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OfflineSS32
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Registered: 07/27/09
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Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function
    #14395153 - 05/03/11 04:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-05-ecstasy-chronic-brain-function.html

Quote:

the illegal "rave" drug that produces feelings of euphoria and emotional warmth – has been in the news recently as a potential therapeutic. Clinical trials are testing Ecstasy in the treatment of post-traumatic stress disorder.

But headlines like one in Time magazine's health section in February – "Ecstasy as therapy: have some of its negative effects been overblown?" – concern Ronald Cowan, M.D., Ph.D., associate professor of Psychiatry.

His team reports in the May issue of Neuropsychopharmacology that recreational Ecstasy use is associated with a chronic change in brain function.

"There's tension in the fields of psychiatry and psychotherapy between those who think Ecstasy could be a valuable therapeutic that's not being tested because of overblown fears, and those who are concerned about the drug's potentially harmful effects," Cowan said.

"We're not on one side or the other; we're just trying to find out what's going on in the brain – is there any evidence for long-lasting changes in the brain?"

The message in news reports needs to be accurate, Cowan said. His team's studies suggest that the current message should be: "If you use Ecstasy recreationally, the more you use, the more brain changes you get."

Cowan and his colleagues examined brain activation during visual stimulation, using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI), in subjects who had previously used Ecstasy (but not in the two weeks prior to imaging) and in subjects who had not previously used Ecstasy.

They found increased brain activation in three brain areas associated with visual processing in Ecstasy users with the highest lifetime exposure to the drug. The findings were consistent with the investigators' predictions based on results from animal models: that Ecstasy use is associated with a loss of serotonin signaling, which leads to hyper-excitability (increased activation) in the brain.

The hyper-excitability suggests a loss in brain efficiency, Cowan said, "meaning that it takes more brain area to process information or perform a task."

The investigators found that this shift in brain excitability did not return to normal in subjects who had not used Ecstasy in more than a year.

"We think this shift in cortical excitability may be chronic, long-lasting, and even permanent, which is a real worry," Cowan said, noting that the Ecstasy users in the study are young (18 to 35 years old). "The question is what will happen to their brains as they age over the next 60 years."

Cowan said that the pattern of hyper-excitability is similar to that observed in fMRI studies of individuals at risk for, or with early, Alzheimer's disease.

"I'm not saying that these people are at increased risk for dementia, but that there's a loss of brain efficiency in both recreational Ecstasy use and early Alzheimer's."

The findings suggest that brain hyper-excitability (increased activation in fMRI scans) may be a useful biomarker for Ecstasy-induced neurotoxicity, which the investigators will continue to study.

"Our goal is to be able to let people know whether or not the drug is causing long-term brain damage," Cowan said. "That's really critical because millions of people are using it."

The 2009 National Survey on Drug Use and Health estimated that 14.2 million individuals 12 years or older in the United States had used Ecstasy in their lifetime; 760,000 people had used Ecstasy in the month prior to being surveyed.

Cowan is also interested in determining the doses of Ecstasy that are toxic, and whether there are genetic vulnerabilities to toxicity. If clinical trials show that the drug has therapeutic benefits, it's critical to know the risks, he said.

Provided by Vanderbilt University Medical Center




--------------------
Did he dream about dragons? Did he dream about deer? Did he whisper  he names of friends who were near?
What songs did they play, and how far away? Why did he whisper, why did she scream?
What does the sound of a screen door mean?
Who talks on the hill? Who goes to the cellar, can you feel the chill? Where does the river, when will the wind?
How far are the mountains? Where do they end? Why would the church?
Did the service begin? Tell me who died, and tell me who cried.
Help me hide in the skin of a deer, my zippered-up bag in the mouth of a stag so swiftly I go through rows of does,
it flows, it flows, it flows, it flows all over the hill where the green grass grows.

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Offlinepiracetam
bioanalytical chemist
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Registered: 05/03/08
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: SS32]
    #14395209 - 05/03/11 04:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

can't say that surprises me, there is unequivocal evidence showing fine axon erosion in the raphi nuclei of
a recreational MDMA user


and yet naysayers who live in denial claim "only street ecstacy is harmful", or "that study was flawed
because they mistakenly gave the rats meth".
:rolleyes:


--------------------
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck

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OfflineTritium
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: SS32]
    #14395216 - 05/03/11 04:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I respect this man, because he seems like he genuinely wants to do this for science. More studies need to be impartial. Any scientist in any other field wouldn't hesitate to disregard a study done by a blatantly biased group, which many government studies on drugs are.

