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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14455646 - 05/15/11 10:57 AM (13 years, 7 days ago)

The borders in Europe do not have any more legitimacy but they have become accepted over time and are no longer an issue. Im sure many people were pissed off at certain points by invasions and land grabs etc and they had every right to be. There seems to be a real strong sense of two wrongs do make a right with the people who support the European Jews land grab in this thread.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
    #14455831 - 05/15/11 11:45 AM (13 years, 7 days ago)

The Basques disagree with you.  And what of the Balkans?  Those borders as drawn by the conquerors have already collapsed.  You are arbitrarily applying a different standard and one that is based on a false history.  European borders have very much been in dispute since the carve up following WW1


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
    #14455849 - 05/15/11 11:49 AM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

You have the burden to establish the relevance and justifiability of your claim and the source.




Interesting that you didnt make the same point to Seuss when he made his completely unsubstantiated claim. Double standards John? I didnt actually claim that this link offered the truth anyway just that it gave a different side of the picture to the comment Seuss had made.




You fail to show how the evidence cited is at all relevant nor to address the counterargument.

As for Seuss's claim and my response to it, it is irrelevant.  Stick to the topic- an alleged bias on my part has no relevance.

Since you asked: Seuss has always seemed to make well informed comments and been able to back up his claims with honest argumetns, facts.  As I am not familiar with the subject, I have no opinion on whether Seuss's claim has good factual support, and didn't care to address it. Other people who offer claims as to the merits of the topic seem to seldom be able to back up what they say or offer a cogent argument.  Often its these people whom I inquire of, as they seem to be unable to even provide an argument for their positions, and quickly reveal their position seems more politically, emotionally, motivated than anything else.

Quote:


Quote:

Given you fail to even make an argument, its difficult to know what your point is, but it sure seems to have failed.




I was just pointing out that Seuss made a completely unsubstantiated comment and that 10 seconds in google was enough to turn up information that could indicate he was talking out of his back side. No fail there old boy.




That doesn't seem to be what you've said in the post



Quote:

Quote:

The united Kingdom.  Please answer the question.




To my mind the UK had no right to act as Sovereign in the first place or to play a deciding role in decisions as to who should or should not be allowed to live on that land.





You have not answere the question, which asked on what grounds do you contest the legitimacy of the UK's soverignty if you do in fact contest such.  Your naked opinion is not helpful- the question is what moral or legal wrong, if any, is committed by Israel's establishment, continuance, and a blanket claim disfavoring the UK's claim is not helpful on either front.

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214]
    #14456119 - 05/15/11 01:01 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

As for Seuss's claim and my response to it, it is irrelevant.




Not irrelevant to me. It nicely highlighted the way you only like to impose your rigorous debating requirements on those you disagree with. That speaks volumes.

Quote:

Your naked opinion is not helpful- the question is what moral or legal wrong, if any, is committed by Israel's establishment, continuance, and a blanket claim disfavoring the UK's claim is not helpful on either front.





oh, you think there is actually an objective truth of right and wrong with this issue that we can discover through discourse? I disagree.

In my personal morality I would say the actions of Israel are wrong. Im not saying that is an objective fact.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14456140 - 05/15/11 01:04 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

You are arbitrarily applying a different standard




Really? Or are you merely thinking you know what I think?

Quote:

one that is based on a false history.




What false history would that be?

Quote:

European borders have very much been in dispute since the carve up following WW1




True. But I dont see how that has any relevance to my opinion on Israel.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
    #14456313 - 05/15/11 01:41 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

You are arbitrarily applying a different standard




Really? Or are you merely thinking you know what I think?

Quote:

one that is based on a false history.




What false history would that be?

Quote:

European borders have very much been in dispute since the carve up following WW1




True. But I dont see how that has any relevance to my opinion on Israel.




Quote:

GazzBut said:
The borders in Europe do not have any more legitimacy but they have become accepted over time and are no longer an issue. Im sure many people were pissed off at certain points by invasions and land grabs etc and they had every right to be. There seems to be a real strong sense of two wrongs do make a right with the people who support the European Jews land grab in this thread.




European borders have been no less disputed over time than the Mideast borders. 

