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SS32
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Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function
#14395153 - 05/03/11 04:16 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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http://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-05-ecstasy-chronic-brain-function.html
Quote:
the illegal "rave" drug that produces feelings of euphoria and emotional warmth – has been in the news recently as a potential therapeutic. Clinical trials are testing Ecstasy in the treatment of post-traumatic stress disorder.
But headlines like one in Time magazine's health section in February – "Ecstasy as therapy: have some of its negative effects been overblown?" – concern Ronald Cowan, M.D., Ph.D., associate professor of Psychiatry.
His team reports in the May issue of Neuropsychopharmacology that recreational Ecstasy use is associated with a chronic change in brain function.
"There's tension in the fields of psychiatry and psychotherapy between those who think Ecstasy could be a valuable therapeutic that's not being tested because of overblown fears, and those who are concerned about the drug's potentially harmful effects," Cowan said.
"We're not on one side or the other; we're just trying to find out what's going on in the brain – is there any evidence for long-lasting changes in the brain?"
The message in news reports needs to be accurate, Cowan said. His team's studies suggest that the current message should be: "If you use Ecstasy recreationally, the more you use, the more brain changes you get."
Cowan and his colleagues examined brain activation during visual stimulation, using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI), in subjects who had previously used Ecstasy (but not in the two weeks prior to imaging) and in subjects who had not previously used Ecstasy.
They found increased brain activation in three brain areas associated with visual processing in Ecstasy users with the highest lifetime exposure to the drug. The findings were consistent with the investigators' predictions based on results from animal models: that Ecstasy use is associated with a loss of serotonin signaling, which leads to hyper-excitability (increased activation) in the brain.
The hyper-excitability suggests a loss in brain efficiency, Cowan said, "meaning that it takes more brain area to process information or perform a task."
The investigators found that this shift in brain excitability did not return to normal in subjects who had not used Ecstasy in more than a year.
"We think this shift in cortical excitability may be chronic, long-lasting, and even permanent, which is a real worry," Cowan said, noting that the Ecstasy users in the study are young (18 to 35 years old). "The question is what will happen to their brains as they age over the next 60 years."
Cowan said that the pattern of hyper-excitability is similar to that observed in fMRI studies of individuals at risk for, or with early, Alzheimer's disease.
"I'm not saying that these people are at increased risk for dementia, but that there's a loss of brain efficiency in both recreational Ecstasy use and early Alzheimer's."
The findings suggest that brain hyper-excitability (increased activation in fMRI scans) may be a useful biomarker for Ecstasy-induced neurotoxicity, which the investigators will continue to study.
"Our goal is to be able to let people know whether or not the drug is causing long-term brain damage," Cowan said. "That's really critical because millions of people are using it."
The 2009 National Survey on Drug Use and Health estimated that 14.2 million individuals 12 years or older in the United States had used Ecstasy in their lifetime; 760,000 people had used Ecstasy in the month prior to being surveyed.
Cowan is also interested in determining the doses of Ecstasy that are toxic, and whether there are genetic vulnerabilities to toxicity. If clinical trials show that the drug has therapeutic benefits, it's critical to know the risks, he said.
Provided by Vanderbilt University Medical Center
-------------------- Did he dream about dragons? Did he dream about deer? Did he whisper he names of friends who were near? What songs did they play, and how far away? Why did he whisper, why did she scream? What does the sound of a screen door mean? Who talks on the hill? Who goes to the cellar, can you feel the chill? Where does the river, when will the wind? How far are the mountains? Where do they end? Why would the church? Did the service begin? Tell me who died, and tell me who cried. Help me hide in the skin of a deer, my zippered-up bag in the mouth of a stag so swiftly I go through rows of does, it flows, it flows, it flows, it flows all over the hill where the green grass grows.
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piracetam
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: SS32]
#14395209 - 05/03/11 04:28 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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can't say that surprises me, there is unequivocal evidence showing fine axon erosion in the raphi nuclei of a recreational MDMA user
and yet naysayers who live in denial claim "only street ecstacy is harmful", or "that study was flawed because they mistakenly gave the rats meth".
-------------------- "Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck
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Tritium



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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: SS32]
#14395216 - 05/03/11 04:29 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I respect this man, because he seems like he genuinely wants to do this for science. More studies need to be impartial. Any scientist in any other field wouldn't hesitate to disregard a study done by a blatantly biased group, which many government studies on drugs are.
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LoveYourLife
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: Tritium] 1
#14395247 - 05/03/11 04:36 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Plenty of people who have been using MDMA since the 80's aren't noticeably damaged whatsoever. I wouldn't doubt it at all if it has some negative effects on the brain, but they don't seem to be very extreme.
I've used it many many times and honestly don't feel any different then I ever did.
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The Whale

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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: LoveYourLife]
#14395286 - 05/03/11 04:43 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Beyond the question of neurotoxicity is the extent of the damage, if it exists. I would trade my chronic depression and PTSD in exchange for a little forgetfulness any day.
--------------------
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doeboy99
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: The Whale]
#14395341 - 05/03/11 04:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Interesting study. Your claim
"Plenty of people who have been using MDMA since the 80's aren't noticeably damaged whatsoever. I wouldn't doubt it at all if it has some negative effects on the brain, but they don't seem to be very extreme.
I've used it many many times and honestly don't feel any different then I ever did."
is really hard to quantify.. I know people that aren't the same and I know others I interpret as the same. Problem is that use isn't like breaking your arm which you notice right away its more subliminal than that so what you think is normal now may not have been normal for you before since your brain has slowly changed unlike something such as an immediate injury. I think occasional use as long as its not consistent is perfectly fine as there are plenty of poisons we already absorb in our surroundings like pesticides and fluoride. I certainly wouldn't recommend people using this everyday or every other day. Moderation is important so you don't fall into the trap that chemical dependence does with drugs. Hell if I smoke pot for a few days then stop I get depressed for a day then its gone.
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Spiderbaby
?



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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: piracetam] 1
#14395402 - 05/03/11 05:05 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Some studies do suggest mdma does decrease the quantity of serotonergic axon terminals, like this one http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10366642
but the dosage given in the above study was 5mg/kg twice per day for 4 days, in a human of average weight (70kg) that would translate to about 350mg twice per day for 4 days. Here is the damage done to axons, the left is untreated, the middle is two weeks after treatment, the right is seven years after treatment which suggests mdma does lasting damage in high doses.

