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Amsu Jackal
Urcan Refugee



Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 227
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: iPRiSTiNE]
#14403534 - 05/05/11 03:17 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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iPRiSTiNE said: I just explained as much neuroscience as needed in the post above yours, if you need to know neuron firing is what does all the communicating in your brain for this. Your a common Etard though so unless you begin to compile a better argument than mine then I won't feel the need to give a better response to your ignorant idiotic behavior. I've even had a multitude of personal experience with ravers from colorado at my old treatment center and still meet more when i visit. And with the intensity involved with the euphoria of ecstasy alone its hilarious how anyone can begin to think a chemical of that stregnth won't have any effect AT ALL on you, abuse the hell out of it and have a good time while your at it but save up a little money to have your brain scanned at the doctors when you feel ready. Ill enjoy using a pure 75 mg dose with 75 mg of MDA (way better) once to twice a month if i even feel like it or am not terribly busy with my life.
okay im gonna break a few things down with this one and the previous post you made.
you do have a point about serotonin depletion, as it takes around a week for your brain to rebuild serotonin if it's all released during a drug experience. also keep in mind that not ALL serotonin is depleted, not enough to burn out or harm the receptor sites unless you redose consistently and are on the drug for a good 14-24 hours.
Second, you mentioned drugs with powerful effects cause damage and its plain as day because of the strong effects. wrong. THC has some strong effects and doesnt harm the brain in any way, in fact it's a neuroprotectant. especially in the case of E/MDMA. cannabanoids protect brain cells from cell death due to overheating (a common problem with drugs) by inhibiting the heat stress enzyme they release that causes the cells around the problem cells to destroy those cells to prevent the spread of a problem (the typical cause for olney's lesions aka brain holes) and in turn, you keep a healthier brain. Also, LSD, mescaline, and Psilocybin are among the most powerful drugs we know of on the planet and none of them are neurotoxic in the least. you can mess yourself up if you binge on them but that goes for anything even OTC meds.
please PLEASE think things through before you post and do your research. I know a lot of times things like these are unknown unknowns (things that you dont know that you dont know), but the information is out there and easily accessable by anyone with half a brain and some google know-how.
-------------------- Perfect calm is the sensation of pure awareness.
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bigmike7104
Stranger

Registered: 07/12/10
Posts: 1,395
Loc: USA
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: Amsu Jackal]
#14403990 - 05/05/11 07:31 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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if mdma causes lasting changes in brain function, i wonder if long term use of ssris do too...
-------------------- Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
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piracetam
bioanalytical chemist


Registered: 05/03/08
Posts: 4,321
Loc: TX
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: slagMUFFIN]
#14404236 - 05/05/11 08:48 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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slagMUFFIN said: Piracetam, it is inherent in the drug community to flatly reject government studies. While government studies do have some merit, it is very obvious that the funding provided defines the objectives of the study. "Selling Sickness" by Moynihan R., & Cassels, A. provides a very good case for entities (corporate or government) "buying out" research to meet there goals.
you're preaching to the choir.
I've been involved in enough research studies to know how it works but I'll tell you what doesn't have an agenda...the analytical machines. data doesn't lie. You're not going to convince me that an MRI image showing axonal damage from a known neurotoxin is a hoax.
obviously, more research needs to be conducted, to examine the extent of damage and how it affects brain functionality.
-------------------- "Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck
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potgrrl
Tripper Grrl



Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 641
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: LoveYourLife]
#14404264 - 05/05/11 08:56 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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LoveYourLife said: Plenty of people who have been using MDMA since the 80's aren't noticeably damaged whatsoever. I wouldn't doubt it at all if it has some negative effects on the brain, but they don't seem to be very extreme.
I've used it many many times and honestly don't feel any different then I ever did.
I haven't used it myself, but I found it interesting that the guy who founded MAPS, Rick Doblin, is quoted somewhere saying that he has dosed with MDMA over 400 times just on his own - and many of his peers have similar numbers.
I myself believe the people who are putting their lives into studying the material, especially since they're experienced with the effects first hand over decades of time.
Ann Shulgin, however, claims that MDMA doesn't give the same effects for her anymore after she used MDMA quite heavily to help write her part of the TIKAL/PHIKAL books she co-wrote with her husband Sasha Shulgin. She doesn't use it anymore and has other "favorites" which she apparently refuses to name so as not to encourage others to seek out the drugs (since on the street, they may not be what you think you're getting).
I'd love to dose MDMA but I don't trust street drugs that come in the form of powder, pill or liquid. Ah well. Some day.
-------------------- Everything is arbitrary. (me)
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bigmike7104
Stranger

