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Offlineauxiliary
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: Poid]
    #14414745 - 05/07/11 11:25 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
In what sense would the observations of human beings be inherent in nature? :confused:



Eh, worded it incorrectly. Not the human observation, but what the humans are observing. We are observing nature, aren't we? The Laws of Physics are just definitions of what we observe in nature, right?

The color of the sky is blue, but that doesn't mean we invented the color blue, does it? Is that even a good analogy?


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14414767 - 05/07/11 11:29 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i think you two guys (diecommie and auxiliary) are talking about the same thing.

for example, electricity is an observable phenomenon for which we have created a working theoretical model that explains and predicts what it will do. however, this model is ultimately based off only of what our senses tell us about the phenomenon. "electricity" is just a word that denotes something we observe that occurs in nature and is, according to our senses, like the model we use to describe it. but the word is not the thing, and what we perceive of electricity is only what our senses allow us to filter in. even with the most sophisticated instrumentation, we are still limited because the end product of what our instrumentation produces is meant for our senses to process.

therefore, there is an objective reality that we are all subjectively experiencing, and in order to communicate with each other we construct models describing reality.


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: MushroomTrip] * 1
    #14414824 - 05/07/11 11:41 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
And since you can't point to it, how can you talk about it? How do you summon your understanding of it? Through which human attributes do you perceive it?




we use reason to summon our understanding of the intangible aspect of reality: the world of the psyche. we talk about it in the same way that we talk about tangible reality, that being through the use of linguistic models. the oldest models are ones of scripture and mythology, and the more recent ones are psychological. but again, all we are doing by this is giving a name to what is already present. the problem with god and higher realms of being is that they aren't as readily available to perceive as the tangible aspects of reality, so they are often rejected.


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

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Offlineauxiliary
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: millzy]
    #14414843 - 05/07/11 11:44 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:thumbup:


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: millzy]
    #14414881 - 05/07/11 11:54 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

auxiliary said:
Quote:

Poid said:
In what sense would the observations of human beings be inherent in nature? :confused:



Eh, worded it incorrectly. Not the human observation, but what the humans are observing. We are observing nature, aren't we? The Laws of Physics are just definitions of what we observe in nature, right?


It's possible that our inferences based on our observations may not accurately reflect reality--scientific theories are subject to revision, and if enough observations contradict any given theory, it is either scrapped or amended. What we are observing may be inherent to nature, but our inferences (i.e. theories) based on our observations may not accurately reflect what is actually occurring in nature.


Quote:

auxiliary said:
The color of the sky is blue, but that doesn't mean we invented the color blue, does it? Is that even a good analogy?


How would I know if it's a bad analogy, you're the one trying to express yourself here. :lol:



Quote:

millzy said:
the problem with god and higher realms of being is that they aren't as readily available to perceive as the tangible aspects of reality, so they are often rejected.


What is "God", besides an imaginary deity? Obviously, he isn't self-evidently existent. :lol:

What do you mean by "higher realms of being"? Is this like being really stoned, kinda like I am right now? :vaped:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlineauxiliary
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: Poid]
    #14414907 - 05/07/11 12:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
How would I know if it's a bad analogy, you're the one trying to express yourself here. :lol:



I was a little unsure of myself. :shrug:


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: auxiliary]
    #14414974 - 05/07/11 12:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

"Was", meaning that you are now sure of yourself? Well, was it a good analogy, or not? :smirk:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlineauxiliary
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: Poid]
    #14414990 - 05/07/11 12:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It holds


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: Poid]
    #14414997 - 05/07/11 12:23 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
What is "God", besides an imaginary deity? Obviously, he isn't self-evidently existent. :lol:




when you say that god is an imaginary diety, i think you're correct, but i don't think you know in what sense you are correct and why.

generally, god is a word we use to describe the ultimate defining aspect of reality. in some traditions it is given male human traits due to the role the male plays in reproduction - "the father" etc. from a western standpoint i believe the hesiodic traditions of greece were amongst the first to assign human traits to their gods (see hesiod's "theogony"). imo this, anthropomorphic view of divinity can be a pernicious set of beliefs, because it tends to lead people to a perception of the model being the thing it is describing. again, god is just a piece of language we use to describe an aspect of our subjective experience of reality.

further, why would god be self evident? he isn't, and i never made the supposition that he is. god must be hidden in order for us to experience reality the way we do, otherwise we would experience reality as god.

again, some of you really need to hone your reading skills.

