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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere......
    #1439981 - 04/08/03 04:26 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a
single garment of destiny.
Whatever affects one directly,
Affects all indirectly. -MLK Jr.

so, why shouldn't we free iraq? i've been around this forum a lot the past couple of weeks, and i still haven't come across a good argument for not going into iraq.
You can and definetly should question bush's motives for this war, to be honest, i don't trust the guy at all, but the end result will be a better world. Here are my reasons point by point, as to why this war will be good for the world overall. If you can't find fault with these points, then you should seriously take a look at your position. You may be anitwar for completely selfish reasons.

1. Saddam needs to be removed and this could not be done peacefully. Even if he is not an immediate threat to the US, only an idiot would say he is not a threat to the stability of the middle east, and the atrocities he's committed against his own people is enough to justify his removal.

2. A US led invasion is the best way to do this to minimize the length of the war, the civilian casualiies, and the coallition casualities. (and ironically probably the casualities of the iraqi forces as well.) A revolution would be crushed, and who's to say the rebels wouldn't be led by someone as bad as Saddam?

3. The entire world, not just the US has an interest in iraqi oil. The US is going to go in and repair the degraded oil fields, then turn them over to the iraqi's. You're naive to think that US oil company's won't profit off of this, but the US gets far less oil from iraq than most people seem to think, and there is no way that we could get away with stealing their oil, not with the whole world watching our every move. In the end this will greatly increase the entire world's oil supply, lowering gas prices worldwide, not just in the US.

i really want to understand the point of view of the antiwar protestors, but they don't seem to get the big picture. They seem to base their arguments on these points:
1. Bush is evil. (while i don't totally disagree, this doesn't have anything to do with freeing iraq)
2. No war for oil. (this one is just stupid, see pt3)
3. war is bad. (well, of course it is, but it is sometimes necessary)
4. this will bring more terrorism (so? will doing nothing stop terrorism? in the short term, there may be more terror attacks, but a free, democratic, grateful iraq would be a huge asset in the war on terror, and help show the region that the US really isn't that bad.)

in the end, i think the quote sums up my position pretty well, as long as their are evil dictators in the world, they will fund and support terrorism, and Saddam is just #1 on the list right now.

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Offlinepimpadelic
enthusiast
Registered: 06/17/02
Posts: 255
Loc: Chattanooga, TN
Last seen: 20 years, 10 months
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: flow]
    #1440056 - 04/08/03 04:57 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:




so, why shouldn't we free iraq?






Because we can't free Iraq. Hell, the American people aren't even free.

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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: pimpadelic]
    #1440079 - 04/08/03 05:07 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Because we can't free Iraq. Hell, the American people aren't even free.



who is free then? what the hell are you talking about?

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Offlinepimpadelic
enthusiast
Registered: 06/17/02
Posts: 255
Loc: Chattanooga, TN
Last seen: 20 years, 10 months
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: flow]
    #1440090 - 04/08/03 05:11 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


who is free then? what the hell are you talking about?




I can't really tell you who is free. I thought this discussion was about how you think it is justifiable to free the iraqis and I told you they can't be freed.

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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: pimpadelic]
    #1440109 - 04/08/03 05:18 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I thought this discussion was about how you think it is justifiable to free the iraqis and I told you they can't be freed.



what a stupid argument. so you're saying people can never be free, if that is the case go to the philosophy forum, because i'm not about to debate that bs.

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Anonymous

Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: flow]
    #1440116 - 04/08/03 05:20 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

people like you are among the easiest to deny their freedom

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Offlinepimpadelic
enthusiast
Registered: 06/17/02
Posts: 255
Loc: Chattanooga, TN
Last seen: 20 years, 10 months
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: flow]
    #1440119 - 04/08/03 05:22 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

IM not saying people cant be free. Im just saying the United Stated Government can't free anybody. Hell we have more people in prison per capita then any other nation in the world.


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Anonymous

Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: pimpadelic]
    #1440136 - 04/08/03 05:25 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

not just per capita my friend

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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: flow]
    #1440142 - 04/08/03 05:26 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Flow I thought that was well written, but I will argue anyways.

Quote:


so, why shouldn't we free iraq? i've been around this forum a lot the past couple of weeks, and i still haven't come across a good argument for not going into iraq.




Here's one: Iraq does not belong to America, it is a sovereign nation, that wasn't attacking America. Iraq and America have had a bitter rivalry, and I argue that my country (Canada) should not go to war against a nation that we neither hate nor are threatened by. I am proud that my country is staying out of this war.

Anyways its a moot point: the war is on, and whining about it wont stop it. I think protesters and other peace activist pressure is doing good though: making the war less atrocious than it probably would have been. I suspect that Shock and Awe was brought down a few notches in brutality because of Feb 15th.

Quote:


You may be anitwar for completely selfish reasons.




Its not that I care deeply about Iraqis, I dont. At least I admit it. War is a bad deal, because it's harmful effects spill over into other areas: economy, freedom, and justice. Even though I care about my Americans brothers more than I do about Iraqis, I'd rather see America 'not in a war' than 'in a war'.

Quote:


1. Saddam needs to be removed and this could not be done peacefully. Even if he is not an immediate threat to the US, only an idiot would say he is not a threat to the stability of the middle east, and the atrocities he's committed against his own people is enough to justify his removal.




I see no reason why Americans need Saddam removed, other than: "I dont like him, hes evil, he has bad oil policies, he treats people bad, he is as bad as a terrorist". If you had said something like: "Saddam is attacking American troops outside of Iraq" that would have got me going.

Quote:


2. A US led invasion is the best way to do this to minimize the length of the war, the civilian casualiies, and the coallition casualities.




Thats true, but thats not an argument for war. Thats an argument for who should lead a war.

Quote:


3. The entire world, not just the US has an interest in iraqi oil.




Of course they are interested, its only natural. Not an argument for war.

Quote:


The US is going to go in and repair the degraded oil fields, then turn them over to the iraqi's. You're naive to think that US oil company's won't profit off of this, but the US gets far less oil from iraq than most people seem to think, and there is no way that we could get away with stealing their oil, not with the whole world watching our every move. In the end this will greatly increase the entire world's oil supply, lowering gas prices worldwide, not just in the US.




