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Offlinecrumblebum
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Time is on my mind
    #14395572 - 05/03/11 05:42 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The topic is Time.

Does time have a directional arrow? Meaning, is it possible to truly say that time is moving forward without implying that it can also move backward?

There's a lot of meat on this bone, what questions occur to you? What concepts about time seem to defy "common sense" or otherwise create a paradox?


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: crumblebum]
    #14395604 - 05/03/11 05:49 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Well, for one, I don't see how time could begin. "Beginning" and "end" are terms that apply to events situated within time, in relation to other events. But, by definition of course, nothing could come before time, and nothing could come afterward.

So, if time is infinite, it could be either linear, or cyclical. If there are a limited number of events that occur within time, then it it is infinite in duration but not in size; we end up with a cyclical, eternally-recurring model. If there are an unlimited number of possible events that can occur, then it's like we're on an infinitely extending line, with no two things happening twice.

Here's an interesting article about time, and how it's basically just equivalent to physical change: http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-04-scientists-spacetime-dimension.html


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: crumblebum]
    #14395617 - 05/03/11 05:52 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I like scientific notions of time.  The space-time model is cool, but so is the entropy arrow of time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_(arrow_of_time)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime

edit -
Ha, I realize this is a lame response, just linking to wikipedia.  Im not sure what else to write, I have wrote much about time here over the years.  Too often I think, somebody enthusiastically posts something along the lines of "time is an just illusion!" with little substantiation or apparent study into the matter.

Ill just add that I really like the entropy interpretation of time.  While relativity's space-time is more glamorous and occupies much of pop-science, I think the entropy interpretation more adequately models our personal and intuitive notion of time.  It has been said that time is 'that which a clock measures'.  But what does a clock measure as it winds down?  In all cases, it measures the progression of entropy to a higher state.  There are lots of great thoughts that go along with this (I like to consider my freezer as being a local time machine).

I am quite interested in the disparate qualities that relativistic and thermodynamic time have and often muse on the unification of the two. 


Edited by DieCommie (05/03/11 06:20 PM)


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Offlinezoomfan
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: DieCommie]
    #14397440 - 05/03/11 10:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

time is just another word for change, if nothing changed there would be no time. in regards to direction, what direction is change going? its kind of like asking what direction is the big bang. the only thing that gives time its direction is birth and death. relative to our birth were moving toward our death.


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: DieCommie]
    #14398932 - 05/04/11 09:01 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

That's because saying "time is an illusion" is more a philosophical matter for most people, I don't really understand much about science but despite that it should be clear to see that the universe is akin to one big melting pot constantly evolving and reinventing itself.


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InvisibleSunny
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: crumblebum]
    #14399468 - 05/04/11 11:24 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I used to believe time was illusory, because I could not travel through time in direction I chose. But that would be wrong, for the logic does not follow that of experience.

Time is liquid-fabric, just like space. It is possible to travel through time in any direction, but you and I can't do it. We are beings grounded to the first 4 dimensions of perception, therefore, unable to perceive the higher dimensions which would enable us free 4th dimensional travel.

To answer your first question: Time has a directional arrow for US, but not for all consciousness.

The oft cited paradox is that you can't travel back in time, without undoing the future. This is an incorrect assumption, you haven't undone the future, you've simple begun to travel in the 5th dimension, along another possible permutation of time.

Time as we perceive it, is a line, time however, when observed from the 6th dimension, would be a matrix of infinite size. So then, it exists in infinite inversions, and I'm sure in some instances, even exists in retrograde.

:2cents:


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Offlinecrumblebum
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: Sunny]
    #14400080 - 05/04/11 01:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Addressing the "entropy" arrow of time (which I quite like), given that entropy can be halted and reversed in small pockets at the expense of the whole, does this imply that time can also slow or reverse itself in pockets at the expense the rest of the universe happening faster?


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InvisibleSunny
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: crumblebum]
    #14400196 - 05/04/11 02:18 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Well, if time is a vast infinite matrix, then entropy is irrelevant. Of course there is past, present and future, however your perception of it is only relative to you. Because consciousness causes time, and matter to collapse relative to itself only.

