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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14399696 - 05/04/11 12:18 PM (13 years, 18 days ago) |
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The sticks did. That is how nature works, its always been that way for billions of years.
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GazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214] 3
#14399846 - 05/04/11 12:48 PM (13 years, 18 days ago) |
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What is a "fully objective legal truth" and what does it have to do with this thread?
My god you are so tedious! My post was clearly in response to the title of your thread. If there are specific guidelines that need to be followed as to what does and does not fully merit being considered relevant to the thread perhaps you should post them at the start?
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I don't understand what your trying to express here.
Thats probably because your too busy thumbing through your theseaurus and thinking about how to formulate your next overly complicated and patronising reply to actually bother trying to really understand what anybody else is saying.
My post consisted of 77 words in fairly plain English. I think it is quite clear what I was saying but let me try and clear it up for you John with some bulletpoints:
* The legality of the founding of Israel depends on your point of view. Neither of these points of view can be shown to have any special validity in an objective sense,they are merely subjective judgements made by specific groups of people - As you asked was Israels founding bad I was trying to explain that I dont think there is a definitive legal arguement that can be used to either prove or disprove that claim.
* I then gave my opinion that religous fairy tales do not give anybody the right to claim a piece of land as their own.
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What does whether a bunch of Europeans have or do not have the right to go an live in a foreign country have to do with anything- with or without conforming beliefs? a) that is not the question, b) you've failed to demonstrate how this argument relates to the question. It seems like your trying to argue against a very particular, alas unstated, argument for Israel's creation, but its not too helpful as this cherry-picked justification's validity is not neccesary for Israel to not be wrongly created-maintained. If your aim is not to argue against this cherry-picked agument for Israel's founding then I have no idea what its point is as you fail to identify it.
Oh get off your high horse! Re-read the title of your thread and realise that I have simply given my opinion. This is the Shroomery John, not Harvard fucking debate school.
So we are clear, I think the creation of Israel was not so much bad as an act of calculated imperialism that borders on the evil. To anyone with half a brain it is so clearly obvious that geo politics has been behind this from the very start. The way the West has meddled in this region as a whole for well over a century now is a disgrace. Its all fuelled by the raging, egotistical greed of unevolved monkeys and in the future, if we make it that far, we will look back and laugh at the pathetically stupid games we have played and how easy it was for a small bunch of evil fucks to convince the sheeple that they were the good guys working for the greater good of humanity.
FUCK ISRAEL!
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14400094 - 05/04/11 01:54 PM (13 years, 18 days ago) |
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GazzBut said:
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f the founding of Israel is illegal than the founding of every single nation in the mid-east and Europe is illegal.
Would you care to explain how that makes any kind of sense? And why wouldnt the founding of the US fall into the same bracket?
Every single nation in Europe and the Mid-East has had their boundaries determined by conquerors. OK, if you want to say the US, too although we bought a lot of it from other conquerors. Quote:
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And they have the right to live there if the government there says they do.
Which government are you referring to?
The Israeli government. Duh.
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GazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod] 1
#14403770 - 05/05/11 05:44 AM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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The Israeli government. Duh.
You are kidding right? There was no Israeli govenerment when the Jews started turning up en masse.
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14404247 - 05/05/11 08:52 AM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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GazzBut said:
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What is a "fully objective legal truth" and what does it have to do with this thread?
My god you are so tedious! My post was clearly in response to the title of your thread. If there are specific guidelines that need to be followed as to what does and does not fully merit being considered relevant to the thread perhaps you should post them at the start?
I really don't understand your objection. The only way it seems to make any sense is if you are reluctant to defend what you've said for whatever reason. I have only responded to what you've said. If this is tedious then I would imagine the fault lies with you- how else may an issue be discussed but through addressing the points raised?
I understand the reply is likely proffered for some point thought relevant to the central question- I don't get your incredulity at my question, hoever; even granting this. How is the fact that I understand what the point was offered to demonstrate of any assistance in understanding what that point actually is and how it relates, logically, to the question?
I really don't see any legitimate objection here- please correct me if I'm mistaken.
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I don't understand what your trying to express here.
Thats probably because your too busy thumbing through your theseaurus and thinking about how to formulate your next overly complicated and patronising reply to actually bother trying to really understand what anybody else is saying.