What is the relevance to your discussion of Israel?  That you aren't applying the same criticism to all of Europe and the rest of the world, which borders have pretty much been established the same way.  Apparently you don't believe any borders are legitimate but restrict your criticism to only Israel.  I wonder why.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14456763 - 05/15/11 03:03 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Zappa, this thread is about Israel. I dont condone the way European borders were drawn up either but this thread is about Israel not Europe.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
    #14456883 - 05/15/11 03:20 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Zappa, this thread is about Israel. I dont condone the way European borders were drawn up either but this thread is about Israel not Europe.



So no borders suit you.  Absolutist idiocy.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14456953 - 05/15/11 03:30 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

lol, I didnt say that did I?

Is this the best you have got as a defence for European Jews being allowed to kick out the natives in the promised land?

At the end of the day this happened within the near past when as a species we would feel we had evolved and grown more civillised. It wasnt the dim and distant past when people still thought the Earth was flat was it?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
    #14457120 - 05/15/11 03:57 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
lol, I didnt say that did I?




Actually, you did.  If you thnk there are legit borders anywhere please chirp up.
Quote:



Is this the best you have got as a defence for European Jews being allowed to kick out the natives in the promised land?




They didn't kick them out.  They kicked themselves out.
Quote:



At the end of the day this happened within the near past when as a species we would feel we had evolved and grown more civillised. It wasnt the dim and distant past when people still thought the Earth was flat was it?



The European borders were drawn roughly the same time.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14460290 - 05/16/11 01:23 AM (13 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Actually, you did.  If you thnk there are legit borders anywhere please chirp up.




I would say borders where there is no long any meaningful dispute have gained legitimacy through time but that does not mean I think the way those borders were originally drawn necessarily had legitimacy.

Quote:


They didn't kick them out.  They kicked themselves out.




Source?


Quote:

The European borders were drawn roughly the same time.




Which borders are you talking about?


What I dont understand is that you support the Israelis attempting to redraw the map based on supposed historical precedent but were wholly opposed when Iraq attempted to do exactly the same in Kuwait, double standard much?


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
    #14461260 - 05/16/11 09:46 AM (13 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
lol, I didnt say that did I?

Is this the best you have got as a defence for European Jews being allowed to kick out the natives in the promised land?




What does it being the 'promised land' have to do with anything?

What do you base your claim that 'european jews' 'kicke[ed] out the natives' on, particularly?  Can you cite some particular prominent event or provide any explanation of this claim?  Since the topic is Israel, I presume you claim this to be morally attributable to Israel, yes?

Is this what people mean when they claim the land was 'stolen'? I've heard people say this kinda thing, but a big part of my puzzlement over this issue is the lack of any apparent justification.  If this "stolen land" argument actually refers to something like this that actually occurred it would be pretty relevant, I'd think.

So, is there any basis to this?

Quote:

At the end of the day this happened within the near past when as a species we would feel we had evolved and grown more civillised. It wasnt the dim and distant past when people still thought the Earth was flat was it?





So is this why your "whoever is there first gets the land, makes the government" argument somehow doesn't apply to the original jewish (religious and ethnic) people the right to enact a government but paradoxically grants the newcomers, muslim conquerors, that right?  Despite the muslims  moving in and killing the original residents and seizing the land, they somehow get the sovereign rights due to their acts being long ago?

Hmm, can you explain again how this "whoever is there first gets the land and the govenrment" reasoning works?  I don't recall any mention of all these exceptions the first time you said it- in fact: your argument seems to cut against your conclusion.

I take it then, that Israel need only ignore people like you for a while and then it suddenly becomes legitimate in your eyes once sufficient time has passed?  How long is this time period?  When will you agree Israel is legitimate?


Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

As for Seuss's claim and my response to it, it is irrelevant.




Not irrelevant to me. It nicely highlighted the way you only like to impose your rigorous debating requirements on those you disagree with. That speaks volumes.





As you've failed to show how any of this is relevant, and once more simply claimed it is without showing how, I'll assume this is just another ad hominem argument.  If there is anything relevant here, please indicate what it is.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
    #14461314 - 05/16/11 10:10 AM (13 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

Actually, you did.  If you thnk there are legit borders anywhere please chirp up.




I would say borders where there is no long any meaningful dispute have gained legitimacy through time but that does not mean I think the way those borders were originally drawn necessarily had legitimacy.




You don't think any borders had original legitimacy and the mere presence of a dispute eliminates even the legitimacy of tradition?  Wonderfully absurd.  Were that absurdist standard to be put into practice in the real universe every border would constantly be disputed.
Quote:

 



Quote:


They didn't kick them out.  They kicked themselves out.




