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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1445747 - 04/10/03 06:42 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

'It is the only other known tryptamine in hallucinogenic mushrooms and therefore makes a good candidate for the variable types of trips one may have.'
This is very much incorrect - please check the FAQs where there is a list of many tryptamine alkaloids found in psilocybes including low contents of Serotinin (Panaeolus species) and even dimethyltryptamine in very low quantaties.


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OfflineBig_Jack
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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1445878 - 04/10/03 09:18 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Some of these species can give you a level 3 experience from five mushroom fruits fresh.




"Some of these species"

Probably the most potent ones yeah?

Right well, as a general rule for the species as a whole, what would you say the dosage would be for, say a level 3 then?


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1445885 - 04/10/03 09:24 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Blue Meanie,

Urea is not psychoactive.

Urea is the chief nitrogenous waste of mammals.
Most of our nitrogenous waste comes from the breakdown of amino acids.



This occurs by deamination.
Deamination of amino acids results in the production of ammonia (NH3).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ammonia is an extremely toxic base and its accumulation in the body would quickly be fatal.
However, the liver contains a system of carrier molecules and enzymes which quickly converts the ammonia (and carbon dioxide) into urea.

This is called the urea cycle.



One turn of the cycle:
consumes 2 molecules of ammonia
consumes 1 molecule of carbon dioxide
creates 1 molecule of urea ((NH2)2CO
regenerates a molecule of ornithine for another turn.
Although our bodies cannot tolerate high concentrations of urea, it is much less poisonous than ammonia.

Urea is removed efficiently by the kidneys.

Link to discussion of the anatomy and physiology of the kidneys.

HEre is the moleculer structure of Urea.



And here is its history:

History
Urea was first discovered in human urine by H.M. Rouelle in 1773.

It was synthesized in 1828 by Friedrich Wohler and was the first organic compound to be synthesized from inorganic starting materials. It was found when Wohler attempted to synthesis ammonium cyanate, to continue a study of cyanates which he had been carrying out for several years. On treating silver cyanate with ammonium chloride solution he obtained a white crystalline material which proved identical to urea obtained from urine.

This discovery prompted Wohler to write triumphantly to Berzelius:-

"I must tell you that I can make urea without the use of kidneys, either man or dog. Ammonium cyanate is urea."

This organic synthesis dealt a severe blow to a widespread belief called "vitalism" which maintained that organic chemicals could be modified by chemistry but could only be produced through the agency of a vital force present in living plants and animals.

In 1870 urea was produced by heating ammonium carbamate in a sealed vessel. This provided the basis of the current industrial process for its production.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Anyway it is also common in thousands of plants and in animals, including humans, mammels, etc.

mj


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Offlinediggitydankman
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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1445909 - 04/10/03 09:46 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Restatement: It is the only other known tryptamine with pyschoactive properties, and therefore seems to be a good candidate for the variance in trips along with ranging levels of psiloc(yb)in. 

The other various alkaloids are found in minute quantities.  DMT is not active orally (unless taken with an MAO inhibitor) and therefore can not be a contributing factor.  Many of the other tryptamine alkaloids are not able to cross the blood brain barrier and therefore are not likely candidates.  Remember a lot of things on this earth contain serotonin ("electric banana" :smirk:) and other various tryptamine alkaloids. but only a select few have the pyschoactive prperties that allow the brai to fully explore.   


--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."

Maynard James Keenan, Tool


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: diggitydankman]
    #1446145 - 04/10/03 12:09 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Interestingly I do not believe the DMT in shrooms is active without the MAO inhibiter. I will say that the physical side of dmt is very similar tothe physical side of mushrooms as is the effects of hte man made drug DET diethyltrytamine, another compound I have had the pleaseu to experinece on numerous ocassions in the lklate 1970s.

mj


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OfflineBig_Jack
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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #1446323 - 04/10/03 01:28 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I know you love you're biochemistry round here but I'm getting them tomorrow folks so I need your final reccomendations of both type and rough doseage for a level 3.

Cheers for the help on this.
Big Jack



Edited by Big_Jack (04/10/03 01:37 PM)


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OfflineBig_Jack
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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Big_Jack]
    #1447676 - 04/10/03 08:20 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

#bump#

Anybody?

Pleasy please.


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Big_Jack]
    #1447799 - 04/10/03 09:04 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Id say that there is no way in the world MJ that the levels of DMT found in mushrooms would ever be significantly active with a MAOI.
Secondly I never said that Urea was an active alkaloid - Urea was just an example of a alkaloid.
Thirdly the alkaloids that I refer to are various unconverted tryptophan related alkaloids - L-tryptophan, 5-OH-tryptophan both of which have been demonstrated to have levels as high as 35% in some psilocybe mushrooms. As psilocybin, psilocin, baeocystin, norbaeocystin and aerugincine represent biological conversions of these basic precursors, my contention was and still is, that they have a significant affect on bioassay.


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1448070 - 04/10/03 10:45 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

When Ott and I and Bigwood ate the baeocystine crystals the high was no different in effect than psioocne and/or psilocybine. And there is really not enough of those chemicals inthe mushrooms to make that much difference inthe high. Not all shrooms will have those chemicals in them and they vary from shroom to shroom. Eventually they all ceome psilocine in the syntesis.

mj


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Offlinediggitydankman
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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Big_Jack]
    #1448186 - 04/10/03 11:23 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Go with the Mexicana. They will be more potent and one to two dried grams will give you a nice level three.