However studies using dosages and dosing patterns more similar to what humans use (Etards probably dont count for this) suggest no major and no lasting damage with moderate use, for example this paper Behavioral and neurochemical consequences of long-term intravenous self-administration of MDMA and its enantiomers by rhesus monkeys.
I dont think mdma is harmless, it likely does do damage in large amounts but there are many other drugs doing us much more damage, alcohol, tobacco etc. Even though i dont think it is completly harmless i am happy to dose myself with it in reasonable doses and not too often
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Mycjunky
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: Spiderbaby]
#14395463 - 05/03/11 05:18 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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That is way to much MDMA. I mean I guess it's interesting to know and I've known people who over do it to that extent but the vast majority don't.
I can say for sure that I notice a little bit of depression after doing MDMA a couple weekends in a row, but that goes away within a week.
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Led Zeppelin
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: Mycjunky]
#14395608 - 05/03/11 05:50 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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theyre testing people that used street ecstasy. dont they understand that street x is impure? theyre using these kinds of studies to decide if its worth the risk to use MDMA therapeutically, but theyre basing data off of people who used impure mdma. IMO this makes a big difference. and even if the difference is minimal, this is not the way they should decide if MDMA is useful in therapy, which I believe it is.
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piracetam
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: Led Zeppelin]
#14395649 - 05/03/11 05:59 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Led Zeppelin said: theyre testing people that used street ecstasy. dont they understand that street x is impure? theyre using these kinds of studies to decide if its worth the risk to use MDMA therapeutically, but theyre basing data off of people who used impure mdma. IMO this makes a big difference. and even if the difference is minimal, this is not the way they should decide if MDMA is useful in therapy, which I believe it is.
perfect example of a denial-type response
what part of "mdma is neurotoxic" do you not understand? even molly will damage said neurons. the oxidative damage it imparts is inherent to the molecule itself, not just impurities.
-------------------- "Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck
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bigmike7104
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: piracetam]
#14396217 - 05/03/11 07:19 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
The hyper-excitability suggests a loss in brain efficiency, Cowan said, "meaning that it takes more brain area to process information or perform a task."
The investigators found that this shift in brain excitability did not return to normal in subjects who had not used Ecstasy in more than a year.
wouldn't that depend on how long and how much the person used ecstacy before stopping? it doesn't really say anything about that.
Quote:
I respect this man, because he seems like he genuinely wants to do this for science. More studies need to be impartial. Any scientist in any other field wouldn't hesitate to disregard a study done by a blatantly biased group, which many government studies on drugs are.
how do you know he is unbiased, just because he says so, also how do you know the study wasn't funded by the government?
-------------------- Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
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I R Crankey
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: piracetam]
#14396274 - 05/03/11 07:29 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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it's kind of hard to tell what substance is causing this damage when it's cut to shit, especially one that's NOTORIOUS for being cut, and/or sold as MDMA even when it's something else entirely. doing drugs from an untrusted source is dumb enough, but basing studies on drugs from these shitty sources... well that's just fucking stupid.
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bigmike7104
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: I R Crankey]
#14396339 - 05/03/11 07:39 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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not to mention there's studies saying it doesn't cause any damage, so how do you know which to believe?
here's a study funded by the national institute on drug abuse from two months ago
Quote:
Study chief Doctor John Halpern MD said ‘ecstasy users in the new study showed no signs of cognitive impairment attributable to drug use’ adding ‘ecstasy use did not decrease mental ability.’
Instead Doctor Halpern blamed the dangers associated with ecstasy on its illegality and warned that using it currently remains potentially risky.
“Illegally-made pills can contain harmful contaminants,” the Dr pointed out, “There are no warning labels, there is no medical supervision, and in rare cases people are physically harmed and even die from overdosing. It is important for drug-abuse information to be accurate.”
http://www.trackitdown.net/news/show/104274.html
-------------------- Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
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iPRiSTiNE
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: SS32]
#14396527 - 05/03/11 08:08 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Effects of ecstasy aren't nearly as hard to interpret as people make it seem to be. If your semi informed about drugs and what gets put into your body then you would know that ecstasy has very strong and enjoyable effects which means you should know its a powerful chemical. cocaine, heroin, meth, opium, and PCP are some popular drugs also with powerful effects (taken more seriously because of their image) but will alter your mentality (common being depression/anxiety) and cause permanent brain damage (brain holes!) why would ecstasy be any different? And the fact that it depletes all your serotonin when used means if used constantly or at unnecessary doses (over 100mg/more than once, twice a month if even) its going to try and suck out your nonexistent serotonin levels which i would guess that the place of transfer for that would get harmed. Most americans can't even manage their diet though so it all really comes with no surprise of the ignorance involved with ecstasy (ravers don't help anything either).
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iPRiSTiNE
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: bigmike7104]
#14396664 - 05/03/11 08:36 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
bigmike7104 said: not to mention there's studies saying it doesn't cause any damage, so how do you know which to believe?
here's a study funded by the national institute on drug abuse from two months ago
Quote:
Study chief Doctor John Halpern MD said ‘ecstasy users in the new study showed no signs of cognitive impairment attributable to drug use’ adding ‘ecstasy use did not decrease mental ability.’
Instead Doctor Halpern blamed the dangers associated with ecstasy on its illegality and warned that using it currently remains potentially risky.
“Illegally-made pills can contain harmful contaminants,” the Dr pointed out, “There are no warning labels, there is no medical supervision, and in rare cases people are physically harmed and even die from overdosing. It is important for drug-abuse information to be accurate.”
http://www.trackitdown.net/news/show/104274.html
Then whoever conducted this study isn't very intelligible on the subject considering this is also different for every person and how their brain works, including another barrage of variables i dont want to go over. But all that peoples different levels of brain function would effect is how fast it takes to have its definite effects. Its obscene to say ecstasy at the least doesn't alter mental ability, first thing is it depletes your serotonin and being happy is a mental ability which if is more nonexistent, then your cognitive function will worsen faster. Anyone that has had a 100mg dose of mdma knows it will fuck you up amazingly and after awhile of use any drug (even weed) can cause less communication between your brain hemispheres then your front temporal lobe will function less (which is in charge of your decisions and cognitive activity) which then just leaves the back of your brain which is in charge of memory, seeing, and hearing everything. Simple drug facts..drug - mind altering substance or any article, other than food, intended to affect the structure or any function of the body of humans or other animals.
Edited by iPRiSTiNE (05/03/11 08:40 PM)
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LoveYourLife
MDMA


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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: iPRiSTiNE] 1
#14396673 - 05/03/11 08:36 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
iPRiSTiNE said: Effects of ecstasy aren't nearly as hard to interpret as people make it seem to be. If your semi informed about drugs and what gets put into your body then you would know that ecstasy has very strong and enjoyable effects which means you should know its a powerful chemical. cocaine, heroin, meth, opium, and PCP are some popular drugs also with powerful effects (taken more seriously because of their image) but will alter your mentality (common being depression/anxiety) and cause permanent brain damage (brain holes!) why would ecstasy be any different? And the fact that it depletes all your serotonin when used means if used constantly or at unnecessary doses (over 100mg/more than once, twice a month if even) its going to try and suck out your nonexistent serotonin levels which i would guess that the place of transfer for that would get harmed. Most americans can't even manage their diet though so it all really comes with no surprise of the ignorance involved with ecstasy (ravers don't help anything either).
Please tell me you aren't serious. You can't just lump every drug into one category and go 'SEE, this drug causes damage, so this one must too' .. that's just plain retarded and illogical. You should work for the DEA.
& did you seriously say brain holes? Please don't post any more input on drugs, people DO read this stuff and take it seriously.
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LoveYourLife
MDMA