Source?




Wiki.  Try it.
Quote:




Quote:

The European borders were drawn roughly the same time.




Which borders are you talking about?




All of them East of France, many of which have been redrawn twice since then.  So much for your contention that they are stable with no disputes.
Quote:




What I dont understand is that you support the Israelis attempting to redraw the map based on supposed historical precedent but were wholly opposed when Iraq attempted to do exactly the same in Kuwait, double standard much?




The Israelis redrew the map because they prevailed over their aggressive neighbors in a war of self defense.  If their neighbors had not acted aggressively Israel never would have changed its borders.  Even offered the land back the neighbors, Egypt and Jordan, wouldn't take it.  I was not aware of any Kuwaiti attacks against Iraq.  Are you arguing that you thought that just because Saddam said so Kuwait should be Iraqi territory?  What of border disputes arising from claims made by non heads of state actors?  Like the Basque Separatists?  Do they have the authority to challenge your supposed legitimacy of tradition?  What utter crap.  You have completely pretzeled yourself.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14465935 - 05/17/11 01:18 AM (13 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

You don't think any borders had original legitimacy and the mere presence of a dispute eliminates even the legitimacy of tradition?  Wonderfully absurd.




You seem to struggle understanding the simplest of sentences Zappa.

"that does not mean I think the way those borders were originally drawn necessarily had legitimacy."

Quote:

Wiki.  Try it.




In other words you dont have a source.

Quote:

All of them East of France, many of which have been redrawn twice since then.  So much for your contention that they are stable with no disputes.




Yes there have been border disputes in Europe in the 20th century. I must admit I was thinking more about Western Europe but even there we can still find disputes etc. Even so, what does this have to do with the European Jews taking over a foreign land?

Quote:

I was not aware of any Kuwaiti attacks against Iraq. 




It is believed by some that the Kuwaitis had begun slant drilling into Iraqi oil fields. Whilst not a physical attack Im sure its something the US would be willing to fire a few missiles at civilians for if their own oil fields came under such attack. Also, the Iraqis considered that the Kuwaitis had deliberately raised their own oil production to prevent the Iraqi economy recovering from war. I dont know how true this is but Saddam stated this as a reason when captured in 2003 (cue predictable knee jerk dismissal)

Kuwait had also formerly been a part of Iraq before the Ottoman - British carve up of the middle east. Im not saying this condones Saddam's actions or gives him any right to do what he did.

Quote:

The Israelis redrew the map because they prevailed over their aggressive neighbors in a war of self defense.




The whole point is they were not Israelis they were European Jews. They only became Israelis after the West enabled them to redraw the map and depose the native population.

Quote:

Are you arguing that you thought that just because Saddam said so Kuwait should be Iraqi territory?




No! I have never said that. Im just pointing out that you choose to support some attempts at redrawing borders and condemn others based solely on your political beliefs. For instance, if you changed Iraq for Israel and Kuwait for say Syria you would have fully supported an Israeli invasion because those filthy Muslims were stealing Israeli oil and you know it. Similarly you support the European Jews basically invading a foreign land because it sits comfortably with your political position.

I do not condone the use of force for purely selfish gain in any situation.

Quote:

What of border disputes arising from claims made by non heads of state actors?  Like the Basque Separatists?  Do they have the authority to challenge your supposed legitimacy of tradition?




You misunderstand me. When I say that legitimacy can arise over time that is only possible if all parties basically decide to accept the borders as they are and get on with their lives. In the case of the Basque this is obviously not the case.

Quote:

  What utter crap.  You have completely pretzeled yourself.




I dont think so.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214]
    #14465996 - 05/17/11 01:39 AM (13 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Can you cite some particular prominent event or provide any explanation of this claim?  Since the topic is Israel, I presume you claim this to be morally attributable to Israel, yes?




The 1948 Palestinian exodus would provide a fairly prominent event although obviously the whole process begun long before this.

Narkba

1948 Exodus

This sort of thing hasnt really ever stopped with Palestinian homes still being illegally bulldozed.

Quote:

So is this why your "whoever is there first gets the land, makes the government"




Thats not really my position but I dont support the use of force for selfish gain in any situation.

Can I assume that your position is along the lines of might is right and the powerful can therefore do as they wish against the less powerful? Or is it simply some advanced version of two wrongs can make a right?

If not can you please explain to me how you justify as acceptable the European Jews arriving en masse in a foreign land and deposing the native population?

