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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


Registered: 04/24/07
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Time is on my mind
#14395572 - 05/03/11 05:42 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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The topic is Time.
Does time have a directional arrow? Meaning, is it possible to truly say that time is moving forward without implying that it can also move backward?
There's a lot of meat on this bone, what questions occur to you? What concepts about time seem to defy "common sense" or otherwise create a paradox?
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
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Well, for one, I don't see how time could begin. "Beginning" and "end" are terms that apply to events situated within time, in relation to other events. But, by definition of course, nothing could come before time, and nothing could come afterward.
So, if time is infinite, it could be either linear, or cyclical. If there are a limited number of events that occur within time, then it it is infinite in duration but not in size; we end up with a cyclical, eternally-recurring model. If there are an unlimited number of possible events that can occur, then it's like we're on an infinitely extending line, with no two things happening twice.
Here's an interesting article about time, and how it's basically just equivalent to physical change: http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-04-scientists-spacetime-dimension.html
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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I like scientific notions of time. The space-time model is cool, but so is the entropy arrow of time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_(arrow_of_time) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime
edit - Ha, I realize this is a lame response, just linking to wikipedia. Im not sure what else to write, I have wrote much about time here over the years. Too often I think, somebody enthusiastically posts something along the lines of "time is an just illusion!" with little substantiation or apparent study into the matter.
Ill just add that I really like the entropy interpretation of time. While relativity's space-time is more glamorous and occupies much of pop-science, I think the entropy interpretation more adequately models our personal and intuitive notion of time. It has been said that time is 'that which a clock measures'. But what does a clock measure as it winds down? In all cases, it measures the progression of entropy to a higher state. There are lots of great thoughts that go along with this (I like to consider my freezer as being a local time machine).
I am quite interested in the disparate qualities that relativistic and thermodynamic time have and often muse on the unification of the two.
Edited by DieCommie (05/03/11 06:20 PM)
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zoomfan
doubt 'er


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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: DieCommie]
#14397440 - 05/03/11 10:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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time is just another word for change, if nothing changed there would be no time. in regards to direction, what direction is change going? its kind of like asking what direction is the big bang. the only thing that gives time its direction is birth and death. relative to our birth were moving toward our death.
-------------------- Thinking is dreaming wake up and enjoy the dream.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: DieCommie]
#14398932 - 05/04/11 09:01 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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That's because saying "time is an illusion" is more a philosophical matter for most people, I don't really understand much about science but despite that it should be clear to see that the universe is akin to one big melting pot constantly evolving and reinventing itself.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Sunny
free-ballin



Registered: 10/07/06
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I used to believe time was illusory, because I could not travel through time in direction I chose. But that would be wrong, for the logic does not follow that of experience.
Time is liquid-fabric, just like space. It is possible to travel through time in any direction, but you and I can't do it. We are beings grounded to the first 4 dimensions of perception, therefore, unable to perceive the higher dimensions which would enable us free 4th dimensional travel.
To answer your first question: Time has a directional arrow for US, but not for all consciousness.
The oft cited paradox is that you can't travel back in time, without undoing the future. This is an incorrect assumption, you haven't undone the future, you've simple begun to travel in the 5th dimension, along another possible permutation of time.
Time as we perceive it, is a line, time however, when observed from the 6th dimension, would be a matrix of infinite size. So then, it exists in infinite inversions, and I'm sure in some instances, even exists in retrograde.
-------------------- WAFFLEZZ!!!11!!!1!!!1!!!!
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: Sunny]
#14400080 - 05/04/11 01:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Addressing the "entropy" arrow of time (which I quite like), given that entropy can be halted and reversed in small pockets at the expense of the whole, does this imply that time can also slow or reverse itself in pockets at the expense the rest of the universe happening faster?
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Sunny
free-ballin



Registered: 10/07/06
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Well, if time is a vast infinite matrix, then entropy is irrelevant. Of course there is past, present and future, however your perception of it is only relative to you. Because consciousness causes time, and matter to collapse relative to itself only.
So, in a nutshell, no. The rest of existence can't happen slower or faster, and time can't be reversed from your current position inside perception.
However, from another position, time is in fact moving in a retrograde inversion. But it doesn't matter, because we can't witness it.
Awesome mind-fuck, huh?
-------------------- WAFFLEZZ!!!11!!!1!!!1!!!!
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Sunny
free-ballin



Registered: 10/07/06
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What's really weird to think about is that some matter moves almost as fast time passes, there by appearing to slow time around it.
-------------------- WAFFLEZZ!!!11!!!1!!!1!!!!
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Brainstem
_@_y



