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Cubensis or Mexicana?
    #1439756 -

I'm planning my second trip with a friend of mine next week and I'll be getting my hands on 20 grams of either Cubensis or Mexicana, I've already taken Cubensis on one occasion and now I have this second variety available to me

I've had a search but I've not found anything on the direct comparison of these two types. (But I'll bet this has been tackled elsewhere)

I know they vary from one batch to the next, but what I'm getting at is basically which one is usually the more potent if either?

Cheers for any help.
Big Jack

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Big_Jack]
    #1439773 -

isn't Mexicana a type of cube?


--------------------
~~SBM~~

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: ScumBagMaximum]
    #1439792 -

Don't know that one but there is a difference between one and the other (according to the FAQ) which says Mexicana is smaller than it's brother and yet the dosages are the same, so perhaps Mex may be the one.

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Big_Jack]
    #1439797 -

The dosages are the same because they're measured in weight.

I'm thinking the mexicana is the sclerotia forming species? I forget. I'd go with either, theyre probably very similar in potency. (if they werent people would likely grow mexicana over cubensis more often)

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Big_Jack]
    #1439887 -

isn't Mexicana a type of cube?

Yes and no.  There is a race of P. Cubensis - Mexicana, but there is also a species called P. Mexicana.  Gotta love the confusion created there... :smile:

The dosages are the same because they're measured in weight.

Better be careful with that logic.  What matters is the percent of active alkaloids per weight of fruit body.  Different species produce magic in different ratios.

I don't have my references handy for the percentage in P. Mexicana vs P. Cubensis, but I think P. Mexicana is stronger.  It has been a long time, and I could be mistaken here...

I'm thinking the mexicana is the sclerotia forming species?

It is.  You are much more likely to see stones than fruit from P. Mexicana because the bioefficency is so much greater.  The fruit from P. Mexicana is much smaller than P. Cubensis.  The mycelium also looks a lot different.  P. Mexicana mycelium is white and fluffy at the edges, but has an orangish hue towards the center (on a petri dish).

If you get something that looks like P. Cubensis in size, then you probably have the mexicana race rather than the mexicana species.  In that case, the dosage would be the same that you are used to.

If you get something that looks smaller than P. Cubensis, or stones instead of fruit body, then you probably have P. Mexicana.  In this case I would recommend more research or ask a real expert, such as Anno, before dosing.
 


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Big_Jack]
    #1440025 -

Nice to see a fellow CaBer on this board.

/me tips hat...

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: mrpants]
    #1440042 -

Heim and Hoffman detected .25% psilocybin and .15% psilocin in psilocybe mexicana. Stamets goes on to say in "Psilocybe mushrooms of the world" that fresher specimens are undoubtedly more potent. Cubensis have .60%/.60% psilocybin/psilocin I believe..

I was under the impression that mexicana were actually less potent than cubes by weight.. although that was for sclerotia not fruits I believe. I don't know if there would be a difference. I'm sure someone else can answer your question better.

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1440387 -

Quote:
I was under the impression that mexicana were actually less potent than cubes by weight..


You may be correct... I honestly can't remember one way or the other...


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Seuss]
    #1440550 -

Nice to see a fellow CaBer on this board.

/me tips hat...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greetings MrPants.

/me tips beer over

Just to clarify it's the species of mexicana not the race.

<suddenly feels chuffed that he asked a bit of a stumper of his first question>

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Big_Jack]
    #1440580 -

P. mexicana takes 6 to twelve small liberty cap size shrooms werighing at least a quarter of a fresh ounce as compared to a fresh ounce of P. cubensis which can be one giant shroom or ten to 40 small shrooms.

P. mexicana is the most sought after shroom amongst Mazatec shamans living in the Mexican State of Oaxaca in the high Sierra Mazateca range..

They are entirely different tha the P. cubensis,.

And it is those uneducated shroom peddlers in Amsterdam at the Smart Shopps who offer P. cubensis strains as Mexicana cubensis shrooms. Or sas P. mexicanus. Those are only P. cubensis.

And as for sclerotia, they all sell sclerotia of P. tampanensis and not sclerotia of P. mexicana.

They sell spores for the non-existant species they call P. mexicanus, which are also P. cubensis and not P. mexicana.

