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Offlinessc18
Super Saiya-jin Android
Male

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 254
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: The Size Of Infinity [Re: Diploid]
    #14400941 - 05/04/11 04:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
There is no mystery or wonder about it, its a simple function of our base and unit choice alone.

BTW, if this were true, wouldn't the effect be seen in a collection of random numbers spanning several orders?

But it's not. It shows up in a list of the first thousand prime numbers, but it does not show up in a random collection of numbers spanning the same range.




HAHA YEAH! Prime numbers are crazy bat shit. They cant exist! Except inside nothingsomething!

So we are talking about(numbers) OR a set of "somethings" that are not solely "somethings" but are actually "nothingsomethings"


--------------------
:*::*::*:

To be what you want to become you must deny what you need to become.

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Offlinessc18
Super Saiya-jin Android
Male

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 254
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: The Size Of Infinity [Re: ssc18]
    #14400953 - 05/04/11 04:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ssc18 said:
Quote:

Diploid said:
There is no mystery or wonder about it, its a simple function of our base and unit choice alone.

BTW, if this were true, wouldn't the effect be seen in a collection of random numbers spanning several orders?

But it's not. It shows up in a list of the first thousand prime numbers, but it does not show up in a random collection of numbers spanning the same range.




HAHA YEAH! Prime numbers are crazy bat shit. They cant exist! Except inside nothingsomething!

So we are talking about(numbers) OR a set of "somethings" that are not solely "somethings" but are actually "nothingsomethings"



And from this we can understand that only 1 is separate. OR IS IT?!

Muwhahaha one of the epic questions of the realm of nothingness and somethingness.


--------------------
:*::*::*:

To be what you want to become you must deny what you need to become.

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: The Size Of Infinity [Re: DieCommie]
    #14401001 - 05/04/11 05:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

But, considering buildings randomly distributed between 0 and 1999 units, over half of them would start with 1 because all the building between 100 and 199 as well as 1000 and 1999 units start with a one (conveniently ignoring the leading zero of course).

Of course, because you're limiting the range.

If you consider buildings randomly distributed between 0 and 9999, over 30% of them would start with 1 and only 4% would start with 9.

Your explanation doesn't explain that.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlinessc18
Super Saiya-jin Android
Male

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 254
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: The Size Of Infinity [Re: DieCommie]
    #14401044 - 05/04/11 05:18 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
I dont think modern mathematicians are studying it.  There isnt much to study, its what you would expect if you think about it for a bit.  I dont see how it could be any other way...

Quote:

Why would a list of building heights have 999 appear FAR, FAR less often than 1,111? Why would buildings 112 units taller be built so much more often?




That isnt how it works.  There arn't more buildings with a height of 1111 than 999.  But, considering buildings randomly distributed between 0 and 1999 units, over half of them would start with 1 because all the building between 100 and 199 as well as 1000 and 1999 units start with a one (conveniently ignoring the leading zero of course).  That is all there is to it.  If you change the units or the base such that the same group of buildings now fall between 0 and 9999 you will no longer see the effect.  Change the units/base such that the buildings fall between 0 and 1,999,999 and you will see the effect again.



edit - I like the first reply from your link:
Quote:

I think to say Benford's Law can't be explained by scientists is not just sensationalist, it's plain wrong. Benford's law may be unintuitive but it's been explained many times in various ways and is very well understood (but not by Torres clearly).







Oh yeah, It is being Studied. BUt first you have to understand two--things are once on this side, and then represent no things on the other.

It is like i-m-p-o-s-s-i-b-l-e.

AND it is the drawing of infinity we might just get to watch unfold...oh wait, we already are!

SOMETIMES, i question if we are really even real. I mean made out of real stuff.,. i wonder if we are existing on/in the matrix. we 2 digits that something "real" made.

Then u wonder how that something real was made? Well it was made in the something it made. It was a portal, it made Alpha Omega! Think about it...

But also think about the possibility of a God saying, HMMM I want to make perfection, and he threw together PERFETION. He threw gother when the atom of gold was actually red in color, and he threw it together when anything u can imagine happens. ANyTHing u CAn IMagine.

Symbols? What are they but darts being thrown at an invisible wall and we are feeling/sensing that wall.

What else COULD there be?

ALl this you say? Yes I agree, but lets take a different look at nothing and something.


The something is creating, creating all things all forms of imagination and possibility. And the nothingness is taking it all in.

The nothingness is simply absorbing the information reflected by somethingness. It is God, it is truly interpreting things how they "should be."

God can be in many forms, but there is only "truely" nothingness inside of the universe.

My theory is one that I already know will be proved right later in time. The blackholes are creating all, they are the capturing mechanism of "nothingness" And here comes my theory: WHen nothingness "catches" nothingness like a blanket, it will create ways to get rid of all things in between the sheets of the blanket. Because the nothingness is what the winner wants, what the king wants, what the thing we are inside of wants, whatever u want to think:let God take u through HIS course on life, and if you aren't satisfied then you need to take HIM on YOUR course in life....Teach God, because it is possible he is waiting for his ANSWERS from U?! THINK of the possibilities guys.