There are many other alternatives to repairing an oilfield than war. Saddam would have granted these rights to France/Russia over America. I think that, topped with the Euro, Saddam really pissed off the US administration.

Quote:


4. this will bring more terrorism (so? will doing nothing stop terrorism? in the short term, there may be more terror attacks, but a free, democratic, grateful iraq would be a huge asset in the war on terror, and help show the region that the US really isn't that bad.)




We can never know until when/if it happens, but I'm betting that terrorist attempts will increase. So? Terrorist increases are a bad thing. If doing nothing will not stop terrorism, then at the very least, doing nothing is better than war.

You are placing alot of faith in America doing a complete about face after this war is over. A 180 degree turn into the light, for all the world to see! What convincing evidence do you have to show us that this is a likely scenario?

Quote:


Saddam is just #1 on the list right now.




You'll have another #1 right after Saddam is done with. And another #1, and another, and another... all I see here is a recipe for endless war. American actions are bringing about disgusting acts of inhumanity (civilian casualties), and yet America tries to ignore it, or do anything they can to make these crimes seem irrelevant and insignificant. If an American child had his arms blown off by an Iraqi bomb, what would happen? Would you dismiss it as colateral damage, or would you be pissed off? I was extremely mad when 9/11 happened, now it is happening again, from the hand of America, and you expect other countries to support you?

As an advocate of peace, what I see are two warlike cultures trying to pretend they are the good guys of this conflict, when the fact is both Iraq and America are acting like dumbasses who can't mend their grievances. "Show your cards", "with us or against us", Bush wants to drag the whole world into his war. Count me out.

In the end, I agree with you in that, I hope it all turns out for the best.


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom

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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: ]
    #1440150 - 04/08/03 05:27 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

people like you are among the easiest to deny their freedom



do you know me? No. You would have to have come to that opinion in this way: Flow is pro-war, therefore he is a brainwashed sheep. This is obviously moronic, and quite typical of the anitwar people on this site. instead of trying to insult me, why not try to prove me wrong by giving some sort of evidence that one of my points is wrong. Or is it to hard for you?

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Offlinepimpadelic
enthusiast
Registered: 06/17/02
Posts: 255
Loc: Chattanooga, TN
Last seen: 20 years, 10 months
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: flow]
    #1440164 - 04/08/03 05:33 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


Flow is pro-war, therefore he is a brainwashed sheep. 




I have to agree with you on that :smirk: 

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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: pattern]
    #1440208 - 04/08/03 05:50 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Iraq does not belong to America, it is a sovereign nation, that wasn't attacking America.



so because they don't live in our country we shouldn't care about the people of iraq? oh, i get it. Let me ask you this. If you're neighbor abuses his kids, but does nothing to you, are you wrong to stop him?
Quote:

I see no reason why Americans need Saddam removed, other than: "I dont like him, hes evil, he has bad oil policies, he treats people bad, he is as bad as a terrorist".



how about freeing the people who have been living under his boot? That was kind of my point, freeing the iraqi people, by itself is enough justification for this war.
Quote:

There are many other alternatives to repairing an oilfield than war. Saddam would have granted these rights to France/Russia over America.



see, the whole problem is that UN sanctions would have prevented this as long as saddam led the country. Obviously, no more oil was going to be allowed to leave iraq than UN sanctions permitted as long as the money would go to fund saddam's war machine, therefore, saddam needed to be removed for these oil fields to be repaired, therefore, this war was necessary to allow the entire world access to that oil.
Quote:

but I'm betting that terrorist attempts will increase.



please explain why.
Quote:

You are placing alot of faith in America doing a complete about face after this war is over.



how is this an about face? is this war not called "operation iraqi freedom?"
has our gov't not made it clear that the goal of this war is a free, democratic iraq?
Quote:

You'll have another #1 right after Saddam is done with. And another #1, and another, and another... all I see here is a recipe for endless war.



yep, until we run out of dictators who suppress their people. think about it though, if we go through these countries one by one, and successfully turn them into democracies, won't that make the whole world a better place? I'm not naive enough to think this will bring about world peace, but can you think of a better way to start than removing evil dictators from power?

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Anonymous

Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: flow]
    #1440221 - 04/08/03 05:54 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Your points are laughable. But I'll pick your stupid post apart, just for you little buddy. But first, I've seen a lot of your posts, I didn't arrive at any conclusion about you based on this single post or even solely on your position regarding the war. Unless I have mistaken you for someone else. I thought you were the guy who supported the patriot act. If that's not you, maybe you aren't as bad as I thought. That doesn't negate the fact that you didn't make a single good point, no matter how much you thought you did.

Quote:

Saddam needs to be removed and this could not be done peacefully.




Did he need to be removed? Or did he need to be disarmed? Because up until the week before the war, the US simply wanted him to be disarmed. And who needs him to be removed? The Kurds? Maybe. American oil companies? For sure.

Quote:

Even if he is not an immediate threat to the US, only an idiot would say he is not a threat to the stability of the middle east, and the atrocities he's committed against his own people is enough to justify his removal.




Atrocities committed against one's own people has never been reason enough for any state to go to war. There are countless other countries where human rights are walked all over. Why aren't you out screaming for war with China and North Korea? With Iran? Pakistan (oh, my fault, they support our war on Iraq so let's just ignore their own human rights record)? Cuba? Where are we in all those places? Either human rights as a sole issue is reason enough to invade another country, or it isn't. To make no judgement on whether this is right or wrong, Flow, it isn't reason enough according to pesky little things like the law.

Quote:

A US led invasion is the best way to do this to minimize the length of the war, the civilian casualiies, and the coallition casualities. (and ironically probably the casualities of the iraqi forces as well.) A revolution would be crushed, and who's to say the rebels wouldn't be led by someone as bad as Saddam?




This a poorly written paragraph so I'm having trouble ascertaining what your point is. If your point is that the US is most capable of waging war, and thus should lead any military action IF it were to take place in Iraq, I agree. This says absolutely nothing to the question of whether ANYONE should be there currently.

Quote:

The entire world, not just the US has an interest in iraqi oil. The US is going to go in and repair the degraded oil fields, then turn them over to the iraqi's. You're naive to think that US oil company's won't profit off of this,




You're worse than naive if you don't think the US oil companies are going to profit off this. If you can't even concede that you're an ignorant crusader who lives in a dream world. Thankfully even you are able to admit this. You don't seem to be able to grasp the extent of it however.