My mushroom, P. samuiensis is the only mushroom directly related both macroscopically and microscopically to Psilocybe mexicana found outside of mexico.

Here is an image of them for you to see and understand what size they are.

They look exactly like my shrooms only they grow from three to five inches in height while P. samuiensis grows only to a height oif three inches.

Here below is P. samuiensis



and here below for comparison is P. mexicana



and then here is your one dose of P. cubensis These cubies were weighed on a postal scale and were just ynder one fresh ounce which is also equal to 3-5 fried grams.



mj

mj

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Big_Jack]
    #1442019 -

From my expereince P. mexicana fruits are roughly the same potency as P. cubensis. A different kind of trip though.


--------------------
Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Anno]
    #1442169 -

Quote:
From my expereince P. mexicana fruits are roughly the same potency as P. cubensis. A different kind of trip though.



How can this be? Psilocybin is rapidly converted to psilocin once you eat a mushroom and psilocin is the same substance no matter what species it comes from. If the molecule is identical in all cases, how can one mushroom give a different trip than another?

I know that in the case of marijuana, there are many different chemicals involved in the high, so different strains produce different effects, but as far as I know, that's not the case with mushrooms. The trip comes exclusively from psilocin in every case.

Am I missing something?

-Diploid



--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Diploid]
    #1442230 -

Yep, there are not two but four chemicals in Psilocybian mushrooms. Baeocystin is the third chemical found in most Psilocybian mushrooms and along with psiloc-(yb)in can alter the effects found from eating the mushrooms. But I would guess that the most influencing factor is Norbaeocystin as it is the closest molecular model to serotonin. When dephosphorolated like psilocybin, it seems that it would become serotonin extremely close to serotonin missing only the hydroxy in the fifth position on the indole ring. Yet, serotonin can not cross the blood-brain barrier, and therefore I can not figure how norbaeocystin would color a trip differently if it also cannot cross the barrier.


--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."

Maynard James Keenan, Tool

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: diggitydankman]
    #1442341 -

Quote:
Yep, there are not two but four chemicals in Psilocybian mushrooms.



Sure, there are actually thousands of chemicals in a mushroom, but only two are known to be psychoactive, psilocybin and psilocin; and psilocybin is very rapidly dephosphorylated by alkaline phosphatase to psilocin so it doesn't count.

Mushrooms also contain smaller amounts of baeocystin and norbaeocystin and both are probably psychoactive (though this isn't certain) but they're just psilocybin with one or two methyls missing, are probably cross-tolerant due to their structure, and occur in much smaller concentrations than psilocybin. And as you say, it's unlikely that norbaeocystin can cross the blood-brain barrier.

This leaves us with at most three (psilocin, baeocystin, and maybe norbaeocystin) psychoactive alkaloids. It doesn't seem likely that the widely varying 'flavors' of trips people report could be due to just these three substances.

I agree that people seem to have different trips with different mushrooms, but I'm not convinced that the differences in the trips are due to the different mushrooms as much as from different environments, surroundings, and state of mind.

-Diploid


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Diploid]
    #1442412 -

Baeocystin

As you can see it is a psychadelic. Also in most Psilocybes, Baeocystin has been found mostly in unrecorded amounts or not even checked for and some psilocybian mushrooms may contain rather large quantities of both (nor)- baeocystin. It is the only other known tryptamine in hallucinogenic mushrooms and therefore makes a good candidate for the variable types of trips one may have.


--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."

Maynard James Keenan, Tool

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Anno]
    #1442447 -

So Mexicana will lead to a (somehow) different type of trip to Cubes?

Can someone give me an idea of what you mean by this?

Speaking from my first go on cubes, I had the giggles, became much more fluid with my speach and then became quite aware of the connections between people (my family for example), it culminated with me looking in my bathroom mirror for about 20 minutes while my face changed shape and my features moved around like a kelidoscope version of a 'magic eye' picture, I backed off when my hands started aching from holding the sink. I kept looking in the mirror and started focusing and unfocusing my eyes, which created some stunningly weird visuals the outline of my body went from normal to fuzzy and then to 'splashed out' is the only way I can think of describing it

eg From this........................ ..To this................................. To finally this


I know they are difficult to put into words but I'd like a little more info before I go and get them.