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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: LoveYourLife] 1
#14396687 - 05/03/11 08:39 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Oh and HOLY SHIT. Did you say the effects of ecstasy aren't hard to interpret?
WOWWWWW
WHAT THE FUCK.
They aren't hard to interpret, yet we have some of the best neurological scientists in the entire world telling us that they don't even know what the fuck is going on with it in the brain?
Yeah, I'll be sure to take your advice, since I'm sure you have plenty of education in neuroscience.
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iPRiSTiNE
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: LoveYourLife]
#14396740 - 05/03/11 08:47 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I just explained as much neuroscience as needed in the post above yours, if you need to know neuron firing is what does all the communicating in your brain for this. Your a common Etard though so unless you begin to compile a better argument than mine then I won't feel the need to give a better response to your ignorant idiotic behavior. I've even had a multitude of personal experience with ravers from colorado at my old treatment center and still meet more when i visit. And with the intensity involved with the euphoria of ecstasy alone its hilarious how anyone can begin to think a chemical of that stregnth won't have any effect AT ALL on you, abuse the hell out of it and have a good time while your at it but save up a little money to have your brain scanned at the doctors when you feel ready. Ill enjoy using a pure 75 mg dose with 75 mg of MDA (way better) once to twice a month if i even feel like it or am not terribly busy with my life.
Edited by iPRiSTiNE (05/03/11 08:55 PM)
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bigmike7104
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: LoveYourLife]
#14396774 - 05/03/11 08:54 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Then whoever conducted this study isn't very intelligible on the subject considering this is also different for every person and how their brain works, including another barrage of variables i dont want to go over.
so your saying you can't come up with any conclusions regarding ecstasy?
also people's brains don't function as exactly the same as the next person, but in general they function the same way.
Quote:
And the fact that it depletes all your serotonin when used means if used constantly or at unnecessary doses
yea if used too much, but it doesn't mean it won't go back to normal, it just means it will take longer compared to someone who does it less. neuroplasticity is a proven concept http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroplasticity
Quote:
and after awhile of use any drug (even weed) can cause less communication between your brain hemispheres then your front temporal lobe will function less (which is in charge of your decisions and cognitive activity) which then just leaves the back of your brain which is in charge of memory, seeing, and hearing everything
you got a peer-reviewed source for that? that goes for the brain holes too
Quote:
multitude of personal experience with ravers from colorado at my old treatment center and still meet more when i visit.
since when is personal experience used as a basis of fact?
-------------------- Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
Edited by bigmike7104 (05/03/11 09:00 PM)
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LoveYourLife
MDMA


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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: iPRiSTiNE]
#14396858 - 05/03/11 09:09 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
iPRiSTiNE said: I just explained as much neuroscience as needed in the post above yours, if you need to know neuron firing is what does all the communicating in your brain for this. Your a common Etard though so unless you begin to compile a better argument than mine then I won't feel the need to give a better response to your ignorant idiotic behavior. I've even had a multitude of personal experience with ravers from colorado at my old treatment center and still meet more when i visit. And with the intensity involved with the euphoria of ecstasy alone its hilarious how anyone can begin to think a chemical of that stregnth won't have any effect AT ALL on you, abuse the hell out of it and have a good time while your at it but save up a little money to have your brain scanned at the doctors when you feel ready. Ill enjoy using a pure 75 mg dose with 75 mg of MDA (way better) once to twice a month if i even feel like it or am not terribly busy with my life.
You didn't explain shit. All you did was give a brief overview of basic neurological function that I learned in high school and my freshmen year of college. Congratulations, I hope you feel good about yourself trying to sound smart when in reality you look like even more of dumbass for trying to summarize something that is still in debate by the top scientists in the world.
It's cool though, keep using your confirmation bias to seek out information based on the opinion you've already made in your head.
I think I'll wait until some better information comes out before I make my final judgement
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iPRiSTiNE
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: bigmike7104]
#14396879 - 05/03/11 09:13 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
bigmike7104 said:
Quote:
Then whoever conducted this study isn't very intelligible on the subject considering this is also different for every person and how their brain works, including another barrage of variables i dont want to go over.
so your saying you can't come up with any conclusions regarding ecstasy?
What else would you like me to come up with?
also people's brains don't function as exactly the same as the next person, but in general they function the same way.
I mentioned this and generally everyone's brain is at least a little different than anothers.
Quote:
And the fact that it depletes all your serotonin when used means if used constantly or at unnecessary doses
yea if used too much, but it doesn't mean it won't go back to normal, it just means it will take longer compared to someone who does it less. neuroplasticity is a proven concept http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroplasticity
Yes your brain can go back to normal but there can be permanent damage with most drugs, which doesn't ruin your life but if enough accumulates it will have an important effect on you. explain the basic concept and the importance of neuroplasticity to me if you could. Single ecs use will deplete a considerable amount if not all of your serotonin and yes you would have to use it somewhat frequently to begin to experience this effect. Kinda sounds to me like you take drugs a little lightly, you don't have to come up with exact scientific results to be intelligible about drugs..The fact that 90% of what the government releases about drugs is propaganda doesn't help.
Quote:
and after awhile of use any drug (even weed) can cause less communication between your brain hemispheres then your front temporal lobe will function less (which is in charge of your decisions and cognitive activity) which then just leaves the back of your brain which is in charge of memory, seeing, and hearing everything
you got a peer-reviewed source for that?
You could have just looked it up on the internet and found out its true. I know alot more on any of this topics and drugs than the average american or drug user. I actually do have peers that could prove it but that question was also a huge fucking joke.
Quote:
multitude of personal experience with ravers from colorado at my old treatment center and still meet more when i visit.
since when is personal experience used as a basis of fact?
Im just trying to say I can produce more evidence from real people than anything you can read about online trust me or not its your damn choice, im just glad i know and can say what is and isnt when i want.
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Konyap


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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: LoveYourLife]
#14396890 - 05/03/11 09:15 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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i got a good dicksuck in a restroom stall for some extacy and all I could help noticing was the braaaaaaIIN.
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LoveYourLife
MDMA


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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: iPRiSTiNE]
#14396897 - 05/03/11 09:15 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Dude, just shut the fuck up already. If you don't have the evidence to present to us than we don't care about your half assed opinions.
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iPRiSTiNE
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: LoveYourLife]
#14396905 - 05/03/11 09:16 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
LoveYourLife said:
Quote:
iPRiSTiNE said: I just explained as much neuroscience as needed in the post above yours, if you need to know neuron firing is what does all the communicating in your brain for this. Your a common Etard though so unless you begin to compile a better argument than mine then I won't feel the need to give a better response to your ignorant idiotic behavior. I've even had a multitude of personal experience with ravers from colorado at my old treatment center and still meet more when i visit. And with the intensity involved with the euphoria of ecstasy alone its hilarious how anyone can begin to think a chemical of that stregnth won't have any effect AT ALL on you, abuse the hell out of it and have a good time while your at it but save up a little money to have your brain scanned at the doctors when you feel ready. Ill enjoy using a pure 75 mg dose with 75 mg of MDA (way better) once to twice a month if i even feel like it or am not terribly busy with my life.
You didn't explain shit. All you did was give a brief overview of basic neurological function that I learned in high school and my freshmen year of college. Congratulations, I hope you feel good about yourself trying to sound smart when in reality you look like even more of dumbass for trying to summarize something that is still in debate by the top scientists in the world.
It's cool though, keep using your confirmation bias to seek out information based on the opinion you've already made in your head.
I think I'll wait until some better information comes out before I make my final judgement 
Okay good job for somewhat showing your on the same level of paying attention in school as I am but regardless I've compared sober peoples behavior with heavy ecstasy users and have also seen peoples own charts that shows a hole or holes in their brain from raving/mdma use. But what the hell ever Etards just dont eat ridiculous or even semi consistent amounts of ecstasy, you can claim to not know the truth to whether ecstasy effects the brain and that its such a huge mystery that needs to be solved. tell me what you find in even 10 years and there still will be conflicting scientific studys and a tip: i find it useful to find out any facts about anything on my own and conduct my own personal studys on most stuff to be actually informed on something. There's alot of ignorant people out there.
Edited by iPRiSTiNE (05/03/11 09:23 PM)
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LoveYourLife
MDMA