Quote:

As you've failed to show how any of this is relevant, and once more simply claimed it is without showing how, I'll assume this is just another ad hominem argument.  If there is anything relevant here, please indicate what it is.




1) Seuss made an unsubstantiated claim which you made not attempt to highlight or mention burden of proof.

2) I made no claim whatsoever. I posed a question and provided a link which gave an alternative position to the one made by Seuss that Israel was a barren land before the Jews settled it

3) You then jumped on me and said "You have the burden to establish the relevance and justifiability of your claim and the source." When in fact I had not made a claim in the first place Seuss had.

Re-read the thread and I think you will see I am correct.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut] * 1
    #14466211 - 05/17/11 03:41 AM (13 years, 5 days ago)

source my balls.

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #14466243 - 05/17/11 04:11 AM (13 years, 5 days ago)

Thanks for that.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
    #14468482 - 05/17/11 03:32 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

The first paragraph from your link regarding the 1948 exodus:

Quote:

The 1948 Palestinian exodus (Arabic: الهجرة الفلسطينية‎, al-Hijra al-Filasṭīnīya), also known as the Nakba (Arabic: النكبة‎, an-Nakbah), meaning the "disaster", "catastrophe", or "cataclysm",[1] occurred when approximately 725,000 Palestinian Arabs left, fled or were expelled from their homes, during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War and the Civil War that preceded it.[2] The exact number of actual refugees is a matter of dispute, depending upon the source. [3] Although some authors, such as Ilan Pappé, describe this exodus as forced deportation or ethnic cleansing,[4][3] others see it from a different perspective. Mark Tessler, in his History of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, says, "The reasons for this mass exodus....were and to some extent remain the subject of fundamental disagreement between Arabs and Israelis." He uses the words of UN mediator Bernadotte, who said that the Palestinians became refugees "in response to 'the hazards and strategy of the armed conflict' swirling around them."[5]




I wouldn't be so polite as to say that the armed conflict was "swirling around them".  They were part and parcel of it and took sides with the enemy.  Abbas himself can't seem to get his story straight:
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/05/was-mahmoud-abbass-family-expelled-from-palestine/238999/

Quote:

This does not seem to be true. On other occasions, Abbas has stated that his family left Safed out of a general fear that Jews would seek "retribution" against the Arabs of Safed for an earlier slaughter of Jews by Arabs. Here is his 2007 recounting of his family's self-exile from Safed:




Links at the link, as they say.

Israel's original insane borders were set by the UN, just like every other border in the middle east.  Over some time they expanded slightly.  Additionally we have this:

Quote:

Reaching a successful settlement of this dispute will require both sides, Arab and Israeli, to grapple with their mistakes. Mahmoud Abbas cannot bring himself to note that the Jews accepted the partition plan, while the Arabs rejected it, and went to war to extinguish the new Jewish state in the cradle, and then lost their offensive war. During this war, many Arabs were expelled from Palestine by Israeli forces; many others fled. This is not a unique historical event; most wars cause massive population dislocations. It is worth noting that some Jews, a smaller number, were also expelled from their towns and farms by Arab forces. Larger numbers of Jews -- 800,000 -- were subsequently expelled from Arab countries, where they and their ancestors had lived for hundreds, even thousands, of years. These Jews are not considered refugees today because they were taken in by Israel and given citizenship. The Arab refugees from Palestine were not treated nearly so well by their brethren.




This treatment of supposed Palestinian Arabs by their own brothers continued in the aftermath of the 1967 war where Jordan, Egypt and Syria lost territory.  Those countries did not accept refugees.  In fact, years later, Jordan and Egypt refused to take back their territory, reached agreements with Israel and accepted border establishments.  By your own definition they are traditionally established as legitimate.  State actors with authority and claims have reached local border agreements.  Non-state thugs with no authority continue to dispute the borders because they are lunatic losers who can't accept defeat.  They have no standing.  The agents with standing, Jordan and Egypt, reached agreement regarding the territory and borders.  By accepted convention those borders are established and have not changed for over 40 years.  Eastern Europe cannot say the same thing.

Your babble about European Jew invaders is racist bullshit.  Is your problem that they are too white to live there?  Any nation has the right to determine its immigration policy.  Why do you suppose Israel was even created if not to provide a haven for Jews from the scummy fucking Euro slime that eradicated so many of them?  It wasn't just the Nazis.  They had plenty of helpers in the nations they invaded and not all of them were coerced.  Why any Jews would continue to live in those nations is a mystery to me.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14471375 - 05/18/11 01:40 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

They were part and parcel of it and took sides with the enemy.