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Big_Jack]
    #1442495 -

You'll still recognise it as psilocybin but there is a very noticeable difference. Mexicana sclerotica produce a hangover quite unlike cubes and much more of a stoned feeling. Why I'm not sure - but in terms of hangovers they are so unlike as to be almost different drugs.



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Big_Jack]
    #1442580 -

IMO, there is a lack of scientific effort to characterize all the other chemicals in the mushrooms and their possible psychoactivity ,when alone and when in synergy with the main ones.
simple as that.

Edited by Hermes_br (12/13/04 09:00 PM)

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #1445733 -

God Damn! Thank god MJ replied before the ignorance blew my mind! You cannot even compare the potency of a mushroom like Cubensis with that of Mexicanna.
Quoting STamets is profoundly misleading - in reality I would say that Mexicanna and Pan cyans are a lot more potent than cubensis by weight or dried grams - and woodlovers like ps.cyanescens, azurescens, bohemica, subaeruginosa and eucalypta are again a lot more potent than pan cyans and mexicanna. Some of these species can give you a level 3 experience from five mushroom fruits fresh.
Really - cubensis is a WEAKLY potent mushroom.
Mexicanna is a pure mushroom used for countless generations for its spiritual content, where cubensis (San isidro) is considered a weed mushroom.
PICK MEXICANNA if it really is MEXICANNA straight away!!
Most grass-growing species with the possible exception of Semilanceata produce schletoria


--------------------

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1445742 -

Anno - I dont agree at all. Are you telling me that you had to consume the same amount of dry weight of schletoria or fruit bodies as with cubensis to get the same experience?
Secondly there are countless alkaloids present and found in mushrooms ranging from serotonin trymtamine based alkaloids some of which are already known to active, to a variety of tryptophan converted alkaloids with structures so similar to Psilocybin and psilocin that its more doubtful that they would not be active - Aerugincine and Urea as examples.
So the basis for variations in experiences between specifically species of psilocybe/gymnopilus/panaeolus can be easily argued to be demonstrated by the wide variation in these 20+ tryptophan related or converted alkaloids and their ratios within different species.


--------------------

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1445747 -

'It is the only other known tryptamine in hallucinogenic mushrooms and therefore makes a good candidate for the variable types of trips one may have.'
This is very much incorrect - please check the FAQs where there is a list of many tryptamine alkaloids found in psilocybes including low contents of Serotinin (Panaeolus species) and even dimethyltryptamine in very low quantaties.


--------------------

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1445878 -

Quote:
Some of these species can give you a level 3 experience from five mushroom fruits fresh.



"Some of these species"

Probably the most potent ones yeah?

Right well, as a general rule for the species as a whole, what would you say the dosage would be for, say a level 3 then?

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1445885 -

Blue Meanie,

Urea is not psychoactive.

Urea is the chief nitrogenous waste of mammals.
Most of our nitrogenous waste comes from the breakdown of amino acids.



This occurs by deamination.
Deamination of amino acids results in the production of ammonia (NH3).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ammonia is an extremely toxic base and its accumulation in the body would quickly be fatal.
However, the liver contains a system of carrier molecules and enzymes which quickly converts the ammonia (and carbon dioxide) into urea.

This is called the urea cycle.



One turn of the cycle:
consumes 2 molecules of ammonia
consumes 1 molecule of carbon dioxide
creates 1 molecule of urea ((NH2)2CO
regenerates a molecule of ornithine for another turn.
Although our bodies cannot tolerate high concentrations of urea, it is much less poisonous than ammonia.

Urea is removed efficiently by the kidneys.

Link to discussion of the anatomy and physiology of the kidneys.

HEre is the moleculer structure of Urea.



And here is its history:

History
Urea was first discovered in human urine by H.M. Rouelle in 1773.

It was synthesized in 1828 by Friedrich Wohler and was the first organic compound to be synthesized from inorganic starting materials. It was found when Wohler attempted to synthesis ammonium cyanate, to continue a study of cyanates which he had been carrying out for several years. On treating silver cyanate with ammonium chloride solution he obtained a white crystalline material which proved identical to urea obtained from urine.