Quote:

but the US gets far less oil from iraq than most people seem to think, and there is no way that we could get away with stealing their oil, not with the whole world watching our every move. In the end this will greatly increase the entire world's oil supply, lowering gas prices worldwide, not just in the US.




It doesn't matter where the US gets our own supply from, the point here is that Iraq has the second largest oil reserves in the world. And now, American oil interests are going to be solely responsible for selling all of it to whoever they see fit. This is not us trying to "steal" their oil so we can burn it all ourselves. The oil companies are going to make more money than any of us have the ability to comprehend marking up the oil and selling it. I can't deny that gas prices will probably go down after the war. I guess that's one thing that makes you and me different. I have a serious ethical problem with killing thousands of people to lower the price of gas, you however do not.

Quote:

i really want to understand the point of view of the antiwar protestors, but they don't seem to get the big picture. They seem to base their arguments on these points:
1. Bush is evil. (while i don't totally disagree, this doesn't have anything to do with freeing iraq)
2. No war for oil. (this one is just stupid, see pt3)
3. war is bad. (well, of course it is, but it is sometimes necessary)
4. this will bring more terrorism (so? will doing nothing stop terrorism? in the short term, there may be more terror attacks, but a free, democratic, grateful iraq would be a huge asset in the war on terror, and help show the region that the US really isn't that bad.)




The protesters come from all backgrounds, they are all ages shapes, and sizes. Some are intelligent, some are stupid, some are ex-soldiers, some are there to meet girls, some simply can't think of any other way to react to what they see as a huge injustice. I've heard all of the arguments you mentioned above at protests, sure. I've heard a lot of other arguments from protesters as well. But in reality, that is totally irrelavant. We're talking about a war that is going to cost almost a hundred billion dollars, if not more, and thousands upon thousands of human lives. I for one would say that puts the burden of proof on the people who want to wage the war, not the people who are against it. And the idiot leaders of our country never did put together evidence to meet this burden of proof.

Quote:

n the end, i think the quote sums up my position pretty well, as long as their are evil dictators in the world, they will fund and support terrorism, and Saddam is just #1 on the list right now.




Wow, that's unbelievably deep. Do you make these incredibly insightful quotes up yourself?


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Anonymous

Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: flow]
    #1440282 - 04/08/03 06:13 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

why not try to prove me wrong by giving some sort of evidence that one of my points is wrong. Or is it to hard for you?




Where'd you go? Have you got your little team of monkeys working on your response as I type this or what?

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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: flow]
    #1440303 - 04/08/03 06:21 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


so because they don't live in our country we shouldn't care about the people of iraq? oh, i get it. Let me ask you this. If you're neighbor abuses his kids, but does nothing to you, are you wrong to stop him?




Yet it's ok if America abuses Iraqi's kids. Iraq is not my neighbour, its not America's neighbor either.

Quote:


how about freeing the people who have been living under his boot? That was kind of my point, freeing the iraqi people, by itself is enough justification for this war.




How quickly Americans change their position, when their first position is proven lacking. I never thought of Iraq as an enslaved country, except as a slave to sanctions imposed by the superpowers of the world.

Quote:


see, the whole problem is that UN sanctions would have prevented this as long as saddam led the country. Obviously, no more oil was going to be allowed to leave iraq than UN sanctions permitted as long as the money would go to fund saddam's war machine, therefore, saddam needed to be removed for these oil fields to be repaired, therefore, this war was necessary to allow the entire world access to that oil.




It is about oil, then, according to you! The solution would have been, in this case, to end the sanctions. Sanctions can be removed peacefully.

Quote:


but I'm betting that terrorist attempts will increase.
please explain why.




Terrorists hate America. Now that even more people hate America, because of the invasion of Iraq, there will be an increase in terrorists.

Quote:


how is this an about face? is this war not called "operation iraqi freedom?"
has our gov't not made it clear that the goal of this war is a free, democratic iraq?




What is free about a country occupied by a foreign military? Calling it "operation freedom" doesn't make it so. Talk is cheap; I want results, not catchphrases. Since you are bringing them freedom, America will let Iraq continue using Euros as a reserve currency instead of US dollars? Will they also be able to choose who they will or will not give oil contracts to?

Quote:


yep, until we run out of dictators who suppress their people. think about it though, if we go through these countries one by one, and successfully turn them into democracies, won't that make the whole world a better place? I'm not naive enough to think this will bring about world peace, but can you think of a better way to start than removing evil dictators from power?




If you want world peace, and don't think your strategy will bring about world peace, then why do it?


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom

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Anonymous

Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: flow]
    #1440310 - 04/08/03 06:24 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

i've been around this forum a lot the past couple of weeks, and i still haven't come across a good argument for not going into iraq.

1. it will make us more vulnerable to terrorism.
2. it hurts the economy.
3. it erodes our relations with our allies and the international community.
4. it sets the precedent that for nations to 'pre-emptively strike' eachother is 'ok'.

i've yet to come across a good argument for going into iraq.

1. Saddam needs to be removed and this could not be done peacefully. Even if he is not an immediate threat to the US, only an idiot would say he is not a threat to the stability of the middle east, and the atrocities he's committed against his own people is enough to justify his removal.

why does he need to be removed? saying "only an idiot would say..." is a real shitty debate tactic by the way. atrocities against his own people? by that logic, there's about 20 countries in the world we should be invading BEFORE we even get around to iraq. and hussein is not a threat to middle eastern stability.

2. A US led invasion is the best way to do this to minimize the length of the war, the civilian casualiies, and the coallition casualities.

no, the best way is to not go to war in the first place. this argument doesn't make a case for the war in any way.

3. The entire world, not just the US has an interest in iraqi oil. The US is going to go in and repair the degraded oil fields, then turn them over to the iraqi's. You're naive to think that US oil company's won't profit off of this, but the US gets far less oil from iraq than most people seem to think, and there is no way that we could get away with stealing their oil, not with the whole world watching our every move. In the end this will greatly increase the entire world's oil supply, lowering gas prices worldwide, not just in the US.

the US doesn't want iraqi oil getting sold for euros. the us doesn't want hussien trying to form an arab union. the us doesn't want a leader in iraq who won't sign his nation's sovereignty over to the GATT. it's not just as simple as stealing their oil.

i really want to understand the point of view of the antiwar protestors, but they don't seem to get the big picture.

yes, unfortunately most of them aren't very good at making a compelling argument.

