extrapolating on a trend.

...

Hmm, I have problems with what I've written, but I'll leave it for discussion's sake.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: on effort [Re: DisoRDeR]
    #14399459 - 05/04/11 11:21 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I think you could say that 'mental' effort is needed when a subject's model diverges from reality and requires conscious processes. Similarly, 'physical' effort is needed when a subject's strived body position diverges from the true body position and requires energy from muscles.
Your point could be that since The brain does not seem to get tired like muscles do (but still do get tired), mental effort is much less limited compared to physical effort, and perhaps less effort is needed to perform mental tasks compared to physical tasks. So people ought to just make the most of this mental capability with minimal effort.

I think this is leaving out the conception of pain though. Physical effort is often needed to accept pain. Is there any analogue in the mental realm?


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: on effort [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14399465 - 05/04/11 11:24 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I think you could say that 'mental' effort is needed when a subject's model diverges from reality and requires conscious processes. Similarly, 'physical' effort is needed when a subject's strived body position diverges from the true body position and requires energy from muscles.

Nice :thumbup:

Physical effort is often needed to accept pain. Is there any analogue in the mental realm?

I'm not sure I follow this. Physical effort needed to accept pain? Meaning that we cannot just stand still after we touch a hot burner, we automatically pull our hand away? Then isn't the analogous mental stimulus stress, and attempts to lessen it's presence? 


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: on effort [Re: Kickle]
    #14399625 - 05/04/11 12:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Im thinking of trying to lift certain weights, it can feel painful to use full effort. As we run further also, our body becomes sore more and more and it takes effort to keep going. However some people find ways of using less effort, just like some people can get particularly fit and continue exerting with little worry.
Perhaps mental pain is akin to frustration, annoyance. As people develop their minds, they can approach mental tasks without feeling frustrated or annoyed with them, thus performing them effortlessly.

Nevertheless, I think even a marathon runner puts effort into continually going, and Im sure the pain in their body's is telling them to stop.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: on effort [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14400746 - 05/04/11 04:10 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

there's analogous pain on the mental level, and its experienced in the body in a subtle way.  Just not like overt muscle soreness, more of a chemical feeling.  Boredom, heartbreak, frustration, anxiety, excitement...those all have acute bodily feelings that stem directly from mental activity.  And just like working out with weights, you can raise your body's tolerance to them.


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InvisibleDisoRDeR
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Re: on effort [Re: Kickle]
    #14404498 - 05/05/11 10:05 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I think you could say that 'mental' effort is needed when a subject's model diverges from reality and requires conscious processes. Similarly, 'physical' effort is needed when a subject's strived body position diverges from the true body position and requires energy from muscles.

Nice :thumbup:





:thumbup:

Much more succinctly stated, and the addition of conscious processes is key.  I`m still not sure I buy the explanation of the divergence of one`s model from reality as the cause of mental effort... a necessary cause, perhaps, but not sufficient.  It seems to be a modifying factor in the physical effort necessary for work as well, i.e. A subject's physical coordination (which I'd say is directly related to their ability to model their own body and it's capacities) while walking across a tightrope.

That said, I still don`t really know what mental effort is.  In many cases I find conscious processes to be tangential and noncontributory to the task which is to be done.  An unnecessary draw on mental resources.  Could mental effort be described as a sort of mental processing overhead?  Losses due to psychological inefficiency?

To relate it back to the OP, the concept of self-imposed tensions is a good one.

Quote:

it is just a self induced physical and mental tension created by the idea that resistance to a certain outcome requires physical and mental tension




Hmm, do you suppose it is such a simple sort of mental feedback loop?  Could we call this tension 'trying'?  I can see the sabotaging habits of tension becoming ingrained this way.

"Do or do not.  There is no try"  :yoda:


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