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Anonymous

Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1440409 - 04/08/03 08:55 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

You're talking to a guy who just used as one of his arguments the fact that we dubbed this military action "Operation Iraqi Freedom." He certainly can't grasp the concepts you are trying to get across. I'm still in shock he actually said that, I don't think I've seen anything that stupid posted here before.


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Anonymous

Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: flow]
    #1440422 - 04/08/03 09:02 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I sense a kind of anger from your posts.

I just want to point out one thing i thought was interesting,
"so because they don't live in our country we shouldn't care about the people of iraq? oh, i get it. Let me ask you this. If you're neighbor abuses his kids, but does nothing to you, are you wrong to stop him?"

If a neighbor abuses his kids, are you allowed to go out, shoot him in the head, then put in another neighbor who won't abuse the kids, but will instead give toys to yours?



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OfflineCryptic
WarpedCndn

Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 598
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: flow]
    #1440429 - 04/08/03 09:05 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

And you honestly think that Taking Saddam out will make peace arise within Iraq? There are Fanatical Religous groups, and Tribes that will start a Civil war that will last years and years. There will be MANY civilian Deaths as a result.

And i find it funny.. The united states was instrumental in putting Saddam into power, and now they are trying to erase him from the planet.

the people of the united states are not free, sorry to have to tell you. Look around you, People are being thrown in jail because the color of their skin, put to the 3rd degree because their beliefs differ. And it seems as though anyone that speaks out against the Illegitimate President.. Gets a visit from the secret service.. your country is Filled with fear and Paranoia from a terrorist attack that happend nearly 2 years ago..



--------------------
-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-

While the Trees Grow out of your Skin, Can i plant you so a forest will grow?
"When you want it, it goes away to Fast. Times you hate it always seem to last" - Marilyn Manson


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: ]
    #1440433 - 04/08/03 09:05 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

You can't go kill them, but you can call the police. If the person baricades themselves in their home and endangers their children the police can shoot them.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineAngry Mycologist
Spontaneouslycombusting

Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 1,282
Loc: Galapagos
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: z@z.com]
    #1440438 - 04/08/03 09:07 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

It is better to be feared and respected than to be loved. 



I personally disagree. 

Respect derived from fear is usually twisted over a certain amount of time to hatred of that same, once respected country.  This leads to the growth of other super-powers because they feel the need to "protect" themselves from this nation. 

These new super-powers will then run a crusade against the older power, bringing it to it's knees, and thus repeating the cycle.

The story of humanity  :smirk: 


--------------------
The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato


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Anonymous

Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: z@z.com]
    #1440439 - 04/08/03 09:07 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

yes, but in this analogy, isn't the UN the police? Well, apparently our citizen has decided to ignore the police+court system and has decided to kill his neighbor


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: ]
    #1440442 - 04/08/03 09:09 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The UN is impotent.
If the police decided to leave a person alone and allow them to abuse their children then are they an effective police force? I think not.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: z@z.com]
    #1440452 - 04/08/03 09:12 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

You can't go kill them, but you can call the police. If the person baricades themselves in their home and endangers their children the police can shoot them.




Yes but of course some kind of reasonable cause (proof) would have to exist for the police to be showing up (legally) at the house in the first place.


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Anonymous

Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: z@z.com]
    #1440464 - 04/08/03 09:14 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The UN is impotent.




The UN is impotent only when we don't like what it says. If it is backing the USA, the UN is an instrumental tool of world peace whose rulings must be upheld at all costs.


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: ]
    #1440478 - 04/08/03 09:18 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The UN doesn't enforce its own resolutions. It never backs up what it says. It is worthless.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 17 years, 24 days
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: flow]
    #1440510 - 04/08/03 09:25 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

so, why shouldn't we free iraq? i've been around this forum a lot the past couple of weeks, and i still haven't come across a good argument for not going into iraq.
You can and definetly should question bush's motives for this war, to be honest, i don't trust the guy at all, but the end result will be a better world.




How about the US governments history, and the particular history of the men in power now. They make a war on "terrorism", and "evil" which the whole notion of is completely ridiculous. You eliminate the countries harbouring evil, and terrorists now, but in the end they move around always there, out of site. Even if you were to liberate the entire world from terror, and evil, by changing the governments of each country they could move to the US. The ONLY way to prevent this is total enslavement of all citizens, ie: internal passports, special terror arrest rights, etc...Even then people would still fight back. But the bush government has alot to gain from instituting such drastic measures.

My friend, im afraid you do not see the whole picture. This will NOT serve the interests of the world only that of the american government. Justify as you will, but the world is against america in this.

Quote:

in the end, i think the quote sums up my position pretty well, as long as their are evil dictators in the world, they will fund and support terrorism, and Saddam is just #1 on the list right now.




...and once EVERY one of the evil dictators is gone...terrorist will still recieve funding and support. Saddam is #1 cuz he's an easy target....BS he's "a threat" to american security. Also the economic and geographical benefits of the country play absolutely no part in putting the country, top of the "list".


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Anonymous

Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: z@z.com]
    #1440535 - 04/08/03 09:33 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Well, we didn't give them any time to enforce this Iraq one. We pushed the Iraq thing to the forefront of all UN dealings, then we weren't even patient enough to let the inspectors do their job. We had to go NOW! We started the war before the UN even had a chance to enforce it's resolution.

Of course, the UN holds Israel infintely less accountable than that. Really, the UN is only as strong as the countries that make it up. If a member with a lot of clout makes a big deal about something, the UN will pay attention. If no member with a lof of clout says shit, the issue gets ignored.