They seem to base their arguments on these points:
1. Bush is evil. (while i don't totally disagree, this doesn't have anything to do with freeing iraq)

yep. they say that alot. doesn't make a strong case.

2. No war for oil. (this one is just stupid, see pt3)

yes, they do oversimplify it and make it out like it's just about stealing oil. it's really more about SECURING oil.  :smirk:

4. this will bring more terrorism (so? will doing nothing stop terrorism? in the short term, there may be more terror attacks, but a free, democratic, grateful iraq would be a huge asset in the war on terror, and help show the region that the US really isn't that bad.)

this it to me is a good reason against the war. this war will increase anti-americanism and terrorist attacks without a doubt. whether a "free, democratic, grateful iraq" will emerge at the end of this is yet to be seen. we shall see.


I am not opposed to all wars. i think that if the government of a soveriegn nation attacks us or our allies, or sets up a truly evil regime, than we indeed should replace that government.

in the case of an attack on us or our allies, the case for war is pretty cut and dry.

attacking another nation in order to free its people from its government however, is a much cloudier issue.

i guess what it all comes down to is, just how bad is saddam's government?

i would argue that he's not nearly as bad as he has been made out to be, and that we're just selectively attacking him for a host of alterior motives. 

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Anonymous

Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: flow]
    #1440363 - 04/08/03 06:39 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

is this war not called "operation iraqi freedom?




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HHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAA
HHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAA
HHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAA
HHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAA
HHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAA
HHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAA
HHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAA
HHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAA
HHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAA
HHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAA
HHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAA
HHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAA
HHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAA
HHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAA
HHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAA
HHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAA

I'm not gonna call you any names, but I'll tell you something you obviously are NOT: smart. That's all.

It's called Operation Iraqi Freedom people! That means it's about freeing the Iraqis and nothing else, obviously!

Oh my God....

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OfflineAngry Mycologist
Spontaneouslycombusting

Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 1,282
Loc: Galapagos
Last seen: 20 years, 9 months
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: flow]
    #1440395 - 04/08/03 06:50 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

A nation should never play the roll of the crusader, for what they advocate is just that, violence used to achieve certain ideals.

A nation does not garner respect in this way, only respect out of fear.


--------------------
The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato

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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1440405 - 04/08/03 06:54 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

It is better to be feared and respected than to be loved.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: z@z.com]
    #1440408 - 04/08/03 06:55 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

It is best to be feared, respected, and loved.  :tongue:


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom

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Anonymous

Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1440409 - 04/08/03 06:55 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

You're talking to a guy who just used as one of his arguments the fact that we dubbed this military action "Operation Iraqi Freedom." He certainly can't grasp the concepts you are trying to get across. I'm still in shock he actually said that, I don't think I've seen anything that stupid posted here before.

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Anonymous

Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: flow]
    #1440422 - 04/08/03 07:02 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

I sense a kind of anger from your posts.

I just want to point out one thing i thought was interesting,
"so because they don't live in our country we shouldn't care about the people of iraq? oh, i get it. Let me ask you this. If you're neighbor abuses his kids, but does nothing to you, are you wrong to stop him?"

If a neighbor abuses his kids, are you allowed to go out, shoot him in the head, then put in another neighbor who won't abuse the kids, but will instead give toys to yours?


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OfflineCryptic
WarpedCndn

Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 598
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 17 years, 2 months
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: flow]
    #1440429 - 04/08/03 07:05 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

And you honestly think that Taking Saddam out will make peace arise within Iraq? There are Fanatical Religous groups, and Tribes that will start a Civil war that will last years and years. There will be MANY civilian Deaths as a result.

And i find it funny.. The united states was instrumental in putting Saddam into power, and now they are trying to erase him from the planet.

the people of the united states are not free, sorry to have to tell you. Look around you, People are being thrown in jail because the color of their skin, put to the 3rd degree because their beliefs differ. And it seems as though anyone that speaks out against the Illegitimate President.. Gets a visit from the secret service.. your country is Filled with fear and Paranoia from a terrorist attack that happend nearly 2 years ago..



--------------------
-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-

While the Trees Grow out of your Skin, Can i plant you so a forest will grow?
"When you want it, it goes away to Fast. Times you hate it always seem to last" - Marilyn Manson

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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: ]
    #1440433 - 04/08/03 07:05 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

You can't go kill them, but you can call the police. If the person baricades themselves in their home and endangers their children the police can shoot them.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineAngry Mycologist
Spontaneouslycombusting

Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 1,282
Loc: Galapagos
Last seen: 20 years, 9 months
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: z@z.com]
    #1440438 - 04/08/03 07:07 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

It is better to be feared and respected than to be loved. 



I personally disagree. 

Respect derived from fear is usually twisted over a certain amount of time to hatred of that same, once respected country.  This leads to the growth of other super-powers because they feel the need to "protect" themselves from this nation. 

These new super-powers will then run a crusade against the older power, bringing it to it's knees, and thus repeating the cycle.

The story of humanity  :smirk: 


--------------------
The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato

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Anonymous

Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: z@z.com]
    #1440439 - 04/08/03 07:07 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

yes, but in this analogy, isn't the UN the police? Well, apparently our citizen has decided to ignore the police+court system and has decided to kill his neighbor

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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: ]
    #1440442 - 04/08/03 07:09 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

The UN is impotent.
If the police decided to leave a person alone and allow them to abuse their children then are they an effective police force? I think not.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Anonymous

Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: z@z.com]
    #1440452 - 04/08/03 07:12 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

You can't go kill them, but you can call the police. If the person baricades themselves in their home and endangers their children the police can shoot them.




Yes but of course some kind of reasonable cause (proof) would have to exist for the police to be showing up (legally) at the house in the first place.

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Anonymous

Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: z@z.com]
    #1440464 - 04/08/03 07:14 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The UN is impotent.




The UN is impotent only when we don't like what it says. If it is backing the USA, the UN is an instrumental tool of world peace whose rulings must be upheld at all costs.