Quote:

What do you mean by "higher realms of being"? Is this like being really stoned, kinda like I am right now? :vaped:




being has a definite order to it, just like tangible reality. if the mind did not have structure it wouldn't be able to do the things that it does.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

Edited by millzy (05/07/11 12:24 PM)

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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: millzy]
    #14415016 - 05/07/11 12:26 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
i reject materialism in that i feel that there is much more to reality than the physical plane. i reject atheism in that i feel there is an ultimate, super-personal level of being that exists outside of physical reality that we all share connectivity to, or "god" if you want to be technical about it, but that's just a label. the personal level of being is the spark of divinity that is rooted at the base of our consciousness, which you could consider "the christ" in the christian model, but again that's just a label. the "holy ghost" would be this sort of energy field that binds it all together.

darwin was very astute when he said that "consciousness is the act of nature observing itself". to simply sum up at this point what i feel reality is, i think that consciousness is manifesting itself physically through the field of time in order to observe itself, and i think that as organisms that possess reason, we are meant to understand this, and perhaps use this knowledge in order to further our evolution as a species.




I don't get this at all. Please explain what makes you think there is more to reality that what we can experience in the physical realm? If no one in history or yourself has ever experienced this non-physical realm why are you even attempting to posit it as real? I mean, wtf is non-physical realm anyway? Some sort of God consciousness existing without a brain or external stimuli?

Even the Darwin quote you have is not pointing to anything metaphysical. Consciousness is nature observing itself could simply be humanity studying biology, aka what Darwin was doing. Humans are a part of nature observing nature and huzza you have consciousness. Stop trying to find a way to justify something you (1) cannot describe and (2) have not experienced.

Finally, why is the idea of something metaphysical important to you? How is adding the idea of non-real things helping you in the real reality, you know, the physical realm.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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OfflineTerry M
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: millzy]
    #14415131 - 05/07/11 12:53 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
i reject materialism in that i feel that there is much more to reality than the physical plane.




The "physical plane" makes reality complicated enough for me! I'd hate to think there was more to try and understand. Physics represents the world as an extremely complex system of mathematical models. The accuracy of these models is verified by experiment. This complexity is essential in order to account for all that we observe.


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Liberté, égalité, humidité.

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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14415175 - 05/07/11 01:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
I don't get this at all. Please explain what makes you think there is more to reality that what we can experience in the physical realm?




we experience reality on more than just the physical realm. for example, our emotions are not experienced in any tangible place in reality.

Quote:

If no one in history or yourself has ever experienced this non-physical realm why are you even attempting to posit it as real?




i would be surprised if there was anyone in history who didn't experience having a mind, barring people with birth defects or traumatic brain injuries.

Quote:

I mean, wtf is non-physical realm anyway? Some sort of God consciousness existing without a brain or external stimuli?




non physical meaning the realm of intangible objects and phenomena.


Quote:

Even the Darwin quote you have is not pointing to anything metaphysical.




that's incorrect. the term consciousness implies metaphysics, that which lies beyond the realm of the tangible. and darwin wasn't talking about people studying nature. he was referring to the actual act of nature doing what it does.

Quote:

Stop trying to find a way to justify something you (1) cannot describe and (2) have not experienced.




i have no difficulty describing anything, and i have the experience of living to verify that i have, indeed, experienced something metaphysical. i think the difficulty here lies in your ability to understand the concepts i'm referring to, most likely because you have had inadequate exposure to them, which is evident in your inability to produce rhetorically sound arguments in an effort to refute them.

Quote:

Finally, why is the idea of something metaphysical important to you? How is adding the idea of non-real things helping you in the real reality, you know, the physical realm.




why is it important to me? i guess it's as important as anyone's world view in that it helps me understand the world in which i exist. further, my beliefs are derived solely from experience. i think faith is a faulty concept.

and beyond all of this, i'm not trying to "convert" anyone. all i've done so far is respond to questions and smarmy attacks (in the case of yourself and poid). my original topic has yet to be addressed, and it's becoming very apparent that this forum has been mislabeled as a place to discuss anything remotely philosophical.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

Edited by millzy (05/07/11 01:10 PM)

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: DieCommie]
    #14415176 - 05/07/11 01:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Noteworthy said:
you might define 'physical' as just meaning 'everything that exists'
but many people define physical as 'that which is described and determined by physics'




Wouldn't that imply that there was nothing physical before we invented physics?  :confused:




Why would that be the case?

If Platypus means a certain type of creature, it existed before we ever realised the distinction that Platypus makes.

Similarly, the things that physical descriptions describe existed before we developed our physical distinctions.

But do physical descriptions describe all that exists?

No, because they don't describe certain traits of our phenomenal experience. They also don't precisely describe when an atom is doing to decay (but they can describe an overall average in experimentally controlled conditions). They can't adequitely account for the motion of galaxies from known masses. Such things still occur, and developing some physics of the future would not bring into existance anything other than a way of thinking about what already exists.