Registered: 07/12/10
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: potgrrl]
#14404378 - 05/05/11 09:30 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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but I'll tell you what doesn't have an agenda...the analytical machines. data doesn't lie.
but the people who interpret the data can, or at least have a subconscious bias, or not being able to interpret it completely accurately
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/11/lies-damned-lies-and-medical-science/8269/
this article should change your perspective on research, where it has been found
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80 percent of non-randomized studies (by far the most common type) turn out to be wrong, as do 25 percent of supposedly gold-standard randomized trials, and as much as 10 percent of the platinum-standard large randomized trials. The article spelled out his belief that researchers were frequently manipulating data analyses, chasing career-advancing findings rather than good science, and even using the peer-review process—in which journals ask researchers to help decide which studies to publish—to suppress opposing views.
he's also famous in the scientific community who haven't disputed his findings
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Tabbarok, for example, explains very eloquently why, even under "perfect" conditions, as many as 25% of hypotheses may be incorrectly found to be true:
http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2005/09/why_most_publis.html
so even perfect science doesn't always equal true data
-------------------- Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
Edited by bigmike7104 (05/05/11 09:36 AM)
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piracetam
bioanalytical chemist


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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: bigmike7104]
#14404393 - 05/05/11 09:37 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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bigmike7104 said:
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but I'll tell you what doesn't have an agenda...the analytical machines. data doesn't lie.
but the people who interpret the data can, or at least have a subconscious bias, or not being able to interpret it completely accurately
that goes without saying but the machines themselves do not lie. learn the theory of the analytical machine, runs standards on a calibrated machine, and a sample. no hoax there.
of course science is often tainted when money is involved; you can point out the obvious, but it's already assumed. and in case you didn't know, nothing is science is ever "proven" (that's a catch term to get you to buy something); that would imply replication of an event, where R2 = 1. that never happens. thus, science can only show a plausible correlation with evidence, or accept the null hypothesis
but don't expect media articles to tell the unbiased truth; they also have an agenda.. to influence public opinion.
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bigmike7104
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: piracetam]
#14404588 - 05/05/11 10:26 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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that goes without saying but the machines themselves do not lie. learn the theory of the analytical machine, runs standards on a calibrated machine, and a sample. no hoax there.
did you even read what i wrote or the article i posted?
first the machine may not be perfect. second, even if the machine is not lying, the machine isn't the one doing the study and analyzing the data, so what does that point have to do with anything? even with all the technological advances in medicine, a significant amount, and in some areas the majority, of medical studies are false.
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thus, science can only show a plausible correlation with evidence, or accept the null hypothesis
journals do accept some findings failing to provide evidence for their hypothesis, but only if the evidence is strong enough against the hypothesis. this is why many scientists slightly manipulate their data, leave out some data, and try different statistical methods until it's statistically significant. if they don't publish good findings in good journals, they don't get good jobs.
and if the scientific community has embraced his findings, i don't see how someone who has "been involved in enough research studies to know how it works" to know more than them and proclaim research involving machines don't lie.
-------------------- Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
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piracetam
bioanalytical chemist