I assume this is just intended as an insult to my person and manner of writing. It doesn't seem very nice or helpful, especially as you don't explain your conclusions and thereby prevent them from being constructive.
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So your arguing there is nothing inherently wrong with Israel's creation?
No, as I said, I am asking whether there is anything wrong with Israel's existance or creation- read the original post. That a particular argument is identified as unsound does not imply that a correct argument as to the matter is known. I can tell some wacky Israel criticism is garbage without knowing whether there are any valid criticisms. Previously you've made a bunch of strawman attacks premised upon this relatively elementary fallacy.
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My post consisted of 77 words in fairly plain English. I think it is quite clear what I was saying but let me try and clear it up for you John with some bulletpoints:
* The legality of the founding of Israel depends on your point of view. Neither of these points of view can be shown to have any special validity in an objective sense,they are merely subjective judgements made by specific groups of people -
So your arguing there is nothing inherently wrong with Israel's creation? If the matter is subjective and legitimate views that Israeel is fine both morally and legally may be held, then it would seem the question would have to be answered in the negative: that there isn't anything inherently wrong with the creation of maintanance of Israel because the matter is a function of personal preference (or perhaps you mean to claim no law/morals exist- either way). Is this correct? If not, why?
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As you asked was Israels founding bad I was trying to explain that I dont think there is a definitive legal arguement that can be used to either prove or disprove that claim.
I don't see the explanation: I see you declaring various conclusions: what have you explained in this regard?
As for definitive legal arguments: how about that Israel was created legitimately because its territory was obtained in a legal transaction: the prior owner with lawful soveriegnty ceeded the land to Israel who thereafter has excercised de jure and de facto jurisdiction.
As this complies with international law, including such rightfully applied to states with an interest in the matter, wouldn't this be fairly objective? You seem to simply declare the matter a subjective one, but I'm interested in the justification for either position, not endorsements.
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* I then gave my opinion that religous fairy tales do not give anybody the right to claim a piece of land as their own.
Yes, and since that doesn't seem dispositive of the issue, I said I don't understand what the point is- you seem to be arguing what doesn't justify Israel's existance or the existance of other puported states, rather than whether Israel is or is not justified in existing.
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What does whether a bunch of Europeans have or do not have the right to go an live in a foreign country have to do with anything- with or without conforming beliefs? a) that is not the question, b) you've failed to demonstrate how this argument relates to the question. It seems like your trying to argue against a very particular, alas unstated, argument for Israel's creation, but its not too helpful as this cherry-picked justification's validity is not neccesary for Israel to not be wrongly created-maintained. If your aim is not to argue against this cherry-picked agument for Israel's founding then I have no idea what its point is as you fail to identify it.
Oh get off your high horse! Re-read the title of your thread and realise that I have simply given my opinion. This is the Shroomery John, not Harvard fucking debate school.
Are you replying in good faith? If your just going to have a hissy fit or make emotional outbursts like this I don't wnat to speak with you and I doubt the on-topic forums are the place for your tantrums.
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So we are clear, I think the creation of Israel was not so much bad as an act of calculated imperialism that borders on the evil.
How so? The state obtained the land in a voluntary transaction and the land is governed by local people and government. How is this imperial in any way? It would seem the other states and their residents seeking to overthrow Israel would be the imperialists- that is if the term wasn't just used a slur with little real meaning.
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how easy it was for a small bunch of evil fucks to convince the sheeple that they were the good guys working for the greater good of humanity.
FUCK ISRAEL!
Reductio ad Lambchop
Not too convincing
Edited by johnm214 (05/05/11 09:17 AM)
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14404285 - 05/05/11 09:01 AM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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DieCommie said: The sticks did. That is how nature works, its always been that way for billions of years.
Didn't the fact that the previous defacto and dejure sovereign had voluntary ceeded the land to the state, and that its creation was in compliance with international law and UN rulings, have quite a bit to do with givingn them the rights to put up sticks as well?
To charecterize the creation of teh state as simply a seizure of jurisdiction, as others seem to do with the 'setting up sticks' metaphor, seems pretty dishonest. They were given the sovereignty voluntarily- that they continue to maintain it with the sticks is just another point in their favor.
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GazzBut said:
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The Israeli government. Duh.
You are kidding right? There was no Israeli govenerment when the Jews started turning up en masse.
What is the relevance? If "they" didn't have the right to liver there before, what does this matter? The Israel government is cool with it, if some other previous state wasn't, then so what?