So, in a nutshell, no. The rest of existence can't happen slower or faster, and time can't be reversed from your current position inside perception.

However, from another position, time is in fact moving in a retrograde inversion. But it doesn't matter, because we can't witness it.

Awesome mind-fuck, huh?


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InvisibleSunny
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: crumblebum]
    #14400223 - 05/04/11 02:24 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

What's really weird to think about is that some matter moves almost as fast time passes, there by appearing to slow time around it.


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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: crumblebum]
    #14400498 - 05/04/11 03:18 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

crumblebum said:
The topic is Time.

Does time have a directional arrow? Meaning, is it possible to truly say that time is moving forward without implying that it can also move backward?

There's a lot of meat on this bone, what questions occur to you? What concepts about time seem to defy "common sense" or otherwise create a paradox?




Distance misconstrues time.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: crumblebum]
    #14400960 - 05/04/11 05:00 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

crumblebum said:
Addressing the "entropy" arrow of time (which I quite like), given that entropy can be halted and reversed in small pockets at the expense of the whole, does this imply that time can also slow or reverse itself in pockets at the expense the rest of the universe happening faster?




That is exactly what I meant when I wrote, "I like to consider my freezer as being a local time machine."


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Offlinecrumblebum
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: DieCommie]
    #14401174 - 05/04/11 05:56 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Ah, didn't see the edit till later, so I was just replying to the wiki entries.

Since we have always existed within a living system and since this living system is by definition one of those pockets of reversed entropy that works at the expense of the greater system, is it then true that humans have only ever experienced time in reverse?

That is, since the presence of life implies an area where entropy is locally inverted, do all living things exist in reverse time?


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OfflineiPRiSTiNE
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: zoomfan]
    #14401178 - 05/04/11 05:58 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zoomfan said:
time is just another word for change, if nothing changed there would be no time. in regards to direction, what direction is change going? its kind of like asking what direction is the big bang. the only thing that gives time its direction is birth and death. relative to our birth were moving toward our death.




I like that and after I read it considered all the small changes that happen in anyones life any at any point in time whether noticeable or not, while alot of large or semi large change can happen naturally and will incorporate more lifely influences people always seem to push it away or cancel it out to continue their own conceited mindset but may perhaps even be confused with concepts in their own life after a bit. When thought of in terms how a society usually goes about existing in extended periods of time or even short-term reminds me of a ticking time bomb of some sort dragging out the simple logic of things.


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Offlinecrumblebum
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: iPRiSTiNE] * 1
    #14401213 - 05/04/11 06:06 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The problem with using macroscopic events to measure time is, on a microscopic level there is nothing to indicate time. Any event can happen in reverse, and there is nothing about the order of events that intrinsically implies they have to happen in a particular order.

That's what makes entropy such an elegant solution. It can happen in reverse, but only very locally. When enough of a system is considered, entropy will always increase in the same direction in time.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: crumblebum]
    #14401228 - 05/04/11 06:09 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Its almost as if time is an emergent property, one that arises out of the very nature of large numbers and probability

(Although, I may prefer to state that cause and effect the other way around...(If that makes any sense...))


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Offlinecrumblebum
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: DieCommie]
    #14401329 - 05/04/11 06:34 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

So time must be inferred to exist based on the patterns created by thermodynamic entropy? The law of large numbers, I'm only loosely seeing how it ties in? If you were to quantify the disorder of a system over time, it would show the average as a decline in order, is that it?


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InvisibleSunny
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: DieCommie]
    #14402223 - 05/04/11 09:19 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

:lol:

You guys are talking about time like it's energy. It's not. It's not an emergent property either. I think you have both missed the point that time is an axis of travel, not a tangible item.

The Arrow of time concept doesn't imply the time may be slowed, or reversed, it implies that time moves in a single direction, or that it maybe described by a complex formula, like a chain of [if(){then()}] statements.


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Offlinecrumblebum
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: Sunny]
    #14402274 - 05/04/11 09:28 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

If it cannot be described in those terms, then it is irrelevant folk lore. That's the point you're missing.


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Offlinessc18
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: crumblebum]
    #14402279 - 05/04/11 09:29 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

crumblebum said:
The topic is Time.

