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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 7 years, 8 days
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: Cryptic]
    #1442453 - 04/09/03 11:47 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

There are Fanatical Religous groups, and Tribes that will start a Civil war that will last years and years.



iraq is not afghanistan.
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The united states was instrumental in putting Saddam into power,



learn some fucking history. THE US HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH SADDAM'S RISE TO POWER. i'm really getting sick of having to say that in here.
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And it seems as though anyone that speaks out against the Illegitimate President.. Gets a visit from the secret service..



you're basing this on what?


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
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Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: ]
    #1442457 - 04/09/03 11:48 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

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Yes but of course some kind of reasonable cause (proof) would have to exist for the police to be showing up (legally) at the house in the first place.



so there's no proof that saddam has abused his people. You're more ignorant than i thought.


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: Cryptic]
    #1442465 - 04/09/03 11:51 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

And it seems as though anyone that speaks out against the Illegitimate President.. Gets a visit from the secret service..



Lots of people here speak out against the president. How many of the people here have had a visit from the secret service? My guess is none.
Also he is a legitimate president. Every recount has confirmed this.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 7 years, 8 days
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1442469 - 04/09/03 11:53 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

You eliminate the countries harbouring evil, and terrorists now, but in the end they move around always there, out of site. Even if you were to liberate the entire world from terror, and evil, by changing the governments of each country they could move to the US.



so your solution is to do nothing? a free, democratic world would have less terrorism, bottom line, this war is a small step toward that.
Quote:

Also the economic and geographical benefits of the country play absolutely no part in putting the country, top of the "list".



what, are you kidding me?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: flow]
    #1442489 - 04/09/03 11:59 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

1. it will make us more vulnerable to terrorism.



short term, yes. long term, probably not. How would you go about fighting terrorism? Removing the powerful people who support terrorists is the best start i can think of.



Terrorism is a clandestine activity, not a government one. Sure, some governments fund terrorism, but there are other ways terrorists can get money(You do realize how rich Bin Laden is, right?)

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2. it hurts the economy.



that's debateable, but this is one of those selfish reasons i was talking about. America's economy can survive.



For a certain amount of time, yes. But our national debt is piling up sky-high. I wonder at what point people will stop lending us money.

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3. it erodes our relations with our allies and the international community.




again, short term, yes. long term, no. At least not if we play our cards right.



And Bush has been playing his cards totally wrong with the international community. Who else could take the sympathy the world had for us on 9/11 and turn it into the seething hatred it has towards us now in such a short amount of time?

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4. it sets the precedent that for nations to 'pre-emptively strike' eachother is 'ok'.



no, it sets the precedent that it is ok for the US to remove evil dictators.



We've already done that plenty of times, but never before as a 'pre-emptive strike.' I can only hope we won't be using any more 'pre-emptive strikes' against other nations. I fear we will.

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i've yet to come across a good argument for going into iraq.



freeing the iraqi people?



"Freeing" is such a vague term it has no meaning. Everyone defines freedom differently.

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atrocities against his own people? by that logic, there's about 20 countries in the world we should be invading BEFORE we even get around to iraq.



yep, at least 20, and as i've said, iraq is just the easiest target, so we should start there.



So do you favor going into all those countries? And if so, would you agree to reinstitute the draft to provide the necessary manpower? Should we really be the world's police?

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and hussein is not a threat to middle eastern stability.



ask the kuwaiti's what they think about that.



They haven't been threatened by Saddam prior to this war since the first Gulf War.

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whether a "free, democratic, grateful iraq" will emerge at the end of this is yet to be seen. we shall see.



why are you so sure it won't?



He didn't say it wouldn't, now did he? I personally am skeptical about whether Iraq could actually sustain a democracy. I hope it does, but if not, we might have another Ayotollah(sp?) on our hands.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: flow]
    #1443485 - 04/09/03 04:53 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

yes, he needed to be removed. everyone knows that disarming iraq was just an excuse to attack, and complete the real goal of taking out saddam.




I agree 100%, the issue was never about ridding Iraq of WMD as the lie went, what we really needed was to install a gov't that would allow US interests to sell the wealth of oil.

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(Atrocities committed against one's own people has never been reason enough for any state to go to war.)

says who? It should be.




Says the law. Whether you like what Iraq does to its people or not, it is a sovereign nation. I'm sure you understand, as you conservatives are always so quick to point out with regard to the supreme court electing Bush, it's the current laws that count, not whether they make any sense.

