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Offlinezappaisgod
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Was bin Laden executed to spare Holder?
    #14395338 - 05/03/11 04:52 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

Now make no mistake I believe that the sanction of bin Laden, with extreme prejudice, was an excellent idea.  I also believe it was entirely at odds with any previously asserted Obama policy as elucidated and executed by Eric Holder who began with a strict interpretation of Miranda rights and demanded terror trials at Ground Zero.  Consider this:
http://althouse.blogspot.com/2011/05/eric-holder-asked-but-wont-answer.html

   
Quote:

“That’s a hypothetical. I’m not sure it’s particularly relevant,” Holder said in response to a question from Rep. Dan Lungren (R-Calif.)....

    “I think it’s fair to ask, since you opposed a military trial for Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, whether you would have opposed a military trial for Osama bin Laden,” Lungren said.

    Again declining to answer, Holder said that his position on military tribunals has often been mischaracterized. He noted that, on the same day in November 2009 that he announced a civilian trial for Mohammed, he announced that five other detainees would get military trials.

    “I think our military commissions, especially since they’ve been modified, are constitutional and can give fair trials,” he said.

    Holder also pushed back against another line of questioning from Lungren, about whether information provided by detainees who underwent “enhanced interrogation techniques” like waterboarding contributed to finding bin Laden. Holder said there was “a mosaic of sources” of intelligence, and he did not go into details.

The failure to answer speaks for itself. To me, it says that he considers it wrong/illegal but wants it done anyway. Wants it done, but doesn't want to be the one to say "do it."

ADDED: Let's remember that last month, after Obama announced that KSM would be tried before a military commission in Guantanamo, that Eric Holder was adamant about the correctness his original decision to try him in federal court in Manhattan. He blamed Congress for making it impossible to do that, and he basically stomped out of the room when asked about it.

And in March, 2010, Holder avoided the question of how he'd deal with a captured bin Laden: "The reality is that we will be reading Miranda rights to the corpse of Osama Bin Laden - he will never appear in an American courtroom." Pushed, he got angry:

    When Rep. John Culberson (R-Tex.) said that if Bin Laden himself were arrested, it would be absurd to give him the same due process afforded Manson, Holder erupted.

    Charges he coddles terrorists get his "blood boiling," the attorney general conceded....

    Holder repeated - slowly - to the Texas congressman that "the possibility simply does not exist" that Bin Laden will ever be arraigned in any court....

    "The possibility of capturing him alive is infinitesimal - he will be killed by us or he will be killed by his own people," Holder said.

So... was bin Laden shot because he resisted — the official story — or because a live, captured bin Laden would have torn the Obama administration apart?






The story has changed somewhat since the initial reports that had bin Laden wielding a weapon while hiding behind a woman.  Now we are hearing he was found alone and may not have had a chance at all.  Which suits the fuck out of me but stands completely at odds with previously expressed Obama administration and specifically Holder policy regarding terror suspects, i.e. that they get Mirandized.  Was bin Laden Mirandized.  As the story has unfolded so far it seems like they could have snagged him alive if they had wanted to.  Why the shift?  Was it to avoid a political shitstorm?  Given the fact that it now appears that Bush's policy of nastiness in black sites was instrumental in capturing the dick and that Obama has declared them impermissible could political considerations have overcome principled ones?  Not that I subscribe to the principle, but you either have them or you don't.  And when is the racist cunt Holder going to just fucking go away?


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InvisibleMe_Roy
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Re: Was bin Laden executed to spare Holder? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14395433 - 05/03/11 05:13 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

I think you're on to something here. When the woman ran at the SEALs they could have easily shot her and kept their eyes on OBL. 

I don't know if I've ever agreed with you before -- and I'm not certain that I ever will again.

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InvisibleMe_Roy
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Re: Was bin Laden executed to spare Holder? [Re: Me_Roy]
    #14395446 - 05/03/11 05:15 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

I should clarify:  I don't think they shot OBL with Holder in mind.  I do think your breakdown of the situation is convincing.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Was bin Laden executed to spare Holder? [Re: Me_Roy]
    #14395567 - 05/03/11 05:41 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Me_Roy said:
I should clarify:  I don't think they shot OBL with Holder in mind.  I do think your breakdown of the situation is convincing.



I think those might have been their orders.


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InvisibleMe_Roy
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Re: Was bin Laden executed to spare Holder? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14397196 - 05/03/11 10:07 PM (13 years, 18 days ago)

I agree that they were in more of a mood to shoot, rather than to pull out the handcuffs and hood. 

I agree that SEALs probably don't get to do much on their own volition in a situation like this -- they were probably ordered to have itchy trigger fingers.