Does time have a directional arrow? Meaning, is it possible to truly say that time is moving forward without implying that it can also move backward?

There's a lot of meat on this bone, what questions occur to you? What concepts about time seem to defy "common sense" or otherwise create a paradox?




TIme is moving like this _____ and also like this 0. It is moving linear fashion in a directional squiggle line compromised by nothing.


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Offlinessc18
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: Sunny]
    #14402289 - 05/04/11 09:32 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sunny said:
:lol:

You guys are talking about time like it's energy. It's not. It's not an emergent property either. I think you have both missed the point that time is an axis of travel, not a tangible item.

The Arrow of time concept doesn't imply the time may be slowed, or reversed, it implies that time moves in a single direction, or that it maybe described by a complex formula, like a chain of [if(){then()}] statements.



Yes, and it is certainly in a "straight" line and also at the EXact same time it is moving along a circle. Which makes it move like a squiggle. But a squiggle is a straight line, because it is finite.

Such is finite.

Infinite is a perfect circle, and can be "grabbed" and "used" by finite.

Only a circle can create true infinitelinear time.

But done get me wrong, the whole purpose of "this" is to say, yes a circle can be attempted. And already exists.

A circle becomes too infinite. It disappears, and a finite representation is fluid moving energy.


WHICH IS WHY, I believe EVERYTHING comes from nothing.


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Edited by ssc18 (05/04/11 09:34 PM)


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InvisibleSunny
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: crumblebum]
    #14402327 - 05/04/11 09:38 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

crumblebum said:
If it cannot be described in those terms, then it is irrelevant folk lore. That's the point you're missing.





That's asinine. Time does not equal energy. Deal with it.


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Offlinessc18
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: Sunny]
    #14402809 - 05/04/11 11:12 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sunny said:
Quote:

crumblebum said:
If it cannot be described in those terms, then it is irrelevant folk lore. That's the point you're missing.





That's asinine. Time does not equal energy. Deal with it.



Time comes from the nothingness...

Lot of stuff does... Probably EVERYTHING does.

Just types of "nothing"

Thats why there IS an electron, something that moves "fast" and it all makes sense.

I don't think somethingness can just appear in conjunction with nothingness. I think the somethingness comes from the stirring of nothing.

I think they would have to remain separate if they began separate!!

Really guys? How do you THINK it all happened. Let's not let our imaginations run a muck.


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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: ssc18]
    #14403113 - 05/05/11 12:14 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Well, that's exactly what I was explaining previously. The irony being that time-space are actually the nothingness, and matter the something suspended in the nothingness.

What happens is this: Consciousness, the 3rd force in the being, observes the matter which is suspended in space-time. By observing matter, consciousness causes matter to collapse into various forms inside the space-time. In a space-time continuum without consciousness nothing happens, because everything remains in super-position.

It's because of this that time feels illusory, but in actuality, time is one of the most important actual descriptions of being. Time is important because we observe it in linear form, though it in fact exists as a matrix, and by travelling along that line we are able to observe the being from different positions.

Like I said before, the real mindfuck is that consciousness is in fact capable of travelling to any point in the time matrix, but not without travelling through other permutations of linear time.


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Offlinecrumblebum
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: Sunny]
    #14405126 - 05/05/11 12:46 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Who said time was energy? The observation of the behavior of energy within a system is a possible way to indicate that time exists, but assuming that that means anyone thinks that time is energy is a cargo cult understanding of the principle.


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Offlinecrumblebum
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: crumblebum]
    #14405185 - 05/05/11 01:08 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

And Sunny, we're talking about a very specific version of the arrow of time that can imply those things.

The question was, basically, IS time merely an axis of travel, or is there some more tangible way to account for its existence.

So claiming that 1. no one gets time but you and 2. the basic version of the arrow of time doesn't imply anything about backward, forward, or stalled moments of time, is asinine. You basically just restated earlier parts of the discussion as statements instead of questions.

What kind of backing or substance to you have for this "it's a matrix we can just imagineer our way around with our mind powerz!" claim? What are you talking about that can be tangibly linked to any real world phenomenon?


