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InvisibleDeadHearts


Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 21,827
Loc: MICHIGAN
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14399444 - 05/04/11 11:18 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I think thats the first time I have seen you say "we shouldnt be over there and
that its bullshit"

But you seem to defend the governments actions all the time.

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InvisibleSamuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker
Male

Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 8,395
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: DeadHearts]
    #14399452 - 05/04/11 11:19 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DeadHearts said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

DeadHearts said:

And pris I really do not understand how you cannot see where so many of
us are coming from. You refuse to find common ground in any argument on
any topic that is not in line with youre very own beliefs.




how can I see what I am not shown, someone makes a claim and refuses to back
it up, another makes a claim and fails to provide proof, I'm discussing
facts, you guys are tossing out opinion, why can you not find the common
ground, why can you not see it my way, why must I be the one to bend and
accpt your opinion as fact when you reject fact I present?





I didnt say you should accept my or anyone elses opinion. I just want you to
find common ground with us sometimes.

In a time of financial distress we spend trillion on defense and war that directly
or indirectly is killing thousands upon thousands of people. And what good is it
really doing for anyone? Keep the US from being attacked?

I mean these are not claims in which I should have to propose any kind of "evidence"
to understand where I and many others come from.





as many good points as you make, he makes. yet you find no common ground with him.

ive never seen "the opposing argument" in this conversation say "you know what prisoner, that sounds damn logical, i see where you are coming from".

why should he say that to you?


--------------------


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
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Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: Humility]
    #14399469 - 05/04/11 11:25 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Humility said:
Pris and Sam and a lot of other people truly don't believe in personal responsibility.

You people have repeatedly typed that if person A shoots and kills person B instead of his target, person C that person C is RESPONSIBLE for the shooting of person B.





give me a simple straight forward answer to this question



if the bank robbery wasnt occurring would the cops bad aim have killed the bank customer?


Quote:

Logically you're talking ridiculous.  If I shoot a kid in the face but meant to shoot the guy that's holding him hostage I am what is termed "Directly responsible" for that person's death.




if the hostage taker hadnt taken the hostage then there would have been no
need to use a weapon. could the hostage taker have killed not just the kid
but you and others as well? you seem to want to blame the cop for the
actions of the robber that directly resulted in the deaths of innocents

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InvisibleDeadHearts


Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 21,827
Loc: MICHIGAN
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: Samuel L Jackson]
    #14399478 - 05/04/11 11:26 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I have to leave for work. Ill try to keep it short.

All he seems to do is defend what is going on over there in one way or
another. Like I said I never seen him until now say this war is bullshit.

Or maybe I usually disagree with him so much I write of what he says immediately.

Ill try harder.

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InvisibleDeadHearts


Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 21,827
Loc: MICHIGAN
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: DeadHearts]
    #14399479 - 05/04/11 11:26 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Im outta here.

Have a good day shroomery!

:aweoverdose:

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InvisibleDeadHearts


Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 21,827
Loc: MICHIGAN
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: DeadHearts]
    #14399491 - 05/04/11 11:31 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

One more thing before I go.



OBAMA stated he will not release the death photos.

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OfflineKada
Asha'man
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Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 12,394
Loc: Buckeye Flag
Last seen: 3 days, 15 hours
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14399494 - 05/04/11 11:31 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Humility said:
Pris and Sam and a lot of other people truly don't believe in personal responsibility.

You people have repeatedly typed that if person A shoots and kills person B instead of his target, person C that person C is RESPONSIBLE for the shooting of person B.





give me a simple straight forward answer to this question



if the bank robbery wasnt occurring would the cops bad aim have killed the bank customer?


Quote:

Logically you're talking ridiculous.  If I shoot a kid in the face but meant to shoot the guy that's holding him hostage I am what is termed "Directly responsible" for that person's death.




if the hostage taker hadnt taken the hostage then there would have been no
need to use a weapon. could the hostage taker have killed not just the kid
but you and others as well? you seem to want to blame the cop for the
actions of the robber that directly resulted in the deaths of innocents



Nothing is as cut and dry as that.

The cop isn't necessarily the good guy. What if the reason the hostage taker took a hostage in the first place was because the cop did something horrible on a power trip that ended in the death of his friend and the cop got away with it because he was a cop?

What if the cop was gunning after him next and he took a hostage because he felt it was the only way.

Not the best explanation of a pretend scenario but you get what I mean.

No one is right and everyone loses because the cop was an asshole and abused his power.



--------------------
~The Cultivators Motherload~

"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them.
I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." -Robert A. Heinlein

"There is no need for temples, no need for complicated philosophies.
My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness."-Dalai Lama

Live long and prosper.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
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Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: Kada]
    #14399532 - 05/04/11 11:41 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kada said:

Nothing is as cut and dry as that.

