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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Chirality of Life [Re: g00ru] * 1
    #14368734 - 04/28/11 06:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

desires can indeed lead to pleasure but you can't just be a pleasure whore, otherwise you'll never get what you truly want




You must curb desire to get what you desire. Brilliant!



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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Chirality of Life [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14368741 - 04/28/11 06:49 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, I was gonna add that. :whistling:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: The Chirality of Life [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14368752 - 04/28/11 06:51 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

desires can indeed lead to pleasure but you can't just be a pleasure whore, otherwise you'll never get what you truly want




You must curb desire to get what you desire. Brilliant!






Herein lies the crux of everything that's wrong with buddhism. Enlightenment is considered to be the ultimate pleasure. It has nothing to do with actually looking at yourself in a realistic manner and everything to do with the chasing the rainbow.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Chirality of Life [Re: g00ru]
    #14369150 - 04/28/11 07:55 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

A person will be called to account on Judgment Day for every permissible thing he might have enjoyed but did not. -- The Talmud


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineNightingale
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Re: The Chirality of Life [Re: Diploid]
    #14369209 - 04/28/11 08:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

desires can indeed lead to pleasure but you can't just be a pleasure whore, otherwise you'll never get what you truly want




You must curb desire to get what you desire. Brilliant!






Herein lies the crux of everything that's wrong with buddhism. Enlightenment is considered to be the ultimate pleasure. It has nothing to do with actually looking at yourself in a realistic manner and everything to do with the chasing the rainbow.




    Enlightenment is not pleasure, it's bliss: there's a big difference. This is because it's not conventional "dumb smiley face" bliss, but the condition of absolute, unsullied being. This is what the Buddhists and other Hindus call the "Self" (Purusha, Brahmin). Their shtick is that they look at themselves in a realistic manner insofar as see that one's true Self is beyond of the ephemeral aspects of worldly life, though these aspects are included. Theoretically, one who is enlightened is perfectly able to participate in any pleasure of the world, but they are not bound by it, and in that way are unaffected by karma and can transcend samsara.

Quote:

Diploid said:
So think about this.

If you take something like a spring, say a slinky or the spring in a click-pen, and you hold it up and follow the spiral, it will have a "handedness". It will either turn clockwise or counter-clockwise (right handed or left handed).

The way it coils is called its chirality from the Greek Chiros meaning hand. You can't change the spring's chirality. It's an intrinsic property... part of it's basic construction. It's the same if you turn it up-side-down or look at it from another angle. It's why you can't shake your right hand with someone's left hand. But if you put the spring in front of a mirror and follow the coil in the mirror image, you'll find it's chirality reversed.

Now molecules are just a bunch of atoms stuck together. Like our spring, the molecules of some substances are stuck together in the form of a spiral, and like the spring, those molecules have chirality.

If you take a sample of something like concrete, glass, steel, rocks, and look closely, you'll find it to be composed of many different types of molecules and their chirality will be evenly distributed... 50% will be right-handed molecules and 50% will be left-handed. And in the case of concrete or glass, it doesn't matter. Right handed concrete molecules are just as good as left handed ones.

However, this is not so for biologically active substances. Many drug molecules consist of of both chiralities, and in some, only the right or left chiral is biologically active. Strangely, the other 50% of the pill goes right through you. In other cases, the right-hand molecule cures a disease but the left-hand molecule is a deadly poison.
                                       
Now this is where things get weird. If you look at a living thing, ALL the amino acids and proteins of which it's made have left-handed chirality. Even a huge protein like insulin composed of over 700 atoms in three chains has left-handed chirality. If it were right-handed, it would be completely inert. Right chiral insulin doesn't exist in nature.

DNA is chiral too. A single wrong-handed monomer out of billions of base pairs in human DNA would render it useless.

This is true of the smallest bacteria to the largest whale. It's true of wood, corn, and spaghetti. Even my cat is made of left-handed proteins.

By the way, there's no particular reason why life has to be left-chiral. On some other planet, life could just as likely have evolved with right-chirality, but if we ate the animals there, we'd be unable to use their proteins for nourishment.

Weird eh? What do you make of that?




My organic chem prof talked about this one time in class. His theory was that it had to do with selective decomposition of D-amino acids by sunlight, having been (partially) polarized by whatever was in the atmosphere. Fuck if I know :shrug:.


--------------------
Step 1: Look up at the stars
Step 2: Realize they must be Gods
Step 3: Know that you're the same

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Offlineg00ru
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Re: The Chirality of Life [Re: Diploid]
    #14369693 - 04/28/11 09:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

a lame desire would be the desire to eat a mcdonald's cheeseburger

and good deep desire would be the desire to practice guitar and good as shit at it.

of course there's nothing stopping you from eating a cheeseburger and then practicing guitar, but in reality it's not nearly as likely, and in fact the decision to indulge in eating that cheeseburger takes away a certain amount of your "drive" or "fire" because you're satiating yourself.  You gotta stay hungry to a certain degree.