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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: ]
    #1440478 - 04/08/03 07:18 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

The UN doesn't enforce its own resolutions. It never backs up what it says. It is worthless.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: flow]
    #1440510 - 04/08/03 07:25 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

so, why shouldn't we free iraq? i've been around this forum a lot the past couple of weeks, and i still haven't come across a good argument for not going into iraq.
You can and definetly should question bush's motives for this war, to be honest, i don't trust the guy at all, but the end result will be a better world.




How about the US governments history, and the particular history of the men in power now. They make a war on "terrorism", and "evil" which the whole notion of is completely ridiculous. You eliminate the countries harbouring evil, and terrorists now, but in the end they move around always there, out of site. Even if you were to liberate the entire world from terror, and evil, by changing the governments of each country they could move to the US. The ONLY way to prevent this is total enslavement of all citizens, ie: internal passports, special terror arrest rights, etc...Even then people would still fight back. But the bush government has alot to gain from instituting such drastic measures.

My friend, im afraid you do not see the whole picture. This will NOT serve the interests of the world only that of the american government. Justify as you will, but the world is against america in this.

Quote:

in the end, i think the quote sums up my position pretty well, as long as their are evil dictators in the world, they will fund and support terrorism, and Saddam is just #1 on the list right now.




...and once EVERY one of the evil dictators is gone...terrorist will still recieve funding and support. Saddam is #1 cuz he's an easy target....BS he's "a threat" to american security. Also the economic and geographical benefits of the country play absolutely no part in putting the country, top of the "list".


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Anonymous

Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: z@z.com]
    #1440535 - 04/08/03 07:33 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Well, we didn't give them any time to enforce this Iraq one. We pushed the Iraq thing to the forefront of all UN dealings, then we weren't even patient enough to let the inspectors do their job. We had to go NOW! We started the war before the UN even had a chance to enforce it's resolution.

Of course, the UN holds Israel infintely less accountable than that. Really, the UN is only as strong as the countries that make it up. If a member with a lot of clout makes a big deal about something, the UN will pay attention. If no member with a lof of clout says shit, the issue gets ignored.

I'm not saying the UN isn't without problems, you just seem to be missing what the real problems are. The UN gives certain individual nations far too much power. There are really only about a dozen countries in the UN whose opinions count. Not to mention, since it's made up of individual countries, and not an outside body, it can never be completely objective about anything. Those are what I think the problems are with the UN. You however think the problem is that they wouldn't start a war with Iraq before the inspections were finished. Get your head out of your ass. The UN had these problems before this Iraq thing. If that makes them so irrelavant, why did we try to get them to back us?

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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: ]
    #1440571 - 04/08/03 07:46 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Iraq has had ober a decade to comply. The UN and weapons inspectors have also had over a decade.
I have thought the UN was worthless for a long time before we went to war with Iraq. We tried to get UN approval to avoid a big shitstorm.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: z@z.com]
    #1440639 - 04/08/03 08:03 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah I also don't think there was enough time. Resolution 1441 = 6 months old.

http://www.un.int/usa/sres-iraq.htm


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom

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Invisiblesir tripsalot
Administrator

Registered: 07/09/99
Posts: 6,487
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: ]
    #1440653 - 04/08/03 08:06 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Flow?...... OH FLOW!!!!! Whered ya go?


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.

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Offlinemntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation
Male User Gallery

Registered: 07/18/02
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Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1440957 - 04/08/03 09:49 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

They didn't abide by the cease fire 12 years ago and that is enough for me.
Saddam broke that contract and nulified the cease fire. Hence FIRE!


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all

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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: ]
    #1442377 - 04/09/03 09:21 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Unless I have mistaken you for someone else. I thought you were the guy who supported the patriot act.



you are mistaken the patriot act is bs
Quote:

Did he need to be removed? Or did he need to be disarmed? Because up until the week before the war, the US simply wanted him to be disarmed. And who needs him to be removed? The Kurds?



yes, he needed to be removed. everyone knows that disarming iraq was just an excuse to attack, and complete the real goal of taking out saddam.
Quote:

Atrocities committed against one's own people has never been reason enough for any state to go to war.



says who? It should be.
Quote:

There are countless other countries where human rights are walked all over. Why aren't you out screaming for war with China and North Korea? With Iran? Pakistan



china, and north korea are not nearly as easy targets as iraq, we need to start with the easy countries first, and i wouldn't be surprised if iran and pakistan get some serious US attention after the war.
Quote:

If your point is that the US is most capable of waging war, and thus should lead any military action IF it were to take place in Iraq, I agree. This says absolutely nothing to the question of whether ANYONE should be there currently.



that was my point. So you don't think saddam should be removed?
Quote:

guess that's one thing that makes you and me different. I have a serious ethical problem with killing thousands of people to lower the price of gas, you however do not.



but you obviously don't have a serious ethical problem with saddam killing thousands of people to stay in power.
Quote:

Do you make these incredibly insightful quotes up yourself?



yes, my initials are MLK Jr.


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: pattern]
    #1442406 - 04/09/03 09:30 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

How quickly Americans change their position, when their first position is proven lacking.



this has been my position from the start, just because the administration changed its position doesn't mean i did. And just to clarify, I SUPPORT THE WAR, NOT THE ADMINISTRATION. big difference
Quote:

It is about oil, then, according to you! The solution would have been, in this case, to end the sanctions. Sanctions can be removed peacefully.



no, but you have to admit oil is part of the equation. So we should have ended the sanctions, giving saddam huge amounts of resources so he can build a new army? GREAT SOLUTION.
Quote:

Terrorists hate America. Now that even more people hate America, because of the invasion of Iraq, there will be an increase in terrorists



yes, in the short term, more people will hate america, but if we prove that we really went into iraq to free the iraqi people, will that make more people hate america? don't think so.
Quote:

What is free about a country occupied by a foreign military?



it will be democratic, and the occupation won't last that long. Aren't democracies more free than dictatorships?
Quote:

If you want world peace, and don't think your strategy will bring about world peace, then why do it?



i would like world peace, but i don't think it's possible in my lifetime. a stable middle east would be a huge help though, and i think removing the dictators there is the first step.