And I agree that these orders were probably in the name of juridical expediency -- i.e. not having to resort to anything juridical at all.

But I don't see this as having been to save Holder's ass.  It was definitely to prevent another rock vs. hard place situation, but I have a hard time believing that it was intended to help him, personally, save face. 

I dunno, I guess we're saying the same thing.  I call it a potential legal problem, you call it Holder.  "Same difference," as they say, right?

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Was bin Laden executed to spare Holder? [Re: Me_Roy]
    #14399371 - 05/04/11 10:59 AM (13 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Me_Roy said:
I agree that they were in more of a mood to shoot, rather than to pull out the handcuffs and hood. 

I agree that SEALs probably don't get to do much on their own volition in a situation like this -- they were probably ordered to have itchy trigger fingers.

And I agree that these orders were probably in the name of juridical expediency -- i.e. not having to resort to anything juridical at all.

But I don't see this as having been to save Holder's ass.  It was definitely to prevent another rock vs. hard place situation, but I have a hard time believing that it was intended to help him, personally, save face. 

I dunno, I guess we're saying the same thing.  I call it a potential legal problem, you call it Holder.  "Same difference," as they say, right?



I don't think they were "in the mood to shoot".  I think those were their orders.  And yes, Holder would be the head of the Justice Department and would have a monstrous headache on his hands if Osama was captured and put on trial.  I do believe that they ordered his execution to avoid any of this liberal weenie nonsense that have painted themselves into a corner to accept. 


You know what would really be cool?  If the kill and the burial were false but we have him salted away in a black site.  I get chills thinking how delicious that would be.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Was bin Laden executed to spare Holder? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14399394 - 05/04/11 11:07 AM (13 years, 18 days ago)

> I don't think they were "in the mood to shoot".  I think those were their orders.

I would agree.  I can picture the briefing, "We would prefer a dead body over a live prisoner."

> You know what would really be cool?  If the kill and the burial were false but we have him salted away in a black site.

That would be a clever twist, but given that one of his wives apparently witnessed him taking a bullet to the head, and that they left her in Pakistan, it I find it highly unlikely.  Still, it is a nice thought...


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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Was bin Laden executed to spare Holder? [Re: Seuss]
    #14400855 - 05/04/11 04:36 PM (13 years, 18 days ago)

Who gives a shit?  He's dead.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Was bin Laden executed to spare Holder? [Re: TGRR]
    #14401379 - 05/04/11 06:47 PM (13 years, 18 days ago)

> Who gives a shit?  He's dead.

Apparently a bunch of the human rights activists give a shit, as they are screaming bloody murder (literally)... something about assassinating a defenseless unarmed man in cold blood on foreign soil without a trial, blah blah blah.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Was bin Laden executed to spare Holder? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14427776 - 05/10/11 12:46 AM (13 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You know what would really be cool?  If the kill and the burial were false but we have him salted away in a black site.  I get chills thinking how delicious that would be.


:rofl2:


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It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Invisiblegzuf
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Re: Was bin Laden executed to spare Holder? [Re: Poid]
    #14427849 - 05/10/11 01:17 AM (13 years, 12 days ago)

They might have been sent to kill him, he might of went for a weapon. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he was killed because it would be a complete media clusterfuck let alone politically and practically, people trying perhaps martyring themselves attempting to free Uncle Binbin and all that shit. It could've been shoot on sight from the beginning, though I can't say I really care, either. It's interesting but either way, the guy is dead. I could believe he went for a gun too because he didn't want that. I'm more willing to bet we'll never know the full story, at least in the immediate future. Not that it really matters too much, in my opinion. Dude's dead, dude.

It's pretty obvious by now that Obama has continued much of Bush's policies he decried during election. I suppose it has a little to do with that nasty "What I would do" vs "What I ended up actually doing" amnesia politicians get.


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Edited by gzuf (05/10/11 01:37 AM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Was bin Laden executed to spare Holder? [Re: gzuf]
    #14428917 - 05/10/11 09:06 AM (13 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

gzuf said:
They might have been sent to kill him, he might of went for a weapon. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he was killed because it would be a complete media clusterfuck let alone politically and practically, people trying perhaps martyring themselves attempting to free Uncle Binbin and all that shit. It could've been shoot on sight from the beginning, though I can't say I really care, either. It's interesting but either way, the guy is dead. I could believe he went for a gun too because he didn't want that. I'm more willing to bet we'll never know the full story, at least in the immediate future. Not that it really matters too much, in my opinion. Dude's dead, dude.