I'm not saying the UN isn't without problems, you just seem to be missing what the real problems are. The UN gives certain individual nations far too much power. There are really only about a dozen countries in the UN whose opinions count. Not to mention, since it's made up of individual countries, and not an outside body, it can never be completely objective about anything. Those are what I think the problems are with the UN. You however think the problem is that they wouldn't start a war with Iraq before the inspections were finished. Get your head out of your ass. The UN had these problems before this Iraq thing. If that makes them so irrelavant, why did we try to get them to back us?


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: ]
    #1440571 - 04/08/03 09:46 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Iraq has had ober a decade to comply. The UN and weapons inspectors have also had over a decade.
I have thought the UN was worthless for a long time before we went to war with Iraq. We tried to get UN approval to avoid a big shitstorm.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: z@z.com]
    #1440639 - 04/08/03 10:03 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah I also don't think there was enough time. Resolution 1441 = 6 months old.

http://www.un.int/usa/sres-iraq.htm


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
Administrator

Registered: 07/10/99
Posts: 6,487
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: ]
    #1440653 - 04/08/03 10:06 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Flow?...... OH FLOW!!!!! Whered ya go?


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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Offlinemntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation
Male User Gallery

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 3,937
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1440957 - 04/08/03 11:49 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

They didn't abide by the cease fire 12 years ago and that is enough for me.
Saddam broke that contract and nulified the cease fire. Hence FIRE!


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 7 years, 12 days
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.... [Re: ]
    #1442377 - 04/09/03 11:21 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Unless I have mistaken you for someone else. I thought you were the guy who supported the patriot act.



you are mistaken the patriot act is bs
Quote:

Did he need to be removed? Or did he need to be disarmed? Because up until the week before the war, the US simply wanted him to be disarmed. And who needs him to be removed? The Kurds?



yes, he needed to be removed. everyone knows that disarming iraq was just an excuse to attack, and complete the real goal of taking out saddam.
Quote:

Atrocities committed against one's own people has never been reason enough for any state to go to war.



says who? It should be.
Quote:

There are countless other countries where human rights are walked all over. Why aren't you out screaming for war with China and North Korea? With Iran? Pakistan



china, and north korea are not nearly as easy targets as iraq, we need to start with the easy countries first, and i wouldn't be surprised if iran and pakistan get some serious US attention after the war.
Quote:

If your point is that the US is most capable of waging war, and thus should lead any military action IF it were to take place in Iraq, I agree. This says absolutely nothing to the question of whether ANYONE should be there currently.



that was my point. So you don't think saddam should be removed?
Quote:

guess that's one thing that makes you and me different. I have a serious ethical problem with killing thousands of people to lower the price of gas, you however do not.



but you obviously don't have a serious ethical problem with saddam killing thousands of people to stay in power.
Quote:

Do you make these incredibly insightful quotes up yourself?



yes, my initials are MLK Jr.



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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 7 years, 12 days
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: pattern]
    #1442406 - 04/09/03 11:30 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

How quickly Americans change their position, when their first position is proven lacking.



this has been my position from the start, just because the administration changed its position doesn't mean i did. And just to clarify, I SUPPORT THE WAR, NOT THE ADMINISTRATION. big difference
Quote:

It is about oil, then, according to you! The solution would have been, in this case, to end the sanctions. Sanctions can be removed peacefully.



no, but you have to admit oil is part of the equation. So we should have ended the sanctions, giving saddam huge amounts of resources so he can build a new army? GREAT SOLUTION.
Quote:

Terrorists hate America. Now that even more people hate America, because of the invasion of Iraq, there will be an increase in terrorists



yes, in the short term, more people will hate america, but if we prove that we really went into iraq to free the iraqi people, will that make more people hate america? don't think so.
Quote:

What is free about a country occupied by a foreign military?



it will be democratic, and the occupation won't last that long. Aren't democracies more free than dictatorships?
Quote:

If you want world peace, and don't think your strategy will bring about world peace, then why do it?



i would like world peace, but i don't think it's possible in my lifetime. a stable middle east would be a huge help though, and i think removing the dictators there is the first step.


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 7 years, 12 days
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: ]
    #1442437 - 04/09/03 11:41 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

1. it will make us more vulnerable to terrorism.



short term, yes. long term, probably not. How would you go about fighting terrorism? Removing the powerful people who support terrorists is the best start i can think of.
Quote:

2. it hurts the economy.



that's debateable, but this is one of those selfish reasons i was talking about. America's economy can survive.
Quote:

3. it erodes our relations with our allies and the international community.




again, short term, yes. long term, no. At least not if we play our cards right.
Quote:

4. it sets the precedent that for nations to 'pre-emptively strike' eachother is 'ok'.



no, it sets the precedent that it is ok for the US to remove evil dictators.
Quote:

i've yet to come across a good argument for going into iraq.



freeing the iraqi people?
Quote:

atrocities against his own people? by that logic, there's about 20 countries in the world we should be invading BEFORE we even get around to iraq.



yep, at least 20, and as i've said, iraq is just the easiest target, so we should start there.
Quote:

and hussein is not a threat to middle eastern stability.



ask the kuwaiti's what they think about that.
Quote:

whether a "free, democratic, grateful iraq" will emerge at the end of this is yet to be seen. we shall see.



why are you so sure it won't?
Quote:

i would argue that he's not nearly as bad as he has been made out to be,



watch a little too much al-jazeera eh?


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 7 years, 12 days
Re: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere...... [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1442445 - 04/09/03 11:43 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

violence used to achieve certain ideals.



so violence can never be used to acheive peace?
Quote:

A nation does not garner respect in this way, only respect out of fear.



and if we free iraq, and the people there are actually grateful, will we not gain respect?


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