Plenty of people realize their big desires while giving into their small lame ones also, but they have actually overcome the rule rather than disproved it.  And, they're suffering the consequences.  Desire really is suffering.  Romantic love is always going to turn into pain, if you haven't realized it yet.
Quote:

Diploid said:

A person will be called to account on Judgment Day for every permissible thing he might have enjoyed but did not. -- The Talmud




ya know im pretty sure that the original intent of this metaphysical statement was to mean that we all have opportunities or callings open to us in life, but some of us get distracted (by desire and the senses) and fail to take advantage of the opportunity.  I actually read in this new-agey book about reincarnation the exact same thing, that in the between life state we are forced to view our entire life and see the opportunities we missed.  But these are noble, truly higher callings, not stupid shit like little daily cravings which are only holding you back.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Talmud was very strangely translated due to its age...the Bible is sort of the same way.  It's all true but eastern sources tend to dish out the info in a much more direct and less obscure fashion.


--------------------
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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Chirality of Life [Re: g00ru] * 1
    #14371402 - 04/29/11 06:56 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
a lame desire would be the desire to eat a mcdonald's cheeseburger

and good deep desire would be the desire to practice guitar and good as shit at it.

of course there's nothing stopping you from eating a cheeseburger and then practicing guitar, but in reality it's not nearly as likely, and in fact the decision to indulge in eating that cheeseburger takes away a certain amount of your "drive" or "fire" because you're satiating yourself.


Really? You think eating a cheeseburger will take away my drive to play guitar? What evidence do you have for this?

How will satiating my hunger with a cheeseburger affect my guitar playing?


Quote:

guruu said:
Plenty of people realize their big desires while giving into their small lame ones also, but they have actually overcome the rule rather than disproved it.


What rule?


Quote:

guruu said:
And, they're suffering the consequences.


Like what?


Quote:

guruu said:
Desire really is suffering.


No it isn't; read a dictionary.


Quote:

guruu said:
Romantic love is always going to turn into pain, if you haven't realized it yet.


No, it doesn't necessarily have to.


Quote:

guruu said:
Quote:

Diploid said:

A person will be called to account on Judgment Day for every permissible thing he might have enjoyed but did not. -- The Talmud




ya know im pretty sure that the original intent of this metaphysical statement was to mean that we all have opportunities or callings open to us in life, but some of us get distracted (by desire and the senses) and fail to take advantage of the opportunity.  I actually read in this new-agey book about reincarnation the exact same thing, that in the between life state we are forced to view our entire life and see the opportunities we missed.  But these are noble, truly higher callings, not stupid shit like little daily cravings which are only holding you back.


Can you give an example of a "noble, truly higher calling"?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Chirality of Life [Re: g00ru] * 1
    #14371670 - 04/29/11 08:31 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

But these are noble, truly higher callings, not stupid shit like little daily cravings which are only holding you back

Oh man, what smarmy arrogance. You don't know anything about me and your presumptuous, ego-centric, and condescending assumptions about me put the lie to everything you preach.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: The Chirality of Life [Re: Diploid]
    #14374631 - 04/29/11 08:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

it seems pretty likely to me that he was using "you" as an indefinite article. it seems like you jumped at a reason to become self defensive. :shrug:

however, i was fascinated by your first post. where did you learn this about chirality?

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Offlineg00ru
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Re: The Chirality of Life [Re: Diploid]
    #14377037 - 04/30/11 11:07 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
But these are noble, truly higher callings, not stupid shit like little daily cravings which are only holding you back

Oh man, what smarmy arrogance. You don't know anything about me and your presumptuous, ego-centric, and condescending assumptions about me put the lie to everything you preach.




yeah, definitely speaking in generalizations, sounds like you turned that on yourself


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: The Chirality of Life [Re: Poid]
    #14377160 - 04/30/11 11:39 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

guruu said:
Desire really is suffering.


No it isn't; read a dictionary.




You just can't put that book down, can you?


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Chirality of Life [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14380083 - 04/30/11 10:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Was there any purpose to that post other than to criticize me? You've been making tons of posts like that lately, how very mature. :baby:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: The Chirality of Life [Re: g00ru]
    #14381567 - 05/01/11 07:35 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
because then you'd just be a fat homer simpson type person.




Isn't this ignoring the premise?

The whole idea is that the substance isn't as fattening as that which it replaces.  How do you justify your claim here? 

 


desires can indeed lead to pleasure but you can't just be a pleasure whore, otherwise you'll never get what you truly want deep down inside.





How do you justify this claim?