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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: iPRiSTiNE]
#14396921 - 05/03/11 09:19 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
iPRiSTiNE said:
Quote:
LoveYourLife said:
Quote:
iPRiSTiNE said: I just explained as much neuroscience as needed in the post above yours, if you need to know neuron firing is what does all the communicating in your brain for this. Your a common Etard though so unless you begin to compile a better argument than mine then I won't feel the need to give a better response to your ignorant idiotic behavior. I've even had a multitude of personal experience with ravers from colorado at my old treatment center and still meet more when i visit. And with the intensity involved with the euphoria of ecstasy alone its hilarious how anyone can begin to think a chemical of that stregnth won't have any effect AT ALL on you, abuse the hell out of it and have a good time while your at it but save up a little money to have your brain scanned at the doctors when you feel ready. Ill enjoy using a pure 75 mg dose with 75 mg of MDA (way better) once to twice a month if i even feel like it or am not terribly busy with my life.
You didn't explain shit. All you did was give a brief overview of basic neurological function that I learned in high school and my freshmen year of college. Congratulations, I hope you feel good about yourself trying to sound smart when in reality you look like even more of dumbass for trying to summarize something that is still in debate by the top scientists in the world.
It's cool though, keep using your confirmation bias to seek out information based on the opinion you've already made in your head.
I think I'll wait until some better information comes out before I make my final judgement 
Okay good job for somewhat showing your on the same level of paying attention in school as I am but regardless I've compared sober peoples behavior with heavy ecstasy users and have also seen peoples own charts that shows a hole or holes in their brain from raving/mdma use.
You're trolling right? If you are seriously talking about the NIDA brain images that showed "holes" in the brain, I'm about to make you look really.. really fucking stupid.
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LoveYourLife
MDMA


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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: LoveYourLife]
#14396938 - 05/03/11 09:23 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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LOL ITS YOUR BRAIN ON ECSTASY! SEE DA HOLES?!
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piracetam
bioanalytical chemist


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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: LoveYourLife]
#14396941 - 05/03/11 09:24 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
LoveYourLife said:
I think I'll wait until some better information comes out before I make my final judgement 
already has.
check chapter 10. (Serotonin) of 'The Biochemical Basis for Neuropharmocology, 8th Ed.' (Oxford press). no gov't propaganda there, just evidence and references.
Quote:
"Fine axons with small varicosities originate from the dorsal raphe nuclei, and beaded axons with large spherical varicosities arise from the median raphe nuclei. These two types of 5-HT-containing axon have different regional and laminar distributions and appear to be differentially sensitive to the neurotoxic effects of certain amphetamine derivatives, including 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA), referred to more commonly as "ecstasy." The fine axons are much more sensitive to the neurotoxic effects than the beaded axons, and the loss of fine axons lasts for months and may be permanent. Beaded axons appear to be resistant and remain unaffected following neurotoxic treatment with MDMA. This finding may be relevant to human studies, which have indicated that individuals using MDMA as a recreational drug may be exposed to dosages approximating those shown to exhibit serotonin neurotoxicity in nonhuman primates. A 26% decrease in the serotonin metabolite 5-HIAA was observed in the cerebrospinal fluid of MDMA users. This indirect evidence of a decrease in serotonin turnover in the brain perhaps reflects destruction or compromised function of this fine serotonin-containing axon system. Further studies of MDMA users seem warranted and could provide important information on the effects of selective loss of this fine axon system in humans. At present, the functional roles played by the fine and beaded axon systems and whether the functions are distinct or similar remain unclear. In serial section analysis of 5-HT terminals in the primate visual cortex, the fine and fat boutons appeared to coexist in the same axon, arguing against distinct 5-HT innervation of this brain region."
your opinion means sh!t.
-------------------- "Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck
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withoutawire
hi

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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: LoveYourLife]
#14396956 - 05/03/11 09:26 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Pristine-
You have NO idea what you are talking about.
Not to mention drugs don't put holes in your brain is the first obvious thing I am going to mention that's wrong with everything you said.
You also did not prove or back up anything. All you did was explain some VERY basic things about how drugs work. What does that matter at all?
Quote:
. Ill enjoy using a pure 75 mg dose with 75 mg of MDA (way better) once to twice a month if i even feel like it or am not terribly busy with my life.
LOL your name should be I-Pretentious.
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LoveYourLife
MDMA


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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: piracetam]
#14396984 - 05/03/11 09:31 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
piracetam said:
Quote:
LoveYourLife said:
I think I'll wait until some better information comes out before I make my final judgement 
already has.
check chapter 10. (Serotonin) of 'The Biochemical Basis for Neuropharmocology, 8th Ed.' (Oxford press). no gov't propaganda there, just evidence and references.
your opinion means sh!t.
I never claimed Ecstasy doesn't cause damage, in all likelihood it probably does to some degree, as I stated earlier. I am not disagreeing with you on that. The fact is that we really don't know anything for sure, as a 100% fact. We have some studies claiming one direction and others claiming a completely different one.
If you are honestly making a positive decision on something that has EXTREME variables and very limited research, you probably should reconsider that.
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iPRiSTiNE
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: LoveYourLife]
#14397016 - 05/03/11 09:37 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well tell me how do you think a drug like this with such overwhelming effects does nothing negative to you considering many years of constant pot smoking will make your brain look different? (E is a little bit stronger..) You think its even questionable that ecstasy does nothing to you? I think very much the opposite and ive interpreted what i think about alot of drugs and dont see how its such a huge question with ecs which also just doesnt make sense to me with all the users ive met in person and what theyre like. My 2 cents.
Btw I would never think college studies involve government propoganda nonethless any dealing with our government.
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piracetam
bioanalytical chemist


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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: LoveYourLife]
#14397020 - 05/03/11 09:38 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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there is a direct correlation between extensive MDMA use and depleted metabolites, and plasticity is probably moot. in those who've extensively abused the drug, the axonal damage would have progressed to the point where regeneration is not possible.
this is no longer the speculative issue of the 90's, where denial was rampant, there is clear evidence of it. what isn't clear is the extent of function loss in lateral areas
-------------------- "Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck
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LoveYourLife
MDMA