This discovery prompted Wohler to write triumphantly to Berzelius:-

"I must tell you that I can make urea without the use of kidneys, either man or dog. Ammonium cyanate is urea."

This organic synthesis dealt a severe blow to a widespread belief called "vitalism" which maintained that organic chemicals could be modified by chemistry but could only be produced through the agency of a vital force present in living plants and animals.

In 1870 urea was produced by heating ammonium carbamate in a sealed vessel. This provided the basis of the current industrial process for its production.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Anyway it is also common in thousands of plants and in animals, including humans, mammels, etc.

mj

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1445909 -

Restatement: It is the only other known tryptamine with pyschoactive properties, and therefore seems to be a good candidate for the variance in trips along with ranging levels of psiloc(yb)in. 

The other various alkaloids are found in minute quantities.  DMT is not active orally (unless taken with an MAO inhibitor) and therefore can not be a contributing factor.  Many of the other tryptamine alkaloids are not able to cross the blood brain barrier and therefore are not likely candidates.  Remember a lot of things on this earth contain serotonin ("electric banana" :smirk:) and other various tryptamine alkaloids. but only a select few have the pyschoactive prperties that allow the brai to fully explore.   


--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."

Maynard James Keenan, Tool

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: diggitydankman]
    #1446145 -

Interestingly I do not believe the DMT in shrooms is active without the MAO inhibiter. I will say that the physical side of dmt is very similar tothe physical side of mushrooms as is the effects of hte man made drug DET diethyltrytamine, another compound I have had the pleaseu to experinece on numerous ocassions in the lklate 1970s.

mj

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #1446323 -

I know you love you're biochemistry round here but I'm getting them tomorrow folks so I need your final reccomendations of both type and rough doseage for a level 3.

Cheers for the help on this.
Big Jack


Edited by Big_Jack (04/10/03 11:37 AM)

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Big_Jack]
    #1447676 -

#bump#

Anybody?

Pleasy please.

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Big_Jack]
    #1447799 -

Id say that there is no way in the world MJ that the levels of DMT found in mushrooms would ever be significantly active with a MAOI.
Secondly I never said that Urea was an active alkaloid - Urea was just an example of a alkaloid.
Thirdly the alkaloids that I refer to are various unconverted tryptophan related alkaloids - L-tryptophan, 5-OH-tryptophan both of which have been demonstrated to have levels as high as 35% in some psilocybe mushrooms. As psilocybin, psilocin, baeocystin, norbaeocystin and aerugincine represent biological conversions of these basic precursors, my contention was and still is, that they have a significant affect on bioassay.


--------------------

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1448070 -

When Ott and I and Bigwood ate the baeocystine crystals the high was no different in effect than psioocne and/or psilocybine. And there is really not enough of those chemicals inthe mushrooms to make that much difference inthe high. Not all shrooms will have those chemicals in them and they vary from shroom to shroom. Eventually they all ceome psilocine in the syntesis.

mj

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Big_Jack]
    #1448186 -

Go with the Mexicana. They will be more potent and one to two dried grams will give you a nice level three.


--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."

Maynard James Keenan, Tool

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: diggitydankman]
    #1448720 -

Thanks fella, just what I needed to hear. :grin: 

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1448727 -

>Are you telling me that you had to consume the same amount of dry weight of
>schletoria or fruit bodies as with cubensis to get the same experience?

Read my post Bluemeanie...
"From my expereince P. mexicana fruits are roughly the same potency as P. cubensis. A different kind of trip though."

By fruits I mean fruitbodies, not sclerotia.
And yes, the fruitbodies of P. mexicana that I grew on several ocasions are roughly the same potency as P. cubensis.