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OfflineLoveYourLife
MDMA


Registered: 08/05/09
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: Tritium] * 1
    #14395247 - 05/03/11 04:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Plenty of people who have been using MDMA since the 80's aren't noticeably damaged whatsoever. I wouldn't doubt it at all if it has some negative effects on the brain, but they don't seem to be very extreme.

I've used it many many times and honestly don't feel any different then I ever did.

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InvisibleThe Whale

Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: LoveYourLife]
    #14395286 - 05/03/11 04:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Beyond the question of neurotoxicity is the extent of the damage, if it exists. I would trade my chronic depression and PTSD in exchange for a little forgetfulness any day.


--------------------

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Offlinedoeboy99
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: The Whale]
    #14395341 - 05/03/11 04:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Interesting study.  Your claim

"Plenty of people who have been using MDMA since the 80's aren't noticeably damaged whatsoever. I wouldn't doubt it at all if it has some negative effects on the brain, but they don't seem to be very extreme.

I've used it many many times and honestly don't feel any different then I ever did."

is really hard to quantify.. I know people that aren't the same and I know others I interpret as the same.  Problem is that use isn't like breaking your arm which you notice right away its more subliminal than that so what you think is normal now may not have been normal for you before since your brain has slowly changed unlike something such as an immediate injury.  I think occasional use as long as its not consistent is perfectly fine as there are plenty of poisons we already absorb in our surroundings like pesticides and fluoride.  I certainly wouldn't recommend people using this everyday or every other day.  Moderation is important so you don't fall into the trap that chemical dependence does with drugs.  Hell if I smoke pot for a few days then stop I get depressed for a day then its gone.

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OfflineSpiderbaby
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: piracetam] * 1
    #14395402 - 05/03/11 05:05 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Some studies do suggest mdma does decrease the quantity of serotonergic axon terminals, like this one http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10366642

but the dosage given in the above study was 5mg/kg twice per day for 4 days, in a human of average weight (70kg) that would translate to about 350mg twice per day for 4 days. Here is the damage done to axons, the left is untreated, the middle is two weeks after treatment, the right is seven years after treatment which suggests mdma does lasting damage in high doses.



However studies using dosages and dosing patterns more similar to what humans use (Etards probably dont count for this) suggest no major and no lasting damage with moderate use, for example this paper Behavioral and neurochemical consequences of long-term intravenous self-administration of MDMA and its enantiomers by rhesus monkeys.

I dont think mdma is harmless, it likely does do damage in large amounts but there are many other drugs doing us much more damage, alcohol, tobacco etc. Even though i dont think it is completly harmless i am happy to dose myself with it in reasonable doses and not too often

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OfflineMycjunky
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Registered: 07/25/09
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: Spiderbaby]
    #14395463 - 05/03/11 05:18 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

That is way to much MDMA. I mean I guess it's interesting to know and I've known people who over do it to that extent but the vast majority don't.

I can say for sure that I notice a little bit of depression after doing MDMA a couple weekends in a row, but that goes away within a week.

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OfflineLed Zeppelin
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Registered: 05/17/10
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: Mycjunky]
    #14395608 - 05/03/11 05:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

theyre testing people that used street ecstasy. dont they understand that street x is impure? theyre using these kinds of studies to decide if its worth the risk to use MDMA therapeutically, but theyre basing data off of people who used impure mdma. IMO this makes a big difference. and even if the difference is minimal, this is not the way they should decide if MDMA is useful in therapy, which I believe it is.

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Offlinepiracetam
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: Led Zeppelin]
    #14395649 - 05/03/11 05:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Led Zeppelin said:
theyre testing people that used street ecstasy. dont they understand that street x is impure? theyre using these kinds of studies to decide if its worth the risk to use MDMA therapeutically, but theyre basing data off of people who used impure mdma. IMO this makes a big difference. and even if the difference is minimal, this is not the way they should decide if MDMA is useful in therapy, which I believe it is.





perfect example of a denial-type response

what part of "mdma is neurotoxic" do you not understand? even molly will damage said neurons.
the oxidative damage it imparts is inherent to the molecule itself, not just impurities.


--------------------
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck

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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: piracetam]
    #14396217 - 05/03/11 07:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The hyper-excitability suggests a loss in brain efficiency, Cowan said, "meaning that it takes more brain area to process information or perform a task."

The investigators found that this shift in brain excitability did not return to normal in subjects who had not used Ecstasy in more than a year.




wouldn't that depend on how long and how much the person used ecstacy before stopping? it doesn't really say anything about that.

Quote:

I respect this man, because he seems like he genuinely wants to do this for science. More studies need to be impartial. Any scientist in any other field wouldn't hesitate to disregard a study done by a blatantly biased group, which many government studies on drugs are.




how do you know he is unbiased, just because he says so, also how do you know the study wasn't funded by the government?