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that was my point. So you don't think saddam should be removed?




That was your point? Your point = if military action in Iraq happens, the US should lead it. How does that support the war? It doesn't even speak as to whether anyone whould be there. In terms of me wanting Saddam out. I would love to see him go, because he is a shithead. However, I realize that dictators like Saddam are a dime a dozen in this world. He's been demonized and made far more important than he is in reality. Saddam is bad, but there's no logical reason he is first on the list to be taken out, except oil. And it is not some urgent thing that WW3 will break out if we don't get him. Like I said, there are leades like him, and worse, all over the world.

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(guess that's one thing that makes you and me different. I have a serious ethical problem with killing thousands of people to lower the price of gas, you however do not.)

but you obviously don't have a serious ethical problem with saddam killing thousands of people to stay in power.




Whose to say I don't? It's just that I have a serious ethical problem with us killing thousands of people to take him out of power. I'm all for regime change in Iraq, I just don't believe that it's possible to bomb a people into democracy. We're most likely going to install another bad leadership there that will turn on us in the future, just like this one.









Edited by Fiend (04/09/03 04:54 PM)


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
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Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: silversoul7]
    #1443841 - 04/09/03 06:51 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Sure, some governments fund terrorism, but there are other ways terrorists can get money(You do realize how rich Bin Laden is, right?)




i agree, but are we just supposed to sit and watch these gov'ts do so? why not try and do something about it? and still, the best thing i can think of is removing the leaders who support terrorists. Also, governments don't just give them money, they give them land for camps. Where are terrorists going to set up camps if all the gov'ts of the world are against them? Of course it's not a perfect solution, but there isn't one.
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For a certain amount of time, yes. But our national debt is piling up sky-high.



yes, and this is a problem, but it shouldn't stop us from trying to make the world a safer place.
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And Bush has been playing his cards totally wrong with the international community. Who else could take the sympathy the world had for us on 9/11 and turn it into the seething hatred it has towards us now in such a short amount of time?



i agree, bush is a moron, but iraq is a well-developed, well-educated country with huge amounts of resources, we could probably leave them to themselves after taking out saddam and they would be ok. I just really hope GW doesnt fuck this up.
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So do you favor going into all those countries? And if so, would you agree to reinstitute the draft to provide the necessary manpower?



yes, i do. We could easily take them out one by one, we just need to find excuses like "saddam has not disarmed." We have such a dominant military that we wouldn't need to reinstitute the draft. We could topple a lot of these regimes in weeks.
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Should we really be the world's police?



why not? the world is such a fucked up place right now that the one superpower should try to straighten it out, and protect the innocent victims.
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They haven't been threatened by Saddam prior to this war since the first Gulf War.



i didn't say that, i said aks them if they think saddam is threat to the middle east. or ask the israelis, or the iranians. Do you really think he wasn't?


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 7 years, 8 days
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: ]
    #1443872 - 04/09/03 07:06 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Says the law. Whether you like what Iraq does to its people or not, it is a sovereign nation. I'm sure you understand, as you conservatives are always so quick to point out with regard to the supreme court electing Bush, it's the current laws that count, not whether they make any sense.



first off, what have i said to make you think i am a conservative? i have to be a conservative to support this war? Also, what law says that? and is the fact that something is illegal make it wrong? to give an extreme example (but not far removed from the iraqi situation) what if hitler didn't invade any other countries, but just started killing all the Jews in germany? should we have let him do that? By your logic (if you can call it that) we should just sit back and watch.
Quote:

However, I realize that dictators like Saddam are a dime a dozen in this world. He's been demonized and made far more important than he is in reality. Saddam is bad, but there's no logical reason he is first on the list to be taken out, except oil. And it is not some urgent thing that WW3 will break out if we don't get him.



there's several logical reasons for him to be first. oil is one, but you should also consider his attempts to build nukes AFTER 1991, the fact that iraq, once liberated, is a good candidate for democracy (probably the best in the mid-east), and iraq is a great stepping stone to iran, syria, pakistan.....
Quote:

Like I said, there are leades like him, and worse, all over the world.



so you're saying we should do nothing about these leaders? We should never try to make the world a better place?
Quote:

We're most likely going to install another bad leadership there that will turn on us in the future, just like this one.



