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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel?
#14394166 - 05/03/11 12:12 PM (13 years, 19 days ago) |
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What is wrong with Israel existing? Were someone's rights violated by the state's formation or continued existence?
This thread has been made in the past by me, but from the start was inundated with irrelevant name calling, speculation on hidden agendas, psychoanalysis, and other off topic gibberish. To help avert this from happening again, let us concede for the sake of argument that I am a racist pro-Israel shill who is incurably biased towards Israel, ignorant, an uncritical consumer of 'bad' media, a fool who can't think for himself, and that my posts betray psychological/educational deficits and bias as to the topic.
With the forgoing conceded, what, if anything, is there to say on the merits of the question? Please address the merits rather than whatever you've managed to learn about me or my views via the phrasing of my question.
I note that many people seem to accuse the state of Israel as basically stealing land, being an outrage, and generally being poo poo heads, but other than racial/religious preferences, which don't seem very persuasive, I've never heard any clear articulation for how this is so. Is it? Is Israel committing injustice by continuing to exist, by being formed in the first place?
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JT


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214]
#14394413 - 05/03/11 01:14 PM (13 years, 19 days ago) |
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I don't know if you can separate the religious issue really. Seems to me that is the big problem. The abrahamic religions all felt they had a claim to the holy land. So even if the establishment was perfectly legal and relativelyy justified, certain people will always be butthurt because the jews own it completely.
Sorry if that's derailing the thread or not the issue you wanted to talk about. This is something I'm really interested in too and I would like some good factual/unbiased info (if that's possible?)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: JT] 1
#14394567 - 05/03/11 01:53 PM (13 years, 19 days ago) |
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They originally split Jerusalem in half but then the Muslims got greedy and tried for the whole loaf and the eradication of Israel. They lost. Because they are inept incompetent morons. It wasn't enough that they got all the natural resources in the region. They had to have the last resource devoid tract, a tiny sliver of nothing.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: JT]
#14394621 - 05/03/11 02:04 PM (13 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
JT said: I don't know if you can separate the religious issue really. Seems to me that is the big problem. The abrahamic religions all felt they had a claim to the holy land. So even if the establishment was perfectly legal and relativelyy justified, certain people will always be butthurt because the jews own it completely.
Sorry if that's derailing the thread or not the issue you wanted to talk about. This is something I'm really interested in too and I would like some good factual/unbiased info (if that's possible?)
No, not at all: your question/observation is fine. The things I was referring to as off topic that previously inundated this thread were more like "your obviously a biased american jew lover if you don't know" or "by the way you ask your question I can tell you are ignorant of [insert disputed Israeli policy here]". Then the fruitcake crew showed up with an expose of the reptilian-jew alliance...
As for your request for unbiased discussion, I think it was Seuss that stated in the last thread that Israel discussions seem to bring out the worst in everyone. We'll see where this goes, lol
As for the religious angle, I don't really care. As far as I can tell, you have no moral right to have the leaders of the soverign nation you live in be a particular religion or oppress others of the 'wrong' religion. This being the case, I see no reason why the religious difference is relevant per se. I agree people might be pissed about that, but tought shit- I'm wondering if there is any moral/legal problem with Israel's existance, as the critics seem to frequently claim, that doesn't require faith in holy books and an invisible god that doesn't want you to eat pork..
Quote:
zappaisgod said: They originally split Jerusalem in half but then the Muslims got greedy and tried for the whole loaf and the eradication of Israel. They lost. Because they are inept incompetent morons. It wasn't enough that they got all the natural resources in the region. They had to have the last resource devoid tract, a tiny sliver of nothing.
Yeah, though then again, if the state was unjustly created for some reason, the subsequant wars don't neccesarily change that- whoever instituted them. The claims I've heard for how Israel's creation was unjust seem to involve either vague notions of theft or just flat-out incorrect claims of the history (i.e. that the jews stole the land from a Palestinian state and made Israel with it or something like that).
For all the whining the arab states do, and all the problems certain groups have with Israel, you'd think the often-made claims about how the state's existance is unjust could be justified with something
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214]
#14394881 - 05/03/11 03:05 PM (13 years, 19 days ago) |
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There was nothing any more unjust about the creation of Israel than any other nation, especially in the mid-east where they were all carved out of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. The entire UK is a spoil of war as is every other European nation. Every fucking one.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14395283 - 05/03/11 04:42 PM (13 years, 19 days ago) |
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Well, given the land of Israel was captured by the defender in an aggressive war and then voluntarily ceeded to an international body for the purpose of creating the state, I'd say Israel came about through much more just processes than the average case.
Anyways, I doubt there's anything special about Europe in regards to being a spoil of war: pretty much all boundaries are determined by war or recognizance of soveriegnty voluntarily- which has only historically been possible when one has the military to enforce such claims in actuality.
The theory of nationhood that gives the local people the right to form their own government seems to make some sense- at least as much as the other theories. Of course, as the post WWII independant states testify to: many times it seems like they'd be better off as colonies. I recall a chinese dissident openly claiming that China needs colonizing by a western-style liberal democracy to make the people get used to a government that's not completely demented in the way the PRC and other Asian nations have been. KInda interesting as a viewpoint given the common theme of imperialism being used as a slur..
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Stranger


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14395388 - 05/03/11 05:03 PM (13 years, 19 days ago) |
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I dont have a problem with Israel existing, I have a problem with America giving Israel money and weapons. I dont want America to support any side in a conflict happening in foreign lands, America should mind its own business.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: lines]
#14395421 - 05/03/11 05:09 PM (13 years, 19 days ago) |
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I think supporting the rule of law is America's business. And America also buys weapons from Israel. We just give them some money. They fight their own battles.
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Stranger


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14395534 - 05/03/11 05:35 PM (13 years, 19 days ago) |
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zappaisgod said: I think supporting the rule of law is America's business. And America also buys weapons from Israel. We just give them some money. They fight their own battles.
Well I'm not comfortable with Israel taking my tax dollars.
If anything Israel should be giving America weapons, so our deal from Israel is that we give it tons of money and then we have to buy weapons from it. Huh?
Or did you mean to say Israel buys weapons from us? So in that case it would be we give Israel tons of money that it uses to buy our weapons... huh? What?
So I guess in that deal "Joe Sixpack" picks up the bill.
I think its time for "little Israel" to grow up. It should rely on its own money and its own business. I dont like being taxed to give money to that country. I don't support any side and I don't have a problem with Israel existing.
I am sick of little Israel taking my money through taxes, maybe its time for little Israel to be a big boy. Its not Americas job to wipe the bum of all these foreign countries and take care of all these foreign countries.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: lines]
#14395574 - 05/03/11 05:43 PM (13 years, 19 days ago) |
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Joe Sixpack doesn't pay any taxes to speak of.
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14395646 - 05/03/11 05:58 PM (13 years, 19 days ago) |
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So lets get real here, what are the real reasons for a new crusade?
The underlying reasons still elude me.
Is is sacred relics? ancient scrolls?
Or is it just religious zealotry?
Some kind of eternal throne on earth for the Israelites?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: Shins] 1
#14395677 - 05/03/11 06:02 PM (13 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said: So lets get real here, what are the real reasons for a new crusade?
There is no crusade Quote:
The underlying reasons still elude me.
A lot of things elude youQuote:
Is is sacred relics? ancient scrolls?
 Quote:
Or is it just religious zealotry?
 Quote:
Some kind of eternal throne on earth for the Israelites?
Pretty shitty throne compared to what the rest of the middle east has. A bit thorny, in fact.
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SlashOZ
:D



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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14396260 - 05/03/11 07:27 PM (13 years, 18 days ago) |
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Zappa is right. At this point in the game you can recognize the Israel is just a bad idea to begin with but its already entrenched. There isn't anything short of all out war from the United States or China that is going to make Israel go away. Best thing we can do is be their ally, pull our troops out of the region, and tell Israel to keep shit under control and call us if they need a no fly zone or UN security council approval. Fuck I hate Israel....
-------------------- "Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose "Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS "When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi "Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson. "Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
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GazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214]
#14397969 - 05/04/11 01:27 AM (13 years, 18 days ago) |
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Israels founding was legal in the eyes of the Western world but not in the eyes of most of the people of the Middle East. There can never be a fully objective legal truth in a situation like this. To my mind, a bunch of Europeans dont really have any right to go and live in a foreign country just because some people in the past happened to believe the same religous fairy tales that they do.
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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SlashOZ
:D



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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14399311 - 05/04/11 10:42 AM (13 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
GazzBut said: Israels founding was legal in the eyes of the Western world but not in the eyes of most of the people of the Middle East. There can never be a fully objective legal truth in a situation like this. To my mind, a bunch of Europeans dont really have any right to go and live in a foreign country just because some people in the past happened to believe the same religous fairy tales that they do.
There are many different types of Jewish Zionist. Not all of them believe in the bible. Many of the leaders of the Jewish Zionist movement were not at all concerned with the old testament and instead wanted a country for their people free of persecution (see most of European, Russian, etc history of persecuting the jews).
-------------------- "Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose "Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS "When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi "Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson. "Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14399327 - 05/04/11 10:47 AM (13 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
GazzBut said: Israels founding was legal in the eyes of the Western world but not in the eyes of most of the people of the Middle East. There can never be a fully objective legal truth in a situation like this. To my mind, a bunch of Europeans dont really have any right to go and live in a foreign country just because some people in the past happened to believe the same religous fairy tales that they do.
If the founding of Israel is illegal than the founding of every single nation in the mid-east and Europe is illegal. And they have the right to live there if the government there says they do. Every country has the right to control it's immigration policies.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: lines]
#14399407 - 05/04/11 11:10 AM (13 years, 18 days ago) |
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> Well I'm not comfortable with Israel taking my tax dollars.
It is unlikely that any of your tax money is making it to Israel. I don't like the idea of any tax money going to any foreign nation, but if they are going to give away our money, I would prefer to see it go to a friendly democratic country such as Israel rather than a shithole country that hates us, such as Pakistan.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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GazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14399685 - 05/04/11 12:16 PM (13 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
f the founding of Israel is illegal than the founding of every single nation in the mid-east and Europe is illegal.
Would you care to explain how that makes any kind of sense? And why wouldnt the founding of the US fall into the same bracket?
Quote:
And they have the right to live there if the government there says they do.
Which government are you referring to?
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: Shins]
#14399689 - 05/04/11 12:17 PM (13 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
GazzBut said: Israels founding was legal in the eyes of the Western world but not in the eyes of most of the people of the Middle East. There can never be a fully objective legal truth in a situation like this. To my mind, a bunch of Europeans dont really have any right to go and live in a foreign country just because some people in the past happened to believe the same religous fairy tales that they do.
What is a "fully objective legal truth" and what does it have to do with this thread? I don't understand what your trying to express here. If your claiming there is some legal/moral argument that demonstrates Israeli shouldn't have been founded/continued, then that is the entire point of this thread and your assertion is therefore conclusory as to the topic without providing any evidence or explanation of your position.
What does whether a bunch of Europeans have or do not have the right to go an live in a foreign country have to do with anything- with or without conforming beliefs? a) that is not the question, b) you've failed to demonstrate how this argument relates to the question. It seems like your trying to argue against a very particular, alas unstated, argument for Israel's creation, but its not too helpful as this cherry-picked justification's validity is not neccesary for Israel to not be wrongly created-maintained. If your aim is not to argue against this cherry-picked agument for Israel's founding then I have no idea what its point is as you fail to identify it.
Quote:
SlashOZ said:
Quote:
GazzBut said: Israels founding was legal in the eyes of the Western world but not in the eyes of most of the people of the Middle East. There can never be a fully objective legal truth in a situation like this. To my mind, a bunch of Europeans dont really have any right to go and live in a foreign country just because some people in the past happened to believe the same religous fairy tales that they do.
There are many different types of Jewish Zionist. Not all of them believe in the bible. Many of the leaders of the Jewish Zionist movement were not at all concerned with the old testament and instead wanted a country for their people free of persecution (see most of European, Russian, etc history of persecuting the jews).
Right, there are many reasons why Israel could be wrongly created/maintained. Disproving an apparently-arbitrarily selected justification for its creation has nothing to do with the question of whetehr Israel's existance is bad. I don't understand what this has to do with anything.
Quote:
Shins said: So lets get real here, what are the real reasons for a new crusade?
The underlying reasons still elude me.
Is is sacred relics? ancient scrolls?
Or is it just religious zealotry?
Some kind of eternal throne on earth for the Israelites?
WTF are you talking about? What is all this crap? If you want to talk about crusades or made up nonsense (or 'truths' that are demonstrated by watching youtube videos or 'having an open mind') please take it somewhere else.
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GazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: SlashOZ]
#14399692 - 05/04/11 12:17 PM (13 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
There are many different types of Jewish Zionist. Not all of them believe in the bible. Many of the leaders of the Jewish Zionist movement were not at all concerned with the old testament and instead wanted a country for their people free of persecution (see most of European, Russian, etc history of persecuting the jews).
So what gave them the right to up sticks and take over land that was in no way whatsoever theirs?
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14399696 - 05/04/11 12:18 PM (13 years, 18 days ago) |
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The sticks did. That is how nature works, its always been that way for billions of years.
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GazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214] 3
#14399846 - 05/04/11 12:48 PM (13 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
What is a "fully objective legal truth" and what does it have to do with this thread?
My god you are so tedious! My post was clearly in response to the title of your thread. If there are specific guidelines that need to be followed as to what does and does not fully merit being considered relevant to the thread perhaps you should post them at the start?
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I don't understand what your trying to express here.
Thats probably because your too busy thumbing through your theseaurus and thinking about how to formulate your next overly complicated and patronising reply to actually bother trying to really understand what anybody else is saying.
My post consisted of 77 words in fairly plain English. I think it is quite clear what I was saying but let me try and clear it up for you John with some bulletpoints:
* The legality of the founding of Israel depends on your point of view. Neither of these points of view can be shown to have any special validity in an objective sense,they are merely subjective judgements made by specific groups of people - As you asked was Israels founding bad I was trying to explain that I dont think there is a definitive legal arguement that can be used to either prove or disprove that claim.
* I then gave my opinion that religous fairy tales do not give anybody the right to claim a piece of land as their own.
Quote:
What does whether a bunch of Europeans have or do not have the right to go an live in a foreign country have to do with anything- with or without conforming beliefs? a) that is not the question, b) you've failed to demonstrate how this argument relates to the question. It seems like your trying to argue against a very particular, alas unstated, argument for Israel's creation, but its not too helpful as this cherry-picked justification's validity is not neccesary for Israel to not be wrongly created-maintained. If your aim is not to argue against this cherry-picked agument for Israel's founding then I have no idea what its point is as you fail to identify it.
Oh get off your high horse! Re-read the title of your thread and realise that I have simply given my opinion. This is the Shroomery John, not Harvard fucking debate school.
So we are clear, I think the creation of Israel was not so much bad as an act of calculated imperialism that borders on the evil. To anyone with half a brain it is so clearly obvious that geo politics has been behind this from the very start. The way the West has meddled in this region as a whole for well over a century now is a disgrace. Its all fuelled by the raging, egotistical greed of unevolved monkeys and in the future, if we make it that far, we will look back and laugh at the pathetically stupid games we have played and how easy it was for a small bunch of evil fucks to convince the sheeple that they were the good guys working for the greater good of humanity.
FUCK ISRAEL!
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14400094 - 05/04/11 01:54 PM (13 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
GazzBut said:
Quote:
f the founding of Israel is illegal than the founding of every single nation in the mid-east and Europe is illegal.
Would you care to explain how that makes any kind of sense? And why wouldnt the founding of the US fall into the same bracket?
Every single nation in Europe and the Mid-East has had their boundaries determined by conquerors. OK, if you want to say the US, too although we bought a lot of it from other conquerors. Quote:
Quote:
And they have the right to live there if the government there says they do.
Which government are you referring to?
The Israeli government. Duh.
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GazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod] 1
#14403770 - 05/05/11 05:44 AM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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The Israeli government. Duh.
You are kidding right? There was no Israeli govenerment when the Jews started turning up en masse.
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14404247 - 05/05/11 08:52 AM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
GazzBut said:
Quote:
What is a "fully objective legal truth" and what does it have to do with this thread?
My god you are so tedious! My post was clearly in response to the title of your thread. If there are specific guidelines that need to be followed as to what does and does not fully merit being considered relevant to the thread perhaps you should post them at the start?
I really don't understand your objection. The only way it seems to make any sense is if you are reluctant to defend what you've said for whatever reason. I have only responded to what you've said. If this is tedious then I would imagine the fault lies with you- how else may an issue be discussed but through addressing the points raised?
I understand the reply is likely proffered for some point thought relevant to the central question- I don't get your incredulity at my question, hoever; even granting this. How is the fact that I understand what the point was offered to demonstrate of any assistance in understanding what that point actually is and how it relates, logically, to the question?
I really don't see any legitimate objection here- please correct me if I'm mistaken.
Quote:
Quote:
I don't understand what your trying to express here.
Thats probably because your too busy thumbing through your theseaurus and thinking about how to formulate your next overly complicated and patronising reply to actually bother trying to really understand what anybody else is saying.
I assume this is just intended as an insult to my person and manner of writing. It doesn't seem very nice or helpful, especially as you don't explain your conclusions and thereby prevent them from being constructive.
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So your arguing there is nothing inherently wrong with Israel's creation?
No, as I said, I am asking whether there is anything wrong with Israel's existance or creation- read the original post. That a particular argument is identified as unsound does not imply that a correct argument as to the matter is known. I can tell some wacky Israel criticism is garbage without knowing whether there are any valid criticisms. Previously you've made a bunch of strawman attacks premised upon this relatively elementary fallacy.
Quote:
My post consisted of 77 words in fairly plain English. I think it is quite clear what I was saying but let me try and clear it up for you John with some bulletpoints:
* The legality of the founding of Israel depends on your point of view. Neither of these points of view can be shown to have any special validity in an objective sense,they are merely subjective judgements made by specific groups of people -
So your arguing there is nothing inherently wrong with Israel's creation? If the matter is subjective and legitimate views that Israeel is fine both morally and legally may be held, then it would seem the question would have to be answered in the negative: that there isn't anything inherently wrong with the creation of maintanance of Israel because the matter is a function of personal preference (or perhaps you mean to claim no law/morals exist- either way). Is this correct? If not, why?
Quote:
As you asked was Israels founding bad I was trying to explain that I dont think there is a definitive legal arguement that can be used to either prove or disprove that claim.
I don't see the explanation: I see you declaring various conclusions: what have you explained in this regard?
As for definitive legal arguments: how about that Israel was created legitimately because its territory was obtained in a legal transaction: the prior owner with lawful soveriegnty ceeded the land to Israel who thereafter has excercised de jure and de facto jurisdiction.
As this complies with international law, including such rightfully applied to states with an interest in the matter, wouldn't this be fairly objective? You seem to simply declare the matter a subjective one, but I'm interested in the justification for either position, not endorsements.
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* I then gave my opinion that religous fairy tales do not give anybody the right to claim a piece of land as their own.
Yes, and since that doesn't seem dispositive of the issue, I said I don't understand what the point is- you seem to be arguing what doesn't justify Israel's existance or the existance of other puported states, rather than whether Israel is or is not justified in existing.
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What does whether a bunch of Europeans have or do not have the right to go an live in a foreign country have to do with anything- with or without conforming beliefs? a) that is not the question, b) you've failed to demonstrate how this argument relates to the question. It seems like your trying to argue against a very particular, alas unstated, argument for Israel's creation, but its not too helpful as this cherry-picked justification's validity is not neccesary for Israel to not be wrongly created-maintained. If your aim is not to argue against this cherry-picked agument for Israel's founding then I have no idea what its point is as you fail to identify it.
Oh get off your high horse! Re-read the title of your thread and realise that I have simply given my opinion. This is the Shroomery John, not Harvard fucking debate school.
Are you replying in good faith? If your just going to have a hissy fit or make emotional outbursts like this I don't wnat to speak with you and I doubt the on-topic forums are the place for your tantrums.
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So we are clear, I think the creation of Israel was not so much bad as an act of calculated imperialism that borders on the evil.
How so? The state obtained the land in a voluntary transaction and the land is governed by local people and government. How is this imperial in any way? It would seem the other states and their residents seeking to overthrow Israel would be the imperialists- that is if the term wasn't just used a slur with little real meaning.
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how easy it was for a small bunch of evil fucks to convince the sheeple that they were the good guys working for the greater good of humanity.
FUCK ISRAEL!
Reductio ad Lambchop
Not too convincing
Edited by johnm214 (05/05/11 09:17 AM)
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
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Loc: Americas
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14404285 - 05/05/11 09:01 AM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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DieCommie said: The sticks did. That is how nature works, its always been that way for billions of years.
Didn't the fact that the previous defacto and dejure sovereign had voluntary ceeded the land to the state, and that its creation was in compliance with international law and UN rulings, have quite a bit to do with givingn them the rights to put up sticks as well?
To charecterize the creation of teh state as simply a seizure of jurisdiction, as others seem to do with the 'setting up sticks' metaphor, seems pretty dishonest. They were given the sovereignty voluntarily- that they continue to maintain it with the sticks is just another point in their favor.
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GazzBut said:
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The Israeli government. Duh.
You are kidding right? There was no Israeli govenerment when the Jews started turning up en masse.
What is the relevance? If "they" didn't have the right to liver there before, what does this matter? The Israel government is cool with it, if some other previous state wasn't, then so what?
I'm a bit confused by your stance though: previously you stated fairy tales aren't justification to decide residency, citezinship, et cet. Now you seem to suggest nationality is- is this correct? If not, on what ground do you base your skepticism of the legality of the settlement of various peoples in the area? (obviously the issue of 'rights' you raised is irreelvant- just because they don't have a right to residency doesn't mean their residency was wrongful. A right is something a person is owed, they may just as easily be given a privledge or allowed one to the same effects. For this reason I've ignored your "rights" qualifier as spurious).
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lines
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: Seuss] 1
#14405489 - 05/05/11 02:14 PM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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Seuss said: It is unlikely that any of your tax money is making it to Israel.
The government gets its money from taxes, a percentage of everyones money makes it to Israel, Israel gets billions every year.
Whether or not Israel exists means nothing to me, I just don't want to pay for it.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: lines]
#14405860 - 05/05/11 03:33 PM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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Israel's aid money comes from federal income taxes. Poorer people dont pay federal income tax, they only pay social security and state taxes, which does not fund Israel. That is what I think he was getting at.
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Shins
Fun guy