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

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InvisibleI R Crankey
bang bang choo choo
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Registered: 01/03/10
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: piracetam]
    #14396274 - 05/03/11 07:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

it's kind of hard to tell what substance is causing this damage when it's cut to shit, especially one that's NOTORIOUS for being cut, and/or sold as MDMA even when it's something else entirely.
doing drugs from an untrusted source is dumb enough, but basing studies on drugs from these shitty sources... well that's just fucking stupid.

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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: I R Crankey]
    #14396339 - 05/03/11 07:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

not to mention there's studies saying it doesn't cause any damage, so how do you know which to believe?

here's a study funded by the national institute on drug abuse from two months ago

Quote:


Study chief Doctor John Halpern MD said ‘ecstasy users in the new study showed no signs of cognitive impairment attributable to drug use’ adding ‘ecstasy use did not decrease mental ability.’

Instead Doctor Halpern blamed the dangers associated with ecstasy on its illegality and warned that using it currently remains potentially risky.

“Illegally-made pills can contain harmful contaminants,” the Dr pointed out, “There are no warning labels, there is no medical supervision, and in rare cases people are physically harmed and even die from overdosing. It is important for drug-abuse information to be accurate.”



http://www.trackitdown.net/news/show/104274.html


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

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OfflineiPRiSTiNE
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Registered: 03/05/11
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: SS32]
    #14396527 - 05/03/11 08:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Effects of ecstasy aren't nearly as hard to interpret as people make it seem to be. If your semi informed about drugs and what gets put into your body then you would know that ecstasy has very strong and enjoyable effects which means you should know its a powerful chemical. cocaine, heroin, meth, opium, and PCP are some popular drugs also with powerful effects (taken more seriously because of their image) but will alter your mentality (common being depression/anxiety) and cause permanent brain damage (brain holes!) why would ecstasy be any different? And the fact that it depletes all your serotonin when used means if used constantly or at unnecessary  doses (over 100mg/more than once, twice a month if even) its going to try and suck out your nonexistent serotonin levels which i would guess that the place of transfer for that would get harmed. Most americans can't even manage their diet though so it all really comes with no surprise of the ignorance involved with ecstasy (ravers don't help anything either).

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OfflineiPRiSTiNE
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: bigmike7104]
    #14396664 - 05/03/11 08:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bigmike7104 said:
not to mention there's studies saying it doesn't cause any damage, so how do you know which to believe?

here's a study funded by the national institute on drug abuse from two months ago

Quote:


Study chief Doctor John Halpern MD said ‘ecstasy users in the new study showed no signs of cognitive impairment attributable to drug use’ adding ‘ecstasy use did not decrease mental ability.’

Instead Doctor Halpern blamed the dangers associated with ecstasy on its illegality and warned that using it currently remains potentially risky.

“Illegally-made pills can contain harmful contaminants,” the Dr pointed out, “There are no warning labels, there is no medical supervision, and in rare cases people are physically harmed and even die from overdosing. It is important for drug-abuse information to be accurate.”



http://www.trackitdown.net/news/show/104274.html




Then whoever conducted this study isn't very intelligible on the subject considering this is also different for every person and how their brain works, including another barrage of variables i dont want to go over. But all that peoples different levels of brain function would effect is how fast it takes to have its definite effects. Its obscene to say ecstasy at the least doesn't alter mental ability, first thing is it depletes your serotonin and being happy is a mental ability which if is more nonexistent, then your cognitive function will worsen faster. Anyone that has had a 100mg dose of mdma knows it will fuck you up amazingly and after awhile of use any drug (even weed) can cause less communication between your brain hemispheres then your front temporal lobe will function less (which is in charge of your decisions and cognitive activity) which then just leaves the back of your brain which is in charge of memory, seeing, and hearing everything. Simple drug facts..drug - mind altering substance or any article, other than food, intended to affect the structure or any function of the body of humans or other animals.

Edited by iPRiSTiNE (05/03/11 08:40 PM)

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OfflineLoveYourLife
MDMA


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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: iPRiSTiNE] * 1
    #14396673 - 05/03/11 08:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

iPRiSTiNE said:
Effects of ecstasy aren't nearly as hard to interpret as people make it seem to be. If your semi informed about drugs and what gets put into your body then you would know that ecstasy has very strong and enjoyable effects which means you should know its a powerful chemical. cocaine, heroin, meth, opium, and PCP are some popular drugs also with powerful effects (taken more seriously because of their image) but will alter your mentality (common being depression/anxiety) and cause permanent brain damage (brain holes!) why would ecstasy be any different? And the fact that it depletes all your serotonin when used means if used constantly or at unnecessary  doses (over 100mg/more than once, twice a month if even) its going to try and suck out your nonexistent serotonin levels which i would guess that the place of transfer for that would get harmed. Most americans can't even manage their diet though so it all really comes with no surprise of the ignorance involved with ecstasy (ravers don't help anything either).