It's pretty obvious by now that Obama has continued much of Bush's policies he decried during election. I suppose it has a little to do with that nasty "What I would do" vs "What I ended up actually doing" amnesia politicians get.



http://www.nationalreview.com/campaign-spot/266608/motivational-poster-george-w-bushs-library

Quote:

In case the font is too small, the words at the bottom are: “VINDICATION: When the loudest critic of your policies achieves his greatest success because of them.”




Actually I think McCain was a louder critic on the campaign trail but you didn't hear that.

Here's some things with Obama and his campaign promises:
1.  The guy had never governed in his life.  Nothing.  Zip.  Nada.  He had no idea what was involved.
2.  I'm not sure he gives a shit about anything much other than affirmative action and socialism.  Anything he said about anything else was campaign palaver.  It meant nothing to him so he had no internal issues with flipping.
3.  Most of his voters didn't really give a shit, either.  They said they did but in the end he was just the trendy pick.  I think that is about as much thought as most of them gave to it.


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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: Was bin Laden executed to spare Holder? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14445544 - 05/13/11 01:30 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

This thread reeks of conspiracy theory. I know of an appropriate forum it could be moved to.


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Edited by SWEDEN (05/13/11 01:46 PM)

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Was bin Laden executed to spare Holder? [Re: SWEDEN]
    #14446653 - 05/13/11 05:11 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

> This thread reeks of conspiracy theory.

Not really.  The original post asked a question regarding the validity of a thesis.  Conspiracy theories claim correctness of a thesis without allowing questions regarding validity.  Pretty big difference between the two.  Had the OP claimed that OBL was killed to spare Holder, and then started attacking the character of anybody that attempted to disagree, then you would be correct in labeling this a conspiracy theory.


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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: Was bin Laden executed to spare Holder? [Re: Seuss]
    #14446711 - 05/13/11 05:21 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

So if I made a thread that posited the question: "Do reptilians shape-shifted into humans control our government?" in the Pub, that topic would not be moved because it was posted in the form of a question?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Was bin Laden executed to spare Holder? [Re: SWEDEN]
    #14447074 - 05/13/11 06:35 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

We are getting off topic... you should probably PM one of the moderators of the pub if you are unsure of the rules for that forum.  In general, the no-conspiracy-theory rule for political discussion is to weed out the conspiracy theory topics that have been discussed over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and (or more to the point) to prevent trolls from derailing topics to advocate their favorite popular conspiracy theory.  For the most part, we really just want to facilitate discussion.  Rambling on about chem trails, lizard people, Bush did it, etc, whilst citing Youtube videos as proof, is not conducive to intelligent discussion.  I'm sure the conspiracy theory folks would disagree, which is why they have a nice little corner all of their own to play.


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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: Was bin Laden executed to spare Holder? [Re: Seuss]
    #14449584 - 05/14/11 03:49 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

I am aware of the rules, no need for coddling.
It just seems like you are playing favorites here. The topic of this thread is obviously a conspiracy theory; that it has not been brought up before doesn't change the fact that it's in the wrong forum. Should you (or any mod) decide to only move conspiracy threads you happen to disagree with, that is your call but it's a ridiculous double standard. I know this isn't a democracy and I don't really have a final say, but this exception to the rule strikes me as odd. At least now I know that if I have my own little theory I can post it here without fear of repercussions.


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InvisibleMe_Roy
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Re: Was bin Laden executed to spare Holder? [Re: SWEDEN]
    #14451059 - 05/14/11 12:26 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Jeez, I don't think that this is conspiracy theory at all and I might be the most conspiracy theory-phobic person on these boards!

This thread poses a question about current events and the motivations of the people who drive them.  It's not the least bit far-fetched to posit that they may have wanted to shoot the fucker in the face when the gov't is conducting predator drone strikes on a daily basis.  Obviously, a dead Bin Laden is easier for the U.S. legal system to handle than a captured one.  Asking whose interests that serves is not (necessarily) conspiracy theory -- unless you assume those persons are shape-shifting reptilians.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Was bin Laden executed to spare Holder? [Re: Me_Roy]
    #14451075 - 05/14/11 12:28 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Me_Roy said:
Jeez, I don't think that this is conspiracy theory at all and I might be the most conspiracy theory-phobic person on these boards!

This thread poses a question about current events and the motivations of the people who drive them.  It's not the least bit far-fetched to posit that they may have wanted to shoot the fucker in the face when the gov't is conducting predator drone strikes on a daily basis.  Obviously, a dead Bin Laden is easier for the U.S. legal system to handle than a captured one.  Asking whose interests that serves is not (necessarily) conspiracy theory -- unless you assume those persons are shape-shifting reptilians.



:thumbup:Post of the day.  Apparently there is a cavalcade of dingbats who think any discussion of motivation necessarily entails a "conspiracy theory".


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