The cop isn't necessarily the good guy. What if the reason the hostage taker took a hostage in the first place was because the cop did something horrible on a power trip that ended in the death of his friend and the cop got away with it because he was a cop?

What if the cop was gunning after him next and he took a hostage because he felt it was the only way.

Not the best explanation of a pretend scenario but you get what I mean.

No one is right and everyone loses because the cop was an asshole and abused his power.







great... multiple strawman attack, no one can defend against that :facepalm:

it's a simple scenario so please, try and give an answer

if someone robs a bank and a cop shoots a bank customer while attempting
to shoot you, would it be the robber's fault or the cop's that the
customer was shot?

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: DeadHearts]
    #14399539 - 05/04/11 11:42 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DeadHearts said:
One more thing before I go.



OBAMA stated he will not release the death photos.




Good.  The death photos are irrelevant.

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InvisibleSleepwalker
Overshoes


Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14399574 - 05/04/11 11:49 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:if someone robs a bank and a cop shoots a bank customer while attempting
to shoot you, would it be the robber's fault or the cop's that the
customer was shot?




They both contributed to the death.  "Fault" is kind of a faulty concept here. 
It was the robber's fault that the cop was called at all, and his fault that it ended up being a violent day at the bank.
It was the cop's fault that the bullet entered the wrong body.
Chances are neither of them wanted that person to die. :shrug: 

The blame lies wherever you arbitrarily decide to lay it down.

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OfflineKada
Asha'man
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 12,394
Loc: Buckeye Flag
Last seen: 3 days, 15 hours
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14399578 - 05/04/11 11:50 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Your scenario isn't any more valid than mine. NOTHING is cut and dry like that, ESPECIALLY war.


--------------------
~The Cultivators Motherload~

"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them.
I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." -Robert A. Heinlein

"There is no need for temples, no need for complicated philosophies.
My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness."-Dalai Lama

Live long and prosper.


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OfflineHumility
Working on it
 User Gallery


Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 6,745
Last seen: 7 years, 11 days
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14399582 - 05/04/11 11:51 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Humility said:
Pris and Sam and a lot of other people truly don't believe in personal responsibility.

You people have repeatedly typed that if person A shoots and kills person B instead of his target, person C that person C is RESPONSIBLE for the shooting of person B.





give me a simple straight forward answer to this question



if the bank robbery wasnt occurring would the cops bad aim have killed the bank customer?


Quote:

Logically you're talking ridiculous.  If I shoot a kid in the face but meant to shoot the guy that's holding him hostage I am what is termed "Directly responsible" for that person's death.




if the hostage taker hadnt taken the hostage then there would have been no
need to use a weapon. could the hostage taker have killed not just the kid
but you and others as well? you seem to want to blame the cop for the
actions of the robber that directly resulted in the deaths of innocents





You are trying to retroactively apply triggers of impetus and it just doesn't work that way man.  The "butterfly effect" cannot be calculated and that's what you're trying to do, logically quantify it.

A cop shooting someone in a bank happens INSIDE OF the scenario/event of a bank robbery taking place, yes.  This shooting may not have occurred if the event the shooting took place within (the robbery) did not occur.  I agree with this.  That said, any and every decision an individual makes (even the errors) must, at the end of the day, lie with that individual.

This is where we fundamentally disagree.

Moving to the opposite end of the scale, why don't the cops just blow up the whole building and blame it on the bank robber?  Chances of apprehension increase to near 100% and of course it wouldn't be the police's fault because THEY didn't blow up the bank, the bank robber CAUSED THE BANK TO BE BLOWN UP.

If the bank robber's mother had never given birth to him he wouldn't be robbing a bank.  Not only is the bank robber responsible, but she's responsible as well, as are all of the events and situations that caused her to give birth to him and so on.  This is not a tenable method of dealing with this thought problem.

I UNDERSTAND what you're saying Pris, it's an easy concept to grasp.  The problem we're having here is you think that you're making some kind of legitimate argument when the logical path you're following literally has no terminal point.

You can conjure up myriad, even infinite causes for "why" an event took place when reaching back into history.  If the bank robber hadn't robbed the bank the cop may not have shot anyone yes.  This is however explication, and not causation.

You're trying to say that when some people make decisions, that other people have no choice but to react in certain fashions, and that when mistakes occur, the one responsible is the one YOU judge is responsible and not the doer of the action.