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Edited by crumblebum (05/05/11 01:10 PM)


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Offlinessc18
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: Sunny]
    #14406164 - 05/05/11 04:34 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sunny said:
Well, that's exactly what I was explaining previously. The irony being that time-space are actually the nothingness, and matter the something suspended in the nothingness.

What happens is this: Consciousness, the 3rd force in the being, observes the matter which is suspended in space-time. By observing matter, consciousness causes matter to collapse into various forms inside the space-time. In a space-time continuum without consciousness nothing happens, because everything remains in super-position.

It's because of this that time feels illusory, but in actuality, time is one of the most important actual descriptions of being. Time is important because we observe it in linear form, though it in fact exists as a matrix, and by travelling along that line we are able to observe the being from different positions.

Like I said before, the real mindfuck is that consciousness is in fact capable of travelling to any point in the time matrix, but not without travelling through other permutations of linear time.



yeah, I like it.

Time is a description of being, part of the nothingness. Just like a hole, a circle can be formed by linear point mathematics using the power of infinity. rational numbers begin to make less and less sense, until you are left with time and space.

two parts of a ever being whole, what is there more? this hole can be? this nothing can exist? what resides in/on/beside/above/with/without it.

what is separate from nothing? what is, does not come without. without choses not to come with.

can you grasp the notion of nothingness? what IS IT. what IS NOTHINGNESS?


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Offlinessc18
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: ssc18]
    #14406185 - 05/05/11 04:38 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

nothingness, is everything that something is not.

if something is in all actuality equal to nothing, then ALL IS NOTHING.

what do you take from this?

does the light we shine, the body we have, = to nothing? does it reside INSIDE nothing. does it live in nothing. does it hide. does it come without? does it come with? will it do both?

nothingness has already proven to have laws to it. somethingness can't come into it and fuck with it's domain. it is king and ruler, it gives the rules and sets the laws to follow.

who is to say it isn't us/God.


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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: ssc18]
    #14406441 - 05/05/11 05:42 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

You're saying nothing. :yesnod:


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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #14407855 - 05/05/11 10:33 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
You're saying nothing. :yesnod:




:lol: NOW YOU GOT IT!


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InvisibleSunny
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: crumblebum]
    #14410873 - 05/06/11 03:24 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

crumblebum said:
And Sunny, we're talking about a very specific version of the arrow of time that can imply those things.

The question was, basically, IS time merely an axis of travel, or is there some more tangible way to account for its existence.

So claiming that 1. no one gets time but you and 2. the basic version of the arrow of time doesn't imply anything about backward, forward, or stalled moments of time, is asinine. You basically just restated earlier parts of the discussion as statements instead of questions.

What kind of backing or substance to you have for this "it's a matrix we can just imagineer our way around with our mind powerz!" claim? What are you talking about that can be tangibly linked to any real world phenomenon?




What's all this mind powerz bollocks you're tossing around? I said no such thing. I said consciousness by the act observation, causes matter to collapse into recognition. Time and space are simply the stuff that matter and consciousness travel through.

I also didn't claim to know anything about time not already well known by most of the human race. I simply pointed out a basic flaw in your argument.

The Arrow of Time says that time must exist because entropy was low in the past, but high in the future. This ONLY implies that time moves in a single direction. And thus allows us to make a scientific distinction between the past present and future. It implies nor indicates NOTHING else.

So what is this "special" version of the Arrow of Time concept which implies that time ebbs and flows, thereby undoing the Second Law of thermodynamics?

In order for your argument to be correct, everything in existence must be everywhere, simultaneously(according to the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics). We already know this is false.

As for my explanation that time is a matrix; Well it's basic quantum mechanics. If everything is in super-position, then obviously there are only statistical values to a given timeline. A linear time-line might happen one specific way, though it might happen infinite other ways as well. So time is actually a matrix of possible outcomes. Each event is actually it's own matrix of possibilities.

Now, like I was explaining before, the mind-body problem plays a big part in this. By observing an event, you command the outcome. Consciousness, literally, observes it's way through infinite possibilities, of infinite possible time-lines.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: Sunny]
    #14411006 - 05/06/11 03:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

That makes no sense to me.