Are you saying what you "really want" (no true scotsman equivocation here?) is something you don't desire?  It seems difficult to see how indulgence in desired behavior limits your ability to achieve what you "really want" unless you somehow claim this is mutually exclusive with fulfilling desire by some unstated reasoning, and in any case, if what you want is something you desire, which would seem to be so by definition if achieved by the individual, then how could fulfilling desire by exclusive of achieving what you "really want"?


Quote:

guruu said:
Quote:

Diploid said:
But these are noble, truly higher callings, not stupid shit like little daily cravings which are only holding you back

Oh man, what smarmy arrogance. You don't know anything about me and your presumptuous, ego-centric, and condescending assumptions about me put the lie to everything you preach.




yeah, definitely speaking in generalizations, sounds like you turned that on yourself





How is using "you" in general any less arrogant, presumptuous, than using it to refer to Diploid?  It would seem a much easier task to know what is right for a particular person whom we have some understanding of than to say such for the greater part of humanity which we'll never know.

Quote:

Cannashroom said:
Well DNA bases actually don't have a R/L handedness like amino acids (they have multiple chiral centres).





Where are the multiple chiral centers on DNA bases?

I'm not visualizing it.

Either way, that the nucleoside has a particular stereochemistry, which was the point Diploid correctly made, and the chiral centers do indeed all have the same handedness.


Quote:

guruu said:
a lame desire would be the desire to eat a mcdonald's cheeseburger

and good deep desire would be the desire to practice guitar and good as shit at it.





How can you tell the difference between lame and deep desires?  What relevance does the distinction have?

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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: The Chirality of Life [Re: johnm214]
    #14381653 - 05/01/11 08:21 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

right, the fact that humans must prioritize their desires rather than follow every whim is such a difficult concept. for example, it isn't like you have never suppressed the desire to punch some idiot that has irked you in order to stay aligned with what you desire for yourself long-term. you guys are not making honest inquiries. you are arguing to be difficult.

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Offlineg00ru
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Re: The Chirality of Life [Re: Epigallo]
    #14381847 - 05/01/11 09:47 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

it's kind of like how coke zero, ultimately, isn't any healthier for you than normal coke, because even though there's not as many calories it still stimulates your body's craving for sugar, keeps you on that sugar craving treadmill, but doesn't even give you any calories at all, thus forcing your body to find them somewhere else (and it'll probably be through unhealthy sugar products, if experience is any indication).

I can't find the article right now, BUT I PROMISE IT EXISTS :raphael:


--------------------
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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: The Chirality of Life [Re: Poid]
    #14382041 - 05/01/11 10:57 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Was there any purpose to that post other than to criticize me? You've been making tons of posts like that lately, how very mature. :baby:




No criticism here, just a spontaneous observation. Thin-skinned much?


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: The Chirality of Life [Re: g00ru]
    #14386921 - 05/02/11 05:28 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
it's kind of like how coke zero, ultimately, isn't any healthier for you than normal coke, because even though there's not as many calories it still stimulates your body's craving for sugar, keeps you on that sugar craving treadmill, but doesn't even give you any calories at all, thus forcing your body to find them somewhere else (and it'll probably be through unhealthy sugar products, if experience is any indication).

I can't find the article right now, BUT I PROMISE IT EXISTS :raphael:





Your conclusions seem pretty difficult to support.  It is no revelation that sweetners, including non nutritive sweetners, can affect your physiology, but your claim that substituting non nutritive sweetners for normal sugars isn't more healthy is something that you cannot possibly support.  Type II diabetics with a limited capacity to metabolize sugar can indeed benefit from substituting aspartame and other non nutritive sweetners for sugar in their diet.  It can allow them some decrease in calorie consumption and more healthy blood sugar levels- lower levels and without the large rate-of-change values associated with simple sugars such as those contained in Coke.


Quote:

bradley said:
right, the fact that humans must prioritize their desires rather than follow every whim is such a difficult concept. for example, it isn't like you have never suppressed the desire to punch some idiot that has irked you in order to stay aligned with what you desire for yourself long-term. you guys are not making honest inquiries. you are arguing to be difficult.





Oh, well if you say so, with no explanation nor argument whatsoever, it must be true :thumbup:

Any further divinations about my intent can be kept to yourself- its irrelevant.

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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: The Chirality of Life [Re: johnm214]
    #14390737 - 05/02/11 07:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i gave an example in the second sentence dude. how many do you think you need?

if you maintain that an individual need not prioritize his desires, how many counterexamples do you require for it to be proven false? :strokebeard:

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OfflineSteezeMonkey
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Re: The Chirality of Life [Re: Epigallo]
    #14390788 - 05/02/11 07:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Good read, thanks.

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Offlineelliusoopius
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Re: The Chirality of Life [Re: SteezeMonkey]
    #14395524 - 05/03/11 05:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Interesting stuff about the chirality, thanks!

reminds me of how everyone's wondering why the universe is made out of matter instead of antimatter.


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