Registered: 07/31/10
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Loc: In my shell
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Quote:
crumblebum said: The topic is Time.
Does time have a directional arrow? Meaning, is it possible to truly say that time is moving forward without implying that it can also move backward?
There's a lot of meat on this bone, what questions occur to you? What concepts about time seem to defy "common sense" or otherwise create a paradox?
Distance misconstrues time.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Quote:
crumblebum said: Addressing the "entropy" arrow of time (which I quite like), given that entropy can be halted and reversed in small pockets at the expense of the whole, does this imply that time can also slow or reverse itself in pockets at the expense the rest of the universe happening faster?
That is exactly what I meant when I wrote, "I like to consider my freezer as being a local time machine."
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


Registered: 04/24/07
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: DieCommie]
#14401174 - 05/04/11 05:56 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Ah, didn't see the edit till later, so I was just replying to the wiki entries.
Since we have always existed within a living system and since this living system is by definition one of those pockets of reversed entropy that works at the expense of the greater system, is it then true that humans have only ever experienced time in reverse?
That is, since the presence of life implies an area where entropy is locally inverted, do all living things exist in reverse time?
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iPRiSTiNE
Stranger
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: zoomfan]
#14401178 - 05/04/11 05:58 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
zoomfan said: time is just another word for change, if nothing changed there would be no time. in regards to direction, what direction is change going? its kind of like asking what direction is the big bang. the only thing that gives time its direction is birth and death. relative to our birth were moving toward our death.
I like that and after I read it considered all the small changes that happen in anyones life any at any point in time whether noticeable or not, while alot of large or semi large change can happen naturally and will incorporate more lifely influences people always seem to push it away or cancel it out to continue their own conceited mindset but may perhaps even be confused with concepts in their own life after a bit. When thought of in terms how a society usually goes about existing in extended periods of time or even short-term reminds me of a ticking time bomb of some sort dragging out the simple logic of things.
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: iPRiSTiNE] 1
#14401213 - 05/04/11 06:06 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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The problem with using macroscopic events to measure time is, on a microscopic level there is nothing to indicate time. Any event can happen in reverse, and there is nothing about the order of events that intrinsically implies they have to happen in a particular order.
That's what makes entropy such an elegant solution. It can happen in reverse, but only very locally. When enough of a system is considered, entropy will always increase in the same direction in time.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Its almost as if time is an emergent property, one that arises out of the very nature of large numbers and probability.
(Although, I may prefer to state that cause and effect the other way around...(If that makes any sense...))
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


Registered: 04/24/07
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: DieCommie]
#14401329 - 05/04/11 06:34 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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So time must be inferred to exist based on the patterns created by thermodynamic entropy? The law of large numbers, I'm only loosely seeing how it ties in? If you were to quantify the disorder of a system over time, it would show the average as a decline in order, is that it?
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Sunny
free-ballin



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Loc: on the magic bus
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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: DieCommie]
#14402223 - 05/04/11 09:19 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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You guys are talking about time like it's energy. It's not. It's not an emergent property either. I think you have both missed the point that time is an axis of travel, not a tangible item.
The Arrow of time concept doesn't imply the time may be slowed, or reversed, it implies that time moves in a single direction, or that it maybe described by a complex formula, like a chain of [if(){then()}] statements.
-------------------- WAFFLEZZ!!!11!!!1!!!1!!!!
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: Sunny]
#14402274 - 05/04/11 09:28 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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If it cannot be described in those terms, then it is irrelevant folk lore. That's the point you're missing.
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ssc18
Super Saiya-jin Android


Registered: 01/20/11
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Quote:
crumblebum said: The topic is Time.
Does time have a directional arrow? Meaning, is it possible to truly say that time is moving forward without implying that it can also move backward?
There's a lot of meat on this bone, what questions occur to you? What concepts about time seem to defy "common sense" or otherwise create a paradox?
TIme is moving like this _____ and also like this 0. It is moving linear fashion in a directional squiggle line compromised by nothing.
-------------------- :*: :*: :*:
To be what you want to become you must deny what you need to become.
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ssc18
Super Saiya-jin Android


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Re: Time is on my mind [Re: Sunny]
#14402289 - 05/04/11 09:32 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sunny said:

You guys are talking about time like it's energy. It's not. It's not an emergent property either. I think you have both missed the point that time is an axis of travel, not a tangible item.
The Arrow of time concept doesn't imply the time may be slowed, or reversed, it implies that time moves in a single direction, or that it maybe described by a complex formula, like a chain of [if(){then()}] statements.
Yes, and it is certainly in a "straight" line and also at the EXact same time it is moving along a circle. Which makes it move like a squiggle. But a squiggle is a straight line, because it is finite.
Such is finite.
Infinite is a perfect circle, and can be "grabbed" and "used" by finite.
Only a circle can create true infinitelinear time.
But done get me wrong, the whole purpose of "this" is to say, yes a circle can be attempted. And already exists.
A circle becomes too infinite. It disappears, and a finite representation is fluid moving energy.
WHICH IS WHY, I believe EVERYTHING comes from nothing.
-------------------- :*: :*: :*:
To be what you want to become you must deny what you need to become.
Edited by ssc18 (05/04/11 09:34 PM)
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