WE DID NOT INSTALL SADDAM. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK LITTLE HEAD. THE US HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS RISE TO POWER. little history for you: saddam attempts assasination of iraqi pres, gets shot, flees to syria. comes back years later, tries again, and succeeds. saddam's cus is named pres, and saddam is head of the secret police. saddam's cus gets sick, gives saddam power. NO US INVOLVEMENT WHATSOEVER.


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 7 years, 8 days
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: flow]
    #1446858 - 04/10/03 03:45 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

so, no one else? I must be right then!


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: flow]
    #1446874 - 04/10/03 03:55 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

You eliminate the countries harbouring evil, and terrorists now, but in the end they move around always there, out of site. Even if you were to liberate the entire world from terror, and evil, by changing the governments of each country they could move to the US.



so your solution is to do nothing? a free, democratic world would have less terrorism, bottom line, this war is a small step toward that.




did i say to do nothing? true a free and democratic world would have less terrorism, but understand what im saying: this war is not a "step" towards eliminating terrorism, it is "a fucking huge cliff" that will never be scaled. Even if you topple every regime that comes close to being "evil", terrorists will be there, with a much greater cause in much greater numbers. This war is nothing, its goal impossible, its as stupid and self defeating as a war on drugs.


Quote:

Also the economic and geographical benefits of the country play absolutely no part in putting the country, top of the "list".



what, are you kidding me?




yeah, its called sarcasm... as in the economic and geographical benifits DO play a role in putting iraq at the top of the list, when cleary n.korea is a gretter "terrorist" threat.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 7 years, 8 days
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1446989 - 04/10/03 04:26 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Even if you topple every regime that comes close to being "evil", terrorists will be there, with a much greater cause in much greater numbers.



why though? if we succeed in taking out these regimes and setting up democracies run by the people, what would the terrorists have to be mad about? I mean obviously there will always be terrorism, but my point is, the average arab will start to see just how wrong it is. Right now the average arab is probably between the two sides, seeing america as an evil power that has fucked up the middle east, but not willing to go kill american civilians just to try and "send a message." If our presence in the middle east is changed from negative to positive, why would terrorist numbers grow?
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did i say to do nothing?



well, if you disagree with this, then you should be prepared to offer a different solution, otherwise im going to assume your answer is to do nothing.
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This war is nothing, its goal impossible,



what do you think the goal is? in my opinion the goal is a free and stable middle east, is this impossible?
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its as stupid and self defeating as a war on drugs.



come on now, i don't think there's anything as stupid and self-defeating as the war on drugs.
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as in the economic and geographical benifits DO play a role in putting iraq at the top of the list, when cleary n.korea is a gretter "terrorist" threat.



exactly, that's why we started with iraq. also, the people of NK support their leader a lot more than the people of iraq did, the brainwashing there starts at childhood and the people are a lot less educated overall, so it is much more effective. as far as a terrorist threat, im not sure if NK is even a real big terrorist threat.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: flow]
    #1447078 - 04/10/03 04:51 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

Even if you topple every regime that comes close to being "evil", terrorists will be there, with a much greater cause in much greater numbers.



  If our presence in the middle east is changed from negative to positive, why would terrorist numbers grow?




Because you are not peacefully trying to co-exist with these people.  They are a different culture and even think differently.  Most arabs are muslims.  By conquering, and then trying to sway these people to your veiws you do nothing but confirm animosity against your society.  Financial aid, student exchange, foregin envestment, are all good ways to establish ideas in a non welcoming society.  But unforunately this is impossible with a man like saddam, but to forcefully remove him, is almost as bad as doing nothing.

Personnaly i think stability and rule is nescessary to the worlds survival, but to do so without conquering and destroying rights and cultures is impossible.  For a "free" nation to do it is impossible...



Quote:

did i say to do nothing? 



well, if you disagree with this, then you should be prepared to offer a different solution, otherwise im going to assume your answer is to do nothing.




I am not required to think of a solution, but mine would be to establish myself as president of the USA.  Grow such a large amount and variety of drugs, international sales will skyrocket, then once all the other nations are dependant,  cut them off, hold your security (with the military i've invested in with all the sales), and offer them drugs to become a democracy.  :tongue:(not serious)


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This war is nothing, its goal impossible,



what do you think the goal is? in my opinion the goal is a free and stable middle east, is this impossible?