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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: DieCommie] 1
#14406008 - 05/05/11 04:07 PM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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That may be true diecommie, But the reality is that any money to Israel is most likely coming from deficit spending.
The end result is that it adds more on to the deficit, which devalues the dollar, which means everyone has to pay more for things.
Don;t forget about the more sneaky inflation tax, which by far affects poor people's standard of living the most.
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PMATL
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214]
#14408317 - 05/06/11 01:03 AM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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johnm214 said:
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DieCommie said: The sticks did. That is how nature works, its always been that way for billions of years.
Didn't the fact that the previous defacto and dejure sovereign had voluntary ceeded the land to the state, and that its creation was in compliance with international law and UN rulings, have quite a bit to do with givingn them the rights to put up sticks as well?
To charecterize the creation of teh state as simply a seizure of jurisdiction, as others seem to do with the 'setting up sticks' metaphor, seems pretty dishonest. They were given the sovereignty voluntarily- that they continue to maintain it with the sticks is just another point in their favor.
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GazzBut said:
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The Israeli government. Duh.
You are kidding right? There was no Israeli govenerment when the Jews started turning up en masse.
What is the relevance? If "they" didn't have the right to liver there before, what does this matter? The Israel government is cool with it, if some other previous state wasn't, then so what?
I'm a bit confused by your stance though: previously you stated fairy tales aren't justification to decide residency, citezinship, et cet. Now you seem to suggest nationality is- is this correct? If not, on what ground do you base your skepticism of the legality of the settlement of various peoples in the area? (obviously the issue of 'rights' you raised is irreelvant- just because they don't have a right to residency doesn't mean their residency was wrongful. A right is something a person is owed, they may just as easily be given a privledge or allowed one to the same effects. For this reason I've ignored your "rights" qualifier as spurious).
 Dude, come on. You cannot possibly be this pretentious and this thick at the same time. The previous "de jure and de facto" (seriously with this vocab?) government was The British Empire. The Christians. The White Man. Europe. The West. The Infidels.
It's not as if the governor of the protectorate went around polling the average Arab Muslim and asking him whether he wanted to voluntarily cede his holy land to Jews. The British were trying to abandon their former empire because they couldn't pay for it any longer, and Europe felt bad for the Jews so they decided to give them Israel. (Just like in the Bible. How cute.) It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why your average Middle Easterner thinks thats bullshit.
Yeah, the Arabs had always been living under the "foreign imperial power" of the Ottoman Empire, but at least those dudes were Muslims too, and certainly weren't gonna invite the jews back.
-------------------- It is impossible to convey the life-sensation of any given epoch of one's existence--that which makes its truth, its meaning--its subtle and penetrating essence. It is impossible. We live, as we dream--alone. It's legs to walk and thoughts to fly Eyes that laugh and lips that cry A restless tongue to classify, All born to grow and grown to die
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GazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214]
#14408416 - 05/06/11 01:43 AM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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I'm a bit confused by your stance though: previously you stated fairy tales aren't justification to decide residency, citezinship, et cet. Now you seem to suggest nationality is- is this correct?
I am saying the people who had been living there before the Jews decided to leave Europe had rights purely by the virtue of being there first, in my opinion. The British prevented Palestinian self-determination at the end of the first world war which allowed the Jews to establish a foothold there. Obviously the Jews also legally purchased alot of land but land ownership should not equate to political control of the land. The Palestinian people, the everyday souls who lived on the land, were particularly vulnerable at this time and the the Jews took full advantage of this fact.
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(obviously the issue of 'rights' you raised is irreelvant- just because they don't have a right to residency doesn't mean their residency was wrongful. A right is something a person is owed, they may just as easily be given a privledge or allowed one to the same effects. For this reason I've ignored your "rights" qualifier as spurious). D4D0C8
lol!
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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PMATL
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14409372 - 05/06/11 10:07 AM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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It's like telling the Native Americans we "legally" bought their land
-------------------- It is impossible to convey the life-sensation of any given epoch of one's existence--that which makes its truth, its meaning--its subtle and penetrating essence. It is impossible. We live, as we dream--alone. It's legs to walk and thoughts to fly Eyes that laugh and lips that cry A restless tongue to classify, All born to grow and grown to die
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Phred
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14409455 - 05/06/11 10:24 AM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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The British prevented Palestinian self-determination at the end of the first world war...
And the Ottoman Turks prevented it before that. What's your point?
Phred
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PMATL
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: Phred]
#14409494 - 05/06/11 10:33 AM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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Um.....that the Palestinian people did not voluntarily cede the land to their most hated ethnic/religious group. At least the Turks were Muslims too
And just because "the Turks did it before hand" doesn't make it right for Britain to do
"Well, the previous owner of this dog beat it; so whats the problem if I beat it too?"
-------------------- It is impossible to convey the life-sensation of any given epoch of one's existence--that which makes its truth, its meaning--its subtle and penetrating essence. It is impossible. We live, as we dream--alone. It's legs to walk and thoughts to fly Eyes that laugh and lips that cry A restless tongue to classify, All born to grow and grown to die
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zappaisgod
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: PMATL]
#14409537 - 05/06/11 10:44 AM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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The fucking Muslims got just about everything there except for one tiny sliver. Until they tried for the whole pie they could have lived in Israel with full voting rights. Jordan and Egypt wouldn't have anything to do with them. The people of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank were, respectively, Egyptian and Jordanian citizens. They lost the war, Egypt and Jordan should have taken their citizens back. But they didn't. Because even they know these fucking assholes are insane monsters.
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GazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14409553 - 05/06/11 10:48 AM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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Which ever way you look at it a bunch of wealthy Europeans marched into a foreign land and felt compelled to claim it as their own based on a book of fairy tales. Well out of order.
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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GazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: Phred]
#14409557 - 05/06/11 10:49 AM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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Work it out for yourself Phred, I grow weary of willful obtusiveness.
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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Phred
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: PMATL]
#14409572 - 05/06/11 10:51 AM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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Um.....that the Palestinian people did not voluntarily cede the land to their most hated ethnic/religious group.
And what country today exists because an original people voluntarily ceded the land to the present administrators? That's right, folks... none. Yet no one questions the validity of the existence of Canada or Australia or Spain or Denmark or Belize or Brazil or Jordan.... only of Israel. Israel is unique in the world in that regard.
Next, what's all this about the Jews having been the most hated (by "Palestinians") ethnic/religious group? I thought all you progressives insist that the problem is not that the Palis hate Jews for being Jews, but for having "stolen" the land. How could they have been hated by the "Palestinians" before they stole the land?
Your Freudian slip reveals your actual beliefs about the situation - it's not that someone "stole" the land, it's that Jews did.
Phred
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14409606 - 05/06/11 10:58 AM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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Which ever way you look at it a bunch of wealthy Europeans marched into a foreign land and felt compelled to claim it as their own based on a book of fairy tales.
And how does this differ from a bunch of wealthy Europeans marching into a foreign land and claiming it as their own in South America? Or in Africa? Or in North America? Or in Australia? Or New Zealand? Or in Asia? Are you trying to tell us this has never occurred?
Yet no one questions the legitimacy of such conquered-by-wealthy-Europeans states as Brazil or Belize or Canada. Just Israel.
Why the difference?
Phred
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GazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: Phred]
#14409623 - 05/06/11 11:02 AM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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Of course, all of the cases you mention are just as heinous. But where did I say that they arent? The topic of this thread was Israel, please try and stay on topic.
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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Phred
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14409715 - 05/06/11 11:24 AM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
The topic of this thread was Israel, please try and stay on topic.
John's point, and his point in the previous thread he started on the same subject, was to try to determine why Israel - and only Israel - is widely considered to be an "illegitimate" state while other states with even more dubious claims to legitimacy are not so considered.
For example, no one considers Jordan to be an illegitimate state. Yet the rulers of Jordan have no more right to be its administrators (arguably way less right, being a dictatorship) than do the administrators of Israel.
So when I rebut your "explanation" for why Israel should be considered illegitimate by pointing out your reasons are not applied to any state other than Israel, I am dead-bang on topic.
Phred
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GazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: Phred]
#14409763 - 05/06/11 11:32 AM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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I disagree.
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14409772 - 05/06/11 11:34 AM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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You disagree that Jordan is considered a legitimate state?
Phred
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: Phred]
#14409974 - 05/06/11 12:12 PM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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Why should Israel be held to a different standard than any other nation?
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: Phred] 1
#14409981 - 05/06/11 12:13 PM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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Phred said: And what country today exists because an original people voluntarily ceded the land to the present administrators? That's right, folks... none. Yet no one questions the validity of the existence of Canada or Australia or Spain or Denmark or Belize or Brazil or Jordan.... only of Israel. Israel is unique in the world in that regard.
It's not unique. Nobody questions the validity of the existence of Canada because the conquered people of Canada are no longer resisting. They lost, end of story. When the Soviet Union still existed, much of the world saw the occupation of Central Europe and the Baltic states as illegitimate (even if the respective governments were formally recognized) because the citizens of these countries were for the most part not complacent (resistance movements in Poland and the Baltic states into the 80s, uprisings in Czechoslovakia and Hungary).
Native Americans for the most part have given up fighting against the government of the US. To the extent that they haven't, some people still do challenge the legitimacy of the "occupiers". This is a fringe position because the number of American Indians still challenging this is about 5. Again, they lost, end of story.
Today there aren't that many situations like Israel simply because they've all mostly been crushed into submission or because those that continue to fight are in such a small minority as to not be taken seriously. To some, the wars in Afghanistan (going back to Soviet occupation) and Chechnya are seen as a struggle of the indigenous population against a foreign occupying force. There are probably a dozen parallels to Israel in Africa as well, but most people (including me) don't know enough, or care enough, about Africa to say anything.
Israel might get the most attention for a variety of reasons but it is not unique in the claims against it.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: ChuangTzu]
#14410007 - 05/06/11 12:18 PM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
ChuangTzu said:
Quote:
Phred said: And what country today exists because an original people voluntarily ceded the land to the present administrators? That's right, folks... none. Yet no one questions the validity of the existence of Canada or Australia or Spain or Denmark or Belize or Brazil or Jordan.... only of Israel. Israel is unique in the world in that regard.
It's not unique. Nobody questions the validity of the existence of Canada because the conquered people of Canada are no longer resisting. They lost, end of story. When the Soviet Union still existed, much of the world saw the occupation of Central Europe and the Baltic states as illegitimate (even if the respective governments were formally recognized) because the citizens of these countries were for the most part not complacent (resistance movements in Poland and the Baltic states into the 80s, uprisings in Czechoslovakia and Hungary).
Native Americans for the most part have given up fighting against the government of the US. To the extent that they haven't, some people still do challenge the legitimacy of the "occupiers". This is a fringe position because the number of American Indians still challenging this is about 5. Again, they lost, end of story.
Today there aren't that many situations like Israel simply because they've all mostly been crushed into submission or because those that continue to fight are in such a small minority as to not be taken seriously. To some, the wars in Afghanistan (going back to Soviet occupation) and Chechnya are seen as a struggle of the indigenous population against a foreign occupying force. There are probably a dozen parallels to Israel in Africa as well, but most people (including me) don't know enough, or care enough, about Africa to say anything.
Israel might get the most attention for a variety of reasons but it is not unique in the claims against it.
Are you saying that Israel would have more validity if they had completely eradicated the Muslims in their midst? Think carefully about your answer. You seem to be calling for genocide as the only acceptable means to establish unquestioned national validity.
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14410792 - 05/06/11 03:10 PM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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zappaisgod said: Are you saying that Israel would have more validity if they had completely eradicated the Muslims in their midst?
No. While that might work in the long run, the local muslim population has strong ties to non-local muslim populations. It would take a long time for them to get over that (100+ years? Maybe longer if they outright murdered everyone of them, and shorter if they "merely" evicted them all).
Quote:
Think carefully about your answer. You seem to be calling for genocide as the only acceptable means to establish unquestioned national validity.
I didn't intend to provide a solution to the problem. Perhaps there isn't a very good one at this point.
All I'm saying is that it ain't over 'til it's over. While the war might be as good as won by the Israelis, their opposition hasn't quit yet, so talking about Israel as being legitimate based on the outcome of a war isn't really correct, since the war is still ongoing.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: ChuangTzu]
#14411475 - 05/06/11 05:33 PM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
ChuangTzu said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Are you saying that Israel would have more validity if they had completely eradicated the Muslims in their midst?
No. While that might work in the long run, the local muslim population has strong ties to non-local muslim populations. It would take a long time for them to get over that (100+ years? Maybe longer if they outright murdered everyone of them, and shorter if they "merely" evicted them all).
That has nothing to do with the question. The question wasn't at all about practicality, it was strictly about legal niceties, i.e. validity. Quote:
Quote:
Think carefully about your answer. You seem to be calling for genocide as the only acceptable means to establish unquestioned national validity.
I didn't intend to provide a solution to the problem. Perhaps there isn't a very good one at this point.
All I'm saying is that it ain't over 'til it's over. While the war might be as good as won by the Israelis, their opposition hasn't quit yet, so talking about Israel as being legitimate based on the outcome of a war isn't really correct, since the war is still ongoing.
Since it aint over, in your mind, until there is absolute surrender I ask again, under your qualifications, don't the Israelis have to eradicate the Muslims in their midst to achieve a valid state? The reason they haven't done it isn't because they couldn't, you know. They fucking well could. What would you have to say if they did?
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Shins
Fun guy