That's ludicrous.  You're trying to make yourself feel better about wanting to shirk the responsibility of being a big man with a big gun.  Big men with guns have to make important decisions and accept the responsibility for them.  You seem content to wave away the responsibility and blame events on circumstance or some other individuals actions, neglecting the fact that you, at any time in this world are free to behave in any manner that you choose, regardless of ANYTHING that's happening around you (excepting physical impossibilities).


You aren't an object Pris.  There are no objects.  There are infinite decisions for every situation and you're responsible for whichever one you choose.


--------------------

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OfflinePreparationH
apply daily


Registered: 03/28/05
Posts: 18,335
Loc: Amsterdam
Last seen: 11 hours, 14 minutes
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: Humility]
    #14399586 - 05/04/11 11:53 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If a cop kills someone accidentally during a bank robbery, the robber should get first degree murder.



If I am killed inside a bank during a robbery and I get blasted by an officer... the robber better go to prison for my death.

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: PreparationH] * 1
    #14399598 - 05/04/11 11:55 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

PreparationH said:
If a cop kills someone accidentally during a bank robbery, the robber should get first degree murder.



If I am killed inside a bank during a robbery and I get blasted by an officer... the robber better go to prison for my death.




Wow, thats some bullshit.  Im sure glad you are not in charge of our legal system.

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InvisibleDeadHearts


Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 21,827
Loc: MICHIGAN
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: DieCommie]
    #14399606 - 05/04/11 11:57 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

PreparationH said:
If a cop kills someone accidentally during a bank robbery, the robber should get first degree murder.



If I am killed inside a bank during a robbery and I get blasted by an officer... the robber better go to prison for my death.




Wow, thats some bullshit.  Im sure glad you are not in charge of our legal system.





yeah no shit lol. thats the most ass backwards thinking I have seen in a long time.

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OfflinePreparationH
apply daily


Registered: 03/28/05
Posts: 18,335
Loc: Amsterdam
Last seen: 11 hours, 14 minutes
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: DeadHearts] * 1
    #14399616 - 05/04/11 12:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

How so?  If the robber didn't rob the bank the police would've never been called, I wouldn't be dead.  The robber is the lynch pin and I the innocent bystander.  The officer would live a life of knowing he killed an innocent man, punishment enough for an accidental death.  The thief who started the show should be held accountable for my death, not the officer.

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OfflineHumility
Working on it
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Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 6,745
Last seen: 7 years, 11 days
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: DieCommie]
    #14399622 - 05/04/11 12:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

OH wow look someone else understands personal responsibility and is aghast at the notion of a cop shooting someone in the face and a bank robber going to jail for murder.

Lol, are you guys even serious?  How do you even take yourselves seriously?


--------------------

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OfflineHumility
Working on it
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Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 6,745
Last seen: 7 years, 11 days
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: PreparationH]
    #14399626 - 05/04/11 12:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

PreparationH said:
How so?  If the robber didn't rob the bank the police would've never been called, I wouldn't be dead.  The robber is the lynch pin and I the innocent bystander.  The officer would live a life of knowing he killed an innocent man, punishment enough for an accidental death.  The thief who started the show should be held accountable for my death, not the officer.





Read my post and educate yourself.

Because what you're talking is logically fallacious.  Period.


--------------------

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #14399629 - 05/04/11 12:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Oweyervishice said:

It was the robber's fault that the cop was called at all




so what you're saying is that if the robber hadnt shown up the cops wouldnt
have had to have been called, had the cops not shown up in response to the
call then the bank customer could  have gone home to see her family because
it was just another day at the bank

Quote:

and his fault that it ended up being a violent day at the bank.





yes... I thought that's what you were saying

Quote:

It was the cop's fault that the bullet entered the wrong body.
Chances are neither of them wanted that person to die.





then I discovered it's not, that you've blamed the cops because someone
decided to rob a bank even though had that bank robber not been there the
cops never would have had to respond to the call because it never would
have been made and an innocent persn would still be alive

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Has the whole world gone mad?! Pub poll reality check. [Re: PreparationH]
    #14399632 - 05/04/11 12:05 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

PreparationH said:
How so?  If the robber didn't rob the bank the police would've never been called, I wouldn't be dead.  The robber is the lynch pin and I the innocent bystander.  The officer would live a life of knowing he killed an innocent man, punishment enough for an accidental death.  The thief who started the show should be held accountable for my death, not the officer.




If you didnt go to the bank, then you wouldnt have been at the bank to get shot.  You are the lynch pin, its your own fault, and you get killed because of it.  But, if your boss didnt give you a paycheck then you wouldnt be at the bank... then should your boss go to prison? 

The person who pulls the trigger and orders the pulling of the trigger is responsible.  Its the cops fault, and the cops fault alone.

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