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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: ]
    #1442437 - 04/09/03 09:41 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

1. it will make us more vulnerable to terrorism.



short term, yes. long term, probably not. How would you go about fighting terrorism? Removing the powerful people who support terrorists is the best start i can think of.
Quote:

2. it hurts the economy.



that's debateable, but this is one of those selfish reasons i was talking about. America's economy can survive.
Quote:

3. it erodes our relations with our allies and the international community.




again, short term, yes. long term, no. At least not if we play our cards right.
Quote:

4. it sets the precedent that for nations to 'pre-emptively strike' eachother is 'ok'.



no, it sets the precedent that it is ok for the US to remove evil dictators.
Quote:

i've yet to come across a good argument for going into iraq.



freeing the iraqi people?
Quote:

atrocities against his own people? by that logic, there's about 20 countries in the world we should be invading BEFORE we even get around to iraq.



yep, at least 20, and as i've said, iraq is just the easiest target, so we should start there.
Quote:

and hussein is not a threat to middle eastern stability.



ask the kuwaiti's what they think about that.
Quote:

whether a "free, democratic, grateful iraq" will emerge at the end of this is yet to be seen. we shall see.



why are you so sure it won't?
Quote:

i would argue that he's not nearly as bad as he has been made out to be,



watch a little too much al-jazeera eh?

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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1442445 - 04/09/03 09:43 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

violence used to achieve certain ideals.



so violence can never be used to acheive peace?
Quote:

A nation does not garner respect in this way, only respect out of fear.



and if we free iraq, and the people there are actually grateful, will we not gain respect?

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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: Cryptic]
    #1442453 - 04/09/03 09:47 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

There are Fanatical Religous groups, and Tribes that will start a Civil war that will last years and years.



iraq is not afghanistan.
Quote:

The united states was instrumental in putting Saddam into power,



learn some fucking history. THE US HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH SADDAM'S RISE TO POWER. i'm really getting sick of having to say that in here.
Quote:

And it seems as though anyone that speaks out against the Illegitimate President.. Gets a visit from the secret service..



you're basing this on what?

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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: ]
    #1442457 - 04/09/03 09:48 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Yes but of course some kind of reasonable cause (proof) would have to exist for the police to be showing up (legally) at the house in the first place.



so there's no proof that saddam has abused his people. You're more ignorant than i thought.

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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: Cryptic]
    #1442465 - 04/09/03 09:51 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

And it seems as though anyone that speaks out against the Illegitimate President.. Gets a visit from the secret service..



Lots of people here speak out against the president. How many of the people here have had a visit from the secret service? My guess is none.
Also he is a legitimate president. Every recount has confirmed this.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1442469 - 04/09/03 09:53 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

You eliminate the countries harbouring evil, and terrorists now, but in the end they move around always there, out of site. Even if you were to liberate the entire world from terror, and evil, by changing the governments of each country they could move to the US.



so your solution is to do nothing? a free, democratic world would have less terrorism, bottom line, this war is a small step toward that.
Quote:

Also the economic and geographical benefits of the country play absolutely no part in putting the country, top of the "list".



what, are you kidding me?

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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
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Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: flow]
    #1442489 - 04/09/03 09:59 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

1. it will make us more vulnerable to terrorism.



short term, yes. long term, probably not. How would you go about fighting terrorism? Removing the powerful people who support terrorists is the best start i can think of.



Terrorism is a clandestine activity, not a government one. Sure, some governments fund terrorism, but there are other ways terrorists can get money(You do realize how rich Bin Laden is, right?)

Quote:

Quote:

2. it hurts the economy.



that's debateable, but this is one of those selfish reasons i was talking about. America's economy can survive.



For a certain amount of time, yes. But our national debt is piling up sky-high. I wonder at what point people will stop lending us money.

Quote:

Quote:

3. it erodes our relations with our allies and the international community.




again, short term, yes. long term, no. At least not if we play our cards right.



And Bush has been playing his cards totally wrong with the international community. Who else could take the sympathy the world had for us on 9/11 and turn it into the seething hatred it has towards us now in such a short amount of time?

Quote:

Quote:

4. it sets the precedent that for nations to 'pre-emptively strike' eachother is 'ok'.



no, it sets the precedent that it is ok for the US to remove evil dictators.



We've already done that plenty of times, but never before as a 'pre-emptive strike.' I can only hope we won't be using any more 'pre-emptive strikes' against other nations. I fear we will.

Quote:

Quote:

i've yet to come across a good argument for going into iraq.



freeing the iraqi people?



"Freeing" is such a vague term it has no meaning. Everyone defines freedom differently.

Quote:

Quote:

atrocities against his own people? by that logic, there's about 20 countries in the world we should be invading BEFORE we even get around to iraq.



yep, at least 20, and as i've said, iraq is just the easiest target, so we should start there.



So do you favor going into all those countries? And if so, would you agree to reinstitute the draft to provide the necessary manpower? Should we really be the world's police?

Quote:

Quote:

and hussein is not a threat to middle eastern stability.



ask the kuwaiti's what they think about that.



They haven't been threatened by Saddam prior to this war since the first Gulf War.

Quote:

Quote:

whether a "free, democratic, grateful iraq" will emerge at the end of this is yet to be seen. we shall see.



why are you so sure it won't?



He didn't say it wouldn't, now did he? I personally am skeptical about whether Iraq could actually sustain a democracy. I hope it does, but if not, we might have another Ayotollah(sp?) on our hands.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: flow]
    #1443485 - 04/09/03 02:53 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

yes, he needed to be removed. everyone knows that disarming iraq was just an excuse to attack, and complete the real goal of taking out saddam.




I agree 100%, the issue was never about ridding Iraq of WMD as the lie went, what we really needed was to install a gov't that would allow US interests to sell the wealth of oil.

Quote:

(Atrocities committed against one's own people has never been reason enough for any state to go to war.)

says who? It should be.




Says the law. Whether you like what Iraq does to its people or not, it is a sovereign nation. I'm sure you understand, as you conservatives are always so quick to point out with regard to the supreme court electing Bush, it's the current laws that count, not whether they make any sense.

Quote:

that was my point. So you don't think saddam should be removed?




That was your point? Your point = if military action in Iraq happens, the US should lead it. How does that support the war? It doesn't even speak as to whether anyone whould be there. In terms of me wanting Saddam out. I would love to see him go, because he is a shithead. However, I realize that dictators like Saddam are a dime a dozen in this world. He's been demonized and made far more important than he is in reality. Saddam is bad, but there's no logical reason he is first on the list to be taken out, except oil. And it is not some urgent thing that WW3 will break out if we don't get him. Like I said, there are leades like him, and worse, all over the world.