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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14411576 - 05/06/11 05:55 PM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
GazzBut said: Which ever way you look at it a bunch of wealthy Europeans marched into a foreign land and felt compelled to claim it as their own based on a book of fairy tales. Well out of order.
Sounds like a modern day crusade to me.
PS: Out of curiosity, WHY were "the jews" kicked out of almost every other country?
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: Shins]
#14411607 - 05/06/11 06:00 PM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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Because they didn't assimilate.
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Shins
Fun guy



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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: DieCommie]
#14411613 - 05/06/11 06:02 PM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: Because they didn't assimilate.
Can you expand on that, i'm sure it's a bt more complex than that.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: Shins]
#14411630 - 05/06/11 06:06 PM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
Quote:
GazzBut said: Which ever way you look at it a bunch of wealthy Europeans marched into a foreign land and felt compelled to claim it as their own based on a book of fairy tales. Well out of order.
Sounds like a modern day crusade to me.
PS: Out of curiosity, WHY were "the jews" kicked out of almost every other country?
I dunno. Why?
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Shins
Fun guy



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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14411665 - 05/06/11 06:11 PM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Shins said:
Quote:
GazzBut said: Which ever way you look at it a bunch of wealthy Europeans marched into a foreign land and felt compelled to claim it as their own based on a book of fairy tales. Well out of order.
Sounds like a modern day crusade to me.
PS: Out of curiosity, WHY were "the jews" kicked out of almost every other country?
I dunno. Why?
Honestly, I'm not sure 
My guess is it had something to do with rampant Usury, Jewish supremacism, inclusiveness, Christian persecution, as well as some perception of Jews being "evil."
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PMATL
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: Phred]
#14411923 - 05/06/11 07:04 PM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said:
Quote:
Um.....that the Palestinian people did not voluntarily cede the land to their most hated ethnic/religious group.
And what country today exists because an original people voluntarily ceded the land to the present administrators? That's right, folks... none. Yet no one questions the validity of the existence of Canada or Australia or Spain or Denmark or Belize or Brazil or Jordan.... only of Israel. Israel is unique in the world in that regard.
Next, what's all this about the Jews having been the most hated (by "Palestinians") ethnic/religious group? I thought all you progressives insist that the problem is not that the Palis hate Jews for being Jews, but for having "stolen" the land. How could they have been hated by the "Palestinians" before they stole the land?
Your Freudian slip reveals your actual beliefs about the situation - it's not that someone "stole" the land, it's that Jews did.
Phred
I'm not a progressive and that wasn't a Freudian slip. They were hated by Muslims because the Muslim book of fairy tales and Mohammed the pedophile tell them that unbelievers are inferior people and will rot in hell for eternity. Much like illiterate dark-age Christians hated Jews. Probably because Jews are generally smart and get rich wherever they go.
Also, Canada, Brazil, USA etc. were all founded in the 17th-18th centuries, when that shit was less frowned upon than was in 1948. The could basically do away with the native populations without college students protesting it...
Not that I side with the Arabs. Isreal modernized the country more in the first 5 years than the Palestinians had in the last 2000, and if the Palestinians weren't such dumb violent fucks they would still have half of the holy land. But I understand their beef
-------------------- It is impossible to convey the life-sensation of any given epoch of one's existence--that which makes its truth, its meaning--its subtle and penetrating essence. It is impossible. We live, as we dream--alone. It's legs to walk and thoughts to fly Eyes that laugh and lips that cry A restless tongue to classify, All born to grow and grown to die
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PMATL
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: Shins]
#14411934 - 05/06/11 07:06 PM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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They were always the 'other' in society wherever they went, thus subject to persecution. They kept to themselves and followed a religion that nobody really understood, so they figured their rituals involved shit like eating Christian/Muslim babies.
Also nobody likes bankers
-------------------- It is impossible to convey the life-sensation of any given epoch of one's existence--that which makes its truth, its meaning--its subtle and penetrating essence. It is impossible. We live, as we dream--alone. It's legs to walk and thoughts to fly Eyes that laugh and lips that cry A restless tongue to classify, All born to grow and grown to die
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14411949 - 05/06/11 07:10 PM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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zappaisgod said: That has nothing to do with the question. The question wasn't at all about practicality, it was strictly about legal niceties, i.e. validity.
The question is why is Israel treated any differently than some other conquered territory. My answer was that it's because it's not completely conquered yet. Legal validity, more or less, goes to the victor, I think we agree to that. It's pretty clear that they haven't completely won yet.
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Since it aint over, in your mind, until there is absolute surrender I ask again, under your qualifications, don't the Israelis have to eradicate the Muslims in their midst to achieve a valid state? The reason they haven't done it isn't because they couldn't, you know. They fucking well could. What would you have to say if they did?
I wouldn't say that's the only way, and I wouldn't say that would necessarily work (there are external forces fighting against them as well, and there would probably be more if they exterminated anyone). I'm sure there are even legitimate countries around today that exist on land from which all traces of the indigenous population have been removed (Cuba, for example, could be a legitimate country some day if a non-fucked up government could ever be established there and there is just about 0 trace of any of the original inhabitants or their descendants). It just takes a really long time. In the case of Cuba, it probably helps that it happened before the internet and the Cuban natives didn't really have ties with foreign natives.
What would I think if they did? It doesn't matter what I think, the world would be outraged and Israel would have other problems. They are fucked either way it seems. There is probably a moral here somewhere... something about building a home in a bee's nest maybe...
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Phred
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: PMATL]
#14411956 - 05/06/11 07:11 PM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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They were hated by Muslims because the Muslim book of fairy tales and Mohammed the pedophile tell them that unbelievers are inferior people and will rot in hell for eternity.
So your position is that if the British had decided to transfer the administration of that sliver of land over to... oh... let's say Lutherans... the Palis would have reacted the same? What about Buddhists? Because, let's face it, Lutherans and Buddhists are also unbelievers.
And would the legitimacy of Israel have been as much in question today by the non-Palestinian world if said Lutherans (or Buddhists or whatever) were running the show today? If not, why not?
Phred
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PMATL
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: Phred]
#14412071 - 05/06/11 07:36 PM (13 years, 15 days ago) |
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Phred
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Phred said:
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They were hated by Muslims because the Muslim book of fairy tales and Mohammed the pedophile tell them that unbelievers are inferior people and will rot in hell for eternity.
So your position is that if the British had decided to transfer the administration of that sliver of land over to... oh... let's say Lutherans... the Palis would have reacted the same? What about Buddhists? Because, let's face it, Lutherans and Buddhists are also unbelievers.
And would the legitimacy of Israel have been as much in question today by the non-Palestinian world if said Lutherans (or Buddhists or whatever) were running the show today? If not, why not?
Phred
It probably would've provoked a similar reaction. There's probably more animosity towards Jews in the Muslim world now than there is against Christians, but that also relates to the fact that its the Jews who are occupying their perceived "holy land."
It would also depend of the foreign policy of said Lutheran/Buddhist state. Israel has been pretty fucking aggressive and hasn't done much to make friends since their founding. Not that they didn't have good reason, but still
-------------------- It is impossible to convey the life-sensation of any given epoch of one's existence--that which makes its truth, its meaning--its subtle and penetrating essence. It is impossible. We live, as we dream--alone. It's legs to walk and thoughts to fly Eyes that laugh and lips that cry A restless tongue to classify, All born to grow and grown to die
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: PMATL]
#14412454 - 05/06/11 08:52 PM (13 years, 15 days ago) |
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> but that also relates to the fact that its the Jews who are occupying their perceived "holy land."
From what most religious nutjobs claim, the entire world is their perceived "holy land". Christians gotta spread Christianity to the world. Muslims gotta spread Islam to the world. Jews gotta... woah, hmm...
And speaking of perceived "holy land", Christians, Jews, and Muslims all three claim that region as their "special place". Why do the Muslim claims get more weight than the Jewish or Christian claims? I'd say which ever religion is oldest probably has the most legitimate claim.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: PMATL]
#14413183 - 05/06/11 11:40 PM (13 years, 15 days ago) |
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GazzBut said:
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I'm a bit confused by your stance though: previously you stated fairy tales aren't justification to decide residency, citezinship, et cet. Now you seem to suggest nationality is- is this correct?
I am saying the people who had been living there before the Jews decided to leave Europe had rights purely by the virtue of being there first, in my opinion.
No one's arguing whether they didn't have rights- everyone agrees they did. The issue is over soveriegnty and the legitimacy of it. If you mean that the people first their had rights to install a government, to the exclusions of others, then how does that lead to Israel being bad? Are you arbitrarily limiting the temporal range considered to exclude periods before the arab conquest of the land? You have not said how the criteria you favor supports your claim, and it seems like its arbitrary or counterproductive for reasons discussed above.
If, on the other hand, you only consider people living presently at the time of the determination, on the other hand, it would seem you'd have to concede Israel is legitimate by means of the present makeup of the areas they administer and the democratic institution in power.
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lol!
Is there some objection to the argument? Along with your prior comments, I wonder if this is just ridicule unrelated to the topic. If it is, I wish you'd stop.
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PMATL said:
 Dude, come on. You cannot possibly be this pretentious and this thick at the same time. The previous "de jure and de facto" (seriously with this vocab?) government was The British Empire. The Christians. The White Man. Europe. The West. The Infidels.
What is pretentious about my post?
Additionally, you criticize the words I've used, but haven't explained how they are improper or a problem. How would you have me describe the concepts of de jure and de facto sovereignty in a better way? Any alternative I could imagine would be unclear and tedious- requiring more space to describe concepts which these two terms describe. I really don't see what your problem with this is. (I'd note that the point is quite relevant given the various organizations which have claimed statehood in the region, especially in the arab lands right now, which lack one and often booth of these justifications for claiming sovereignty, and thereby would not be recognized as a state by pretty much anyone- let alone under international law)
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The previous "de jure and de facto" (seriously with this vocab?) government was The British Empire. The Christians. The White Man. Europe. The West. The Infidels.
What is your point?
Yes, they would be considered one of the previous soverigns, and that seems a convincing argument for at least the legality and legitimacy of the Israeli state- given it was from them (might have been the UN, but at least they were the previous owners) which the state obtained the territory.
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GazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214]
#14413359 - 05/07/11 12:37 AM (13 years, 15 days ago) |
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John why are you struggling to understand what I am saying?
1) A native population existed in Palestine, although not under any particular government
2) European Jews decided to move their en masse for no good reason other than their book of Fairy tales told them to.
3) With the help of the British they managed to eventually take control of the land.
I consider this process wrong. Just because a similar process may have happened prior to this in other countries does not change my feeling that this is wrong. The way the Israelis continue to try and expand their land today is wrong, in my opinion. The way they try and keep the Palestinians in a state of economic hell is wrong, in my opinion. The way they bulldoze down houses illegally is wrong, in my opinion.
Zappa is fond of telling us that the "fucking Muslims" acted like animals etc etc and got what they deserved (or words to that effect) whilst conveniently ignoring the barbarism displayed by the Israelis.
You are welcome to pick apart what I have said like some ill equipped law student but I would prefer to hear your actual opinion on the matter.
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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PMATL
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214]
#14413522 - 05/07/11 01:48 AM (13 years, 15 days ago) |
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johnm214 said:
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GazzBut said:
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I'm a bit confused by your stance though: previously you stated fairy tales aren't justification to decide residency, citezinship, et cet. Now you seem to suggest nationality is- is this correct?
I am saying the people who had been living there before the Jews decided to leave Europe had rights purely by the virtue of being there first, in my opinion.
No one's arguing whether they didn't have rights- everyone agrees they did. The issue is over soveriegnty and the legitimacy of it. If you mean that the people first their had rights to install a government, to the exclusions of others, then how does that lead to Israel being bad? Are you arbitrarily limiting the temporal range considered to exclude periods before the arab conquest of the land? You have not said how the criteria you favor supports your claim, and it seems like its arbitrary or counterproductive for reasons discussed above.
If, on the other hand, you only consider people living presently at the time of the determination, on the other hand, it would seem you'd have to concede Israel is legitimate by means of the present makeup of the areas they administer and the democratic institution in power.
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lol!
Is there some objection to the argument? Along with your prior comments, I wonder if this is just ridicule unrelated to the topic. If it is, I wish you'd stop.
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PMATL said:
 Dude, come on. You cannot possibly be this pretentious and this thick at the same time. The previous "de jure and de facto" (seriously with this vocab?) government was The British Empire. The Christians. The White Man. Europe. The West. The Infidels.
What is pretentious about my post?
Additionally, you criticize the words I've used, but haven't explained how they are improper or a problem. How would you have me describe the concepts of de jure and de facto sovereignty in a better way? Any alternative I could imagine would be unclear and tedious- requiring more space to describe concepts which these two terms describe. I really don't see what your problem with this is. (I'd note that the point is quite relevant given the various organizations which have claimed statehood in the region, especially in the arab lands right now, which lack one and often booth of these justifications for claiming sovereignty, and thereby would not be recognized as a state by pretty much anyone- let alone under international law)
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The previous "de jure and de facto" (seriously with this vocab?) government was The British Empire. The Christians. The White Man. Europe. The West. The Infidels.
What is your point?
Yes, they would be considered one of the previous soverigns, and that seems a convincing argument for at least the legality and legitimacy of the Israeli state- given it was from them (might have been the UN, but at least they were the previous owners) which the state obtained the territory.
The words themselves aren't necessarily a problem, it's just your writing style comes across as a college student trying to cram as many SAT words into their essay as possible. But whatever, it's irrelevant and I'm sorry I brought it up because it detracts from the point i'm trying to make.
Western concepts of statehood are not necessarily seen as legitimate by those outside the West. Whatever the "legality" of the British Empire handing over the Palestinian Mandate to the UN, most of the Arab world views this as foreigners messing around in their homeland. A bunch of white Europeans sitting in a conference hall somewhere drew a line on a map and decided that they would award that land to the Jews. This was recognized legally because the Brits technically "owned" that land. The question is whether that ownership was legitimate. To the West, it was, but the Arabs, unsurprisingly, took a more dim view of this, seeing as they had been inhabiting that land for thousands of years before whitey showed up with guns and decided that the land was now "theirs"
-------------------- It is impossible to convey the life-sensation of any given epoch of one's existence--that which makes its truth, its meaning--its subtle and penetrating essence. It is impossible. We live, as we dream--alone. It's legs to walk and thoughts to fly Eyes that laugh and lips that cry A restless tongue to classify, All born to grow and grown to die
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PMATL
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14413531 - 05/07/11 01:50 AM (13 years, 15 days ago) |
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GazzBut said: 2) European Jews decided to move their en masse for no good reason other than their book of Fairy tales told them to.
Basically what it all comes down to is one stupid book of fairy tales told a group of people to move into a land populated by another group whose separate stupid book of fairy tales tells them to kill the first group.
So....fuck religion
-------------------- It is impossible to convey the life-sensation of any given epoch of one's existence--that which makes its truth, its meaning--its subtle and penetrating essence. It is impossible. We live, as we dream--alone. It's legs to walk and thoughts to fly Eyes that laugh and lips that cry A restless tongue to classify, All born to grow and grown to die
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
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Loc: Americas
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14413636 - 05/07/11 02:40 AM (13 years, 15 days ago) |
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GazzBut said: John why are you struggling to understand what I am saying?
I've explained the problems I find with your post, and as you've not responded, I'll assume this is a disingenuous question. I note that you've not responded either to my suggestion that of the several ways you could interprete your "first one to reside in an area wins", all cut against your conclusion, which you've provided no explanation for, meerly asserting this calculus supports the view that Israel is/was unjust (it seems you must arbitrarily look back in history but only so far as convieniant, ignoring the arab conquests preceding whatever fault you find with the British mandate, in making your determination of who was there first. You fail to say what was wrong with the British mandate, yet suggest something was).
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You are welcome to pick apart what I have said like some ill equipped law student but I would prefer to hear your actual opinion on the matter.
I've asked you several times to stop insulting me. What is the problem here?
I don't have much of an opinion on the merits of teh question, since you ask. I don't know of any particularly persuasive argument against Israel, hence the question.
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Western concepts of statehood are not necessarily seen as legitimate by those outside the West. Whatever the "legality" of the British Empire handing over the Palestinian Mandate to the UN, most of the Arab world views this as foreigners messing around in their homeland. A bunch of white Europeans sitting in a conference hall somewhere drew a line on a map and decided that they would award that land to the Jews. This was recognized legally because the Brits technically "owned" that land. The question is whether that ownership was legitimate. To the West, it was, but the Arabs, unsurprisingly, took a more dim view of this, seeing as they had been inhabiting that land for thousands of years before whitey showed up with guns and decided that the land was now "theirs"
I'm aware there's disagreement, hence the question. The issue is not whether such disagreement exists amongst particular groups but whether there's any legitimacy to them on moral or legal grounds.
I take some exception to your description of the british mandate as ownership of the lands. People were free to own lands in Palestine during the mandate- the British were soverign, not owners. For the same reason I have trouble understanding the categorical objection to Israel amongst the arab/muslim folks who seem to just be bigots without any justification for their objections other than their desire to oppress people of particular classes dissimilar to themselves
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PMATL
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214]
#14427733 - 05/10/11 12:31 AM (13 years, 12 days ago) |
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johnm214 said:
I'm aware there's disagreement, hence the question. The issue is not whether such disagreement exists amongst particular groups but whether there's any legitimacy to them on moral or legal grounds.
I take some exception to your description of the british mandate as ownership of the lands. People were free to own lands in Palestine during the mandate- the British were soverign, not owners. For the same reason I have trouble understanding the categorical objection to Israel amongst the arab/muslim folks who seem to just be bigots without any justification for their objections other than their desire to oppress people of particular classes dissimilar to themselves
Well I agree with your position to an extent. It's pretty much a race war at this point. More so on the side of the Muslims than the Israelis. I say Muslims and not Palestinians because I know a few Palestinian Christian refugees in the US who had totally legitimate beef with Isreal - being threatened at checkpoints, having passports & money confiscated, etc., just because they looked Arabic.
However a good amount of the anti-Isreal sentiment in the Muslim world is just the product of the rampant anti-semitism that is instilled in them from a young age.
Scary shit. But since Hamas is opposed to American foreign policy a good portion of the left will always see them as noble crusaders against the evils of Western imperialism. They only encourage children to carry out suicide bombings targeting civilians because "those are the only weapons they have" or some other such moral-relatavist drivel
-------------------- It is impossible to convey the life-sensation of any given epoch of one's existence--that which makes its truth, its meaning--its subtle and penetrating essence. It is impossible. We live, as we dream--alone. It's legs to walk and thoughts to fly Eyes that laugh and lips that cry A restless tongue to classify, All born to grow and grown to die
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gzuf
٩(̾๏̮̮̃̾๏̃̾)۶



Registered: 07/13/09
Posts: 6,535
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: Shins]
#14427887 - 05/10/11 01:31 AM (13 years, 12 days ago) |
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Shins said: Honestly, I'm not sure 
My guess is it had something to do with rampant Usury, Jewish supremacism, inclusiveness, Christian persecution, as well as some perception of Jews being "evil."
I don't get it. Everyone hates the Jews.
DA JEWWWZZZ. GET DEEEM.

