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Invisiblemillzy
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i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view
    #14404290 - 05/05/11 09:02 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

so, i'm finishing up my first year in school, and i'm reading freud for one of my classes ("the future of an illusion" - it's for a class on religion). to give some background, i was a staunch atheist/materialist until about my mid 20's before things started to slowly give way to whatever it is i am now.

anyway, my appraisal of freud is that his criticism of religion, in addition to being extremely euro-centric, is also a response to the fundamentalist brand of the judeo-christian traditions. i've ascertained that this is a completely rational response. in the post enlightenment era, with the growing literacy of the western world and the advent of science, it makes complete sense to reject what is largely a literal and perverse interpretation of scripture.

however, while i feel that freud's argument is by far the most compelling argument in defense of an atheistic world view, i see its limitations in what i mentioned above. it certainly doesn't hold up to any sort of scholarly interpretation of the judeo-christian traditions, nor does it apply to any eastern, pantheistic tradition. speaking for myself, i hated religion until i came to a better understanding of it, and i see a lot of my younger self in freud and people who espouse such beliefs.

anyway, i figured this belongs in the psychology forum since it's about freud. just thought i'd throw that out there to chew on.


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: millzy]
    #14404779 - 05/05/11 11:22 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

What religious beliefs do you hold?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: deCypher]
    #14409127 - 05/06/11 08:54 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

well i'm pretty much a heretic. gnostic christianity is probably the closest to the metaphysical model that i hold, but i'd never consider or proclaim myself to be christian.


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: millzy]
    #14409386 - 05/06/11 10:11 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So what exactly do you believe that doesnt fit the atheist/materialist world view?

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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: DieCommie]
    #14409560 - 05/06/11 10:49 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i reject materialism in that i feel that there is much more to reality than the physical plane. i reject atheism in that i feel there is an ultimate, super-personal level of being that exists outside of physical reality that we all share connectivity to, or "god" if you want to be technical about it, but that's just a label. the personal level of being is the spark of divinity that is rooted at the base of our consciousness, which you could consider "the christ" in the christian model, but again that's just a label. the "holy ghost" would be this sort of energy field that binds it all together.

darwin was very astute when he said that "consciousness is the act of nature observing itself". to simply sum up at this point what i feel reality is, i think that consciousness is manifesting itself physically through the field of time in order to observe itself, and i think that as organisms that possess reason, we are meant to understand this, and perhaps use this knowledge in order to further our evolution as a species.


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: millzy]
    #14409580 - 05/06/11 10:53 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

What do you mean when you say the "physical plane," and more importantly, what do you mean by "outside" the physical?

People use these kinds of phrases all the time but I have yet to really figure them out. I don't see consciousness as being separate from the physical world at all. Quite the opposite, I see the two as being one and the same.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: millzy]
    #14409615 - 05/06/11 11:00 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

i reject materialism in that i feel




Are your feelings 100% correct? Is feeling a good metric for validity?


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: NetDiver]
    #14409637 - 05/06/11 11:05 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

physical plane meaning the world of matter. and i didn't say that consciousness was completely separate from the physical plane. what i described was a closed system. matter is imbued and animated by consciousness to a degree, imo. however i think that the source of consciousness is from strata that exists beyond the world of matter. i also feel that the self/ego structure of the mind resides on some level of reality that is perhaps situated in a way that it can leave the field of time (e.g. via the experience of eternity, "ego death" and so on) and perceive the higher dimensions of existence. 

as far as my feelings being "correct", i'm not trying to witness my personal beliefs, and really it doesn't make any difference to me if anyone agrees with me or not. it's just the way that i order my experience of life. my point is that i have a better understanding of the atheist world view. to reemphasize, i think it's a rational response to rigid, fear-fueled, antiquated orthodoxy.


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: millzy]
    #14409677 - 05/06/11 11:16 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

i think it's a rational response to rigid, fear-fueled, antiquated orthodoxy.




One need not attempt to understand the atheist view as it is self-explanatory without any deep pondering or Freudian analysis. There is zero evidence for God/spirit.