Well i heard it was something about stopping "terrorism" wich is impossible.  A war to stabalise the middle east? hmmmm, sounds noble! but really it would be to control the middle east, theres no benefit in "stabalising"...lol...or "freeing" for that matter...


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its as stupid and self defeating as a war on drugs. 



come on now, i don't think there's anything as stupid and self-defeating as the war on drugs.




Im pretty sure wars on "evil" and "terrorism" are on par...mabye there not as self defeating compared to irresolvable...


Quote:

  im not sure if NK is even a real big terrorist threat. 



So is this war about stabalising the middle east or eliminating terrorism?  Cus n.korea is definately your worst nightmare...


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 7 years, 8 days
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1447111 - 04/10/03 05:03 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

By conquering, and then trying to sway these people to your veiws you do nothing but confirm animosity against your society.



what views are we trying to push on them? democracy? thats about it. it's not like there's going to be a mcdonald's on every corner. I still don't see you're point. If we take out brutal regimes, and replace them with democratic gov'ts formed by the people of those countries, aren't we giving them a great gift?
Quote:

Financial aid, student exchange, foregin envestment, are all good ways to establish ideas in a non welcoming society. But unforunately this is impossible with a man like saddam, but to forcefully remove him, is almost as bad as doing nothing.



exactly, there is no easy solution, and at least you admit that doing nothing is worse, but i don't think you understand just how much worse it is.
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theres no benefit in "stabalising"...lol...or "freeing" for that matter...



free, stable middle east = great reduction in terrorism. do you still not understand that? that is why the administration still calls this part of the war or terror.
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So is this war about stabalising the middle east or eliminating terrorism?



both. they're very closely connected.
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Cus n.korea is definately your worst nightmare...



yep, but its a seperate issue. i don't really think they have much to do with terrorism, but NK is definetely a threat. It's too bad we have to deal with both at the same time.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: flow]
    #1447176 - 04/10/03 05:25 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Okay im tired of disecting points here. Basically you think it would be extremely beneficial to stabalise the middle east....and then other tyrannical nations, in the hopes of establishing a new world order, or democracy right? (if this is not your veiw, make a sumerisation...)


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
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Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1447209 - 04/10/03 05:31 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Basically you think it would be extremely beneficial to stabalise the middle east....and then other tyrannical nations, in the hopes of establishing a new world order, or democracy right?



yes. and although i don't trust bush, i honestly think he is trying to do a good thing.


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Offlinegrib
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Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: flow]
    #1447223 - 04/10/03 05:35 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

so, why shouldn't we free iraq?




Next will we 'free': Cuba, China, Belarus, Kyrgyzstan, N. Korea, etc., etc., etc.?

Can you imagine the cost in money and lives?

Is it our duty or our right to 'free' a country? I don't believe so. In Serbia they were ruled by a dictator yet they rose up and threw him out of office when he tried to steal the elections. That is how 'regime change' should occur in repressive countries that don't have the ability to elect new leaders; by the people.


--------------------
<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: flow]
    #1447243 - 04/10/03 05:40 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

yes.  and although i don't trust bush, i honestly think he is trying to do a good thing.   




Then this is were we agree to disagree.  We cannot argue this point.  It has been a pleasure discussing this with you. and HOLY SHIT! my days almost over! :smile:...time flies when yer having fun.  But for our sake and the worlds i hope your veiw is correct about bushs' intentions. :crazy:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
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Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: grib]
    #1447325 - 04/10/03 06:02 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Can you imagine the cost in money and lives?



can you imagine the possible benefits of freeing all these countries? As far as the cost in money, well we already spend ridiculous amounts on the military anyways, why not put it to good use? as far as lives, in the long run we will probably save a lot more. and what of the cost in money and lives if we don't?
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Is it our duty or our right to 'free' a country? I don't believe so.



no, but america is in a position where we can do something about this. should we just turn our heads to the oppressed people of the world?
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In Serbia they were ruled by a dictator yet they rose up and threw him out of office when he tried to steal the elections.



yes, but serbia and iraq are completely different. they tried several times to remove saddam and were brutally crushed.
Quote:

That is how 'regime change' should occur in repressive countries that don't have the ability to elect new leaders; by the people.



and if the people can't? obviously the people of iraq couldn't, so why is it bad for the US to help them?


Edited by flow (04/10/03 06:04 PM)


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