The Jews just get kicked around for thousands of years. People fuckin' killing them here, killing them there. Oh guess we'll drop a H-bomb on you in the form of olocaust. People are always just so pissed about the Jews. I don't get it, I mean, they are good at business I guess. Humus is pretty tasty, in my opinion. It's just weird. Then, they get a little fucking country in the middle of nowhere after their people were just cut down by like 6 million and then the Islamic folk get mad, war after war after war for what? Some piece of land smaller than New Jersey where both Jews and Muslims live in relative peace.
I don't know I just don't understand it. Islam and Judaism along with Christianity all have the same roots. But at some point it has to be evident that Israel is here to stay, maybe it's time to just deal with it? I know there is a significant Muslim population in Israel, but I don't see a lot of that in Syria or Iran. The Gaza Strip has been turned in to shit because the people are given guns and rocket launchers to attack Israel in the form of "aid" rather than food. Such a pointless situation.
-------------------- +1 Post ٩(̾๏̮̮̃̾๏̃̾)۶
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: gzuf]
#14428849 - 05/10/11 08:51 AM (13 years, 12 days ago) |
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Christianity went through a period where it could brook no dissent and tortured and killed apostates. That was a few hundred years ago. I think the Jews had a similar period (Bring me a hundred Philistine foreskins) but that was a few thousand years ago. Islam is doing it now. It is an insecure, immature religion that hasn't gotten past the "You must believe" stage. The Jews are not now a problem, the Christians are not now a problem,, the Muslims are, right now, a problem. By problem I mean raving, drooling, lunatic murderers. Not all of them, obviously, but a rather huge minority. Like in the hundreds of millions.
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PMATL
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14432373 - 05/10/11 10:32 PM (13 years, 11 days ago) |
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I wouldn't say hundreds of millions, but yeah. Islam is stuck in tha fucking Dark Ages.
-------------------- It is impossible to convey the life-sensation of any given epoch of one's existence--that which makes its truth, its meaning--its subtle and penetrating essence. It is impossible. We live, as we dream--alone. It's legs to walk and thoughts to fly Eyes that laugh and lips that cry A restless tongue to classify, All born to grow and grown to die
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communeart


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: PMATL]
#14436151 - 05/11/11 05:57 PM (13 years, 11 days ago) |
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I think there is a misunderstanding of islam when you compare it to our own religions whether christian or jewish. the real problem are their representative like Arafat ( which is no better an individual than Ben Gurion) who are argue in favor of terror suicide bombing as a way to cause psychological terror on the israeli population and thus lead to victory.
The real problem is that they are similar to christians in their attacks. Quotes from the Qu'ran such as kill them where you find them are easily misinterpreted according to one's whim to include genocide. While israel is hypocritical saying that the babies they kill are collateral damage, the muslims attack all jews as if they are non-believers and heretics. It is one of the reason why islamofascism is a good term to begin with , it is that nazi attack ruthlessly people they consider non-people, not inferior, but people who for example have been going back and forth in religious status, and thus become a strange brand of atheism, islamist despise such a person as somebody mix-matching their own religion in my opinion. just like nazi despise the mixed-race more than they despise true africans for example.
I sometime feel that John's reason for constantly opening thread about israel is that he is working for AIPAC and trying to figure out what are the arguments of his ennemies. but that's just my paranoid self .
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: PMATL]
#14443523 - 05/13/11 02:10 AM (13 years, 9 days ago) |
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communeart said: I think there is a misunderstanding of islam when you compare it to our own religions whether christian or jewish.
You seem to project your cultural views or understanding onto others. Christianity and Judaism are not "my religions", and I grew up knowing more about Islam than any of the former. None of that matters either way.
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real problem is that they are similar to christians in their attacks.
and this is based on what?
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Quotes from the Qu'ran such as kill them where you find them are easily misinterpreted according to one's whim to include genocide.
How is this a misinterpreation? Are you relying upon the limited class to which such commands apply?
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While israel is hypocritical saying that the babies they kill are collateral damage,
How so?
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I sometime feel that John's reason for constantly opening thread about israel is that he is working for AIPAC and trying to figure out what are the arguments of his ennemies. but that's just my paranoid self .
If so, it isn't working. I just get a bunch of hype and insults as to my person, without any clear claims. Those who have made clear claims have not defended them and appear to have rather signifigant problems (Gazzbut for example who has not explained his 'first class to live in an area wins soveirignty' rule and how that cuts against Israel- apparently considering only the twentieth century in his analysis of 'who was there first'.)
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PMATL said:
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johnm214 said:
I'm aware there's disagreement, hence the question. The issue is not whether such disagreement exists amongst particular groups but whether there's any legitimacy to them on moral or legal grounds.
I take some exception to your description of the british mandate as ownership of the lands. People were free to own lands in Palestine during the mandate- the British were soverign, not owners. For the same reason I have trouble understanding the categorical objection to Israel amongst the arab/muslim folks who seem to just be bigots without any justification for their objections other than their desire to oppress people of particular classes dissimilar to themselves
Well I agree with your position to an extent. It's pretty much a race war at this point. More so on the side of the Muslims than the Israelis. I say Muslims and not Palestinians because I know a few Palestinian Christian refugees in the US who had totally legitimate beef with Isreal - being threatened at checkpoints, having passports & money confiscated, etc., just because they looked Arabic.
However a good amount of the anti-Isreal sentiment in the Muslim world is just the product of the rampant anti-semitism that is instilled in them from a young age.
Yeah, the hate and open acceptance/advocacy of oppression is a problem. Politically, those opposing Israel would do better in international consideration if they weren't such open bigots.
Israel allows muslims to own property and worship. I don't see much suggesting the leading palestinian organizations vieing for governmental power would allow jews the saem privledge.
Whatever the merits of having a state for a specific ethnicity or religion, which seems a pretty stupid and poor idea to me, its hard for me to see much in the way of justified oppression against the non-jews in Israel other than some limited things and the prejudice/hatred that always exists when two distinct classes exist in close proximity with finite resources.
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Scary shit. But since Hamas is opposed to American foreign policy a good portion of the left will always see them as noble crusaders against the evils of Western imperialism.
Pretty much my view as well, lol. Seems silly yet predictable.
The whole 'US imperialism" stuff seems stupid though. Other than anti-capitalists, there seems to be no legitimacy to any of their gripes. At least the anti-capitalists are somewhat honest that they just don't like the concept of wealth in the first place nor a government relatively free that doesn't forbid its citizens from buying stuff with their wealth. How that buying of stuff by citezins in a country translates into imperialism by the country, however; seems never to be explained.
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GazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214]
#14443912 - 05/13/11 05:55 AM (13 years, 9 days ago) |
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(Gazzbut for example who has not explained his 'first class to live in an area wins soveirignty' rule and how that cuts against Israel- apparently considering only the twentieth century in his analysis of 'who was there first'.)
Whats to explain? Its my opinion that removing a resident population by means of force and coercion is wrong.
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214]
#14443918 - 05/13/11 06:00 AM (13 years, 9 days ago) |
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its hard for me to see much in the way of justified oppression against the non-jews in Israel other than some limited things and the prejudice/hatred that always exists when two distinct classes exist in close proximity with finite resources.
Even more interesting, the original land that formed Israel was a bunch of worthless desert where few people lived. The nice areas in the region, which were populated, were not used to form Israel (which is why the original borders of Israel are so convoluted). The lust for Israel's land didn't come about until the Israeli people (not just the Jewish people) managed to turn their small parcel of worthless desert into a thriving oasis.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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johnm214


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14443968 - 05/13/11 06:27 AM (13 years, 9 days ago) |
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GazzBut said:
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(Gazzbut for example who has not explained his 'first class to live in an area wins soveirignty' rule and how that cuts against Israel- apparently considering only the twentieth century in his analysis of 'who was there first'.)
Whats to explain? Its my opinion that removing a resident population by means of force and coercion is wrong.
Explain:
a) the conclusion that this calculus cuts against Israel. Particularly, since the arab conquests imposed Islam and new governemnt on the conquered people, and judaism (the religion and ethnicity) existed amongst the population, it seems unlikely that the "first in the area wins sovereignty" analysis you favor supports the view that Israel is bad/shouldn't have been formed. How exactly does the criteria you advance support your view?
b) How does the right of whomever was originally in the area to enact a government have any baring on the morality/legality of creating Israel, given that the former soverign transferred the land willingly (unless you dispute this, though you've not said so). Whatever the rights of the people at the dawn of civilization or whenever you wish to analyze the situation (though you've not said how this analysis is conducted and would ask you how- it seems unworkable and ad hoc), wouldn't the fact that the Ottomans Empire attacked the allies in an aggressive war mean the sovereignty was rightly the UK's to divest to whomever they wished (ignoring the merits of the mandate system)?
In any case, the assertion is challenged on the grounds that it is said to be persuasive and just, not on the grounds that it is or is not your opinion. That something is your opinion is besides the point- the merits are what I've inquired of.
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GazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214]
#14444031 - 05/13/11 07:00 AM (13 years, 9 days ago) |
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a) the conclusion that this calculus cuts against Israel.
If you cant grasp this then there is not much point us conversing really.
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Particularly, since the arab conquests imposed Islam and new governemnt on the conquered people, and judaism (the religion and ethnicity) existed amongst the population,
I have already stated that in my opinion just because a bunch of Europeans happen to read the same book of fairytales as a bunch of middle eastern natives from the dim and distant past does not give the Europeans any reason to claim that they have a right to move on a well established population through means of force and coercion.
Also just because some Arabs also imposed themselves on a native population in the dim and distant past by no means serves as some form of justification for the actions of the Europeans who decided to claim this land as their own. Two wrongs do not make a right.
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b) How does the right of whomever was originally in the area to enact a government have any baring on the morality/legality of creating Israel, given that the former soverign transferred the land willingly (unless you dispute this, though you've not said so).
Who are you referring to as the former sovereign?
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GazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: Seuss]
#14444034 - 05/13/11 07:04 AM (13 years, 9 days ago) |
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Even more interesting, the original land that formed Israel was a bunch of worthless desert where few people lived. The nice areas in the region, which were populated, were not used to form Israel (which is why the original borders of Israel are so convoluted). The lust for Israel's land didn't come about until the Israeli people (not just the Jewish people) managed to turn their small parcel of worthless desert into a thriving oasis.
Proven fact or convenient belief?
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Seuss
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut] 1
#14444776 - 05/13/11 10:39 AM (13 years, 9 days ago) |
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Your link has nothing at all to do with what I posted.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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GazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: Seuss]
#14454368 - 05/15/11 12:32 AM (13 years, 7 days ago) |
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I take it you didnt actually read the link then as it has everything to do with the unsubstantiated belief that you attempted to parade as a justification for the behaviour of the European Jews.
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johnm214


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14455291 - 05/15/11 08:40 AM (13 years, 7 days ago) |
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GazzBut said: I take it you didnt actually read the link then as it has everything to do with the unsubstantiated belief that you attempted to parade as a justification for the behaviour of the European Jews.
You have the burden to establish the relevance and justifiability of your claim and the source. So far you've simply proffered it as dispositive and when Seuss observes it is not relevant you repeat your claim. This is not helpful- you've not offered even an argument for the relevance.
Looking at the article, I don't see what the proportion of Jewish-farmed land versus Palestinian-farmed land in 1944-1945 has to do with whether the lands for which israel was granted soverignty were largely dessert lands with few residents and low worth- as Seuss alleges.
If there were no Jewish farmers in 44-45, it woudl seem by the analysis you champion this would mean even if Israel was founded on a baren rock a few meters square in area, that Israle got the best land, because Jews previously didn't cultivate much compared to Palestinians? This seems an absurd argument and the agricultural yield an arbitrary criteria, even if it didn't have logical problems.
Given you fail to even make an argument, its difficult to know what your point is, but it sure seems to have failed.
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GazzBut said:
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a) the conclusion that this calculus cuts against Israel.
If you cant grasp this then there is not much point us conversing really.
What does what I understand have to do with anything? The point is the argument, or lack thereof, for Israel's founding being immoral or unlawful, not my personal feelings and understanding. Stop making personal remarks and discuss the topic. If you don't wish to do this, then don't post in this thread.
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Particularly, since the arab conquests imposed Islam and new governemnt on the conquered people, and judaism (the religion and ethnicity) existed amongst the population,
I have already stated that in my opinion just because a bunch of Europeans happen to read the same book of fairytales as a bunch of middle eastern natives from the dim and distant past does not give the Europeans any reason to claim that they have a right to move on a well established population through means of force and coercion.
You've said this but since nobody has offered it as justification for the state of Israel and the topic is not the universe of possible unpersusive arguments for Israel but what argumetns there might be against Israel, it seems a waste of text.
I ask again, what justification do you have for asserting the calculus you offer leads to Israel being unlawfull or immoral?
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Also just because some Arabs also imposed themselves on a native population in the dim and distant past by no means serves as some form of justification for the actions of the Europeans who decided to claim this land as their own. Two wrongs do not make a right.
How is the state itself immoral because of the previous nationalities of its residents? You have said that the first occupants have the right to soveriegnty, and now seem to agree the arab conquests were wrong. How then is the establishment of Israel wrong if it allegedly neglects the views of the conquerors you claim to be in the wrong and to have no claim to soverignty? Who exactly is being disenfranchised here?
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b) How does the right of whomever was originally in the area to enact a government have any baring on the morality/legality of creating Israel, given that the former soverign transferred the land willingly (unless you dispute this, though you've not said so).
Who are you referring to as the former sovereign?
The united Kingdom. Please answer the question.
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GazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214]
#14455321 - 05/15/11 08:52 AM (13 years, 7 days ago) |
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You have the burden to establish the relevance and justifiability of your claim and the source.
Interesting that you didnt make the same point to Seuss when he made his completely unsubstantiated claim. Double standards John? I didnt actually claim that this link offered the truth anyway just that it gave a different side of the picture to the comment Seuss had made.
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Given you fail to even make an argument, its difficult to know what your point is, but it sure seems to have failed.
I was just pointing out that Seuss made a completely unsubstantiated comment and that 10 seconds in google was enough to turn up information that could indicate he was talking out of his back side. No fail there old boy.
as for the rest of your musings on the immorality of Israels actions you should remember that I do not believe in any objective morality so I can only give my subjective opinion on the matter, I have done so. I feel under no obligation to prove how I subjectively feel about this subject.
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The united Kingdom. Please answer the question.
To my mind the UK had no right to act as Sovereign in the first place or to play a deciding role in decisions as to who should or should not be allowed to live on that land.
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14455442 - 05/15/11 09:34 AM (13 years, 7 days ago) |
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Please explain to me how those borders are any less legitimate than the borders of Europe or anywhere else. They were redrawn in Europe at roughly the same time as they were redrawn in the middle east.
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GazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14455646 - 05/15/11 10:57 AM (13 years, 7 days ago) |
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The borders in Europe do not have any more legitimacy but they have become accepted over time and are no longer an issue. Im sure many people were pissed off at certain points by invasions and land grabs etc and they had every right to be. There seems to be a real strong sense of two wrongs do make a right with the people who support the European Jews land grab in this thread.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14455831 - 05/15/11 11:45 AM (13 years, 7 days ago) |
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The Basques disagree with you. And what of the Balkans? Those borders as drawn by the conquerors have already collapsed. You are arbitrarily applying a different standard and one that is based on a false history. European borders have very much been in dispute since the carve up following WW1
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johnm214