That is all. No Herculean strain.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: millzy]
    #14409686 - 05/06/11 11:18 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

as far as my feelings being "correct", i'm not trying to witness my personal beliefs




Really? What then were you doing?


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14409748 - 05/06/11 11:29 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

as far as my feelings being "correct", i'm not trying to witness my personal beliefs




Really? What then were you doing?




i was responding to questions that wer asked by other posters and clarifying some points i made.

moreover, i wasn't giving a "freudian" analysis of the atheist world view. i was commenting on freud's analysis of a theist world view, which imo is the most compelling argument against it (theism) that i've read thus far in spite of its limitations. i was actually complimenting atheism.

you should probably learn to read more carefully.


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

Edited by millzy (05/06/11 11:37 AM)

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14414328 - 05/07/11 09:11 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

i think it's a rational response to rigid, fear-fueled, antiquated orthodoxy.




One need not attempt to understand the atheist view as it is self-explanatory without any deep pondering or Freudian analysis. There is zero evidence for God/spirit.

That is all. No Herculean strain.




the reason this argument holds no weight for many people is that they can see clear as day (or night.. or anything) that there is a 'spiritual' or simply 'unexplained' conscious element to the universe. You can't point to it because you can only point at physical things.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: NetDiver]
    #14414331 - 05/07/11 09:12 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
What do you mean when you say the "physical plane," and more importantly, what do you mean by "outside" the physical?

People use these kinds of phrases all the time but I have yet to really figure them out. I don't see consciousness as being separate from the physical world at all. Quite the opposite, I see the two as being one and the same.




you might define 'physical' as just meaning 'everything that exists'
but many people define physical as 'that which is described and determined by physics'


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14414376 - 05/07/11 09:26 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

while i agree that materialism is unsatisfying, for myself at least, in ordering my subjective experience of reality, and i appreciate all of the comments, even the tragically glib ones, i'm not trying to instigate an e-shouting match between theists and atheists. i wanted to discuss freud and his argument for atheism. bad idea i suppose. i'm beginning to get the impression that a lot of posters in this forum have yet to read any serious literature on the subjects being discussed here.


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

Edited by millzy (05/07/11 09:27 AM)

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14414602 - 05/07/11 10:49 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
you might define 'physical' as just meaning 'everything that exists'
but many people define physical as 'that which is described and determined by physics'




Wouldn't that imply that there was nothing physical before we invented physics?  :confused:

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Offlineauxiliary
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: DieCommie]
    #14414631 - 05/07/11 10:57 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Noteworthy said:
you might define 'physical' as just meaning 'everything that exists'
but many people define physical as 'that which is described and determined by physics'




Wouldn't that imply that there was nothing physical before we invented physics?  :confused:



We invented physics?:confused:

Edited by auxiliary (05/07/11 10:58 AM)

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: auxiliary]
    #14414638 - 05/07/11 10:58 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

We invented physics?
I assumed we just discovered it.





Nope, scientific theories are invented by man.  They are purposefully constructed to model and predict our observations.  Its observations that are discovered, and it is easy to confuse the map with the territory in this sense.

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Offlineauxiliary
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: DieCommie]
    #14414658 - 05/07/11 11:04 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Aw man you caught my assumption. I understand the labeling we put on our observations is man's creation, but aren't the observations themselves inherent in nature?


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: auxiliary]
    #14414700 - 05/07/11 11:14 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

In what sense would the observations of human beings be inherent in nature? :confused:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: i think i've come to a better understanding of the atheistic/materialist world view [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14414732 - 05/07/11 11:20 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

i think it's a rational response to rigid, fear-fueled, antiquated orthodoxy.




One need not attempt to understand the atheist view as it is self-explanatory without any deep pondering or Freudian analysis. There is zero evidence for God/spirit.

That is all. No Herculean strain.




the reason this argument holds no weight for many people is that they can see clear as day (or night.. or anything) that there is a 'spiritual' or simply 'unexplained' conscious element to the universe. You can't point to it because you can only point at physical things.




And since you can't point to it, how can you talk about it? How do you summon your understanding of it? Through which human attributes do you perceive it?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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