But God still is saying this: Lets make all possibilities! Let's do "this" guys. Let's do "time" once. Dance.

Then BOOM there goes time! Fast? Slow? Big? Small? WHAT TYPE OF SYMBOLS CAN I CAPTURE AND TAKE BACK? WHAT SHOULD I GRAB TO TAKE WITH ME?? WHAT DOES GOD WANT TO HEAR ABOUT/what is here??

"SO symbols were there guys?"

"Yeah, God.!" , "Yeah God, It was Totally Something"

"Well can u explain it?"

"Nah, I only learned symbols when I was there... I never learned how to move as 1..."

"WHat the FUk guys? that was the first thing i was hoping u would get on ur way back, how did it all move? what was there?"

"Sorry God, I only learned how to sense the energy around me."

"Oh shit, u were handicapped"

"Yeah, God I know"

"Hey u think a bunch of gold, like as much as u can want would work out?"

"Yeah God, lets just go to sleep"

"Yeah, peace out guys"

This lesson shows you that the law of nirvana is king.

Personally I think there is more to infinity then meets the eyes.

I am talking like PLatos Forms to the MAX.


--------------------
:*::*::*:

To be what you want to become you must deny what you need to become.

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Offlinessc18
Super Saiya-jin Android
Male

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 254
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: The Size Of Infinity [Re: Diploid]
    #14401052 - 05/04/11 05:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
But, considering buildings randomly distributed between 0 and 1999 units, over half of them would start with 1 because all the building between 100 and 199 as well as 1000 and 1999 units start with a one (conveniently ignoring the leading zero of course).

Of course, because you're limiting the range.

If you consider buildings randomly distributed between 0 and 9999, over 30% of them would start with 1 and only 4% would start with 9.

Your explanation doesn't explain that.



you don't quite view the "stuff" right here bro... "stuff" being numbers


--------------------
:*::*::*:

To be what you want to become you must deny what you need to become.

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: The Size Of Infinity [Re: ssc18]
    #14401070 - 05/04/11 05:23 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

ssc18, one more nonsense post and I'm banning you from PS&P for a year.

Take your incoherent, schizophrenic crap to the conspiracy forum. You've been warned about this repeatedly.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: The Size Of Infinity [Re: Diploid]
    #14401117 - 05/04/11 05:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
If you consider buildings randomly distributed between 0 and 9999, over 30% of them would start with 1 and only 4% would start with 9.




I dont believe that is the case.

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: The Size Of Infinity [Re: DieCommie]
    #14401119 - 05/04/11 05:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Wait man. That is EXACTLY what Beford's Law is.

That's why it's so freaky.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: The Size Of Infinity [Re: DieCommie]
    #14401128 - 05/04/11 05:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Here's a repost from my other thread on this topic:


Here's an actual example. Let's look at the length (in feet) of the 20 tallest structures in the world (by category so it spans several orders):

Code:

Burj Khalifa 2,717
KVLY TV Mast 2,063
Guangzhou TV Mast 2,001
CN Tower 1,815
BREN Tower 1,516
Lualualei Transmitter Tower 1,503
Petronas Tower 1,482
Ekibstuz Power Station 1,377
Dimona Radar 1,312
Belmont Transmitter 1,272
Kiev TV Tower 1,263
Gerbrandy Tower 1,203
Yangtze River Crossing 1,137
Millau Viaduct 1,122
Nurek Dam 987
Grande Dixence Dam 935
Nanjing River Crossing 843
NTT Building 790
Hassan Mosque 751
Fuhrlander Wind Turbine 689
Niederaussem Power Station 673
St Louis Arch 656
Anaconda Smelter 630
Olympic Statium Canada 585
San Jacinto Monument 574
Chicabo Temple 570
Singapore Flyer 568
Ulm Minster 548
National Flag Square 548
Kenedy Space Center VAB 541



Now look at the first digit only. Here's that list:

    2
    2
    2
    1
    1
    1
    1
    1
    1
    1
    1
    1
    1
    1
    9
    9
    8
    7
    7
    6
    6
    6
    6
    5
    5
    5
    5
    5
    5
    5

Do you see 1 appearing more often than 2, and 2 appearing more often than 3 and so on until 9 which appears only twice?

Here's the distribution that always emerges:

First    How Often
Digit    It Appears
  1       30.1%
  2       17.6%
  3       12.5%
  4       9.7%
  5       7.9%
  6       6.7%
  7       5.8%
  8       5.1%
  9       4.6%

This pattern emerges if you use inches instead of feet. Or millimeters, or micrometers, or angstroms.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: The Size Of Infinity [Re: Diploid]
    #14401133 - 05/04/11 05:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I dont think so.

Looking at the case of building height cited in the benford wikipedia, those buildings are distributed between 200 and 2800 feet so we can clearly expect those building to follow the benford pattern.  Re-cast those same numbers in different units/base such that they are distributed between 0 and 9999 and you will not see the pattern.  That is why its not freaky.