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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: DieCommie]
    #14411117 - 05/06/11 04:16 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

It's basic quantum mechanics.

Try looking up the mind-body problem. There are tons of peer reviewed papers on the subject.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: Sunny]
    #14411127 - 05/06/11 04:17 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I know basic quantum mechanics, I have a degree in phyiscs and am working on advanced degrees right now.  What you wrote didnt make any sense to me.  It looked like nonsense with technical words thrown in... :shrug:


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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: DieCommie]
    #14411140 - 05/06/11 04:20 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I damn near plagiarised everything I responded with. So either you're lying, or you don't know what you're talking about.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: Sunny]
    #14411172 - 05/06/11 04:26 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

In what theory do you treat time as a matrix?  Where did you plagiarize it from?

I think you dont know what you are talking about.  You are just rambling hippie nonsense.


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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: DieCommie]
    #14411191 - 05/06/11 04:30 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The Everett interpretation.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: Sunny]
    #14411198 - 05/06/11 04:31 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

You are saying that time is a matrix in the many worlds interpretation?  I dont think so... Have any links?  Where did you plagiarize it from?


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InvisibleSunny
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: DieCommie]
    #14411216 - 05/06/11 04:37 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

That's exactly what it is. Every event is a branch point. So then please explain to me how time isn't a matrix of possible outcomes? The Everett interpretation explains it in much better detail then I ever could. But the summation is still the same.

hah, infact here, let me sum it up for you:
"The many-worlds interpretation is a postulate of quantum mechanics that asserts the objective reality of the universal wavefunction, but denies the actuality of wavefunction collapse, which implies that all possible alternative histories and futures are real"

SO if the wavefunction doesn't collapse, than what do you have? A big list of possible outcomes, all of which actually happen. This big list is often described in simple mathematics, as a matrix.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: Sunny]
    #14411246 - 05/06/11 04:43 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

That doesn't make time a matrix.  Nor does it support or even illuminate any of your other posts. 

Time is treated as a scalar in quantum mechanics, not a matrix.  The many worlds interpretation doesn't change that.  The many worlds interpretation has the exact same predictive and descriptive ability as the copenhagen interpretation because there are each merely interpretations that go beyond the same basic science.


Quote:

This big list is often described in simple mathematics, as a matrix.




No its not.  Not in any paper, textbook or discussion I have ever had.  Can you please provide any substantiation for this?  Could you also please link to where you plagiarized that earlier post, because it read like nonsensical gibberish to me and I think if I can get the context from the web site I might understand it better.

(also, it seems like you are confusing possible outcomes and time.  Are you claiming that time is described by a matrix, or that possible outcomes are described as a matrix?)


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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: DieCommie]
    #14411307 - 05/06/11 04:56 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

common sense does support the linear procession of moments in time very much like our physics model with time being a linear dimension.

but sense is particulate,
we only sense bits of things at a time.
so each moment is just some bit of sensation bouyed along in the stream of consciousness.

psychedelics impinge on the linear procession of time based effects by changing the physics of consciousness.

under the influence consciousness accommodates more time and space, and each moment's sensation pattern is accommodated for a much longer duration.
consequently time is no longer one dimensional when you are "strange".
instead
strands of time branch and layer, and you can watch the world stand still or movebackwards.

what has been altered is consciousness, and effectively the confinement of time to a single dimension.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleSunny
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: DieCommie]
    #14411348 - 05/06/11 05:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Stop appealing to the man. You can't prove me wrong by calling me an idiot.

How does saying time is scalar prove anything at all. We all KNOW time is scalar, it's a given!

This is a really basic concept, that has been outlined before. We both know a matrix is list of elements which may be used to described many things. A matrix, is a big list of stuff. How is my definition of a matrix wrong?

I also already explained that time the thing, is not multidimensional, it's only 1 dimension. And that there are multiple, linear time-lines occuring simultaneously. Events in time maybe described by a matrix of possible outcomes.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: Sunny]
    #14411549 - 05/06/11 05:50 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

How does saying time is scalar prove anything at all.




It doesnt.  But its in contradiction to the claims you made throughout this thread.


