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Beanhead
IS IRONIC PARADOX


Registered: 10/11/08
Posts: 17,257
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: iPRiSTiNE]
#14398301 - 05/04/11 04:26 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
iPRiSTiNE said: I just explained as much neuroscience as needed in the post above yours, if you need to know neuron firing is what does all the communicating in your brain for this. Your a common Etard though so unless you begin to compile a better argument than mine then I won't feel the need to give a better response to your ignorant idiotic behavior. I've even had a multitude of personal experience with ravers from colorado at my old treatment center and still meet more when i visit. And with the intensity involved with the euphoria of ecstasy alone its hilarious how anyone can begin to think a chemical of that stregnth won't have any effect AT ALL on you, abuse the hell out of it and have a good time while your at it but save up a little money to have your brain scanned at the doctors when you feel ready. Ill enjoy using a pure 75 mg dose with 75 mg of MDA (way better) once to twice a month if i even feel like it or am not terribly busy with my life.
MDA is even more toxic.
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Dave Bowman
Albert Hoffmans Apprentice




Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 2,104
Loc: Your Imagination
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: Beanhead]
#14398400 - 05/04/11 05:37 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Everything in moderation.
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piracetam
bioanalytical chemist


Registered: 05/03/08
Posts: 4,321
Loc: TX
Last seen: 1 year, 1 day
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: Dave Bowman]
#14398777 - 05/04/11 08:17 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Synthettek said: Everything in moderation.
-------------------- "Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck
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ShroomyJohn
Stranger
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: piracetam]
#14398812 - 05/04/11 08:27 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
piracetam said:
Quote:
Led Zeppelin said: theyre testing people that used street ecstasy. dont they understand that street x is impure? theyre using these kinds of studies to decide if its worth the risk to use MDMA therapeutically, but theyre basing data off of people who used impure mdma. IMO this makes a big difference. and even if the difference is minimal, this is not the way they should decide if MDMA is useful in therapy, which I believe it is.
perfect example of a denial-type response
what part of "mdma is neurotoxic" do you not understand? even molly will damage said neurons. the oxidative damage it imparts is inherent to the molecule itself, not just impurities.
It isn't a denial at all he is pointing out is that it isn't good science. The lack of control needs to be accounted for.
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Spiderbaby
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Registered: 08/20/06
Posts: 1,439
Loc: Ireland
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: ShroomyJohn]
#14398959 - 05/04/11 09:08 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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he doesn't know what he's talking about, any studies done showing mdma causes axon damage were done with pure mdma, do you really think scientists would waste time and money setting up controlled experiments and then just use some dodgey street pills as their source of mdma? and even if they did they wouldn't get any papers published in proper journals
any papers that talk about mdma are talking about pure mdma unless they specifically mention they are researching the effects of street ecstasy
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bigmike7104
Stranger

Registered: 07/12/10
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Loc: USA
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: Spiderbaby] 1
#14398976 - 05/04/11 09:16 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
do you really think scientists would waste time and money setting up controlled experiments and then just use some dodgey street pills as their source of mdma?
there not giving them mdma then studying it, there looking at people who have previously taken it.
Quote:
Cowan and his colleagues examined brain activation during visual stimulation, using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI), in subjects who had previously used Ecstasy (but not in the two weeks prior to imaging)
-------------------- Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
Edited by bigmike7104 (05/04/11 09:31 AM)
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piracetam
bioanalytical chemist


Registered: 05/03/08
Posts: 4,321
Loc: TX
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: bigmike7104]
#14399031 - 05/04/11 09:35 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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but you naysayers are assuming the damage isn't from the mdma itself, but tainted pills; that's rather presumptuous, since the evidence of neuronal damage from MDMA is already established and documented. I won't do your guys' homework, but there are several studies out there showing it, and less contradicting it.
with moderate use, the receptors have the ability to upregulate over time...yet axonal damage from excessive use negates any potential for elasticity to occur, as the dendritic sheaths (and the axons themselves) become considerably degraded.
-------------------- "Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck
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FleshCap
FleshCap



Registered: 11/10/08
Posts: 685
Loc: Cali Underground
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: bigmike7104]
#14399053 - 05/04/11 09:42 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I love MDMA. I've had many profound experiences with this substance. However, it is one that I choose to use sparingly.
The day after a good Ecstasy trip can sometimes be difficult. My body is usually extremely tired and sometimes even feels a little on the sick side.
Again, MDMA is a substance that I enjoy and that I believe has great potential. However, heavy use of this substance can certainly be detrimental.
--------------------
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bigmike7104
Stranger