Quote:

(guess that's one thing that makes you and me different. I have a serious ethical problem with killing thousands of people to lower the price of gas, you however do not.)

but you obviously don't have a serious ethical problem with saddam killing thousands of people to stay in power.




Whose to say I don't? It's just that I have a serious ethical problem with us killing thousands of people to take him out of power. I'm all for regime change in Iraq, I just don't believe that it's possible to bomb a people into democracy. We're most likely going to install another bad leadership there that will turn on us in the future, just like this one.








Edited by Fiend (04/09/03 02:54 PM)

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Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: silversoul7]
    #1443841 - 04/09/03 04:51 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Sure, some governments fund terrorism, but there are other ways terrorists can get money(You do realize how rich Bin Laden is, right?)




i agree, but are we just supposed to sit and watch these gov'ts do so? why not try and do something about it? and still, the best thing i can think of is removing the leaders who support terrorists. Also, governments don't just give them money, they give them land for camps. Where are terrorists going to set up camps if all the gov'ts of the world are against them? Of course it's not a perfect solution, but there isn't one.
Quote:

For a certain amount of time, yes. But our national debt is piling up sky-high.



yes, and this is a problem, but it shouldn't stop us from trying to make the world a safer place.
Quote:

And Bush has been playing his cards totally wrong with the international community. Who else could take the sympathy the world had for us on 9/11 and turn it into the seething hatred it has towards us now in such a short amount of time?



i agree, bush is a moron, but iraq is a well-developed, well-educated country with huge amounts of resources, we could probably leave them to themselves after taking out saddam and they would be ok. I just really hope GW doesnt fuck this up.
Quote:

So do you favor going into all those countries? And if so, would you agree to reinstitute the draft to provide the necessary manpower?



yes, i do. We could easily take them out one by one, we just need to find excuses like "saddam has not disarmed." We have such a dominant military that we wouldn't need to reinstitute the draft. We could topple a lot of these regimes in weeks.
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Should we really be the world's police?



why not? the world is such a fucked up place right now that the one superpower should try to straighten it out, and protect the innocent victims.
Quote:

They haven't been threatened by Saddam prior to this war since the first Gulf War.



i didn't say that, i said aks them if they think saddam is threat to the middle east. or ask the israelis, or the iranians. Do you really think he wasn't?

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Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: ]
    #1443872 - 04/09/03 05:06 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Says the law. Whether you like what Iraq does to its people or not, it is a sovereign nation. I'm sure you understand, as you conservatives are always so quick to point out with regard to the supreme court electing Bush, it's the current laws that count, not whether they make any sense.



first off, what have i said to make you think i am a conservative? i have to be a conservative to support this war? Also, what law says that? and is the fact that something is illegal make it wrong? to give an extreme example (but not far removed from the iraqi situation) what if hitler didn't invade any other countries, but just started killing all the Jews in germany? should we have let him do that? By your logic (if you can call it that) we should just sit back and watch.
Quote:

However, I realize that dictators like Saddam are a dime a dozen in this world. He's been demonized and made far more important than he is in reality. Saddam is bad, but there's no logical reason he is first on the list to be taken out, except oil. And it is not some urgent thing that WW3 will break out if we don't get him.



there's several logical reasons for him to be first. oil is one, but you should also consider his attempts to build nukes AFTER 1991, the fact that iraq, once liberated, is a good candidate for democracy (probably the best in the mid-east), and iraq is a great stepping stone to iran, syria, pakistan.....
Quote:

Like I said, there are leades like him, and worse, all over the world.



so you're saying we should do nothing about these leaders? We should never try to make the world a better place?
Quote:

We're most likely going to install another bad leadership there that will turn on us in the future, just like this one.



WE DID NOT INSTALL SADDAM. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK LITTLE HEAD. THE US HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS RISE TO POWER. little history for you: saddam attempts assasination of iraqi pres, gets shot, flees to syria. comes back years later, tries again, and succeeds. saddam's cus is named pres, and saddam is head of the secret police. saddam's cus gets sick, gives saddam power. NO US INVOLVEMENT WHATSOEVER.

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Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: flow]
    #1446858 - 04/10/03 01:45 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

so, no one else? I must be right then!

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Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: flow]
    #1446874 - 04/10/03 01:55 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

You eliminate the countries harbouring evil, and terrorists now, but in the end they move around always there, out of site. Even if you were to liberate the entire world from terror, and evil, by changing the governments of each country they could move to the US.



so your solution is to do nothing? a free, democratic world would have less terrorism, bottom line, this war is a small step toward that.




did i say to do nothing? true a free and democratic world would have less terrorism, but understand what im saying: this war is not a "step" towards eliminating terrorism, it is "a fucking huge cliff" that will never be scaled. Even if you topple every regime that comes close to being "evil", terrorists will be there, with a much greater cause in much greater numbers. This war is nothing, its goal impossible, its as stupid and self defeating as a war on drugs.


Quote:

Also the economic and geographical benefits of the country play absolutely no part in putting the country, top of the "list".



what, are you kidding me?




yeah, its called sarcasm... as in the economic and geographical benifits DO play a role in putting iraq at the top of the list, when cleary n.korea is a gretter "terrorist" threat.


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Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1446989 - 04/10/03 02:26 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Even if you topple every regime that comes close to being "evil", terrorists will be there, with a much greater cause in much greater numbers.



why though? if we succeed in taking out these regimes and setting up democracies run by the people, what would the terrorists have to be mad about? I mean obviously there will always be terrorism, but my point is, the average arab will start to see just how wrong it is. Right now the average arab is probably between the two sides, seeing america as an evil power that has fucked up the middle east, but not willing to go kill american civilians just to try and "send a message." If our presence in the middle east is changed from negative to positive, why would terrorist numbers grow?
Quote:

did i say to do nothing?



well, if you disagree with this, then you should be prepared to offer a different solution, otherwise im going to assume your answer is to do nothing.
Quote:

This war is nothing, its goal impossible,



what do you think the goal is? in my opinion the goal is a free and stable middle east, is this impossible?
Quote:

its as stupid and self defeating as a war on drugs.



come on now, i don't think there's anything as stupid and self-defeating as the war on drugs.
Quote:

as in the economic and geographical benifits DO play a role in putting iraq at the top of the list, when cleary n.korea is a gretter "terrorist" threat.



exactly, that's why we started with iraq. also, the people of NK support their leader a lot more than the people of iraq did, the brainwashing there starts at childhood and the people are a lot less educated overall, so it is much more effective. as far as a terrorist threat, im not sure if NK is even a real big terrorist threat.