I'm a bit confused by your stance though: previously you stated fairy tales aren't justification to decide residency, citezinship, et cet. Now you seem to suggest nationality is- is this correct? If not, on what ground do you base your skepticism of the legality of the settlement of various peoples in the area? (obviously the issue of 'rights' you raised is irreelvant- just because they don't have a right to residency doesn't mean their residency was wrongful. A right is something a person is owed, they may just as easily be given a privledge or allowed one to the same effects. For this reason I've ignored your "rights" qualifier as spurious).
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Stranger


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: Seuss] 1
#14405489 - 05/05/11 02:14 PM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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Seuss said: It is unlikely that any of your tax money is making it to Israel.
The government gets its money from taxes, a percentage of everyones money makes it to Israel, Israel gets billions every year.
Whether or not Israel exists means nothing to me, I just don't want to pay for it.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: lines]
#14405860 - 05/05/11 03:33 PM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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Israel's aid money comes from federal income taxes. Poorer people dont pay federal income tax, they only pay social security and state taxes, which does not fund Israel. That is what I think he was getting at.
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: DieCommie] 1
#14406008 - 05/05/11 04:07 PM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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That may be true diecommie, But the reality is that any money to Israel is most likely coming from deficit spending.
The end result is that it adds more on to the deficit, which devalues the dollar, which means everyone has to pay more for things.
Don;t forget about the more sneaky inflation tax, which by far affects poor people's standard of living the most.
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PMATL
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214]
#14408317 - 05/06/11 01:03 AM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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johnm214 said:
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DieCommie said: The sticks did. That is how nature works, its always been that way for billions of years.
Didn't the fact that the previous defacto and dejure sovereign had voluntary ceeded the land to the state, and that its creation was in compliance with international law and UN rulings, have quite a bit to do with givingn them the rights to put up sticks as well?
To charecterize the creation of teh state as simply a seizure of jurisdiction, as others seem to do with the 'setting up sticks' metaphor, seems pretty dishonest. They were given the sovereignty voluntarily- that they continue to maintain it with the sticks is just another point in their favor.
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GazzBut said:
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The Israeli government. Duh.
You are kidding right? There was no Israeli govenerment when the Jews started turning up en masse.
What is the relevance? If "they" didn't have the right to liver there before, what does this matter? The Israel government is cool with it, if some other previous state wasn't, then so what?
I'm a bit confused by your stance though: previously you stated fairy tales aren't justification to decide residency, citezinship, et cet. Now you seem to suggest nationality is- is this correct? If not, on what ground do you base your skepticism of the legality of the settlement of various peoples in the area? (obviously the issue of 'rights' you raised is irreelvant- just because they don't have a right to residency doesn't mean their residency was wrongful. A right is something a person is owed, they may just as easily be given a privledge or allowed one to the same effects. For this reason I've ignored your "rights" qualifier as spurious).
 Dude, come on. You cannot possibly be this pretentious and this thick at the same time. The previous "de jure and de facto" (seriously with this vocab?) government was The British Empire. The Christians. The White Man. Europe. The West. The Infidels.
It's not as if the governor of the protectorate went around polling the average Arab Muslim and asking him whether he wanted to voluntarily cede his holy land to Jews. The British were trying to abandon their former empire because they couldn't pay for it any longer, and Europe felt bad for the Jews so they decided to give them Israel. (Just like in the Bible. How cute.) It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why your average Middle Easterner thinks thats bullshit.
Yeah, the Arabs had always been living under the "foreign imperial power" of the Ottoman Empire, but at least those dudes were Muslims too, and certainly weren't gonna invite the jews back.
-------------------- It is impossible to convey the life-sensation of any given epoch of one's existence--that which makes its truth, its meaning--its subtle and penetrating essence. It is impossible. We live, as we dream--alone. It's legs to walk and thoughts to fly Eyes that laugh and lips that cry A restless tongue to classify, All born to grow and grown to die
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GazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214]
#14408416 - 05/06/11 01:43 AM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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I'm a bit confused by your stance though: previously you stated fairy tales aren't justification to decide residency, citezinship, et cet. Now you seem to suggest nationality is- is this correct?