Registered: 07/12/10
Posts: 1,395
Loc: USA
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: piracetam]
#14399075 - 05/04/11 09:48 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
piracetam said: but you naysayers are assuming the damage isn't from the mdma itself, but tainted pills; that's rather presumptuous, since the evidence of neuronal damage from MDMA is already established and documented. I won't do your guys' homework, but there are several studies out there showing it, and less contradicting it.
with moderate use, the receptors have the ability to upregulate over time...yet axonal damage from excessive use negates any potential for elasticity to occur, as the dendritic sheaths (and the axons themselves) become considerably degraded.
but again, there's studies showing no damage.
and he says
Quote:
The message in news reports needs to be accurate, Cowan said. His team's studies suggest that the current message should be: "If you use Ecstasy recreationally, the more you use, the more brain changes you get."
why does he assume taking it moderately causes damage just like abuse does(if it in fact proven)?
also from study,
Quote:
20 long abstinent (479.95±580.65 days) MDMA users and 20 non-MDMA user controls
it's quite known in science that you can't get good conclusions from small sample sizes, never mind 20 people
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/110215081736.htm
this study that found no damage used 50 subjects, even that is small and wouldn't base any conclusions from.
-------------------- Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
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Spiderbaby
?



Registered: 08/20/06
Posts: 1,439
Loc: Ireland
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: bigmike7104]
#14399125 - 05/04/11 10:01 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I wasn't referring to this fMRI study, i was referring to the studies which specifically assay for axon and serotonergic neuron damage.
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bigmike7104
Stranger

Registered: 07/12/10
Posts: 1,395
Loc: USA
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: Spiderbaby]
#14399778 - 05/04/11 12:37 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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are these studies your referring too showing damage from just a few uses, or is it daily doses over a period of time like some of the ones i'm seeing?
-------------------- Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
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piracetam
bioanalytical chemist


Registered: 05/03/08
Posts: 4,321
Loc: TX
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: bigmike7104]
#14399828 - 05/04/11 12:45 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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where are these supposed daily long-term use studies which show no axonal damage?
-------------------- "Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck
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Maverick
Lover of Earwigs!




Registered: 12/18/05
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: bigmike7104] 1
#14399837 - 05/04/11 12:47 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
bigmike7104 said: are these studies your referring too showing damage from just a few uses, or is it daily doses over a period of time like some of the ones i'm seeing?
This is my question too. I have used MDA and MDMA probably a total of 4-5 times, all was within about a 6 month period though. I don't really plan on doing it again because the last few times I dosed up on it, I hated the comedown. Well I craved more, and was uncomfortable with normalcy. I don't like drugs that do that to me, plus the empathy and compassion I felt was generally fake and stimulated by a drug, I'd come out of it feeling like I was a retard for a few hours.
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bigmike7104
Stranger

Registered: 07/12/10
Posts: 1,395
Loc: USA
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: piracetam]
#14399868 - 05/04/11 12:52 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
piracetam said: where are these supposed daily long-term use studies which show no axonal damage?
you misunderstood. i'm asking if any of the studies he was referring too that are showing damage, administer daily doses over a period of time like the ones i'm seeing, as opposed to say one dose in once a week or once a month intervals.
-------------------- Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
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dwpineal
Psychedelic Artist



Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 4,667
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: FleshCap]
#14400283 - 05/04/11 02:39 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
piracetam said:
already has.
check chapter 10. (Serotonin) of 'The Biochemical Basis for Neuropharmocology, 8th Ed.' (Oxford press). no gov't propaganda there, just evidence and references.
Quote:
"Fine axons with small varicosities originate from the dorsal raphe nuclei, and beaded axons with large spherical varicosities arise from the median raphe nuclei. These two types of 5-HT-containing axon have different regional and laminar distributions and appear to be differentially sensitive to the neurotoxic effects of certain amphetamine derivatives, including 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA), referred to more commonly as "ecstasy." The fine axons are much more sensitive to the neurotoxic effects than the beaded axons, and the loss of fine axons lasts for months and may be permanent. Beaded axons appear to be resistant and remain unaffected following neurotoxic treatment with MDMA. This finding may be relevant to human studies, which have indicated that individuals using MDMA as a recreational drug may be exposed to dosages approximating those shown to exhibit serotonin neurotoxicity in nonhuman primates. A 26% decrease in the serotonin metabolite 5-HIAA was observed in the cerebrospinal fluid of MDMA users. This indirect evidence of a decrease in serotonin turnover in the brain perhaps reflects destruction or compromised function of this fine serotonin-containing axon system. Further studies of MDMA users seem warranted and could provide important information on the effects of selective loss of this fine axon system in humans. At present, the functional roles played by the fine and beaded axon systems and whether the functions are distinct or similar remain unclear. In serial section analysis of 5-HT terminals in the primate visual cortex, the fine and fat boutons appeared to coexist in the same axon, arguing against distinct 5-HT innervation of this brain region."
your opinion means sh!t.
So the excerpt is basically saying that they're not really sure, but have made some educated guesses and further research is needed?
Quote:
FleshCap said: I love MDMA. I've had many profound experiences with this substance. However, it is one that I choose to use sparingly.
The day after a good Ecstasy trip can sometimes be difficult. My body is usually extremely tired and sometimes even feels a little on the sick side.
Again, MDMA is a substance that I enjoy and that I believe has great potential. However, heavy use of this substance can certainly be detrimental.

Without question MDMA is one of the substances that is harder on the body than LSD< Mushrooms, and cannabis. I also am a bit weary to take MDMA because of the day-after blues.
However that being said, I've used MDMA since the very early 1990s, I'd be interested to test myself for markers etc.
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Spiderbaby
?



Registered: 08/20/06
Posts: 1,439
Loc: Ireland
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: bigmike7104]
#14400595 - 05/04/11 03:34 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
bigmike7104 said: are these studies your referring too showing damage from just a few uses, or is it daily doses over a period of time like some of the ones i'm seeing?
Read my original post and look up the papers if you have access.
In short, very large doses several days on the go appear to cause irreversible axon damage.
More reasonable doses spaced at long intervals seem to cause no lasting damage.
They are just two studies, not posting more because im mid way through final year final exams and don't have time to waste on this. But MDMA is definitely capable of doing damage if used unwisely, we currently don't know where the line between use and abuse lies so people should use common sense with the stuff. That being said, people who abuse it and likely suffered axon damage still seem like perfectly healthy individuals (fMRI brain scans aside) so it would be interesting to investigate how much of a psychological effect, if any, mdma axon damage has on heavy users.
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piracetam
bioanalytical chemist


Registered: 05/03/08
Posts: 4,321
Loc: TX
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: dwpineal]
#14400706 - 05/04/11 04:00 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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basically
the brain is such an amazing tool, don't stress it with extensive hedonistic escape in the form of a pill.
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LoveYourLife
MDMA


Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 2,076
Loc: Cincinnati
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: piracetam]
#14401198 - 05/04/11 06:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
piracetam said: basically
the brain is such an amazing tool, don't stress it with extensive hedonistic escape in the form of a pill.
Why do you say that it's hedonistic? Just curious. I know that it's forced empathy/euphoria. But when I think of hedonistic, I think of cocaine.
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piracetam
bioanalytical chemist


Registered: 05/03/08
Posts: 4,321
Loc: TX
Last seen: 1 year, 1 day
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: LoveYourLife]
#14401289 - 05/04/11 06:25 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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both are, they both elicit feedback signalling in the nucleus accumbens (pleasure pathway), so do amphetamines, heroin, and alcohol/benzos.
-------------------- "Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck
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slagMUFFIN
Spiney ribbed Mooslet

Registered: 03/27/11
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Re: Ecstasy associated with chronic change in brain function [Re: piracetam]
#14403299 - 05/05/11 01:08 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Observational study, the researcher observes values of the response variable and explanatory variable for the sample subjects, without anything being done to the subjects (such as imposing a treatment).
It’s not possible to establish cause and effect definitively with observational studies. There is always a possibility that some lurking variable could be responsible for the association.
Association does not imply causation.
Due to the legal nature of MDMA, related compounds and ethical complications experimental studies are few.
Piracetam, it is inherent in the drug community to flatly reject government studies. While government studies do have some merit, it is very obvious that the funding provided defines the objectives of the study. "Selling Sickness" by Moynihan R., & Cassels, A. provides a very good case for entities (corporate or government) "buying out" research to meet there goals.
-------------------- enveloping stuff and fucking shitup with perixomes. I will lysis the shit outta yew!
Edited by slagMUFFIN (05/05/11 01:11 AM)
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