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: The Size Of Infinity [Re: DieCommie]
    #14401161 - 05/04/11 05:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Ok, I just took your same list of building heights.  I changed the unit to a PSP unit which equals 3.68 feet.  I did this so that the building heights go up to 9999 like we talked about.  I calculated how many PSPs high each of the buildings are...

For leading digits I get;

9: 1 time
8: 0 times
7: 2 times
6: 1 time
5: 4 times
4: 6 times
3: 3 times
2: 12 times
1: 1 time

Just as expected, it doesn't follow benfords law because the numbers span the entire order of magnitude.  How well a set of numbers follows benfords law depends on their units and the base that it used.



edit-

And of course all of this is dependent on conveniently ignoring the leading digit of absolutely each and every measured number - zero.  :grin:

Edited by DieCommie (05/04/11 06:05 PM)

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InvisibleCups
technically "here"
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
Re: The Size Of Infinity [Re: DieCommie]
    #14401236 - 05/04/11 06:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:popcorn:


--------------------
What's up everybody?!

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: The Size Of Infinity [Re: DieCommie]
    #14401309 - 05/04/11 06:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Small sample size.

I'm going to post a comprehensive set of examples from real world data, but it's a lot of work. I have to write an app. Counting 1's and 9's in humungus lists by hand is taking too long.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinessc18
Super Saiya-jin Android
Male

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 254
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: The Size Of Infinity [Re: Diploid]
    #14401325 - 05/04/11 06:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
ssc18, one more nonsense post and I'm banning you from PS&P for a year.

Take your incoherent, schizophrenic crap to the conspiracy forum. You've been warned about this repeatedly.



Quote:

Diploid said:
ssc18, one more nonsense post and I'm banning you from PS&P for a year.

Take your incoherent, schizophrenic crap to the conspiracy forum. You've been warned about this repeatedly.



Quote:

Diploid said:
Small sample size.

I'm going to post a comprehensive set of examples from real world data, but it's a lot of work. I have to write an app. Counting 1's and 9's in humungus lists by hand is taking too long.




Diploid if you actually deleted that post back in december, I had so much into that u have no idea. did u really delete it or can I get those posts back some how! that was really not a cool move. im serious that was some dank information i had.


--------------------
:*::*::*:

To be what you want to become you must deny what you need to become.

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: The Size Of Infinity [Re: Diploid]
    #14403909 - 05/05/11 07:00 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

A cute story I found that helps to explain Benford's Law,

Quote:

Dow Illustrates Benford's Law

To illustrate Benford's Law, Dr. Mark J. Nigrini offered this example:
"If we think of the Dow Jones stock average as 1,000, our first digit would be 1.

"To get to a Dow Jones average with a first digit of 2, the average must increase to 2,000, and getting from 1,000 to 2,000 is a 100 percent increase.

"Let's say that the Dow goes up at a rate of about 20 percent a year. That means that it would take five years to get from 1 to 2 as a first digit.

"But suppose we start with a first digit 5. It only requires a 20 percent increase to get from 5,000 to 6,000, and that is achieved in one year.

"When the Dow reaches 9,000, it takes only an 11 percent increase and just seven months to reach the 10,000 mark, which starts with the number 1. At that point you start over with the first digit a 1, once again. Once again, you must double the number -- 10,000 -- to 20,000 before reaching 2 as the first digit.

"As you can see, the number 1 predominates at every step of the progression, as it does in logarithmic sequences."



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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: The Size Of Infinity [Re: DieCommie]
    #14403976 - 05/05/11 07:28 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

That's an excellent explanation for increasing quantities (especially those increasing at increasing rates, like salaries), but it doesn't explain why it happens in a list of river lengths, or electric bills for a city, or physical constants, or the file sizes of all the files in a hard disk.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: The Size Of Infinity [Re: Diploid]
    #14403988 - 05/05/11 07:31 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Its an explanation for quantities that grow exponentially, they are more likely to be subject to the law (It would explain your portfolio value more so than your checking account value).  Otherwise, the previous explanations revolving around orders of magnitude sufficiently explain the other situations you just listed.

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: The Size Of Infinity [Re: DieCommie]
    #14404100 - 05/05/11 08:11 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Otherwise, the previous explanations revolving around orders of magnitude sufficiently explain the other situations you just listed.

If that were true, it would be seen in random numbers, but it's not. Yet it's seen in measured generally random numbers like river lengths or the lengths of files on a hard drive.

I wrote a program last night to count and analyze the statistics of numerals in text file, then I ran out of energy. When I have a little more time (maybe this weekend) I'm going to try and gather a solid representative sampling and see what happens.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,432
Loc: Under the C
Re: The Size Of Infinity [Re: Diploid]
    #14404104 - 05/05/11 08:13 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I wrote a program last night to count analyze the statistics of numerals in text file, and when I have a little more time and energy (maybe this weekend) I'm going to try and gather a solid representative sampling and see what happens.




Of you could get a girlfriend. :shrug:


--------------------

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: The Size Of Infinity [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14404111 - 05/05/11 08:14 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I tried, but none of them knew how to program a computer. :confused:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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