So all 700,000 refugees were actually members of an army? Your position is made very clear here also when you refer to the Palestinians as "the enemy". How can you really expect to take an objective view when you hold a preconceived notion as one party as being the enemy?

Quote:


Israel's original insane borders were set by the UN, just like every other border in the middle east.  Over some time they expanded slightly.




What gives the UN the right to decide these borders in the first place? Your whole position simply boils down to might is right and stems from your perception of the Palestinians as an enemy. You seem to have no sense of how many innocent individuals have suffered as part of this process.

Quote:

Mahmoud Abbas cannot bring himself to note that the Jews accepted the partition plan, while the Arabs rejected it, and went to war to extinguish the new Jewish state in the cradle, and then lost their offensive war.




So a bunch of foreigners turn up on your doorstep and decide they are going to take over land that was previously not theirs and set up their own state in your backyard with the assistance of groups who have a history of treating you badly and you would just welcome them with open arms? As if! For what possible reason should the Arabs have accepted the partition plan in the first place? So they went to war and lost, that gives Israel legitimacy? Might is right...

Quote:

These Jews are not considered refugees today because they were taken in by Israel and given citizenship. The Arab refugees from Palestine were not treated nearly so well by their brethren.




Can you please expand upon what your point is here and what relevance it has to this discussion? I dont really see what it has to do with whether or not the European Jews should have been allowed to create a country in a foreign land.

Quote:

Your babble about European Jew invaders is racist bullshit.




I have just been called a racist? Really? I find that highly insulting. Luckily for you the mods seem to only take action against people they dont agree with.

Perhaps you would care to explain how this is racist? It seems like an accurate description to me. If they weren't Europeans where did the come from? Were they invited? If not it surely is not much of a stretch to describe it as an invasion.

Quote:

Is your problem that they are too white to live there? 




And you accuse me of babbling? You seem so keen to put words in my mouth just so you can argue with yourself. Why not try sticking to the facts and what have I actually said instead?

Quote:

Any nation has the right to determine its immigration policy.




Apart from the Palestinians who had the right to self-determination denied them by the British. Can you explain why that is acceptable? Oh right of course, they are the enemy...

Quote:

Why do you suppose Israel was even created if not to provide a haven for Jews from the scummy fucking Euro slime that eradicated so many of them?




Abominable yes, I quite agree. Why you think that gives them the right to go and depose 700,000 people from their own homes and businesses and continue to do so in breach of international law to this very day is quite beyond me though.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14472004 - 05/18/11 07:29 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

I wouldn't be so polite as to say that the armed conflict was "swirling around them".  They were part and parcel of it and took sides with the enemy.  Abbas himself can't seem to get his story straight:
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/05/was-mahmoud-abbass-family-expelled-from-palestine/238999/





I would just add that this link is weak!

Abbas said in 2011:

"Sixty-three years ago, a 13-year-old Palestinian boy was forced to leave his home in the Galilean city of Safed and flee with his family to Syria. He took up shelter in a canvas tent provided to all the arriving refugees. Though he and his family wished for decades to return to their home and homeland, they were denied that most basic of human rights."

Abbas said in 2007:

"When Abbas was 13, "we left on foot at night to the Jordan River... Eventually we settled in Damascus... My father had money, and he spent his money methodically. After a year, when the money ran out, we began to work. "People were motivated to run away... They feared retribution from Zionist terrorist organizations - particularly from the Safed ones. Those of us from Safed especially feared that the Jews harbored old desires to avenge what happened during the 1929 uprising [Muslim pogroms instigated by the Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini, known later for his Nazi sympathies]. This was in the memory of our families and parents... They realized the balance of forces was shifting and therefore the whole town was abandoned on the basis of this rationale - saving our lives and our belongings."


Goldberg has manufactured an entire article out of the fact that in the first recounting Abbas uses the word forced and in the second he uses the word motivated. He could have used compelled, driven, caused, coerced etc and all would still make sense. They were forced to leave by the increasing power of the Zionist community in that area and the fears were not unfounded. 4 years later he uses a different word to describe the same thing, big deal.

All this proves is Goldberg is a shoddy journalist with an agenda.

Edited by GazzBut (05/18/11 07:29 AM)

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