--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."

Maynard James Keenan, Tool


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OfflineBig_Jack
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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: diggitydankman]
    #1448720 - 04/11/03 03:47 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks fella, just what I needed to hear. :grin: 


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1448727 - 04/11/03 04:02 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

>Are you telling me that you had to consume the same amount of dry weight of
>schletoria or fruit bodies as with cubensis to get the same experience?

Read my post Bluemeanie...
"From my expereince P. mexicana fruits are roughly the same potency as P. cubensis. A different kind of trip though."

By fruits I mean fruitbodies, not sclerotia.
And yes, the fruitbodies of P. mexicana that I grew on several ocasions are roughly the same potency as P. cubensis.

Diploid, ss far for the alkaloids, from this faq:
http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/3170/pag/4
"A whole truckload of other indoles are known to exist in Psilocybe mushrooms....
5-Benzyloxy-3-indole acetic acid 2
N,N-Dimethyltryptamine hydrogen-oxalate [aka DMT] 4
Gramine 40
3-Hydroxyethyl indole 2
5-Hydroxy-3-indole acetic acid 2
5-Hydroxyindole 4
3-Hydroxymethylindole 2
5-Hydroxytryptamine creatine sulfate [aka Serotonin] 4
5-Hydroxytryptophane 2
Indole 4
3-Indoleacetamide 2
3-Indole acetic acid 2
3-Indoleacetic acid ethyl ester 2
3-Indoleacetonitrile 2
3-Indolealdehyde 40
3-Indoleacetaldehyde 2
3-Indolecarboxylic acid 4
3-Indolelactic acid 2
gamma-(Indole)-N-butyric acid 4
beta-Indole-3-acrylic acid 2
beta-(Indole-3)-propionic acid 4
Indoxylacetate 2
Indoxylbutyrate 2
Isatin 2
5-Methoxy-2-carboxyindole 2
5-Methoxydimethyltryptamine monooxalate [aka Bufotenine] 4
5-Methoxyindole 4
2-Methylindole 2
3-Methylindole 4
5-Methylindole 4
5-Methyltryptophane 2
N-Methyltryptophane 2
Tryptamine hydrochloride 4
L-Tryptophane 0.8 "



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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #1449046 - 04/11/03 09:38 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Jonathan Ott? The only guy quoted to have experienced affects from smoked wormwood (artem. absinth.). Since DMT is very similar structurely to Psilocybin and yet yields significantly different bioassay, my contention seems sound. Unless you can demonstrate otherwise - and like you say MJ if its not a published source then what does it demonstrate? :smile:
Sorry Anno - i read your post, just disagreed with it. But I respect your comments.


--------------------


Edited by Zen Peddler (04/11/03 10:02 AM)


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1449250 - 04/11/03 11:36 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

>i read your post, just disagreed with it

Hmm....

You were quting me saying something about sclerotia, while I NEVER mentioned sclerotia in my post....


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Anno]
    #1449292 - 04/11/03 11:57 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

SClerotia takes fifteen grams fresh for a high making it close to P. cubensis. whioch would be thirty grams fresh. AS for fruiting bodies. In the wild, P. mexicana takes 12 to 20 mushrooms weighing only 1/4 to 1/3 of a fresh ounce.

Are you sure your mexicanas were not tampanensis which is a stronger dose is need Anno?

Just curious. I could not see anyone eating a fresh ounce of P. mexicana. maria saboinba would feed her clients 6 top 8 pairs of fresh P. mexicana which would be 12 to 16 fresh shrooms. She herself would always eat twice as many as hew clients, meaning 24 to 36 fresh shrooms. That would be about 1/3 to 1/2 a fresh ounce. Similar to a high of 20 to 40 P. semilanceata shrooms fresh (liberty caps).

I would say if you consumed a fresh ounce you would be onthe floor for quite some time. Especially afffter lift-off,

mj


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OfflineBig_Jack
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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #1449329 - 04/11/03 12:10 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Well folks I now have my stuff and am raring to go for tomorrow.

One small thing though, turns out it's mexicana sclerotia (fresh) I obviuously didn't look closely enough at the notice they had pinned up.

I hope this doesn't spark off another load of debate and diagrams (I had enough of chemistry and biology in college :wink:) but now I'll make my final request.

Approx dosage in grams for a level 3 on mexicana sclerotia?

All answers welcome.


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Offlinediggitydankman
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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Big_Jack]
    #1449349 - 04/11/03 12:20 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

How many fresh grams did you get?
MJ says that fifteen fresh would be apx to thirty fresh grams of cubensis. This would normally take me to a level 3.


--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."

Maynard James Keenan, Tool


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #1449445 - 04/11/03 01:05 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

>Are you sure your mexicanas were not tampanensis which is a stronger dose is need Anno?

100% sure.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Big_Jack]
    #1449805 - 04/11/03 03:01 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Approx dosage in grams for a level 3 on mexicana sclerotia?

mj said 15 in the above post.

Maybe drying and capsuling them would be your best bet. There's nothing quite like the taste of fresh sclerotica..yeuch..


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Cubensis or Mexicana? [Re: Big_Jack]
    #1450422 - 04/11/03 06:40 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

HI, Here is the Consciious Dreams tray for Tampanensis sclerotia form Amsterdam's Kokopeli Smart Shop



You can read the dosage level onthe packaging here.

mj

I would personally eat 20 to 25 fresh but then that is me.

mj


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