Please tell me you aren't serious.  You can't just lump every drug into one category and go 'SEE, this drug causes damage, so this one must too' .. that's just plain retarded and illogical.  You should work for the DEA.

& did you seriously say brain holes?  Please don't post any more input on drugs, people DO read this stuff and take it seriously.

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OfflineLoveYourLife
MDMA


Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 2,076
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Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: LoveYourLife] * 1
    #14396687 - 05/03/11 08:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Oh and HOLY SHIT.  Did you say the effects of ecstasy aren't hard to interpret?


WOWWWWW


WHAT THE FUCK.


They aren't hard to interpret, yet we have some of the best neurological scientists in the entire world telling us that they don't even know what the fuck is going on with it in the brain?

Yeah, I'll be sure to take your advice, since I'm sure you have plenty of education in neuroscience.

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OfflineiPRiSTiNE
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: LoveYourLife]
    #14396740 - 05/03/11 08:47 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I just explained as much neuroscience as needed in the post above yours, if you need to know neuron firing is what does all the communicating in your brain for this. Your a common Etard though so unless you begin to compile a better argument than mine then I won't feel the need to give a better response to your ignorant idiotic behavior. I've even had a  multitude of personal experience with ravers from colorado at my old treatment center and still meet more when i visit. And with the intensity involved with the euphoria of ecstasy alone its hilarious how anyone can begin to think a chemical of that stregnth won't have any effect AT ALL on you, abuse the hell out of it and have a good time while your at it but save up a little money to have your brain scanned at the doctors when you feel ready. Ill enjoy using a pure 75 mg dose with 75 mg of MDA (way better) once to twice a month if i even feel like it or am not terribly busy with my life.

Edited by iPRiSTiNE (05/03/11 08:55 PM)

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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: LoveYourLife]
    #14396774 - 05/03/11 08:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Then whoever conducted this study isn't very intelligible on the subject considering this is also different for every person and how their brain works, including another barrage of variables i dont want to go over.




so your saying you can't come up with any conclusions regarding ecstasy?

also people's brains don't function as exactly the same as the next person, but in general they function the same way.

Quote:


And the fact that it depletes all your serotonin when used means if used constantly or at unnecessary  doses




yea if used too much, but it doesn't mean it won't go back to normal, it just means it will take longer compared to someone who does it less.
neuroplasticity is a proven concept
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroplasticity

Quote:


and after awhile of use any drug (even weed) can cause less communication between your brain hemispheres then your front temporal lobe will function less (which is in charge of your decisions and cognitive activity) which then just leaves the back of your brain which is in charge of memory, seeing, and hearing everything




you got a peer-reviewed source for that? that goes for the brain holes too

Quote:

multitude of personal experience with ravers from colorado at my old treatment center and still meet more when i visit.




since when is personal experience used as a basis of fact?


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

Edited by bigmike7104 (05/03/11 09:00 PM)

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OfflineLoveYourLife
MDMA


Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 2,076
Loc: Cincinnati
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: iPRiSTiNE]
    #14396858 - 05/03/11 09:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

iPRiSTiNE said:
I just explained as much neuroscience as needed in the post above yours, if you need to know neuron firing is what does all the communicating in your brain for this. Your a common Etard though so unless you begin to compile a better argument than mine then I won't feel the need to give a better response to your ignorant idiotic behavior. I've even had a  multitude of personal experience with ravers from colorado at my old treatment center and still meet more when i visit. And with the intensity involved with the euphoria of ecstasy alone its hilarious how anyone can begin to think a chemical of that stregnth won't have any effect AT ALL on you, abuse the hell out of it and have a good time while your at it but save up a little money to have your brain scanned at the doctors when you feel ready. Ill enjoy using a pure 75 mg dose with 75 mg of MDA (way better) once to twice a month if i even feel like it or am not terribly busy with my life.




You didn't explain shit.  All you did was give a brief overview of basic neurological function that I learned in high school and my freshmen year of college.  Congratulations, I hope you feel good about yourself trying to sound smart when in reality you look like even more of dumbass for trying to summarize something that is still in debate by the top scientists in the world. 

It's cool though, keep using your confirmation bias to seek out information based on the opinion you've already made in your head. 

I think I'll wait until some better information comes out before I make my final judgement :facepalm:

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