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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: piracetam]
#14397060 - 05/03/11 09:44 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
iPRiSTiNE said: Well tell me how do you think a drug like this with such overwhelming effects does nothing negative to you considering many years of constant pot smoking will make your brain look different? (E is a little bit stronger..) You think its even questionable that ecstasy does nothing to you? I think very much the opposite and ive interpreted what i think about alot of drugs and dont see how its such a huge question with ecs which also just doesnt make sense to me with all the users ive met in person and what theyre like. My 2 cents.
Btw I would never think college studies involve government propoganda nonethless any dealing with our government.
Dude, your interpretations of things don't mean shit. One of the first rules of science is that correlation does not equal causation. I'd really like to see this study of yours that shows marijuana has lasting effects on the brain. No seriously, show it to me.
Quote:
piracetam said: there is a direct correlation between extensive MDMA use and depleted metabolites, and plasticity is probably moot. in those who've extensively abused the drug, the axonal damage would have progressed to the point where regeneration is not possible.
This I would agree with.
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bigmike7104
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: piracetam]
#14397071 - 05/03/11 09:46 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Im just trying to say I can produce more evidence from real people than anything you can read about online trust me or not its your damn choice, im just glad i know and can say what is and isnt when i want.
so you know more about ecstasy than brain experts doing research? and how do you these real people weren't using other drugs, or that they didn't have problems before using, or that they never returned to normal?
Quote:
already has.
check chapter 10. (Serotonin) of 'The Biochemical Basis for Neuropharmocology, 8th Ed.' (Oxford press). no gov't propaganda there, just evidence and references.
just because references are mentioned in a textbook, doesn't mean the studies weren't funded by the government. also like i showed before, some studies are showing permanent changes, while others aren't.
Quote:
this is no longer the speculative issue of the 90's, where denial was rampant, there is clear evidence of it.
there's also evidence of the opposite.
also from the study i posted
Quote:
“As well as the actual pill-poppers, the non-using control group were also apparently "members of the 'rave' subculture,’ the statement said, “And thus repeatedly exposed to sleep and fluid deprivation from all-night dancing - factors that themselves can produce long-lasting cognitive effects
how are you so sure this isn't what's causing the effects on the brain?
Quote:
I'd really like to see this study of yours that shows marijuana has lasting effects on the brain. No seriously, show it to me.
actually there is, but there are studies that show there isn't any too
-------------------- Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
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piracetam
bioanalytical chemist


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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: bigmike7104]
#14397099 - 05/03/11 09:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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inherent side-effects from the drug's use, the actual damage is resulting from excitotoxicity from excessive signal transduction. like I said, measuring the loss of metabolites and axons in the raphe nuclei is a strong indicator of cause-effect relationship, and we can have a circular argument all you want. the evidence purely suggests causality. if you guys want to play the neuroplasticity card, fine...but it only works to an extent. abusing any drug can have irreversible consequences, and the same is true for mdma, even without the "dirty" additives
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LoveYourLife
MDMA


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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: bigmike7104]
#14397165 - 05/03/11 10:01 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
bigmike7104 said:
actually there is, but there are studies that show there isn't any too
I know that already, I said I wanted to see his study from which he is basing his expert opinion.
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piracetam
bioanalytical chemist


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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: LoveYourLife]
#14397195 - 05/03/11 10:07 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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-------------------- "Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck
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bigmike7104
Stranger

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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: piracetam]
#14397293 - 05/03/11 10:28 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
piracetam said: inherent side-effects from the drug's use, the actual damage is resulting from excitotoxicity from excessive signal transduction. like I said, measuring the loss of metabolites and axons in the raphe nuclei is a strong indicator of cause-effect relationship, and we can have a circular argument all you want. the evidence purely suggests causality. if you guys want to play the neuroplasticity card, fine...but it only works to an extent. abusing any drug can have irreversible consequences, and the same is true for mdma, even without the "dirty" additives
but again, what about the studies contradicting that. how are you so sure that this study is right? or that sleep deprivation is not the cause of the effects?
btw i never even tried ecstasy before so i have no bias
also i find it hard to believe that years after recovery plasticity can't turn a brain back to normal. obviously i could be wrong, but when i read stuff like this
Quote:
woke up after spending 19 years in a minimally conscious state. When scientists scanned his brain combining PET (Positron Emission Tomography) and DTI (Diffusion Tensor Imaging) technologies, they found evidence that Wallis’s brain had “developed new pathways and completely novel anatomical structures to re-establish functional connections, compensating for the brain pathways lost in the accident” (New Scientist, 03/07/2006).
it's hard to believe, especially with an extreme example like above
-------------------- Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
Edited by bigmike7104 (05/03/11 10:35 PM)
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Konyap


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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: bigmike7104]
#14397438 - 05/03/11 10:50 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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certain receptors never recover as much as they could and you're talking about a organ with nothing to do rather then a altered pattern of molecular fusions....
or some shit...
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Led Zeppelin
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: piracetam]
#14397602 - 05/03/11 11:21 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
piracetam said:
Quote:
Led Zeppelin said: theyre testing people that used street ecstasy. dont they understand that street x is impure? theyre using these kinds of studies to decide if its worth the risk to use MDMA therapeutically, but theyre basing data off of people who used impure mdma. IMO this makes a big difference. and even if the difference is minimal, this is not the way they should decide if MDMA is useful in therapy, which I believe it is.
perfect example of a denial-type response
what part of "mdma is neurotoxic" do you not understand? even molly will damage said neurons. the oxidative damage it imparts is inherent to the molecule itself, not just impurities.
woah hold on bro. no where in my post did I say that MDMA is not neurotoxic. I was just saying that the method here is flawed. theyre scanning peoples brains that have used ecstasy before but theyve also probably used countless other drugs as well. ecstasy is probably the most impure drug on the street imo.
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Spiderbaby
?



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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: Led Zeppelin]
#14398227 - 05/04/11 03:24 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Led Zeppelin said: theyre testing people that used street ecstasy. dont they understand that street x is impure? theyre using these kinds of studies to decide if its worth the risk to use MDMA therapeutically, but theyre basing data off of people who used impure mdma. IMO this makes a big difference. and even if the difference is minimal, this is not the way they should decide if MDMA is useful in therapy, which I believe it is.
I worked in a lab specialising in SERT research last year, the mdma we use and the mdma used in these studies is pharmaceutical grade as in >98% pure
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Beanhead
IS IRONIC PARADOX


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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: iPRiSTiNE]
#14398301 - 05/04/11 04:26 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
iPRiSTiNE said: I just explained as much neuroscience as needed in the post above yours, if you need to know neuron firing is what does all the communicating in your brain for this. Your a common Etard though so unless you begin to compile a better argument than mine then I won't feel the need to give a better response to your ignorant idiotic behavior. I've even had a multitude of personal experience with ravers from colorado at my old treatment center and still meet more when i visit. And with the intensity involved with the euphoria of ecstasy alone its hilarious how anyone can begin to think a chemical of that stregnth won't have any effect AT ALL on you, abuse the hell out of it and have a good time while your at it but save up a little money to have your brain scanned at the doctors when you feel ready. Ill enjoy using a pure 75 mg dose with 75 mg of MDA (way better) once to twice a month if i even feel like it or am not terribly busy with my life.
MDA is even more toxic.
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Dave Bowman
Albert Hoffmans Apprentice




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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: Beanhead]
#14398400 - 05/04/11 05:37 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Everything in moderation.
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piracetam
bioanalytical chemist


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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: Dave Bowman]
#14398777 - 05/04/11 08:17 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Synthettek said: Everything in moderation.
-------------------- "Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck
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ShroomyJohn
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: piracetam]
#14398812 - 05/04/11 08:27 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
piracetam said:
Quote:
Led Zeppelin said: theyre testing people that used street ecstasy. dont they understand that street x is impure? theyre using these kinds of studies to decide if its worth the risk to use MDMA therapeutically, but theyre basing data off of people who used impure mdma. IMO this makes a big difference. and even if the difference is minimal, this is not the way they should decide if MDMA is useful in therapy, which I believe it is.
perfect example of a denial-type response
what part of "mdma is neurotoxic" do you not understand? even molly will damage said neurons. the oxidative damage it imparts is inherent to the molecule itself, not just impurities.
It isn't a denial at all he is pointing out is that it isn't good science. The lack of control needs to be accounted for.
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Spiderbaby
?