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Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: flow]
    #1447078 - 04/10/03 02:51 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

Even if you topple every regime that comes close to being "evil", terrorists will be there, with a much greater cause in much greater numbers.



  If our presence in the middle east is changed from negative to positive, why would terrorist numbers grow?




Because you are not peacefully trying to co-exist with these people.  They are a different culture and even think differently.  Most arabs are muslims.  By conquering, and then trying to sway these people to your veiws you do nothing but confirm animosity against your society.  Financial aid, student exchange, foregin envestment, are all good ways to establish ideas in a non welcoming society.  But unforunately this is impossible with a man like saddam, but to forcefully remove him, is almost as bad as doing nothing.

Personnaly i think stability and rule is nescessary to the worlds survival, but to do so without conquering and destroying rights and cultures is impossible.  For a "free" nation to do it is impossible...



Quote:

did i say to do nothing? 



well, if you disagree with this, then you should be prepared to offer a different solution, otherwise im going to assume your answer is to do nothing.




I am not required to think of a solution, but mine would be to establish myself as president of the USA.  Grow such a large amount and variety of drugs, international sales will skyrocket, then once all the other nations are dependant,  cut them off, hold your security (with the military i've invested in with all the sales), and offer them drugs to become a democracy.  :tongue:(not serious)


Quote:

This war is nothing, its goal impossible,



what do you think the goal is? in my opinion the goal is a free and stable middle east, is this impossible?




Well i heard it was something about stopping "terrorism" wich is impossible.  A war to stabalise the middle east? hmmmm, sounds noble! but really it would be to control the middle east, theres no benefit in "stabalising"...lol...or "freeing" for that matter...


Quote:

its as stupid and self defeating as a war on drugs. 



come on now, i don't think there's anything as stupid and self-defeating as the war on drugs.




Im pretty sure wars on "evil" and "terrorism" are on par...mabye there not as self defeating compared to irresolvable...


Quote:

  im not sure if NK is even a real big terrorist threat. 



So is this war about stabalising the middle east or eliminating terrorism?  Cus n.korea is definately your worst nightmare...


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Lest we forget. "

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Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1447111 - 04/10/03 03:03 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

By conquering, and then trying to sway these people to your veiws you do nothing but confirm animosity against your society.



what views are we trying to push on them? democracy? thats about it. it's not like there's going to be a mcdonald's on every corner. I still don't see you're point. If we take out brutal regimes, and replace them with democratic gov'ts formed by the people of those countries, aren't we giving them a great gift?
Quote:

Financial aid, student exchange, foregin envestment, are all good ways to establish ideas in a non welcoming society. But unforunately this is impossible with a man like saddam, but to forcefully remove him, is almost as bad as doing nothing.



exactly, there is no easy solution, and at least you admit that doing nothing is worse, but i don't think you understand just how much worse it is.
Quote:

theres no benefit in "stabalising"...lol...or "freeing" for that matter...



free, stable middle east = great reduction in terrorism. do you still not understand that? that is why the administration still calls this part of the war or terror.
Quote:

So is this war about stabalising the middle east or eliminating terrorism?



both. they're very closely connected.
Quote:

Cus n.korea is definately your worst nightmare...



yep, but its a seperate issue. i don't really think they have much to do with terrorism, but NK is definetely a threat. It's too bad we have to deal with both at the same time.

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Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: flow]
    #1447176 - 04/10/03 03:25 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Okay im tired of disecting points here. Basically you think it would be extremely beneficial to stabalise the middle east....and then other tyrannical nations, in the hopes of establishing a new world order, or democracy right? (if this is not your veiw, make a sumerisation...)


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Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1447209 - 04/10/03 03:31 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Basically you think it would be extremely beneficial to stabalise the middle east....and then other tyrannical nations, in the hopes of establishing a new world order, or democracy right?



yes. and although i don't trust bush, i honestly think he is trying to do a good thing.

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Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: flow]
    #1447223 - 04/10/03 03:35 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

so, why shouldn't we free iraq?




Next will we 'free': Cuba, China, Belarus, Kyrgyzstan, N. Korea, etc., etc., etc.?

Can you imagine the cost in money and lives?

Is it our duty or our right to 'free' a country? I don't believe so. In Serbia they were ruled by a dictator yet they rose up and threw him out of office when he tried to steal the elections. That is how 'regime change' should occur in repressive countries that don't have the ability to elect new leaders; by the people.


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Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: flow]
    #1447243 - 04/10/03 03:40 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

yes.  and although i don't trust bush, i honestly think he is trying to do a good thing.   




Then this is were we agree to disagree.  We cannot argue this point.  It has been a pleasure discussing this with you. and HOLY SHIT! my days almost over! :smile:...time flies when yer having fun.  But for our sake and the worlds i hope your veiw is correct about bushs' intentions. :crazy:


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Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: grib]
    #1447325 - 04/10/03 04:02 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Can you imagine the cost in money and lives?



can you imagine the possible benefits of freeing all these countries? As far as the cost in money, well we already spend ridiculous amounts on the military anyways, why not put it to good use? as far as lives, in the long run we will probably save a lot more. and what of the cost in money and lives if we don't?
Quote:

Is it our duty or our right to 'free' a country? I don't believe so.



no, but america is in a position where we can do something about this. should we just turn our heads to the oppressed people of the world?
Quote:

In Serbia they were ruled by a dictator yet they rose up and threw him out of office when he tried to steal the elections.



yes, but serbia and iraq are completely different. they tried several times to remove saddam and were brutally crushed.
Quote:

That is how 'regime change' should occur in repressive countries that don't have the ability to elect new leaders; by the people.



and if the people can't? obviously the people of iraq couldn't, so why is it bad for the US to help them?

Edited by flow (04/10/03 04:04 PM)

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