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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: DieCommie]
    #14411758 - 05/06/11 06:30 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

No it's not, I never declared time itself to be anything other than scalar. I even said in the beginning of the last page that time is only an axis of travel. I explained that time, and events in it, could be described by a matrix of possibilities and possible time lines. I did not once declare time to be vector based. That was your attempt to misinterpret what I said.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: Sunny]
    #14411969 - 05/06/11 07:14 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Things like this,
Quote:

Well, if time is a vast infinite matrix, then entropy is irrelevant.




It just doesn't make sense, and you state it like a well known fact with no substantiation or explanation.  Even if the premise of this statement is true (which it is not), the conclusion surely doesn't follow that premise.  You said you plagiarized this stuff, or got it from somewhere... Where?  Could you put up a link?  Otherwise, just admit this is your own personal hypothesis and set of definitions.  Then at least we would have some context to discuss them.


Edited by DieCommie (05/06/11 07:20 PM)


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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: DieCommie]
    #14412116 - 05/06/11 07:46 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Pretty much all of the things I paraphrased came from wikipedia. That particular statement is a quip about the Arrow Of Time/entropy. Maybe it was a bit of an exaggeration to say that the Arrow of Time is irrelevent. Certainly time is asymmetrical when observed, but the analogy to entropy is certainly irrelevant. Time doesn't flow like energy.

My point was really that the metaphor was false.

I personally question whether the flow of time is real at all. It has to be, because we can give it direction. But I remain suspicious.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: Sunny]
    #14413245 - 05/07/11 12:00 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Im not really sure why you are bringing in energy, did somebody post something about energy here?  Nobody claimed time flows like energy.

Also, I wonder what the metaphor or analogy you are referencing is.  Its not an analogy to entropy, entropy defines a direction of time.  (Within the theories that entropy is relevant of course.)


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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: DieCommie]
    #14419044 - 05/08/11 11:10 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The arrow of time based on entropy provides for the possibility of ebbs in time because entropy, which is essentially the dial on the clock, can locally stop and move backwards. The system as a whole maintains the same overall rate of increasing entropy, but local areas within the system can halt or reverse entropy at the expense of the rest of the system, i.e. refrigerators, biomes, crystal formation, etc.

I'll try to stop being a smarmy asshat and approach this via syllogism-




1.The direction of the arrow of time is determined by increasing entropy;

2.In local system, entropy can halt or reverse;

3.Therefore, in local systems the arrow of time can halt or reverse

Is that clearer? Sorry, it's been a bad week for my temperament.


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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: crumblebum]
    #14419389 - 05/08/11 12:34 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

This is the problem I have with this argument:


Entropy may increase or decrease, but time still flows in the same direction. For example, if you put dye of 2 different colors into the same container you can watch them mix together over time. But if you played a movie of the same event backwards, it wouldn't make any sense, rather it wouldn't adhere to the laws of physics.

You can move energy back and forth as much as you want, But in order for you to even perceive the change, time must flow in the forward direction. You wouldn't even know Entropy were increasing or decreasing, if not for time.

There is another phenomena in physics which is similar to what you are talking about, but it still provides time with a given forward flow. Time dilation occurs in the presence of huge gravity wells, and supposedly when something is travelling at a significant portion of the speed of light.


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Edited by Sunny (05/08/11 12:42 PM)


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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: redgreenvines]
    #14451963 - 05/14/11 03:33 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
common sense does support the linear procession of moments in time very much like our physics model with time being a linear dimension.

but sense is particulate,
we only sense bits of things at a time.
so each moment is just some bit of sensation bouyed along in the stream of consciousness.

psychedelics impinge on the linear procession of time based effects by changing the physics of consciousness.

under the influence consciousness accommodates more time and space, and each moment's sensation pattern is accommodated for a much longer duration.
consequently time is no longer one dimensional when you are "strange".
instead
strands of time branch and layer, and you can watch the world stand still or movebackwards.

what has been altered is consciousness, and effectively the confinement of time to a single dimension.



oh shet: word. you know that that confinement, is truly confinement. Infinitesimal line of infinite proportion, stretching a line, so small it doesn't exist.


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:*::*::*:

To be what you want to become you must deny what you need to become.


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