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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: ShroomyJohn]
#14398959 - 05/04/11 09:08 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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he doesn't know what he's talking about, any studies done showing mdma causes axon damage were done with pure mdma, do you really think scientists would waste time and money setting up controlled experiments and then just use some dodgey street pills as their source of mdma? and even if they did they wouldn't get any papers published in proper journals
any papers that talk about mdma are talking about pure mdma unless they specifically mention they are researching the effects of street ecstasy
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bigmike7104
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: Spiderbaby] 1
#14398976 - 05/04/11 09:16 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
do you really think scientists would waste time and money setting up controlled experiments and then just use some dodgey street pills as their source of mdma?
there not giving them mdma then studying it, there looking at people who have previously taken it.
Quote:
Cowan and his colleagues examined brain activation during visual stimulation, using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI), in subjects who had previously used Ecstasy (but not in the two weeks prior to imaging)
-------------------- Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
Edited by bigmike7104 (05/04/11 09:31 AM)
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piracetam
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: bigmike7104]
#14399031 - 05/04/11 09:35 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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but you naysayers are assuming the damage isn't from the mdma itself, but tainted pills; that's rather presumptuous, since the evidence of neuronal damage from MDMA is already established and documented. I won't do your guys' homework, but there are several studies out there showing it, and less contradicting it.
with moderate use, the receptors have the ability to upregulate over time...yet axonal damage from excessive use negates any potential for elasticity to occur, as the dendritic sheaths (and the axons themselves) become considerably degraded.
-------------------- "Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck
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FleshCap
FleshCap



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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: bigmike7104]
#14399053 - 05/04/11 09:42 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I love MDMA. I've had many profound experiences with this substance. However, it is one that I choose to use sparingly.
The day after a good Ecstasy trip can sometimes be difficult. My body is usually extremely tired and sometimes even feels a little on the sick side.
Again, MDMA is a substance that I enjoy and that I believe has great potential. However, heavy use of this substance can certainly be detrimental.
--------------------
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bigmike7104
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: piracetam]
#14399075 - 05/04/11 09:48 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
piracetam said: but you naysayers are assuming the damage isn't from the mdma itself, but tainted pills; that's rather presumptuous, since the evidence of neuronal damage from MDMA is already established and documented. I won't do your guys' homework, but there are several studies out there showing it, and less contradicting it.
with moderate use, the receptors have the ability to upregulate over time...yet axonal damage from excessive use negates any potential for elasticity to occur, as the dendritic sheaths (and the axons themselves) become considerably degraded.
but again, there's studies showing no damage.
and he says
Quote:
The message in news reports needs to be accurate, Cowan said. His team's studies suggest that the current message should be: "If you use Ecstasy recreationally, the more you use, the more brain changes you get."
why does he assume taking it moderately causes damage just like abuse does(if it in fact proven)?
also from study,
Quote:
20 long abstinent (479.95±580.65 days) MDMA users and 20 non-MDMA user controls
it's quite known in science that you can't get good conclusions from small sample sizes, never mind 20 people
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/110215081736.htm
this study that found no damage used 50 subjects, even that is small and wouldn't base any conclusions from.
-------------------- Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
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Spiderbaby
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: bigmike7104]
#14399125 - 05/04/11 10:01 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I wasn't referring to this fMRI study, i was referring to the studies which specifically assay for axon and serotonergic neuron damage.
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bigmike7104
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: Spiderbaby]
#14399778 - 05/04/11 12:37 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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are these studies your referring too showing damage from just a few uses, or is it daily doses over a period of time like some of the ones i'm seeing?
-------------------- Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
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piracetam
bioanalytical chemist


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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: bigmike7104]
#14399828 - 05/04/11 12:45 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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where are these supposed daily long-term use studies which show no axonal damage?
-------------------- "Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck
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Maverick
Lover of Earwigs!




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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: bigmike7104] 1
#14399837 - 05/04/11 12:47 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
bigmike7104 said: are these studies your referring too showing damage from just a few uses, or is it daily doses over a period of time like some of the ones i'm seeing?
This is my question too. I have used MDA and MDMA probably a total of 4-5 times, all was within about a 6 month period though. I don't really plan on doing it again because the last few times I dosed up on it, I hated the comedown. Well I craved more, and was uncomfortable with normalcy. I don't like drugs that do that to me, plus the empathy and compassion I felt was generally fake and stimulated by a drug, I'd come out of it feeling like I was a retard for a few hours.
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bigmike7104
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: piracetam]
#14399868 - 05/04/11 12:52 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
piracetam said: where are these supposed daily long-term use studies which show no axonal damage?
you misunderstood. i'm asking if any of the studies he was referring too that are showing damage, administer daily doses over a period of time like the ones i'm seeing, as opposed to say one dose in once a week or once a month intervals.
-------------------- Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
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dwpineal
Psychedelic Artist



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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: FleshCap]
#14400283 - 05/04/11 02:39 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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piracetam said:
already has.
check chapter 10. (Serotonin) of 'The Biochemical Basis for Neuropharmocology, 8th Ed.' (Oxford press). no gov't propaganda there, just evidence and references.
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"Fine axons with small varicosities originate from the dorsal raphe nuclei, and beaded axons with large spherical varicosities arise from the median raphe nuclei. These two types of 5-HT-containing axon have different regional and laminar distributions and appear to be differentially sensitive to the neurotoxic effects of certain amphetamine derivatives, including 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA), referred to more commonly as "ecstasy." The fine axons are much more sensitive to the neurotoxic effects than the beaded axons, and the loss of fine axons lasts for months and may be permanent. Beaded axons appear to be resistant and remain unaffected following neurotoxic treatment with MDMA. This finding may be relevant to human studies, which have indicated that individuals using MDMA as a recreational drug may be exposed to dosages approximating those shown to exhibit serotonin neurotoxicity in nonhuman primates. A 26% decrease in the serotonin metabolite 5-HIAA was observed in the cerebrospinal fluid of MDMA users. This indirect evidence of a decrease in serotonin turnover in the brain perhaps reflects destruction or compromised function of this fine serotonin-containing axon system. Further studies of MDMA users seem warranted and could provide important information on the effects of selective loss of this fine axon system in humans. At present, the functional roles played by the fine and beaded axon systems and whether the functions are distinct or similar remain unclear. In serial section analysis of 5-HT terminals in the primate visual cortex, the fine and fat boutons appeared to coexist in the same axon, arguing against distinct 5-HT innervation of this brain region."
your opinion means sh!t.
So the excerpt is basically saying that they're not really sure, but have made some educated guesses and further research is needed?
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FleshCap said: I love MDMA. I've had many profound experiences with this substance. However, it is one that I choose to use sparingly.
The day after a good Ecstasy trip can sometimes be difficult. My body is usually extremely tired and sometimes even feels a little on the sick side.
Again, MDMA is a substance that I enjoy and that I believe has great potential. However, heavy use of this substance can certainly be detrimental.