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14455849 - 05/15/11 11:49 AM (13 years, 7 days ago) |
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GazzBut said:
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You have the burden to establish the relevance and justifiability of your claim and the source.
Interesting that you didnt make the same point to Seuss when he made his completely unsubstantiated claim. Double standards John? I didnt actually claim that this link offered the truth anyway just that it gave a different side of the picture to the comment Seuss had made.
You fail to show how the evidence cited is at all relevant nor to address the counterargument.
As for Seuss's claim and my response to it, it is irrelevant. Stick to the topic- an alleged bias on my part has no relevance.
Since you asked: Seuss has always seemed to make well informed comments and been able to back up his claims with honest argumetns, facts. As I am not familiar with the subject, I have no opinion on whether Seuss's claim has good factual support, and didn't care to address it. Other people who offer claims as to the merits of the topic seem to seldom be able to back up what they say or offer a cogent argument. Often its these people whom I inquire of, as they seem to be unable to even provide an argument for their positions, and quickly reveal their position seems more politically, emotionally, motivated than anything else.
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Given you fail to even make an argument, its difficult to know what your point is, but it sure seems to have failed.
I was just pointing out that Seuss made a completely unsubstantiated comment and that 10 seconds in google was enough to turn up information that could indicate he was talking out of his back side. No fail there old boy.
That doesn't seem to be what you've said in the post
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The united Kingdom. Please answer the question.
To my mind the UK had no right to act as Sovereign in the first place or to play a deciding role in decisions as to who should or should not be allowed to live on that land.
You have not answere the question, which asked on what grounds do you contest the legitimacy of the UK's soverignty if you do in fact contest such. Your naked opinion is not helpful- the question is what moral or legal wrong, if any, is committed by Israel's establishment, continuance, and a blanket claim disfavoring the UK's claim is not helpful on either front.
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GazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214]
#14456119 - 05/15/11 01:01 PM (13 years, 7 days ago) |
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As for Seuss's claim and my response to it, it is irrelevant.
Not irrelevant to me. It nicely highlighted the way you only like to impose your rigorous debating requirements on those you disagree with. That speaks volumes.
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Your naked opinion is not helpful- the question is what moral or legal wrong, if any, is committed by Israel's establishment, continuance, and a blanket claim disfavoring the UK's claim is not helpful on either front.
oh, you think there is actually an objective truth of right and wrong with this issue that we can discover through discourse? I disagree.
In my personal morality I would say the actions of Israel are wrong. Im not saying that is an objective fact.
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14456140 - 05/15/11 01:04 PM (13 years, 7 days ago) |
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You are arbitrarily applying a different standard
Really? Or are you merely thinking you know what I think?
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one that is based on a false history.
What false history would that be?
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European borders have very much been in dispute since the carve up following WW1
True. But I dont see how that has any relevance to my opinion on Israel.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14456313 - 05/15/11 01:41 PM (13 years, 7 days ago) |
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GazzBut said:
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You are arbitrarily applying a different standard
Really? Or are you merely thinking you know what I think?
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one that is based on a false history.
What false history would that be?
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European borders have very much been in dispute since the carve up following WW1
True. But I dont see how that has any relevance to my opinion on Israel.
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GazzBut said: The borders in Europe do not have any more legitimacy but they have become accepted over time and are no longer an issue. Im sure many people were pissed off at certain points by invasions and land grabs etc and they had every right to be. There seems to be a real strong sense of two wrongs do make a right with the people who support the European Jews land grab in this thread.
European borders have been no less disputed over time than the Mideast borders.
What is the relevance to your discussion of Israel? That you aren't applying the same criticism to all of Europe and the rest of the world, which borders have pretty much been established the same way. Apparently you don't believe any borders are legitimate but restrict your criticism to only Israel. I wonder why.
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GazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14456763 - 05/15/11 03:03 PM (13 years, 7 days ago) |
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Zappa, this thread is about Israel. I dont condone the way European borders were drawn up either but this thread is about Israel not Europe.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14456883 - 05/15/11 03:20 PM (13 years, 7 days ago) |
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GazzBut said: Zappa, this thread is about Israel. I dont condone the way European borders were drawn up either but this thread is about Israel not Europe.
So no borders suit you. Absolutist idiocy.
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GazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14456953 - 05/15/11 03:30 PM (13 years, 7 days ago) |
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lol, I didnt say that did I?
Is this the best you have got as a defence for European Jews being allowed to kick out the natives in the promised land?
At the end of the day this happened within the near past when as a species we would feel we had evolved and grown more civillised. It wasnt the dim and distant past when people still thought the Earth was flat was it?
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14457120 - 05/15/11 03:57 PM (13 years, 7 days ago) |
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GazzBut said: lol, I didnt say that did I?
Actually, you did. If you thnk there are legit borders anywhere please chirp up.Quote:
Is this the best you have got as a defence for European Jews being allowed to kick out the natives in the promised land?
They didn't kick them out. They kicked themselves out.Quote:
At the end of the day this happened within the near past when as a species we would feel we had evolved and grown more civillised. It wasnt the dim and distant past when people still thought the Earth was flat was it?
The European borders were drawn roughly the same time.
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GazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14460290 - 05/16/11 01:23 AM (13 years, 6 days ago) |
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Actually, you did. If you thnk there are legit borders anywhere please chirp up.
I would say borders where there is no long any meaningful dispute have gained legitimacy through time but that does not mean I think the way those borders were originally drawn necessarily had legitimacy.
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They didn't kick them out. They kicked themselves out.
Source?
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The European borders were drawn roughly the same time.
Which borders are you talking about?
What I dont understand is that you support the Israelis attempting to redraw the map based on supposed historical precedent but were wholly opposed when Iraq attempted to do exactly the same in Kuwait, double standard much?
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14461260 - 05/16/11 09:46 AM (13 years, 6 days ago) |
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GazzBut said: lol, I didnt say that did I?
Is this the best you have got as a defence for European Jews being allowed to kick out the natives in the promised land?
What does it being the 'promised land' have to do with anything?
What do you base your claim that 'european jews' 'kicke[ed] out the natives' on, particularly? Can you cite some particular prominent event or provide any explanation of this claim? Since the topic is Israel, I presume you claim this to be morally attributable to Israel, yes?
Is this what people mean when they claim the land was 'stolen'? I've heard people say this kinda thing, but a big part of my puzzlement over this issue is the lack of any apparent justification. If this "stolen land" argument actually refers to something like this that actually occurred it would be pretty relevant, I'd think.
So, is there any basis to this?
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At the end of the day this happened within the near past when as a species we would feel we had evolved and grown more civillised. It wasnt the dim and distant past when people still thought the Earth was flat was it?
So is this why your "whoever is there first gets the land, makes the government" argument somehow doesn't apply to the original jewish (religious and ethnic) people the right to enact a government but paradoxically grants the newcomers, muslim conquerors, that right? Despite the muslims moving in and killing the original residents and seizing the land, they somehow get the sovereign rights due to their acts being long ago?
Hmm, can you explain again how this "whoever is there first gets the land and the govenrment" reasoning works? I don't recall any mention of all these exceptions the first time you said it- in fact: your argument seems to cut against your conclusion.
I take it then, that Israel need only ignore people like you for a while and then it suddenly becomes legitimate in your eyes once sufficient time has passed? How long is this time period? When will you agree Israel is legitimate?
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GazzBut said:
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As for Seuss's claim and my response to it, it is irrelevant.
Not irrelevant to me. It nicely highlighted the way you only like to impose your rigorous debating requirements on those you disagree with. That speaks volumes.
As you've failed to show how any of this is relevant, and once more simply claimed it is without showing how, I'll assume this is just another ad hominem argument. If there is anything relevant here, please indicate what it is.
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14461314 - 05/16/11 10:10 AM (13 years, 6 days ago) |
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GazzBut said:
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Actually, you did. If you thnk there are legit borders anywhere please chirp up.
I would say borders where there is no long any meaningful dispute have gained legitimacy through time but that does not mean I think the way those borders were originally drawn necessarily had legitimacy.
You don't think any borders had original legitimacy and the mere presence of a dispute eliminates even the legitimacy of tradition? Wonderfully absurd. Were that absurdist standard to be put into practice in the real universe every border would constantly be disputed.Quote:
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They didn't kick them out. They kicked themselves out.
Source?
Wiki. Try it.Quote:
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The European borders were drawn roughly the same time.
Which borders are you talking about?
All of them East of France, many of which have been redrawn twice since then. So much for your contention that they are stable with no disputes.Quote:
What I dont understand is that you support the Israelis attempting to redraw the map based on supposed historical precedent but were wholly opposed when Iraq attempted to do exactly the same in Kuwait, double standard much?
The Israelis redrew the map because they prevailed over their aggressive neighbors in a war of self defense. If their neighbors had not acted aggressively Israel never would have changed its borders. Even offered the land back the neighbors, Egypt and Jordan, wouldn't take it. I was not aware of any Kuwaiti attacks against Iraq. Are you arguing that you thought that just because Saddam said so Kuwait should be Iraqi territory? What of border disputes arising from claims made by non heads of state actors? Like the Basque Separatists? Do they have the authority to challenge your supposed legitimacy of tradition? What utter crap. You have completely pretzeled yourself.
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GazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14465935 - 05/17/11 01:18 AM (13 years, 5 days ago) |
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You don't think any borders had original legitimacy and the mere presence of a dispute eliminates even the legitimacy of tradition? Wonderfully absurd.
You seem to struggle understanding the simplest of sentences Zappa.
"that does not mean I think the way those borders were originally drawn necessarily had legitimacy."
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Wiki. Try it.
In other words you dont have a source.
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All of them East of France, many of which have been redrawn twice since then. So much for your contention that they are stable with no disputes.
Yes there have been border disputes in Europe in the 20th century. I must admit I was thinking more about Western Europe but even there we can still find disputes etc. Even so, what does this have to do with the European Jews taking over a foreign land?
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I was not aware of any Kuwaiti attacks against Iraq.
It is believed by some that the Kuwaitis had begun slant drilling into Iraqi oil fields. Whilst not a physical attack Im sure its something the US would be willing to fire a few missiles at civilians for if their own oil fields came under such attack. Also, the Iraqis considered that the Kuwaitis had deliberately raised their own oil production to prevent the Iraqi economy recovering from war. I dont know how true this is but Saddam stated this as a reason when captured in 2003 (cue predictable knee jerk dismissal)
Kuwait had also formerly been a part of Iraq before the Ottoman - British carve up of the middle east. Im not saying this condones Saddam's actions or gives him any right to do what he did.
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The Israelis redrew the map because they prevailed over their aggressive neighbors in a war of self defense.
The whole point is they were not Israelis they were European Jews. They only became Israelis after the West enabled them to redraw the map and depose the native population.
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Are you arguing that you thought that just because Saddam said so Kuwait should be Iraqi territory?
No! I have never said that. Im just pointing out that you choose to support some attempts at redrawing borders and condemn others based solely on your political beliefs. For instance, if you changed Iraq for Israel and Kuwait for say Syria you would have fully supported an Israeli invasion because those filthy Muslims were stealing Israeli oil and you know it. Similarly you support the European Jews basically invading a foreign land because it sits comfortably with your political position.
I do not condone the use of force for purely selfish gain in any situation.
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What of border disputes arising from claims made by non heads of state actors? Like the Basque Separatists? Do they have the authority to challenge your supposed legitimacy of tradition?
You misunderstand me. When I say that legitimacy can arise over time that is only possible if all parties basically decide to accept the borders as they are and get on with their lives. In the case of the Basque this is obviously not the case.
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What utter crap. You have completely pretzeled yourself.
I dont think so.
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GazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214]
#14465996 - 05/17/11 01:39 AM (13 years, 5 days ago) |
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Can you cite some particular prominent event or provide any explanation of this claim? Since the topic is Israel, I presume you claim this to be morally attributable to Israel, yes?
The 1948 Palestinian exodus would provide a fairly prominent event although obviously the whole process begun long before this.
Narkba
1948 Exodus
This sort of thing hasnt really ever stopped with Palestinian homes still being illegally bulldozed.
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So is this why your "whoever is there first gets the land, makes the government"
Thats not really my position but I dont support the use of force for selfish gain in any situation.
Can I assume that your position is along the lines of might is right and the powerful can therefore do as they wish against the less powerful? Or is it simply some advanced version of two wrongs can make a right?
If not can you please explain to me how you justify as acceptable the European Jews arriving en masse in a foreign land and deposing the native population?
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As you've failed to show how any of this is relevant, and once more simply claimed it is without showing how, I'll assume this is just another ad hominem argument. If there is anything relevant here, please indicate what it is.
1) Seuss made an unsubstantiated claim which you made not attempt to highlight or mention burden of proof.
2) I made no claim whatsoever. I posed a question and provided a link which gave an alternative position to the one made by Seuss that Israel was a barren land before the Jews settled it
3) You then jumped on me and said "You have the burden to establish the relevance and justifiability of your claim and the source." When in fact I had not made a claim in the first place Seuss had.
Re-read the thread and I think you will see I am correct.
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akira_akuma
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut] 1
#14466211 - 05/17/11 03:41 AM (13 years, 5 days ago) |
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source my balls.
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GazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: akira_akuma]
#14466243 - 05/17/11 04:11 AM (13 years, 5 days ago) |
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Thanks for that.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14468482 - 05/17/11 03:32 PM (13 years, 5 days ago) |
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The first paragraph from your link regarding the 1948 exodus:
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The 1948 Palestinian exodus (Arabic: الهجرة الفلسطينية, al-Hijra al-Filasṭīnīya), also known as the Nakba (Arabic: النكبة, an-Nakbah), meaning the "disaster", "catastrophe", or "cataclysm",[1] occurred when approximately 725,000 Palestinian Arabs left, fled or were expelled from their homes, during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War and the Civil War that preceded it.[2] The exact number of actual refugees is a matter of dispute, depending upon the source. [3] Although some authors, such as Ilan Pappé, describe this exodus as forced deportation or ethnic cleansing,[4][3] others see it from a different perspective. Mark Tessler, in his History of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, says, "The reasons for this mass exodus....were and to some extent remain the subject of fundamental disagreement between Arabs and Israelis." He uses the words of UN mediator Bernadotte, who said that the Palestinians became refugees "in response to 'the hazards and strategy of the armed conflict' swirling around them."[5]
I wouldn't be so polite as to say that the armed conflict was "swirling around them". They were part and parcel of it and took sides with the enemy. Abbas himself can't seem to get his story straight: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/05/was-mahmoud-abbass-family-expelled-from-palestine/238999/
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This does not seem to be true. On other occasions, Abbas has stated that his family left Safed out of a general fear that Jews would seek "retribution" against the Arabs of Safed for an earlier slaughter of Jews by Arabs. Here is his 2007 recounting of his family's self-exile from Safed:
Links at the link, as they say.
Israel's original insane borders were set by the UN, just like every other border in the middle east. Over some time they expanded slightly. Additionally we have this:
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Reaching a successful settlement of this dispute will require both sides, Arab and Israeli, to grapple with their mistakes. Mahmoud Abbas cannot bring himself to note that the Jews accepted the partition plan, while the Arabs rejected it, and went to war to extinguish the new Jewish state in the cradle, and then lost their offensive war. During this war, many Arabs were expelled from Palestine by Israeli forces; many others fled. This is not a unique historical event; most wars cause massive population dislocations. It is worth noting that some Jews, a smaller number, were also expelled from their towns and farms by Arab forces. Larger numbers of Jews -- 800,000 -- were subsequently expelled from Arab countries, where they and their ancestors had lived for hundreds, even thousands, of years. These Jews are not considered refugees today because they were taken in by Israel and given citizenship. The Arab refugees from Palestine were not treated nearly so well by their brethren.
This treatment of supposed Palestinian Arabs by their own brothers continued in the aftermath of the 1967 war where Jordan, Egypt and Syria lost territory. Those countries did not accept refugees. In fact, years later, Jordan and Egypt refused to take back their territory, reached agreements with Israel and accepted border establishments. By your own definition they are traditionally established as legitimate. State actors with authority and claims have reached local border agreements. Non-state thugs with no authority continue to dispute the borders because they are lunatic losers who can't accept defeat. They have no standing. The agents with standing, Jordan and Egypt, reached agreement regarding the territory and borders. By accepted convention those borders are established and have not changed for over 40 years. Eastern Europe cannot say the same thing.
Your babble about European Jew invaders is racist bullshit. Is your problem that they are too white to live there? Any nation has the right to determine its immigration policy. Why do you suppose Israel was even created if not to provide a haven for Jews from the scummy fucking Euro slime that eradicated so many of them? It wasn't just the Nazis. They had plenty of helpers in the nations they invaded and not all of them were coerced. Why any Jews would continue to live in those nations is a mystery to me.
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GazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14471375 - 05/18/11 01:40 AM (13 years, 4 days ago) |
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They were part and parcel of it and took sides with the enemy.
So all 700,000 refugees were actually members of an army? Your position is made very clear here also when you refer to the Palestinians as "the enemy". How can you really expect to take an objective view when you hold a preconceived notion as one party as being the enemy?
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Israel's original insane borders were set by the UN, just like every other border in the middle east. Over some time they expanded slightly.
What gives the UN the right to decide these borders in the first place? Your whole position simply boils down to might is right and stems from your perception of the Palestinians as an enemy. You seem to have no sense of how many innocent individuals have suffered as part of this process.
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Mahmoud Abbas cannot bring himself to note that the Jews accepted the partition plan, while the Arabs rejected it, and went to war to extinguish the new Jewish state in the cradle, and then lost their offensive war.
So a bunch of foreigners turn up on your doorstep and decide they are going to take over land that was previously not theirs and set up their own state in your backyard with the assistance of groups who have a history of treating you badly and you would just welcome them with open arms? As if! For what possible reason should the Arabs have accepted the partition plan in the first place? So they went to war and lost, that gives Israel legitimacy? Might is right...
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These Jews are not considered refugees today because they were taken in by Israel and given citizenship. The Arab refugees from Palestine were not treated nearly so well by their brethren.
Can you please expand upon what your point is here and what relevance it has to this discussion? I dont really see what it has to do with whether or not the European Jews should have been allowed to create a country in a foreign land.
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Your babble about European Jew invaders is racist bullshit.
I have just been called a racist? Really? I find that highly insulting. Luckily for you the mods seem to only take action against people they dont agree with.
Perhaps you would care to explain how this is racist? It seems like an accurate description to me. If they weren't Europeans where did the come from? Were they invited? If not it surely is not much of a stretch to describe it as an invasion.
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Is your problem that they are too white to live there?
And you accuse me of babbling? You seem so keen to put words in my mouth just so you can argue with yourself. Why not try sticking to the facts and what have I actually said instead?
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Any nation has the right to determine its immigration policy.
Apart from the Palestinians who had the right to self-determination denied them by the British. Can you explain why that is acceptable? Oh right of course, they are the enemy...
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Why do you suppose Israel was even created if not to provide a haven for Jews from the scummy fucking Euro slime that eradicated so many of them?
Abominable yes, I quite agree. Why you think that gives them the right to go and depose 700,000 people from their own homes and businesses and continue to do so in breach of international law to this very day is quite beyond me though.
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GazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14472004 - 05/18/11 07:29 AM (13 years, 4 days ago) |
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I wouldn't be so polite as to say that the armed conflict was "swirling around them". They were part and parcel of it and took sides with the enemy. Abbas himself can't seem to get his story straight: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/05/was-mahmoud-abbass-family-expelled-from-palestine/238999/
I would just add that this link is weak!
Abbas said in 2011:
"Sixty-three years ago, a 13-year-old Palestinian boy was forced to leave his home in the Galilean city of Safed and flee with his family to Syria. He took up shelter in a canvas tent provided to all the arriving refugees. Though he and his family wished for decades to return to their home and homeland, they were denied that most basic of human rights."
Abbas said in 2007:
"When Abbas was 13, "we left on foot at night to the Jordan River... Eventually we settled in Damascus... My father had money, and he spent his money methodically. After a year, when the money ran out, we began to work. "People were motivated to run away... They feared retribution from Zionist terrorist organizations - particularly from the Safed ones. Those of us from Safed especially feared that the Jews harbored old desires to avenge what happened during the 1929 uprising [Muslim pogroms instigated by the Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini, known later for his Nazi sympathies]. This was in the memory of our families and parents... They realized the balance of forces was shifting and therefore the whole town was abandoned on the basis of this rationale - saving our lives and our belongings."
Goldberg has manufactured an entire article out of the fact that in the first recounting Abbas uses the word forced and in the second he uses the word motivated. He could have used compelled, driven, caused, coerced etc and all would still make sense. They were forced to leave by the increasing power of the Zionist community in that area and the fears were not unfounded. 4 years later he uses a different word to describe the same thing, big deal.
All this proves is Goldberg is a shoddy journalist with an agenda.
Edited by GazzBut (05/18/11 07:29 AM)
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johnm214