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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: bigmike7104]
#14404841 - 05/05/11 11:34 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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they don't
notice how i mentioned a "calibrated machine" running a "standard". this is how machines correlate findings with other calibrated machines with high probability. I shouldn't assume someone lacking an analytical background would understand this. this method is purely scientific, and unbiased; machines have validation certifications complying with international standards. I did read the article, and it wasn't anything to change my mind about research, because it's not something i wasn't already aware of.
you are correct on the premise that researchers do interpret the data to fit their agenda sometimes, and that is likely the studies you see on the news, because it's to subliminally pique public interest into supporting corporate interests funding the study. again, this is nothing new
but the application of obtaining the data is purely the scientific method; interpreting the data, doctoring, then publishing the findings starts to get into a political/ethical dilemma.
and it works the other way too; you claim there are studies which show no damage from this widely documented neurotoxin, so who's agenda is it to push the null hypothesis?
like i said...science often becomes tainted when money is involved, which is basically the same thing you're implying.
and to get an article published in any of the major journals (Science, Nature, etc.) the article has to survive serious scrutiny from peer-review; this is independent of any corporate agendas...unless there's some sort of major conspiracy for science to get you to consume more.
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bigmike7104
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: piracetam]
#14405151 - 05/05/11 12:56 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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but the application of obtaining the data is purely the scientific method; interpreting the data, doctoring, then publishing the findings starts to get into a political/ethical dilemma.
but does that mean ecstasy for sure is the cause for the damage in people. as for the studies on animals, usually they give them large amounts daily. is there the same damage from doses given monthly or less, or is it only in abuse?
from new scientist magazine, though it's from 2002 http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_neurotoxicity3.shtml
MDMA Brain Scans Showing Neurotoxicity Discredited
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Neuropathologist Stephen Kish's article, in "Pharmacology, Biochemistry, and Behaviour" published in April, 2002 investigates the reliability of the PET brain scanning showing damage. He concludes that the studies completed to date include serious methodological flaws, huge variations between individuals tested, use of non-serotonin specific tests, lack of test-retest reliability data, and other invalidating assumptions about the types of tests used. He says that, based on the brain scan research to date, "it cannot be assumed that ecstasy exposure [causes] a chronic serotonin deficiency condition."
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The New Scientist describes how journal editors have joined in the War on Drugs by turning down articles which do not support the "anti-drug" view, including papers which report "no-effect" results.
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We are not saying that ecstasy is harmless to brain cells. It might not be. But the jury is still out. Which means scientists must resist the temptation to turn their always complex--and sometimes flawed--findings into simple scare stories in pursuit of grants and headlines.
and the study from a few months ago showing no damage "Previous research was flawed, say experts, but findings will shock those who campaign against the drug's use" http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/feb/19/ecstasy-harm-brain-new-study
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Essentially we compared one group of people who danced and raved and took ecstasy with a similar group of individuals who danced and raved but who did not take ecstasy. When we did that, we found that there was no difference in their cognitive abilities." In other words, previous studies highlighted problems triggered by other factors, such as use of other drugs or drink, or sleep deprivation.
-------------------- Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
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piracetam
bioanalytical chemist


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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: bigmike7104]
#14405661 - 05/05/11 02:45 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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The study was carried out by a team led by Professor John Halpern of Harvard Medical School and published in the journal Addiction last week. Funded by a $1.8m grant from the US National Institute on Drug Abuse
interesting
but one study says nothing there needs to be more studies confirming similar findings
-------------------- "Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck
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Led Zeppelin
Tripper


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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: piracetam]
#14406029 - 05/05/11 04:10 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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bigmike7104
Stranger

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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: Led Zeppelin]
#14406099 - 05/05/11 04:21 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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interesting
but one study says nothing there needs to be more studies confirming similar findings
yea of course. also 50 subjects is still pretty small, but it's twice as big as the study in the op.
also i too found it interesting that it was funded by the NIDA, i bet they regret that.
-------------------- Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
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dwpineal
Psychedelic Artist



Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 4,667
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: Led Zeppelin]
#14408674 - 05/06/11 05:33 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Led Zeppelin said: THC prevents MDMA neurotoxicity in Mice another link (same study different site)
i thought this was interesting
Very interesting paper! I don't believe I've ever used MDMA without cannabis.
I've read other places that anti-oxidants are helpful, and I can confirm, at least subjectively, that pre-loading with anti-oxidant vitamins seems to help improve the way you feel the next day or two after MDMA.
Loving all the info from Piracetam and BigMike 
Great thread!
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