Without question MDMA is one of the substances that is harder on the body than LSD< Mushrooms, and cannabis. I also am a bit weary to take MDMA because of the day-after blues.
However that being said, I've used MDMA since the very early 1990s, I'd be interested to test myself for markers etc.
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Spiderbaby
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: bigmike7104]
#14400595 - 05/04/11 03:34 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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bigmike7104 said: are these studies your referring too showing damage from just a few uses, or is it daily doses over a period of time like some of the ones i'm seeing?
Read my original post and look up the papers if you have access.
In short, very large doses several days on the go appear to cause irreversible axon damage.
More reasonable doses spaced at long intervals seem to cause no lasting damage.
They are just two studies, not posting more because im mid way through final year final exams and don't have time to waste on this. But MDMA is definitely capable of doing damage if used unwisely, we currently don't know where the line between use and abuse lies so people should use common sense with the stuff. That being said, people who abuse it and likely suffered axon damage still seem like perfectly healthy individuals (fMRI brain scans aside) so it would be interesting to investigate how much of a psychological effect, if any, mdma axon damage has on heavy users.
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piracetam
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: dwpineal]
#14400706 - 05/04/11 04:00 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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basically
the brain is such an amazing tool, don't stress it with extensive hedonistic escape in the form of a pill.
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LoveYourLife
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: piracetam]
#14401198 - 05/04/11 06:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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piracetam said: basically
the brain is such an amazing tool, don't stress it with extensive hedonistic escape in the form of a pill.
Why do you say that it's hedonistic? Just curious. I know that it's forced empathy/euphoria. But when I think of hedonistic, I think of cocaine.
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piracetam
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: LoveYourLife]
#14401289 - 05/04/11 06:25 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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both are, they both elicit feedback signalling in the nucleus accumbens (pleasure pathway), so do amphetamines, heroin, and alcohol/benzos.
-------------------- "Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck
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slagMUFFIN
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: piracetam]
#14403299 - 05/05/11 01:08 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Observational study, the researcher observes values of the response variable and explanatory variable for the sample subjects, without anything being done to the subjects (such as imposing a treatment).
It’s not possible to establish cause and effect definitively with observational studies. There is always a possibility that some lurking variable could be responsible for the association.
Association does not imply causation.
Due to the legal nature of MDMA, related compounds and ethical complications experimental studies are few.
Piracetam, it is inherent in the drug community to flatly reject government studies. While government studies do have some merit, it is very obvious that the funding provided defines the objectives of the study. "Selling Sickness" by Moynihan R., & Cassels, A. provides a very good case for entities (corporate or government) "buying out" research to meet there goals.
-------------------- enveloping stuff and fucking shitup with perixomes. I will lysis the shit outta yew!
Edited by slagMUFFIN (05/05/11 01:11 AM)
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Amsu Jackal
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: iPRiSTiNE]
#14403534 - 05/05/11 03:17 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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iPRiSTiNE said: I just explained as much neuroscience as needed in the post above yours, if you need to know neuron firing is what does all the communicating in your brain for this. Your a common Etard though so unless you begin to compile a better argument than mine then I won't feel the need to give a better response to your ignorant idiotic behavior. I've even had a multitude of personal experience with ravers from colorado at my old treatment center and still meet more when i visit. And with the intensity involved with the euphoria of ecstasy alone its hilarious how anyone can begin to think a chemical of that stregnth won't have any effect AT ALL on you, abuse the hell out of it and have a good time while your at it but save up a little money to have your brain scanned at the doctors when you feel ready. Ill enjoy using a pure 75 mg dose with 75 mg of MDA (way better) once to twice a month if i even feel like it or am not terribly busy with my life.
okay im gonna break a few things down with this one and the previous post you made.
you do have a point about serotonin depletion, as it takes around a week for your brain to rebuild serotonin if it's all released during a drug experience. also keep in mind that not ALL serotonin is depleted, not enough to burn out or harm the receptor sites unless you redose consistently and are on the drug for a good 14-24 hours.
Second, you mentioned drugs with powerful effects cause damage and its plain as day because of the strong effects. wrong. THC has some strong effects and doesnt harm the brain in any way, in fact it's a neuroprotectant. especially in the case of E/MDMA. cannabanoids protect brain cells from cell death due to overheating (a common problem with drugs) by inhibiting the heat stress enzyme they release that causes the cells around the problem cells to destroy those cells to prevent the spread of a problem (the typical cause for olney's lesions aka brain holes) and in turn, you keep a healthier brain. Also, LSD, mescaline, and Psilocybin are among the most powerful drugs we know of on the planet and none of them are neurotoxic in the least. you can mess yourself up if you binge on them but that goes for anything even OTC meds.
please PLEASE think things through before you post and do your research. I know a lot of times things like these are unknown unknowns (things that you dont know that you dont know), but the information is out there and easily accessable by anyone with half a brain and some google know-how.
-------------------- Perfect calm is the sensation of pure awareness.
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bigmike7104
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: Amsu Jackal]
#14403990 - 05/05/11 07:31 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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if mdma causes lasting changes in brain function, i wonder if long term use of ssris do too...
-------------------- Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
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piracetam
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: slagMUFFIN]
#14404236 - 05/05/11 08:48 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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slagMUFFIN said: Piracetam, it is inherent in the drug community to flatly reject government studies. While government studies do have some merit, it is very obvious that the funding provided defines the objectives of the study. "Selling Sickness" by Moynihan R., & Cassels, A. provides a very good case for entities (corporate or government) "buying out" research to meet there goals.
you're preaching to the choir.
I've been involved in enough research studies to know how it works but I'll tell you what doesn't have an agenda...the analytical machines. data doesn't lie. You're not going to convince me that an MRI image showing axonal damage from a known neurotoxin is a hoax.
obviously, more research needs to be conducted, to examine the extent of damage and how it affects brain functionality.
-------------------- "Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck
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potgrrl
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: LoveYourLife]
#14404264 - 05/05/11 08:56 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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LoveYourLife said: Plenty of people who have been using MDMA since the 80's aren't noticeably damaged whatsoever. I wouldn't doubt it at all if it has some negative effects on the brain, but they don't seem to be very extreme.
I've used it many many times and honestly don't feel any different then I ever did.
I haven't used it myself, but I found it interesting that the guy who founded MAPS, Rick Doblin, is quoted somewhere saying that he has dosed with MDMA over 400 times just on his own - and many of his peers have similar numbers.
I myself believe the people who are putting their lives into studying the material, especially since they're experienced with the effects first hand over decades of time.
Ann Shulgin, however, claims that MDMA doesn't give the same effects for her anymore after she used MDMA quite heavily to help write her part of the TIKAL/PHIKAL books she co-wrote with her husband Sasha Shulgin. She doesn't use it anymore and has other "favorites" which she apparently refuses to name so as not to encourage others to seek out the drugs (since on the street, they may not be what you think you're getting).
I'd love to dose MDMA but I don't trust street drugs that come in the form of powder, pill or liquid. Ah well. Some day.
-------------------- Everything is arbitrary. (me)
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bigmike7104
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: potgrrl]
#14404378 - 05/05/11 09:30 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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but I'll tell you what doesn't have an agenda...the analytical machines. data doesn't lie.
but the people who interpret the data can, or at least have a subconscious bias, or not being able to interpret it completely accurately
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/11/lies-damned-lies-and-medical-science/8269/
this article should change your perspective on research, where it has been found