Until these things are understood, our physics (and physical models) do not describe all of reality.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14415189 - 05/07/11 01:13 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Until these things are understood, our physics (and physical models) do not describe all of reality.




Nobody claims that they do.  Right now, Type II superconductors cannot be described by physics.  Does that make them non-physical?  100 years ago, why hot objects glow could not be described by physics, but now it can be.  Has that phenomenon gone from being non-physical to physical in the last 100 years?

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #14415197 - 05/07/11 01:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

i think it's a rational response to rigid, fear-fueled, antiquated orthodoxy.




One need not attempt to understand the atheist view as it is self-explanatory without any deep pondering or Freudian analysis. There is zero evidence for God/spirit.

That is all. No Herculean strain.




the reason this argument holds no weight for many people is that they can see clear as day (or night.. or anything) that there is a 'spiritual' or simply 'unexplained' conscious element to the universe. You can't point to it because you can only point at physical things.




And since you can't point to it, how can you talk about it? How do you summon your understanding of it? Through which human attributes do you perceive it?





Pointing can only be done with things outside of your mind. You are not limited to think about things outside of your mind, but other people are limited to thinking about things outside of your mind. So, your communication with other people can only ever involve topics that you can point at. But your communication within yourself is not limited by this same constraint. It can recognise something as existing, whos qualities are not fully described (though perhaps partially described) by physics/psychology.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: millzy]
    #14415201 - 05/07/11 01:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
generally, god is a word we use to describe the ultimate defining aspect of reality. in some traditions it is given male human traits due to the role the male plays in reproduction - "the father" etc. from a western standpoint i believe the hesiodic traditions of greece were amongst the first to assign human traits to their gods (see hesiod's "theogony"). imo this, anthropomorphic view of divinity can be a pernicious set of beliefs, because it tends to lead people to a perception of the model being the thing it is describing. again, god is just a piece of language we use to describe an aspect of our subjective experience of reality.


Everybody has a different personal definition for the term 'God', no two people's definition of 'God' is exactly alike. Sure, 'God' is a subjective experience of reality, much like any other fantasy is a subjective experience of reality.


Quote:

millzy said:
further, why would god be self evident? he isn't, and i never made the supposition that he is. god must be hidden in order for us to experience reality the way we do, otherwise we would experience reality as god.

again, some of you really need to hone your reading skills.


No, but you could hone your writing skills, and maybe try to grasp the point I made instead of resorting to pitiful ad hominems. :grin:

The fact that "He" isn't self-evidently existent is strong evidence which suggests that "He" only exists inside people's imaginations. My raising of the fact that God isn't self-evidently existent was not the result of a reading comprehension error on my part, it was to make the aforementioned point.

It's worth noting that there are many people who disagree with your definition of God, not that you will get the hint, though...:rolleyes:


Quote:

millzy said:
Quote:

What do you mean by "higher realms of being"? Is this like being really stoned, kinda like I am right now? :vaped:




being has a definite order to it, just like tangible reality. if the mind did not have structure it wouldn't be able to do the things that it does.


What do you mean by "being"? What definite order does it have? I agree with your second statement there, but I don't understand your point. :undecided:


Quote:

millzy said:
and beyond all of this, i'm not trying to "convert" anyone. all i've done so far is respond to questions and smarmy attacks (in the case of yourself and poid). my original topic has yet to be addressed, and it's becoming very apparent that this forum has been mislabeled as a place to discuss anything remotely philosophical.


Can you please quote where I made a smarmy attack? :confused:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (05/07/11 01:25 PM)

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: DieCommie]
    #14415212 - 05/07/11 01:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Until these things are understood, our physics (and physical models) do not describe all of reality.




Nobody claims that they do.  Right now, Type II superconductors cannot be described by physics.  Does that make them non-physical?  100 years ago, why hot objects glow could not be described by physics, but now it can be.  Has that phenomenon gone from being non-physical to physical in the last 100 years?





Yes IF 'physical' refers to whatever physics was 100 years ago.
No IF 'Physical' refers to current physics.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14415219 - 05/07/11 01:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I dont understand what 'physical' means in the context of this forum...  It always baffles me when people make the distinction.

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: DieCommie]
    #14415231 - 05/07/11 01:22 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

when people deny the existance of something non-physical they are denying that anything exists that cant be explained by physics. Of course, this is blatantly wrong.

If a person, when saying physical, actually just meant 'all that exists' then nothing could be supernatural/ nonphysical. Which means Even some hocus pocus magic would be called physical.

Which would render the word useless.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14415246 - 05/07/11 01:25 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

when people deny the existance of something non-physical they are denying that anything exists that cant be explained by physics.




I dont think that is the case at all.  I have never meet anybody who thinks that, not even professional physicists.

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