Diploid, ss far for the alkaloids, from this faq:
http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/3170/pag/4
"A whole truckload of other indoles are known to exist in Psilocybe mushrooms....
5-Benzyloxy-3-indole acetic acid 2
N,N-Dimethyltryptamine hydrogen-oxalate [aka DMT] 4
Gramine 40
3-Hydroxyethyl indole 2
5-Hydroxy-3-indole acetic acid 2
5-Hydroxyindole 4
3-Hydroxymethylindole 2
5-Hydroxytryptamine creatine sulfate [aka Serotonin] 4
5-Hydroxytryptophane 2
Indole 4
3-Indoleacetamide 2
3-Indole acetic acid 2
3-Indoleacetic acid ethyl ester 2
3-Indoleacetonitrile 2
3-Indolealdehyde 40
3-Indoleacetaldehyde 2
3-Indolecarboxylic acid 4
3-Indolelactic acid 2
gamma-(Indole)-N-butyric acid 4
beta-Indole-3-acrylic acid 2
beta-(Indole-3)-propionic acid 4
Indoxylacetate 2
Indoxylbutyrate 2
Isatin 2
5-Methoxy-2-carboxyindole 2
5-Methoxydimethyltryptamine monooxalate [aka Bufotenine] 4
5-Methoxyindole 4
2-Methylindole 2
3-Methylindole 4
5-Methylindole 4
5-Methyltryptophane 2
N-Methyltryptophane 2
Tryptamine hydrochloride 4
L-Tryptophane 0.8 "



--------------------
Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #1449046 -

Jonathan Ott? The only guy quoted to have experienced affects from smoked wormwood (artem. absinth.). Since DMT is very similar structurely to Psilocybin and yet yields significantly different bioassay, my contention seems sound. Unless you can demonstrate otherwise - and like you say MJ if its not a published source then what does it demonstrate? :smile:
Sorry Anno - i read your post, just disagreed with it. But I respect your comments.


--------------------

Edited by Zen Peddler (04/11/03 08:02 AM)

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1449250 -

>i read your post, just disagreed with it

Hmm....

You were quting me saying something about sclerotia, while I NEVER mentioned sclerotia in my post....


--------------------
Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Anno]
    #1449292 -

SClerotia takes fifteen grams fresh for a high making it close to P. cubensis. whioch would be thirty grams fresh. AS for fruiting bodies. In the wild, P. mexicana takes 12 to 20 mushrooms weighing only 1/4 to 1/3 of a fresh ounce.

Are you sure your mexicanas were not tampanensis which is a stronger dose is need Anno?

Just curious. I could not see anyone eating a fresh ounce of P. mexicana. maria saboinba would feed her clients 6 top 8 pairs of fresh P. mexicana which would be 12 to 16 fresh shrooms. She herself would always eat twice as many as hew clients, meaning 24 to 36 fresh shrooms. That would be about 1/3 to 1/2 a fresh ounce. Similar to a high of 20 to 40 P. semilanceata shrooms fresh (liberty caps).

I would say if you consumed a fresh ounce you would be onthe floor for quite some time. Especially afffter lift-off,

mj

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #1449329 -

Well folks I now have my stuff and am raring to go for tomorrow.

One small thing though, turns out it's mexicana sclerotia (fresh) I obviuously didn't look closely enough at the notice they had pinned up.

I hope this doesn't spark off another load of debate and diagrams (I had enough of chemistry and biology in college :wink:) but now I'll make my final request.

Approx dosage in grams for a level 3 on mexicana sclerotia?

All answers welcome.

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Big_Jack]
    #1449349 -

How many fresh grams did you get?
MJ says that fifteen fresh would be apx to thirty fresh grams of cubensis. This would normally take me to a level 3.


--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."

Maynard James Keenan, Tool

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #1449445 -

>Are you sure your mexicanas were not tampanensis which is a stronger dose is need Anno?

100% sure.


--------------------
Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Big_Jack]
    #1449805 -

Approx dosage in grams for a level 3 on mexicana sclerotia?

mj said 15 in the above post.

Maybe drying and capsuling them would be your best bet. There's nothing quite like the taste of fresh sclerotica..yeuch..


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Big_Jack]
    #1450422 -

HI, Here is the Consciious Dreams tray for Tampanensis sclerotia form Amsterdam's Kokopeli Smart Shop



You can read the dosage level onthe packaging here.

mj

I would personally eat 20 to 25 fresh but then that is me.

mj

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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: diggitydankman]
    #1450616 -

I got 20g between myself and a friend, he'll probably be a bit on the cautious side as it's his first time and I'm willing to take the lot if needs be, but I'll not be invading his stash so it's 10g each fresh.

Edited by Big_Jack (04/12/03 09:57 AM)

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
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