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80 percent of non-randomized studies (by far the most common type) turn out to be wrong, as do 25 percent of supposedly gold-standard randomized trials, and as much as 10 percent of the platinum-standard large randomized trials. The article spelled out his belief that researchers were frequently manipulating data analyses, chasing career-advancing findings rather than good science, and even using the peer-review process—in which journals ask researchers to help decide which studies to publish—to suppress opposing views.
he's also famous in the scientific community who haven't disputed his findings
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Tabbarok, for example, explains very eloquently why, even under "perfect" conditions, as many as 25% of hypotheses may be incorrectly found to be true:
http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2005/09/why_most_publis.html
so even perfect science doesn't always equal true data
-------------------- Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
Edited by bigmike7104 (05/05/11 09:36 AM)
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piracetam
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: bigmike7104]
#14404393 - 05/05/11 09:37 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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bigmike7104 said:
Quote:
but I'll tell you what doesn't have an agenda...the analytical machines. data doesn't lie.
but the people who interpret the data can, or at least have a subconscious bias, or not being able to interpret it completely accurately
that goes without saying but the machines themselves do not lie. learn the theory of the analytical machine, runs standards on a calibrated machine, and a sample. no hoax there.
of course science is often tainted when money is involved; you can point out the obvious, but it's already assumed. and in case you didn't know, nothing is science is ever "proven" (that's a catch term to get you to buy something); that would imply replication of an event, where R2 = 1. that never happens. thus, science can only show a plausible correlation with evidence, or accept the null hypothesis
but don't expect media articles to tell the unbiased truth; they also have an agenda.. to influence public opinion.
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bigmike7104
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: piracetam]
#14404588 - 05/05/11 10:26 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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that goes without saying but the machines themselves do not lie. learn the theory of the analytical machine, runs standards on a calibrated machine, and a sample. no hoax there.
did you even read what i wrote or the article i posted?
first the machine may not be perfect. second, even if the machine is not lying, the machine isn't the one doing the study and analyzing the data, so what does that point have to do with anything? even with all the technological advances in medicine, a significant amount, and in some areas the majority, of medical studies are false.
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thus, science can only show a plausible correlation with evidence, or accept the null hypothesis
journals do accept some findings failing to provide evidence for their hypothesis, but only if the evidence is strong enough against the hypothesis. this is why many scientists slightly manipulate their data, leave out some data, and try different statistical methods until it's statistically significant. if they don't publish good findings in good journals, they don't get good jobs.
and if the scientific community has embraced his findings, i don't see how someone who has "been involved in enough research studies to know how it works" to know more than them and proclaim research involving machines don't lie.
-------------------- Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
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piracetam
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: bigmike7104]
#14404841 - 05/05/11 11:34 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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they don't
notice how i mentioned a "calibrated machine" running a "standard". this is how machines correlate findings with other calibrated machines with high probability. I shouldn't assume someone lacking an analytical background would understand this. this method is purely scientific, and unbiased; machines have validation certifications complying with international standards. I did read the article, and it wasn't anything to change my mind about research, because it's not something i wasn't already aware of.
you are correct on the premise that researchers do interpret the data to fit their agenda sometimes, and that is likely the studies you see on the news, because it's to subliminally pique public interest into supporting corporate interests funding the study. again, this is nothing new
but the application of obtaining the data is purely the scientific method; interpreting the data, doctoring, then publishing the findings starts to get into a political/ethical dilemma.
and it works the other way too; you claim there are studies which show no damage from this widely documented neurotoxin, so who's agenda is it to push the null hypothesis?
like i said...science often becomes tainted when money is involved, which is basically the same thing you're implying.
and to get an article published in any of the major journals (Science, Nature, etc.) the article has to survive serious scrutiny from peer-review; this is independent of any corporate agendas...unless there's some sort of major conspiracy for science to get you to consume more.
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bigmike7104
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: piracetam]
#14405151 - 05/05/11 12:56 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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but the application of obtaining the data is purely the scientific method; interpreting the data, doctoring, then publishing the findings starts to get into a political/ethical dilemma.
but does that mean ecstasy for sure is the cause for the damage in people. as for the studies on animals, usually they give them large amounts daily. is there the same damage from doses given monthly or less, or is it only in abuse?
from new scientist magazine, though it's from 2002 http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_neurotoxicity3.shtml
MDMA Brain Scans Showing Neurotoxicity Discredited
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Neuropathologist Stephen Kish's article, in "Pharmacology, Biochemistry, and Behaviour" published in April, 2002 investigates the reliability of the PET brain scanning showing damage. He concludes that the studies completed to date include serious methodological flaws, huge variations between individuals tested, use of non-serotonin specific tests, lack of test-retest reliability data, and other invalidating assumptions about the types of tests used. He says that, based on the brain scan research to date, "it cannot be assumed that ecstasy exposure [causes] a chronic serotonin deficiency condition."
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The New Scientist describes how journal editors have joined in the War on Drugs by turning down articles which do not support the "anti-drug" view, including papers which report "no-effect" results.
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We are not saying that ecstasy is harmless to brain cells. It might not be. But the jury is still out. Which means scientists must resist the temptation to turn their always complex--and sometimes flawed--findings into simple scare stories in pursuit of grants and headlines.
and the study from a few months ago showing no damage "Previous research was flawed, say experts, but findings will shock those who campaign against the drug's use" http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/feb/19/ecstasy-harm-brain-new-study
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Essentially we compared one group of people who danced and raved and took ecstasy with a similar group of individuals who danced and raved but who did not take ecstasy. When we did that, we found that there was no difference in their cognitive abilities." In other words, previous studies highlighted problems triggered by other factors, such as use of other drugs or drink, or sleep deprivation.
-------------------- Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
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piracetam
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: bigmike7104]
#14405661 - 05/05/11 02:45 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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The study was carried out by a team led by Professor John Halpern of Harvard Medical School and published in the journal Addiction last week. Funded by a $1.8m grant from the US National Institute on Drug Abuse
interesting
but one study says nothing there needs to be more studies confirming similar findings
-------------------- "Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck
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Led Zeppelin
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: piracetam]
#14406029 - 05/05/11 04:10 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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bigmike7104
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: Led Zeppelin]
#14406099 - 05/05/11 04:21 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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interesting
but one study says nothing there needs to be more studies confirming similar findings
yea of course. also 50 subjects is still pretty small, but it's twice as big as the study in the op.
also i too found it interesting that it was funded by the NIDA, i bet they regret that.
-------------------- Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
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dwpineal
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: Led Zeppelin]
#14408674 - 05/06/11 05:33 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Led Zeppelin said: THC prevents MDMA neurotoxicity in Mice another link (same study different site)
i thought this was interesting
Very interesting paper! I don't believe I've ever used MDMA without cannabis.
I've read other places that anti-oxidants are helpful, and I can confirm, at least subjectively, that pre-loading with anti-oxidant vitamins seems to help improve the way you feel the next day or two after MDMA.
Loving all the info from Piracetam and BigMike 
Great thread!
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