I am saying the people who had been living there before the Jews decided to leave Europe had rights purely by the virtue of being there first, in my opinion. The British prevented Palestinian self-determination at the end of the first world war which allowed the Jews to establish a foothold there. Obviously the Jews also legally purchased alot of land but land ownership should not equate to political control of the land. The Palestinian people, the everyday souls who lived on the land, were particularly vulnerable at this time and the the Jews took full advantage of this fact.
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(obviously the issue of 'rights' you raised is irreelvant- just because they don't have a right to residency doesn't mean their residency was wrongful. A right is something a person is owed, they may just as easily be given a privledge or allowed one to the same effects. For this reason I've ignored your "rights" qualifier as spurious). D4D0C8
lol!
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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PMATL
Stranger

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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14409372 - 05/06/11 10:07 AM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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It's like telling the Native Americans we "legally" bought their land
-------------------- It is impossible to convey the life-sensation of any given epoch of one's existence--that which makes its truth, its meaning--its subtle and penetrating essence. It is impossible. We live, as we dream--alone. It's legs to walk and thoughts to fly Eyes that laugh and lips that cry A restless tongue to classify, All born to grow and grown to die
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Phred
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14409455 - 05/06/11 10:24 AM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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The British prevented Palestinian self-determination at the end of the first world war...
And the Ottoman Turks prevented it before that. What's your point?
Phred
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PMATL
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: Phred]
#14409494 - 05/06/11 10:33 AM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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Um.....that the Palestinian people did not voluntarily cede the land to their most hated ethnic/religious group. At least the Turks were Muslims too
And just because "the Turks did it before hand" doesn't make it right for Britain to do
"Well, the previous owner of this dog beat it; so whats the problem if I beat it too?"
-------------------- It is impossible to convey the life-sensation of any given epoch of one's existence--that which makes its truth, its meaning--its subtle and penetrating essence. It is impossible. We live, as we dream--alone. It's legs to walk and thoughts to fly Eyes that laugh and lips that cry A restless tongue to classify, All born to grow and grown to die
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: PMATL]
#14409537 - 05/06/11 10:44 AM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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The fucking Muslims got just about everything there except for one tiny sliver. Until they tried for the whole pie they could have lived in Israel with full voting rights. Jordan and Egypt wouldn't have anything to do with them. The people of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank were, respectively, Egyptian and Jordanian citizens. They lost the war, Egypt and Jordan should have taken their citizens back. But they didn't. Because even they know these fucking assholes are insane monsters.
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GazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14409553 - 05/06/11 10:48 AM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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Which ever way you look at it a bunch of wealthy Europeans marched into a foreign land and felt compelled to claim it as their own based on a book of fairy tales. Well out of order.
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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GazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: Phred]
#14409557 - 05/06/11 10:49 AM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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Work it out for yourself Phred, I grow weary of willful obtusiveness.
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: PMATL]
#14409572 - 05/06/11 10:51 AM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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Um.....that the Palestinian people did not voluntarily cede the land to their most hated ethnic/religious group.
And what country today exists because an original people voluntarily ceded the land to the present administrators? That's right, folks... none. Yet no one questions the validity of the existence of Canada or Australia or Spain or Denmark or Belize or Brazil or Jordan.... only of Israel. Israel is unique in the world in that regard.
Next, what's all this about the Jews having been the most hated (by "Palestinians") ethnic/religious group? I thought all you progressives insist that the problem is not that the Palis hate Jews for being Jews, but for having "stolen" the land. How could they have been hated by the "Palestinians" before they stole the land?
Your Freudian slip reveals your actual beliefs about the situation - it's not that someone "stole" the land, it's that Jews did.
Phred
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14409606 - 05/06/11 10:58 AM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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Which ever way you look at it a bunch of wealthy Europeans marched into a foreign land and felt compelled to claim it as their own based on a book of fairy tales.
And how does this differ from a bunch of wealthy Europeans marching into a foreign land and claiming it as their own in South America? Or in Africa? Or in North America? Or in Australia? Or New Zealand? Or in Asia? Are you trying to tell us this has never occurred?
Yet no one questions the legitimacy of such conquered-by-wealthy-Europeans states as Brazil or Belize or Canada. Just Israel.
Why the difference?
Phred
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GazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: Phred]
#14409623 - 05/06/11 11:02 AM (13 years, 16 days ago) |
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Of course, all of the cases you mention are just as heinous. But where did I say that they arent? The topic of this thread was Israel, please try and stay on topic.
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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