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14472146 - 05/18/11 08:37 AM (13 years, 4 days ago) |
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GazzBut said:
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Can you cite some particular prominent event or provide any explanation of this claim? Since the topic is Israel, I presume you claim this to be morally attributable to Israel, yes?
The 1948 Palestinian exodus would provide a fairly prominent event although obviously the whole process begun long before this.
Narkba
1948 Exodus
This sort of thing hasnt really ever stopped with Palestinian homes still being illegally bulldozed.
Can you cite with particularity what you rely on to demonstrate the residents or property owners were made to leave? A quick review of the wikipage linked seems to suggest the exodus were refugees from the wars and conflicts as well as people heeding the calls of arab leaders and fearing jewish oppression/retaliation.
As such, I'm unsure what particularly you are claiming establishes your position.
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So is this why your "whoever is there first gets the land, makes the government"
Thats not really my position but I dont support the use of force for selfish gain in any situation.
What is your position then? Without knowing the criteria you use to determine the justification of Israel's existance/continuation, it is difficult to evaluate the merits of such. As zappa seems to be exploring, it seems quite possible that your view is based on ad hoc criteria created for convenience. Your recognition of the arab conquest as establishing legitimate rights for the muslims yet rejecting the alleged later conquest by the jews, that itself hasn't been established as having occurred at all rather than a simple conveyance of the land from the prior sovereign, is also troubling.
While you claim some objection to ethical analysis as a whole, essentially suggesting the results are arbitrary and that no truth exists, it is somewhat difficult to reconcile that with your view that "the use of force for selfish gain" is not supported. I don't see how you can even decide what is selfish without ethics, but whatever.
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Can I assume that your position is along the lines of might is right and the powerful can therefore do as they wish against the less powerful? Or is it simply some advanced version of two wrongs can make a right?
No, I don't accept either position.
My present view is that Israel obtained soverignty in what seemed to be a legal transaction from a bona fide owner, the UK, and hence is presumptively valid as a state. You've said you object to the UK's soverignty but haven't said clearly why.
I am not aware at present of any decent factual argument that the state of Israel should not have come into being legally or morally or that it was stolen or any of the other common claims.
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If not can you please explain to me how you justify as acceptable the European Jews arriving en masse in a foreign land and deposing the native population?
I have not justified as acceptable such a thing and therefore will not explain how I have done so as the premise is faulty. I'm not aware of the particulars or veracity of the premise, moreover, so I wouldn't even care to comment on the case in general untill I know just what is referred to and how its claimed attributable to Israel.
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As you've failed to show how any of this is relevant, and once more simply claimed it is without showing how, I'll assume this is just another ad hominem argument. If there is anything relevant here, please indicate what it is.
1) Seuss made an unsubstantiated claim which you made not attempt to highlight or mention burden of proof.
2) I made no claim whatsoever. I posed a question and provided a link which gave an alternative position to the one made by Seuss that Israel was a barren land before the Jews settled it
3) You then jumped on me and said "You have the burden to establish the relevance and justifiability of your claim and the source." When in fact I had not made a claim in the first place Seuss had.
Re-read the thread and I think you will see I am correct.
You claimed the link cited refuted the claim Seuss made and did not explain how. Moreover, the link seemed clearly not to refute Seuss's claims as explained previously, as it concerned pre-Israel agricultural production by ethnicity when no apparent nor proffered argument establishes this as relevant, let alone contradictory, to Seuss's argument >I take it you didnt actually read the link then as it has everything to do with the unsubstantiated belief that you attempted to parade as a justification for the behaviour of the European Jews.
You alleged the link was relevant and contradictory.
Later you alleged information reveals Seuss was incorrect
>Seuss made a completely unsubstantiated comment and that 10 seconds in google was enough to turn up information that could indicate he was talking out of his back side. No fail there old boy.
These were the claims not substantiated.
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GazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214]
#14472216 - 05/18/11 09:05 AM (13 years, 4 days ago) |
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Can you cite with particularity what you rely on to demonstrate the residents or property owners were made to leave? A quick review of the wikipage linked seems to suggest the exodus were refugees from the wars and conflicts as well as people heeding the calls of arab leaders and fearing jewish oppression/retaliation.
Maybe 700,000 people just decided to go on holiday at the same time and couldnt find their way home afterwards?
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What is your position then?
I believe I have amply stated my position in this thread.
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Your recognition of the arab conquest as establishing legitimate rights for the muslims yet rejecting the alleged later conquest by the jews, that itself hasn't been established as having occurred at all rather than a simple conveyance of the land from the prior sovereign, is also troubling.
Why is it troubling? I dont agree with the actions of the Arabs in the dim and distant past but I also dont agree that than can be used to excuse the same behaviour on the part of the Jews in the future. Im not really sure why you seem to be struggling to grasp this very simple concept.
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What is your position then? Without knowing the criteria you use to determine the justification of Israel's existance/continuation
Now that Israel has established itself I would support its continuance within pre 1967 borders because it would be impossible to go back any further without causing undue harm to many innocent Israelis. I object to Israels continued expansion into land that is not theirs and I object to the way they treat the Palestinians in general.
I see nothing that legitamises the creation of Israel in the first place. To my mind it was simply imperial powers playing games with peoples lives to serve their own selfish ends. The only thing that gave them the right to do this was superior force. I will never support actions based on greed and enabled by force.
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ou claimed the link cited refuted the claim Seuss made and did not explain how.
You want me to read the link for you? Sorry, read it yourself. If you disagree feel free to tell me why.
The real point is the way you ignored the fact that any burden of proof lay upon Seuss's original statement but couldnt wait to lay the burden on me.
Do you deny any burden of proof lies with Seuss when he says:
"Even more interesting, the original land that formed Israel was a bunch of worthless desert where few people lived. The nice areas in the region, which were populated, were not used to form Israel (which is why the original borders of Israel are so convoluted). The lust for Israel's land didn't come about until the Israeli people (not just the Jewish people) managed to turn their small parcel of worthless desert into a thriving oasis"
The link I provided asserts that the Palestinians played a major part in making the desert bloom before Israel came into existence. The source is the Jewish chronicle. They base their arguments on surveys made by the British Authorities. What more exactly would you require from me to satisfy this supposed burden of proof when the only claim I made was that the link COULD indicate Seuss was wrong, I didnt say it did indicate Seuss was wrong did I?
I think you should just concede this point John because you are completely wrong.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14473844 - 05/18/11 03:11 PM (13 years, 4 days ago) |
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Goldberg has an agenda but Abbas does not? He did his proper job as a journalist, which is to find conflicting statements by politicians and call them on it. As that and the other link provide, many if not most of the Palestinians who left left on their own. There are still millions of Palestinians living in Israel? How come they weren't kicked out?
You say the pre '67 borders are alright with you but have argued repeatedly that none of the borders are legitimate because somebody disputes them. Quite the argument of convenience. At any rate returning the borders to pre '67 puts the West Bank as part of Jordan. Jordan and Israel long ago reached agreement there. The Gaza Strip would go back to being Egypt. Egypt and Israel had long ago reached agreement on that and in fact your solution would mean taking it away from the lunatics who currently reside there Because Israel gave it to them. And now get constant rocket attacks on what is, in your mind, now an acceptable Israel border. So reverting to the 1967 borders does not give the Palestinians a state. It increases the land of Jordan, Egypt and Syria. No Pally state there. And why do you suddenly find those borders legitimate when they fail to rise to the ludicrous standard you previously espoused. By your criteria those borders are no more legit than the current ones. Even less so since Jordan and Egypt, the former owners, already agreed to cede the territory to Israel.
The Palestinians do not even deserve the level of treatment they get from Israel. They have repeatedly asserted a desire to eradicate the entire state. It is part of the Hamas charter. Then there are the repeated calls from Iran to destroy Israel.
If the Pallies stop fighting there will be no war. If the Israelis stop fighting there will be no Israel.
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GazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14473996 - 05/18/11 03:45 PM (13 years, 4 days ago) |
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You say the pre '67 borders are alright with you but have argued repeatedly that none of the borders are legitimate because somebody disputes them.
All land illegally stolen since 67 would have to be returned as an initial starting point but as you rightfully point out this would not provide a Palestinian state so further negotiations would need to take place
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Quite the argument of convenience.
Not really, just a concession to reality.
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And now get constant rocket attacks
Can you provide any evidence for this claim?
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The Palestinians do not even deserve the level of treatment they get from Israel.
Finally we agree on something. Nobody deserves the level of treatment those bastards dish out to the Palestinians.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14474275 - 05/18/11 04:50 PM (13 years, 4 days ago) |
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No. They never should have been given the Gaza Strip and every one of them who voted for a terror organization should be imprisoned.
If the Pallies stop fighting there will be no war. If the Israelis stop fighting there will be no Israel.
Do I really need to give you a fucking link about rocket attacks on Israel from Gaza? Please say, "yes". Because that will firmly cement for all time your status as an incredibly ignorant poster. You've done pretty well in that regard but that would be the clincher.
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GazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14476533 - 05/19/11 01:30 AM (13 years, 3 days ago) |
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No. They never should have been given the Gaza Strip and every one of them who voted for a terror organization should be imprisoned.
So where would you have the Palestinians live?
There are those who would use terror to achieve their aims on both sides of this equation but you are so blinded by hatred you cannot acknowledge this, I cant believe you dont see it though.
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If the Pallies stop fighting there will be no war. If the Israelis stop fighting there will be no Israel.
Absolute nonsense. It is a well known fact that far more Palestinians have been killed by the Israelis yet you still persist in the pathetic delusion that the Israelis are simply acting defensively. Acting defensively would not include bulldozing homes and expanding their territory in violation of international law.
This brings us to another point which highlights the ridiculous nature of your position, you will happily quote contravention of UN resolution as ample justification for imposing sanctions and invading Iraq but you do not care that Israel has broken more resolutions than practically any other nation on Earth.
List of broken resolutions
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Do I really need to give you a fucking link about rocket attacks on Israel from Gaza?
I think it would be a good habit for you to get into to actually check the information you post.
Obviously the fact that the Israelis continue to launch their own air strikes and attacks and as per usual continue to kill more Palestinians is irrelevant to you.
I dont support the Palestinians who fire rockets and I do not support the Israelis who do so either. It is obvious that the only solution to this problem lies in peaceful reconciliation and not continued violence from both sides. In my opinion, the notion that one side is entirely responsible for the current situation would indicate a mind devoid of any vestige of intelligence.
Just out of interest what do you make of the Neturei Karta? I think you should spend a good while reading what they have to say on the matter.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14476668 - 05/19/11 02:35 AM (13 years, 3 days ago) |
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GazzBut said:
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Can you cite with particularity what you rely on to demonstrate the residents or property owners were made to leave? A quick review of the wikipage linked seems to suggest the exodus were refugees from the wars and conflicts as well as people heeding the calls of arab leaders and fearing jewish oppression/retaliation.
Maybe 700,000 people just decided to go on holiday at the same time and couldnt find their way home afterwards?
What is the relevance of this question? Are you going to provide some justification for your claim, some citation demonstrating the exodus was attributable to Israel?
Why are you asking this question? Seems like yet another straw man argument: I never suggested the exodus was spotaneous and voluntary. This is quite a different matter from the questio of whether Israel is bad.
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What is your position then?
I believe I have amply stated my position in this thread.
Then cite where it has been stated. I can identify several positions you've claimed and then equivocated on.
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Your recognition of the arab conquest as establishing legitimate rights for the muslims yet rejecting the alleged later conquest by the jews, that itself hasn't been established as having occurred at all rather than a simple conveyance of the land from the prior sovereign, is also troubling.
Why is it troubling? I dont agree with the actions of the Arabs in the dim and distant past but I also dont agree that than can be used to excuse the same behaviour on the part of the Jews in the future. Im not really sure why you seem to be struggling to grasp this very simple concept.
Because you've not established this is what happened in the first place, and hence the uncertain premise is not saved by any presumed theory of statehood.
You yourself charecterize the behavior of the "Jews" as requiring 'excuse'. But isn't this the entire question? By your criteria it would seem the Jews would need no excuse- it was their land. By your premise establishing the Jews behavior as requiring some excuse you beg the question entiretly
Again, what is your justification for this apparently dispartate treatment and how do you judge who's in the right/wrong, et cet?
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What is your position then? Without knowing the criteria you use to determine the justification of Israel's existance/continuation
Now that Israel has established itself I would support its continuance within pre 1967 borders because it would be impossible to go back any further without causing undue harm to many innocent Israelis. I object to Israels continued expansion into land that is not theirs and I object to the way they treat the Palestinians in general.
Okay, can you explain the relevance here? How does what behavior you would accept and what borders you would accept answer the question of what your position is on the, as I asked: 'justification of Israel's existance/continuation'? I'm not asking what borders you would support or whatever, I'm asking whether Israel's existance is wrong or its continuation is wrong- these other issues are besides the point, only relevant to the extent they inform the prior consideration, something you've not alleged.
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I see nothing that legitamises the creation of Israel in the first place. To my mind it was simply imperial powers playing games with peoples lives to serve their own selfish ends. The only thing that gave them the right to do this was superior force. I will never support actions based on greed and enabled by force.
Your bare conclusions and naked statement of opinion is not what is asked for. I'm trying to see what makes Israel's formation or continuance wrong, morally or legally.
Moreover, you've not established that Israel's actions were 'based on greed and enabled by force', 'imperial powers playing games with peoples lives to... their own ends'.
I've suggested several ways inn which the soverignty is caimed justly and you've not disputed this clearly- UK's ceeding the land, Ottoman's conquering in just war, your proposed criteria of the 'jews beign their first', and the arab conquests you admit were wrong per your criteria.
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ou claimed the link cited refuted the claim Seuss made and did not explain how.
You want me to read the link for you? Sorry, read it yourself. If you disagree feel free to tell me why.
This is another straw man argument. I have not asked for this and you've not shown how I have. You have the burden of establishing the relevance of what you claim.
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Do you deny any burden of proof lies with Seuss when he says:
No
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The link I provided asserts that the Palestinians played a major part in making the desert bloom before Israel came into existence. The source is the Jewish chronicle. They base their arguments on surveys made by the British Authorities. What more exactly would you require from me to satisfy this supposed burden of proof when the only claim I made was that the link COULD indicate Seuss was wrong, I didnt say it did indicate Seuss was wrong did I?
Then your argument was irrelevant, as the question was not whether Seuss 'COULD' be wrong, but whether he was. Nobody denies seuss is fallible.
To equivocate in such a mater as to suggest that your suggestion was meerly that Seuss might possibly be in error is to render your replies completely superfluous- arguing an irrelevant, universallly agreed, point not at issue.
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I think you should just concede this point John because you are completely wrong.
What am i wrong about? Your assurance that I am wrong about some unstated point is not helpfule: it does not constitute a particular identifiable claim as to what I've said, and your conclusory assertions have no apparent relevance.
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GazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 4 months, 13 days
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214]
#14476981 - 05/19/11 05:31 AM (13 years, 3 days ago) |
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What is the relevance of this question? Are you going to provide some justification
for your claim, some citation demonstrating the exodus was attributable to
Israel?
It is blatantly obvious that one of the main factors which caused the exodus was the increase in Zionist influence and power along with Zionist military advances.
I have provided links which back this up.
Also you asked Quote:
If this "stolen land" argument actually refers to something like this that actually occurred it would be pretty relevant, I'd think.
Regardless of why the exodus took place since it happened the Palestinians have been denied the right of return so land and property that belonged to them has effectively been stolen from them.
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Because you've not established this is what happened in the first place, and hence the uncertain premise is not saved by any presumed theory of statehood.
I have not established what happened?
What presumed theory of statehood?
Seriously, cant you just communicate in a more understandable manner? I have a good command of the English language but I find your posts difficult to decipher half the time.
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You yourself characterize the behavior of the "Jews" as requiring 'excuse'.
But isn't this the entire question?
Yes, the behaviour of the Zionists does require excuse, as in my opinion their behaviour was reprehensible. Im getting really bored of having to restate my position to you.
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By your premise establishing the Jews behavior as requiring some excuse you beg the question entiretly
Once again I am struggling to understand your point. Please indulge me and try and rephrase it in simpler terms for me.
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Again, what is your justification for this apparently dispartate treatment and how do you judge who's in the right/wrong, et cet?
Disparate treatment of who?
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Okay, can you explain the relevance here? How does what behavior you would accept and what borders you would accept answer the question of what your position is on the, as I asked: 'justification of Israel's existance/continuation'?
I am explaining that I find no justification for Israels existence or more accurately creation but I do find justification for their continuation.
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Moreover, you've not established that Israel's actions were 'based on greed and enabled by force', 'imperial powers playing games with peoples lives to... their own ends'.
I've suggested several ways inn which the soverignty is caimed justly and you've not disputed this
You basically believe the the British Mandate of Palestine was just. I believe the mandate was not just as this rule was imposed on the Palestinian people and they had absolutely no say in the matter. I realise this was merely the latest in a long line of impositions of rule but I dont believe that just because the British won a war the league of nations had any real right to give them control over the Palestinian people. I dont see how this process can be described in any other way than Imperialistic. Control of the Palestinian people was ceded to the British as a spoil of war and I see no moral basis for this action.
The British mandate:
"conferred an international legal status upon the territories and people which had ceased to be under the sovereignty of the Ottoman Empire as part of a 'sacred trust of civilization'. Article 7 of the League of Nations Mandate required the establishment of a new, separate, Palestinian nationality for the inhabitants."
The original covenant is then seemingly ignored by the Balfour declaration of 1917:
"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."
The sentiments at the end seem to have been merely tacked on to satisfy good conscience without any real motivation to stick to them. Note this declaration was made in a letter to Baron Rothschild, a prominent member of that family of international bankers who would have surely held significant sway of the financial future of the British, especially after the ending of World War I. I feel this backs up my claims of the creation of Israel being "based on greed and enabled by force"
Ambiguously the Balfour declaration was followed in 1918 by the Anglo-French declaration:
"The goal envisaged by France and Great Britain in prosecuting in the East the War let loose by German ambition is the complete and final liberation of the peoples who have for so long been oppressed by the Turks, and the setting up of national governments and administrations deriving their authority from the free exercise of the initiative and choice of the indigenous populations. In pursuit of those intentions, France and Great Britain agree to further and assist in the establishment of indigenous Governments and administrations in Syria and Mesopotamia which have already been liberated by the Allies, as well as in those territories which they are engaged in securing and recognising these as soon as they are actually established. Far from wishing to impose on the populations of those regions any particular institutions they are only concerned to ensure by their support and by adequate assistance the regular working of Governments and administrations freely chosen by the populations themselves; to secure impartial and equal justice for all; to facilitate the economic development of the country by promoting and encouraging local initiative; to foster the spread of education; and to put an end to the dissensions which Turkish policy has for so long exploited. Such is the task which the two Allied Powers wish to undertake in the liberated territories."
The ambiguity between the Balfour declaration and the Anglo-French declaration was noted by Balfour himself in these revealing comments:
"The contradiction between the letters of the Covenant [of the League of Nations] and the policy of the Allies is even more flagrant in the case of the ‘independent nation’ of Palestine than in that of the ‘independent nation‘ of Syria. For in Palestine we do not propose to even go through the form of consulting the wishes of the present inhabitants of the country though the American [King-Crane] Commission is going through the form of asking what they are.
The Four Great Powers [Britain, France, Italy and the United States] are committed to Zionism. And Zionism, be it right or wrong, good or bad, is rooted in age-long traditions, in present needs, and future hopes, of far profounder import than the desires and prejudices of the 700,000 Arabs who now inhabit that ancient land. In my opinion that is right. What I have never been able to understand is how it can be harmonized with the [Anglo-French] declaration, the Covenant, or the instruction to the [King-Crane] Commission of Enquiry."
Balfour clearly states that Allied policy was in flagrant contradiction of the covenant of the league of nations. In other words, international law was flaunted to press on with supporting the Zionists in their goal. It also seems clear that despite any claims to the otherwise Palestinian self determination was never going to be considered as a realistic aim.
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Do you deny any burden of proof lies with Seuss when he says:
No
So if you do not deny any burden of proof lies on Seuss why did you fail to pick him up on this?
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Then your argument was irrelevant, as the question was not whether Seuss 'COULD' be wrong, but whether he was. Nobody denies seuss is fallible.
What argument are you talking about? I merely posed a question as part of the ongoing discussion. Please provide the exact quote from me where I made an argument regarding this matter. In my own way I was pointing out that Seuss's bare conclusions and naked statements were not helpful and I feel you are simply being disingenuous by not acknowledging this, especially as this is one of your favourite lines to trot out.
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What am i wrong about? Your assurance that I am wrong about some unstated point is not helpfule: it does not constitute a particular identifiable claim as to what I've said, and your conclusory assertions have no apparent relevance.
I refer you to my previous post where I clearly explain no burden of proof lies on me because I made no claim simply posed a question and presented some information. You failed to call out one of your cronies on whom the burden of proof fell simply because you agree with what he had to say and then erroneously tried to apply burden of proof to a question and a link I posted.
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14477196 - 05/19/11 07:04 AM (13 years, 3 days ago) |
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GazzBut said:
Quote:
What is the relevance of this question? Are you going to provide some justification
for your claim, some citation demonstrating the exodus was attributable to
Israel?
It is blatantly obvious that one of the main factors which caused the exodus was the increase in Zionist influence and power along with Zionist military advances.
I have provided links which back this up.
k...
And what does this have to do with anything? You keep making these claims that don't seem to have anything to do with the question at hand. What does it matter whether they left due to 'increase in Zionist influence and power along with Zionist military advances"?
How do you justify your claim that you've provided 'links which back this up'? I've asked for some specific citation to whatever your relying upon and you've not replied.
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If this "stolen land" argument actually refers to something like this that actually occurred it would be pretty relevant, I'd think.
Quote:
Regardless of why the exodus took place since it happened the Palestinians have been denied the right of return so land and property that belonged to them has effectively been stolen from them.
Okay, and how is that relevant? Do Palestinians who used to live in an area which comprises Israel at present have some right to live there at an arbitrary date?
Again, I don't know what the point of all this is.
Quote:
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Because you've not established this is what happened in the first place, and hence the uncertain premise is not saved by any presumed theory of statehood.
I have not established what happened?
What presumed theory of statehood?
Yes, as I said: you have not established this is what happened.
The presumed theory of statehood referred to is any presumed theory of statehood, as stated.
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Seriously, cant you just communicate in a more understandable manner? I have a good command of the English language but I find your posts difficult to decipher half the time.
This appears to just be more personal bullshit. If there's anything constructive here than please identify it. I see no particular request to be satisfied if I were inclined to do so.
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You yourself characterize the behavior of the "Jews" as requiring 'excuse'.
But isn't this the entire question?
Yes, the behaviour of the Zionists does require excuse, as in my opinion their behaviour was reprehensible. Im getting really bored of having to restate my position to you.
You have not established that you to repeat your position, and I'm not sure why you have.
The justifiability of your position is what is asked. You repeating the same baseless claim is not helpful. back it up or withdraw it.
I note that you have failed to answer the question posed and have not otherwise replied as to explain how you're not simply begging the question here.
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By your premise establishing the Jews behavior as requiring some excuse you beg the question entiretly
Once again I am struggling to understand your point. Please indulge me and try and rephrase it in simpler terms for me.
I don't understand what you are asking for here unless you don't understand the vocabulary/terms of art, in which case you should familiarize yourself with them and then ask more particular questions as to what you don't understand.
Your question presumes as part of the given facts that the behavior of the Jews requires excusing. As these jews are alleged to have created Israel and acted for Israel, you're premise begs the question.
As such, its fallacious as applied to this matter: you've assumed the answer rather than demonstrating it.
Quote:
Quote:
Again, what is your justification for this apparently dispartate treatment and how do you judge who's in the right/wrong, et cet?
Disparate treatment of who?
Dispartate treatment of the two cases: the Arab conquest and the formation of Israel. You allege the Israelis or those who'd become such were not sovereign due to coming to the area- that the sovereign was the original people. You don't, however, apply this same calculus to the case of the arab, Islamic, conquest, as you apparently regard them as the sovereign in the later case at the time of the formation of Israel.
Basically: you claim the first in the area gets sovereignty but claim that gives sovereignty to the muslims despite being newcomers and arriving through conquest.
Quote:
Quote:
Okay, can you explain the relevance here? How does what behavior you would accept and what borders you would accept answer the question of what your position is on the, as I asked: 'justification of Israel's existance/continuation'?
I am explaining that I find no justification for Israels existence or more accurately creation but I do find justification for their continuation.
Yes, I understand this. I was not asking what your position is, I'm asking what relevance it has. It doesn't seem to matter what you think as that is not the question.
Quote:
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Moreover, you've not established that Israel's actions were 'based on greed and enabled by force', 'imperial powers playing games with peoples lives to... their own ends'.
I've suggested several ways inn which the soverignty is caimed justly and you've not disputed this
You basically believe the the British Mandate of Palestine was just.
What is the relevance what I believe? It doesn't matter: the question is whether Israel is wrong.
Quote:
I believe the mandate was not just as this rule was imposed on the Palestinian people and they had absolutely no say in the matter.
You've not established this as true. Whow was the sovereign you recognize at this time? I presume it is not the Ottomans as I would imagine you must reject this to not recognize the transfer to the UK, but you've not shown who you do recognize. Without an alternative, it is difficult to see how the transfer was unjust or illegal, and therefore the land not he UK's to create the new state.
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I realise this was merely the latest in a long line of impositions of rule but I dont believe that just because the British won a war the league of nations had any real right to give them control over the Palestinian people.
So what? That wasn't what was alleged. They got that land because they defeated the sovereign in a lawful war and therefore became sovereign. They recieved that power from the Ottomans, not from the league of nations.
Quote:
I dont see how this process can be described in any other way than Imperialistic. Control of the Palestinian people was ceded to the British as a spoil of war and I see no moral basis for this action.
I disagree and you've not shown this to be true. The sovereignty was granted over the land, not the people. They were free to leave if they didn't like it and the UK would have no power over them.
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The original covenant is then seemingly ignored by the Balfour declaration of 1917:
What is the point here and how do you justify your conclusion?
Quote:
Note this declaration was made in a letter to Baron Rothschild, a prominent member of that family of international bankers who would have surely held significant sway of the financial future of the British, especially after the ending of World War I. I feel this backs up my claims of the creation of Israel being "based on greed and enabled by force"
What does the presumed sway of Rothschild have to do with anything? You just declare it but do not show how your presumption that Rothschild would have had sway means Israel was created based on greed. It seems pretty inconsistant that Israel was created as an independant state if the purpose was for greed.
How exactly has the UK realized any profit or even endeavored to gain such via the creation of Israel?
Quote:
Quote:
Do you deny any burden of proof lies with Seuss when he says:
No
So if you do not deny any burden of proof lies on Seuss why did you fail to pick him up on this?
Because i didn't care enough whether it was true or not to ask him. He didn't offer an opinion in that post on the merits of the question but rather commented on one of the arguments against Israel that he found unpersuasive. As such, it didn't address the point and I didn't care.
Quote:
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Then your argument was irrelevant, as the question was not whether Seuss 'COULD' be wrong, but whether he was. Nobody denies seuss is fallible.
What argument are you talking about?
That I am biased because I didn't ask Seuss to justify his claim or that this demonstrates bias, or whatever you argued at the time.
Quote:
You failed to call out one of your cronies
lol
I'm not going to reply to the remainder which suggests you know what I feel as to the truth of falsity of Seuss's claim. You've not shown how you could or do know such, and the whole thing seems premised upon a contrived foundation.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214]
#14477220 - 05/19/11 07:12 AM (13 years, 3 days ago) |
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At this point I'll ask:
Again, does anyone have any clear reason for how the creation of Israel was wrong or its continuance is- legally or morally?
So far we seem to have a lot of irrelevant appeals and other bullshit, but little in the way of relevant argument.
The two arguments against Israel that seem relevant: that they threw out the natives and had no legitimate sovereignty, both seem unsupported (the later of which claiming the original people in a place have sovereignty seems to support the Israelis- though its claimed to support the arab muslims for some reason).
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GazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 4 months, 13 days
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214]
#14477278 - 05/19/11 07:34 AM (13 years, 3 days ago) |
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At this point I will ask:
Does anyone have any clear reason for how the creation of Israel was right or its continuance is- legally or morally?
Do you choose not to comment on the fact that the British acted in contradiction of the original League of nations covenant? This points to the course taken from 1917 up until the creation of Israel as having started from an illegal standpoint.
Or that as Balfour said, their actual intentions of how to deal with the Palestinians were completely different to the ones publicly stated. - morally wrong.
Quote:
the later of which claiming the original people in a place have sovereignty seems to support the Israelis- though its claimed to support the arab muslims for some reason
Can you explain how you arrive at this conclusion? I cannot see any logic to it whatsoever.
-------------------- Always Smi2le
Edited by GazzBut (05/19/11 12:16 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14477886 - 05/19/11 10:43 AM (13 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
GazzBut said: At this point I will ask:
Does anyone have any clear reason for how the creation of Israel was right or its continuance is- legally or morally?
Right of conquest. Just like every other nation.Quote:
Do you choose not to comment on the fact that the British acted in contradiction of the original League of nations covenant? This points to the course taken from 1917 up until the creation of Israel as having started from an illegal standpoint.
The League of Nations was moot. It was disbanded and replaced.Quote:
Or that as Balfour said, their actual intentions of how to deal with the Palestinians were completely different to the ones publicly stated. - morally wrong.
Balfour is no authority I accept.
The Palestinians reject any Israeli presence. Fuck them.
--------------------
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GazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 4 months, 13 days
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14478347 - 05/19/11 12:23 PM (13 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Right of conquest. Just like every other nation.
As I have said all along your argument boils down to might is right.
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The League of Nations was moot. It was disbanded and replaced.
At the time they were the arbiters of international law. John was interested in the legal basis for the creation of Israel, I have shown that the British acted in contravention of the mandate they agreed with the League, actions which lead to the creation of Israel.
Quote:
Balfour is no authority I accept.
The Palestinians reject any Israeli presence. Fuck them.
So as I have already pointed out you are only interested in quoting international laws and agreements etc when they suit your agenda. How convenient.
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14478958 - 05/19/11 02:27 PM (13 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
GazzBut said:
Quote:
Right of conquest. Just like every other nation.
As I have said all along your argument boils down to might is right.
Right, wrong, whatever, it is what it is. Your argument is...............what? That Gazzbutt decides what are legitimate borders? As is abundantly clear you only have a problem with the borders of Israel. Why do you persistently ignore the fact that other actors, namely Jordan and Egypt, agreed to cede territory. Do you dispute their borders as well? If so I sure as shit haven't seen it.Quote:
Quote:
The League of Nations was moot. It was disbanded and replaced.
At the time they were the arbiters of international law. John was interested in the legal basis for the creation of Israel, I have shown that the British acted in contravention of the mandate they agreed with the League, actions which lead to the creation of Israel.
The League of Nations was disbanded and superceded by the United Nations. Nothing the League of Nations did that was later changed by the United Nations has any force, whether Gazzbutt likes it or not. Further there are other borders that had been later agreed upon by Jordan and Egypt.Quote:
Quote:
Balfour is no authority I accept.
The Palestinians reject any Israeli presence. Fuck them.
So as I have already pointed out you are only interested in quoting international laws and agreements etc when they suit your agenda. How convenient.
Israel was created by the United Nations. The Balfour declaration was a statement of policy, not law, in 1917, long before there even was a United nations. The actual creation of the state of Israel did not come until much later when the League of Nations was disbanded and replaced. The Balfour declaration was superceded by later events. Do you think we should still count Negroes as 3/5ths of a person in the United States? Also a policy that has been superceded.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14479062 - 05/19/11 02:49 PM (13 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
GazzBut said: At this point I will ask:
Does anyone have any clear reason for how the creation of Israel was right or its continuance is- legally or morally?
I don't, though their seems to be decent arguments for its permissability and the major acts' of relevance complying with international law. I'm not aware of any legitimate argument countering such. The Ottomans were sovereign over palestine by pretty much all accounts. They initiated an aggressive, illegal, war and lost. Thereafter the UK took the land, one of the victors, persuant to the mandate system. (I don't really agree with the mandate system's overall legality but I don't know of any relevance here to Israel- I just think the value of lands should have been counted for purpose of reperations under the surrender treaties).
The UK then had enough of the bullshit that still is going on to this day (plus the political pressure for creation of a Jewish state) and got rid of the territory voluntarily. Therefore, Israel was created legally as they obtained sovereignty from the previous sovereign and have thereafter excercised such over the lands they claim.
Quote:
Do you choose not to comment on the fact that the British acted in contradiction of the original League of nations covenant? This points to the course taken from 1917 up until the creation of Israel as having started from an illegal standpoint.
Well, I didn't comment on it previously, but I don't really understand your claim. What exactly did they do in violation of the League of Nations' era law and how does that affect matters? Haven't your authorities been various letters and policy statements issued by the UK? I don't see how any of those things creates any rights of contract or otherwise and therefore any change from said policy would seem to require no notice or compensation to anyone who relied thereon. Basically: its there land, they can say whatever they want unless they breach contract, and I'm aware of nothing suggesting they have. What exactly is the argument and facts here?
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Or that as Balfour said, their actual intentions of how to deal with the Palestinians were completely different to the ones publicly stated. - morally wrong.
As alleged, this is wrong for the UK, but does this affect the status of Israel? I don't really see it and I question the relevance of the various declerations anyways, given the factors previously discussed: they created no rights so a change of policy would not deprive anyone of any property or considerations rightly held. Its the same thing as Obama lieing about crap constantly- its his prerogative.
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the later of which claiming the original people in a place have sovereignty seems to support the Israelis- though its claimed to support the arab muslims for some reason
Can you explain how you arrive at this conclusion? I cannot see any logic to it whatsoever.
The inhabitants of the land prior to the arab conquests included Jews (ethnically and religiously) and such existed before the muslim conquests. Thereafter the muslims conquered the land and established a government- a government which would not be legitimate by my understanding of your claim. As such, the Ottoman Empire never had sovereignty over Palestine and the Israeli state couldn't have violated such.
This is based on my understanding of your explanation for the fault you find in Israel: that it was a new state created in allready populated lands that had signifigant immigrant composition.
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GazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 4 months, 13 days
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214]
#14479213 - 05/19/11 03:21 PM (13 years, 3 days ago) |
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We are going round in circles gents. I think we all know where we stand on the issue, have a pleasant evening!
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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communeart


Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 1,021
Loc:
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14484857 - 05/20/11 02:59 PM (13 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Therefore, Israel was created legally as they obtained sovereignty from the previous sovereign and have thereafter excercised such over the lands they claim.
This ignore the will of the palestinians themselves to create their own country if they wish it so. The populations should be respected, i really care little about the technicalities of palestine never existing as an independant state. to create a country like the zionist did and priviledge one part of the population is colonialism and genocide, cultural or whatnot.
Israel, now and before, does not care about promoting palestinian culture like Canada does for example with french canadians, and even if we suffer from colonialism and there are so many example of it such as the biased media, our situation is not comparable to the suffering of the palestinians, yet we still have 40% of our people who would vote yes to a referendum for sovereignty, i have no doubt that the palestinians would vote around 90% in favor of a non-jewish state in israel. Arafat was arguing for a one state solution, not to ethnically cleanse the jews out of israel, and it was refused
Because the zionist want their own state in order to prevent future holocaust, there is no other reason really. Even if a second holocaust is hard to imagine for most of us living in multicultural countries which have accepted immigration as a fact of life, the population in israel is constantly kept in terror that any arabs would shoot a nuclear weapon at israel if they had the chance to. The jewish population outside of israel often is pressured to give money for israel's defense, again the holocaust is used to stimulate funding. this is the reality of politics, the holocaust is a very traumatic event for all jews, there is even a religious day devoted to it. because unlike our shitty catholic institutions who remain old,rotten and unable to adapt to modernity. The jewish religion seems to add stuff every once in awhile, and it keeps the whole thing alive in my opinion.
A one state solution where israel and palestinians are living side by side in harmony would not be as effective to fight an anti-semitic government around the world, israel has nuclear weapons . it could very well, deliver the equivalent of an holocaust to a country that would be systematically discriminating and slaughtering jews during a conflict like in world war 2. The important part is that it has the power to do so. the jews want that power i believe. I feel that they are sick of listening to their elders waiting for the messiah to come and go back to israel. This is key, because those people are then, not following their religion, and can as such, be called infidels, by the radical christians or muslims.
It's very sad to see messianists groups in canada and the united states supporting israel becuase they believe it will bring them the new messiah faster.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: communeart]
#14484928 - 05/20/11 03:14 PM (13 years, 2 days ago) |
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I can assure you that that is not why I support Israel. It will all be moot after tomorrow, anyway.
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14486713 - 05/20/11 09:17 PM (13 years, 1 day ago) |
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why after tomorrow?
what did i miss?
oh yea, nevermind, christians.
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GI_Luvmoney
Vote Republican!


Registered: 05/10/09
Posts: 939
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: akira_akuma]
#14494877 - 05/22/11 04:39 PM (13 years, 2 hours ago) |
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I support anyone and everyone that opposes Islam.
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communeart


Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 1,021
Loc:
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GI_Luvmoney]
#14498316 - 05/23/11 10:19 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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you supported everyone and anyone who opposed communism. now it's islam. it used to be the nazi . how can you deny being fascistic or an american ultranationalist. at least i am honest about my anti-americanism, i say it outloud that my people will only feel alive,happy,culturally vibrant the day it spits on america as a symbolic gesture of freedom from foreign capital.
How is islam preventing america from being alive,happy,culturally vibrant? if anything america still shines with their culture around the world, and you want more power as always.
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,416
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: communeart]
#14498445 - 05/23/11 10:49 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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the un helped create israel, not just america. i think their tactics (israel's) can be heavy handed at times, but i can also understand that they are surrounded by people who are completely hostile towards them and have to protect themselves. ultimately the only way for things to get better is for palestine to handle up on its shit and get rid of the element that is causing israel to react in the way it does.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: millzy]
#14498492 - 05/23/11 11:02 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
millzy said: the un helped create israel, not just america. i think their tactics (israel's) can be heavy handed at times, but i can also understand that they are surrounded by people who are completely hostile towards them and have to protect themselves. ultimately the only way for things to get better is for palestine to handle up on its shit and get rid of the element that is causing israel to react in the way it does.
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communeart


Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 1,021
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14498501 - 05/23/11 11:06 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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The UN is also condemning israel all the fucking time. the UN is also condemning cuba's embargo. what does the united states do? it veto every fucking thing. Now it's time someone in america get it why i want ron paul as their president. he understands politics, and politics is about not setting precedents, it's about thinking before you do something because the consequences are going to be there for the next 50 years whatever you do. just like killing bin laden will only stimulates terrorism, but no problem with that since it's nothing but trying to stop russia and china from taking africa and the middle-east. since stability in that region means a true free market where china and russia will truly compete with america instead of having favorable price due to imperialism.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: communeart]
#14498518 - 05/23/11 11:10 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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communeart said: The UN is also condemning israel all the fucking time. the UN is also condemning cuba's embargo. what does the united states do? it veto every fucking thing. Now it's time someone in america get it why i want ron paul as their president. he understands politics, and politics is about not setting precedents, it's about thinking before you do something because the consequences are going to be there for the next 50 years whatever you do. just like killing bin laden will only stimulates terrorism, but no problem with that since it's nothing but trying to stop russia and china from taking africa and the middle-east. since stability in that region means a true free market where china and russia will truly compete with america instead of having favorable price due to imperialism.
The UN is a feckless agglomeration of aggrieved failed states. How many Muslim nations are there, each with one vote? 50? They wanted to put Libya as head of the human rights council. Cuba? The whole fucking world trades with them except us. Tough shit.
Killing ObL stimulates terrorism? You do realize that, of those three nations you mentioned, the least imperialist, by far, is the US.
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communeart


Registered: 12/04/06
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod] 1
#14498534 - 05/23/11 11:16 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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The UN, as a feckless agglomeration of aggrieved failed states. Gave the land to israel right? the UN is only good when you like it.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Posts: 81,741
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: communeart]
#14498573 - 05/23/11 11:25 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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communeart said: The UN, as a feckless agglomeration of aggrieved failed states. Gave the land to israel right? the UN is only good when you like it.
I don't think it was all that great back then either. They gave Israel a fucking mess and the Arabs all the resources and almost all the land. Pay close attention. THEY GAVE THE ARABS MUCH MORE THAN THEY GAVE ISRAEL!
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communeart


Registered: 12/04/06
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14498870 - 05/23/11 12:39 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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they gave israel 70% of the land of palestine.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: communeart]
#14499147 - 05/23/11 01:43 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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communeart said: they gave israel 70% of the land of palestine.
So what? What does that have to do with anything?
If you have some argument making Israel bad or illegal due to this, let's hear it.
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communeart


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214]
#14499299 - 05/23/11 02:13 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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I was replying to Zappa saying they gave everything to the arabs, while in reality they gave 70% of the land to the jews. the rational was that jews will immigrate soon. it was refused by the arabs and there was no other negociation. i am not sure but i think jerusalem was completly jewish under that plan, correct me if i am wrong.
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communeart


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: communeart]
#14499345 - 05/23/11 02:21 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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By the way, i don't get it. how can anyone claim that america is not imperialist. i thought i had a bad memory but how can you claim that 600 billion $$$ per year is a small military budget and they are not arming whoever the fuck they want plus invading other countries as it feels like. there's a war every 10 year and less with america is involved in all of them. name me a war in which america did not at least talkshit the countries into submission or rebellion.
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,416
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214]
#14499354 - 05/23/11 02:22 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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nobody benefits from instability in that region. i also don't see how turning our back on a situation we helped create could possibly be in our best interests either.
and like i said, i also find it difficult to sympathize with a government who seems to only want death and destruction and obstinately refuses israel's right to even exist.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: communeart]
#14499502 - 05/23/11 02:58 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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communeart said: By the way, i don't get it. how can anyone claim that america is not imperialist. i thought i had a bad memory but how can you claim that 600 billion $$$ per year is a small military budget
Gee, I don't remember claiming that. Why are you criticizing this position? What is the relevance?
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and they are not arming whoever the fuck they want plus invading other countries as it feels like.
Hmm, I don't remember claiming this one either. Why are you criticiaing this position? What is the relevance?
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there's a war every 10 year and less with america is involved in all of them. name me a war in which america did not at least talkshit the countries into submission or rebellion.
What is the relevance here?
You seem to argue against positions you yourself constructed, but without any explanation why your doing so. Is this one of those imperialist threads where at the end we find out that the person arguing country a is imperialist was using some secret definition?
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communeart


Registered: 12/04/06
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214]
#14499780 - 05/23/11 03:57 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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I asked for your definition, that is the only secret definition here.
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communeart


Registered: 12/04/06
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: communeart]
#14499784 - 05/23/11 03:58 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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that plus i'm drunk, so bare with me.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: communeart]
#14499789 - 05/23/11 03:59 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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communeart said: I was replying to Zappa saying they gave everything to the arabs, while in reality they gave 70% of the land to the jews. the rational was that jews will immigrate soon. it was refused by the arabs and there was no other negociation. i am not sure but i think jerusalem was completly jewish under that plan, correct me if i am wrong.
You know what else they did? They gave 100% of Israel to Isreal. Look at a fucking map. The freakshow Arabs got almost all of the middle east. And you are quite wrong about Jerusalem. What a surprise.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: communeart]
#14499793 - 05/23/11 04:00 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
communeart said: By the way, i don't get it. how can anyone claim that america is not imperialist. i thought i had a bad memory but how can you claim that 600 billion $$$ per year is a small military budget and they are not arming whoever the fuck they want plus invading other countries as it feels like. there's a war every 10 year and less with america is involved in all of them. name me a war in which america did not at least talkshit the countries into submission or rebellion.
You clearly don't know what the word means.
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communeart


Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 1,021
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14499808 - 05/23/11 04:03 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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i also find it difficult to sympathize with a government who seems to only want death and destruction and obstinately refuses israel's right to even exist.
It is actually wrong that the hamas obstinately refuse israel's legitimacy. Iran is having a tough position on israel and hamas is at least psychologically helped by iran if not by funding of money and arms. But the position are nuanced. they negociate the right of return for palestinians, they want to gain something out of all those people who lost their home and are prevented from going back in.
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You know what else they did? They gave 100% of Israel to Isreal. Look at a fucking map. The freakshow Arabs got almost all of the middle east. And you are quite wrong about Jerusalem. What a surprise.
arabs and jews are not equal races. they have different populations. according to some people's morality, human individuals are equal, that is why the arabs are superior in number. Palestine belongs to the palestinians, just like lebanon belongs to the lebanese people. your constant bullshiting about what identity is legitimate and isn't is frankly a joke and probably reveals ignorance about what is a national identity in the first place, nothing but illusions but an illusion that people believe in and thus must be respected.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: communeart]
#14499965 - 05/23/11 04:39 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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communeart said: that plus i'm drunk, so bare with me.
Quote:
communeart said:
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i also find it difficult to sympathize with a government who seems to only want death and destruction and obstinately refuses israel's right to even exist.
It is actually wrong that the hamas obstinately refuse israel's legitimacy. Iran is having a tough position on israel and hamas is at least psychologically helped by iran if not by funding of money and arms. But the position are nuanced. they negociate the right of return for palestinians, they want to gain something out of all those people who lost their home and are prevented from going back in.
It is in the Hamas charter. There will never be a right to return. 99% of the people who claim it never lived there.Quote:
Quote:
You know what else they did? They gave 100% of Israel to Isreal. Look at a fucking map. The freakshow Arabs got almost all of the middle east. And you are quite wrong about Jerusalem. What a surprise.
arabs and jews are not equal races. they have different populations. according to some people's morality, human individuals are equal, that is why the arabs are superior in number. Palestine belongs to the palestinians, just like lebanon belongs to the lebanese people. your constant bullshiting about what identity is legitimate and isn't is frankly a joke and probably reveals ignorance about what is a national identity in the first place, nothing but illusions but an illusion that people believe in and thus must be respected.
The Lebanese people are also Palestinians, are they not? Many Syrians, Jordanians, Egyptians also. Just fucking stop. Palestinian is an artificial ethnic group. They aren't any more Palestinian than the Jews. You speak of the right of return but condemn the European Jewish and Middle Eastern Jewish migration to their ancestral home? Even after they were driven out of those places for real and not by choice?
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communeart


Registered: 12/04/06
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14501094 - 05/23/11 08:32 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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It is in the Hamas charter. There will never be a right to return. 99% of the people who claim it never lived there.
they negociated, the problem with the right of return is that it affects children of those who were evicted from the homes, also that israeli have since taken residence in those same home.
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The Lebanese people are also Palestinians, are they not? Many Syrians, Jordanians, Egyptians also. Just fucking stop. Palestinian is an artificial ethnic group. They aren't any more Palestinian than the Jews. You speak of the right of return but condemn the European Jewish and Middle Eastern Jewish migration to their ancestral home? Even after they were driven out of those places for real and not by choice?
I remember a south park episode where the focus was on new jersey, an often repeated phrase was : It's a jersey thing.
Their ancestral home is very ancestral, it's also more or less their choice if they did not return up to that point . the messiah has to come and everything. i do not really condemn immigration of jews, i condemn the suffering of the palestinians. to be honest, i don't really give a fuck about what's going on in israel as much as i used to. it's a key conflict in the world. those on the side of israel are the powerful, and those on the side of palestine are the weak . it is obvious that my solidarity is with the palestinians seeing as how i want to hang the pope plus the majority of our parliamentary leaders for treason.
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,416
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: communeart]
#14501737 - 05/23/11 10:10 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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it's pointless to debate whose land it rightfully belongs to. everyone's land belonged to someone else at some point. what's done is done and it's time to move forward.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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Therian
Stranger

Registered: 03/04/09
Posts: 684
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: communeart]
#14501774 - 05/23/11 10:18 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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I was going to respond but honestly, whats the point? It seems like everything this guy states is some variation on the theme of incorrect, incoherent, schizophrenic, clusterfuck babble. Are you on drugs, suffering from the effects of autism, or did the pope, the Jews, your leaders and the U.S. force you to drink the firewater?
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: Therian]
#14502543 - 05/24/11 01:29 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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millzy said: it's pointless to debate whose land it rightfully belongs to. everyone's land belonged to someone else at some point. what's done is done and it's time to move forward.
Yes, but nobody is arguing the fact that land or other property once belonged to someone else constitutes some wrong. The whole point is whether the present party has a valid claim. Someone who seizes land in an aggressive war does not rightly own the land. Someone who seizes the land in a defensive war or pursuant to the agreement with the prior owner/sovereign, has justly aquired the land.
The whole point is whether Israel should have been formed and whether its formation was illegal. It doesn't really seem like there's any decent argument for either of these based on this thread, though perhaps someone will bring up something or be able to back up some of the previous claims.
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Therian said: I was going to respond but honestly, whats the point? It seems like everything this guy states is some variation on the theme of incorrect, incoherent, schizophrenic, clusterfuck babble. Are you on drugs, suffering from the effects of autism, or did the pope, the Jews, your leaders and the U.S. force you to drink the firewater?
I'm not really sure if your replying to communeart as your post indicates, as I don't understand your refrences, but whomever that was in reply to, you are not permitted to insult posters, such as by asking incredulously if they are on drugs or suffering from some ailment. You can argue his claims are incoherent or whatever, but namecalling and criticisms of the person are generally not allowed and off topic anyways.
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GazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214]
#14503133 - 05/24/11 06:53 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Someone who seizes land in an aggressive war does not rightly own the land.
The Ottomans seized the land in an agressive war so you would never consider them to have been a legitimate sovereign?
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Someone who seizes the land in a defensive war or pursuant to the agreement with the prior owner/sovereign, has justly aquired the land.
I dont really think the British driving the Ottomans from the area can be termed a defensive war do you? So going by your definition I cant quite see how the British can be classed as a legitimate sovereign. It seems much more accurate to say that it was merely a case of to the victor the spoils.
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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2jew4u
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14503590 - 05/24/11 10:06 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Well the Us took the land from the natives through trickery,war, disease. So does that not make US valid? And We still have Reservations-The Us equivalent to a Concentration camp- The only reason Israel exist, Is that it was given to them after WW2 to punish the Ottomans, for joing the Axis powers,(and we are a christian based nation derived from Judaism)- What should happen IMO is that they let them fight it out, but with out that interference and backing the US lavishes on Israel. Or Israel should just give back the land and make a peace full state, with the Palestinians. Its just such a waste of money, resources(thats the biggie),time. For them to fight over a few square miles of land.
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Therian
Stranger

Registered: 03/04/09
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: 2jew4u]
#14503887 - 05/24/11 11:29 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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you are not permitted to insult posters
I never insulted him, nor did I call him names. I merely ASKED if he was suffering from the EFFECTS of autism. I didn't say he was retarded. But since you brought it up I do feel as though he is suffering from some type of cognitive disorder. Name calling? Didn't a few people call Zappa a racist, and bigoted asshole?
Quote:
I remember a south park episode where the focus was on new jersey, an often repeated phrase was : It's a jersey thing.
Their ancestral home is very ancestral, it's also more or less their choice if they did not return up to that point . the messiah has to come and everything. i do not really condemn immigration of Jews, i condemn the suffering of the palestinians. to be honest, i don't really give a fuck about what's going on in israel as much as i used to. it's a key conflict in the world. those on the side of israel are the powerful, and those on the side of palestine are the weak . it is obvious that my solidarity is with the palestinians seeing as how i want to hang the pope plus the majority of our parliamentary leaders for treason.
So once again wtf does Cartman, the pope, parliamentary leaders,.... have to do with Israel? Those on the side of Palestine are weak? How is it that every Arab nation, much of Europe, as well as china weak?
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