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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel?
#14394166 - 05/03/11 12:12 PM (13 years, 19 days ago) |
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What is wrong with Israel existing? Were someone's rights violated by the state's formation or continued existence?
This thread has been made in the past by me, but from the start was inundated with irrelevant name calling, speculation on hidden agendas, psychoanalysis, and other off topic gibberish. To help avert this from happening again, let us concede for the sake of argument that I am a racist pro-Israel shill who is incurably biased towards Israel, ignorant, an uncritical consumer of 'bad' media, a fool who can't think for himself, and that my posts betray psychological/educational deficits and bias as to the topic.
With the forgoing conceded, what, if anything, is there to say on the merits of the question? Please address the merits rather than whatever you've managed to learn about me or my views via the phrasing of my question.
I note that many people seem to accuse the state of Israel as basically stealing land, being an outrage, and generally being poo poo heads, but other than racial/religious preferences, which don't seem very persuasive, I've never heard any clear articulation for how this is so. Is it? Is Israel committing injustice by continuing to exist, by being formed in the first place?
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JT


Registered: 02/28/07
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214]
#14394413 - 05/03/11 01:14 PM (13 years, 19 days ago) |
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I don't know if you can separate the religious issue really. Seems to me that is the big problem. The abrahamic religions all felt they had a claim to the holy land. So even if the establishment was perfectly legal and relativelyy justified, certain people will always be butthurt because the jews own it completely.
Sorry if that's derailing the thread or not the issue you wanted to talk about. This is something I'm really interested in too and I would like some good factual/unbiased info (if that's possible?)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: JT] 1
#14394567 - 05/03/11 01:53 PM (13 years, 19 days ago) |
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They originally split Jerusalem in half but then the Muslims got greedy and tried for the whole loaf and the eradication of Israel. They lost. Because they are inept incompetent morons. It wasn't enough that they got all the natural resources in the region. They had to have the last resource devoid tract, a tiny sliver of nothing.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: JT]
#14394621 - 05/03/11 02:04 PM (13 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
JT said: I don't know if you can separate the religious issue really. Seems to me that is the big problem. The abrahamic religions all felt they had a claim to the holy land. So even if the establishment was perfectly legal and relativelyy justified, certain people will always be butthurt because the jews own it completely.
Sorry if that's derailing the thread or not the issue you wanted to talk about. This is something I'm really interested in too and I would like some good factual/unbiased info (if that's possible?)
No, not at all: your question/observation is fine. The things I was referring to as off topic that previously inundated this thread were more like "your obviously a biased american jew lover if you don't know" or "by the way you ask your question I can tell you are ignorant of [insert disputed Israeli policy here]". Then the fruitcake crew showed up with an expose of the reptilian-jew alliance...
As for your request for unbiased discussion, I think it was Seuss that stated in the last thread that Israel discussions seem to bring out the worst in everyone. We'll see where this goes, lol
As for the religious angle, I don't really care. As far as I can tell, you have no moral right to have the leaders of the soverign nation you live in be a particular religion or oppress others of the 'wrong' religion. This being the case, I see no reason why the religious difference is relevant per se. I agree people might be pissed about that, but tought shit- I'm wondering if there is any moral/legal problem with Israel's existance, as the critics seem to frequently claim, that doesn't require faith in holy books and an invisible god that doesn't want you to eat pork..
Quote:
zappaisgod said: They originally split Jerusalem in half but then the Muslims got greedy and tried for the whole loaf and the eradication of Israel. They lost. Because they are inept incompetent morons. It wasn't enough that they got all the natural resources in the region. They had to have the last resource devoid tract, a tiny sliver of nothing.
Yeah, though then again, if the state was unjustly created for some reason, the subsequant wars don't neccesarily change that- whoever instituted them. The claims I've heard for how Israel's creation was unjust seem to involve either vague notions of theft or just flat-out incorrect claims of the history (i.e. that the jews stole the land from a Palestinian state and made Israel with it or something like that).
For all the whining the arab states do, and all the problems certain groups have with Israel, you'd think the often-made claims about how the state's existance is unjust could be justified with something
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214]
#14394881 - 05/03/11 03:05 PM (13 years, 19 days ago) |
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There was nothing any more unjust about the creation of Israel than any other nation, especially in the mid-east where they were all carved out of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. The entire UK is a spoil of war as is every other European nation. Every fucking one.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14395283 - 05/03/11 04:42 PM (13 years, 19 days ago) |
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Well, given the land of Israel was captured by the defender in an aggressive war and then voluntarily ceeded to an international body for the purpose of creating the state, I'd say Israel came about through much more just processes than the average case.
Anyways, I doubt there's anything special about Europe in regards to being a spoil of war: pretty much all boundaries are determined by war or recognizance of soveriegnty voluntarily- which has only historically been possible when one has the military to enforce such claims in actuality.
The theory of nationhood that gives the local people the right to form their own government seems to make some sense- at least as much as the other theories. Of course, as the post WWII independant states testify to: many times it seems like they'd be better off as colonies. I recall a chinese dissident openly claiming that China needs colonizing by a western-style liberal democracy to make the people get used to a government that's not completely demented in the way the PRC and other Asian nations have been. KInda interesting as a viewpoint given the common theme of imperialism being used as a slur..
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Stranger


Registered: 08/06/08
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14395388 - 05/03/11 05:03 PM (13 years, 19 days ago) |
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I dont have a problem with Israel existing, I have a problem with America giving Israel money and weapons. I dont want America to support any side in a conflict happening in foreign lands, America should mind its own business.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: lines]
#14395421 - 05/03/11 05:09 PM (13 years, 19 days ago) |
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I think supporting the rule of law is America's business. And America also buys weapons from Israel. We just give them some money. They fight their own battles.
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Stranger


Registered: 08/06/08
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14395534 - 05/03/11 05:35 PM (13 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: I think supporting the rule of law is America's business. And America also buys weapons from Israel. We just give them some money. They fight their own battles.
Well I'm not comfortable with Israel taking my tax dollars.
If anything Israel should be giving America weapons, so our deal from Israel is that we give it tons of money and then we have to buy weapons from it. Huh?
Or did you mean to say Israel buys weapons from us? So in that case it would be we give Israel tons of money that it uses to buy our weapons... huh? What?
So I guess in that deal "Joe Sixpack" picks up the bill.
I think its time for "little Israel" to grow up. It should rely on its own money and its own business. I dont like being taxed to give money to that country. I don't support any side and I don't have a problem with Israel existing.
I am sick of little Israel taking my money through taxes, maybe its time for little Israel to be a big boy. Its not Americas job to wipe the bum of all these foreign countries and take care of all these foreign countries.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: lines]
#14395574 - 05/03/11 05:43 PM (13 years, 19 days ago) |
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Joe Sixpack doesn't pay any taxes to speak of.
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14395646 - 05/03/11 05:58 PM (13 years, 19 days ago) |
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So lets get real here, what are the real reasons for a new crusade?
The underlying reasons still elude me.
Is is sacred relics? ancient scrolls?
Or is it just religious zealotry?
Some kind of eternal throne on earth for the Israelites?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: Shins] 1
#14395677 - 05/03/11 06:02 PM (13 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said: So lets get real here, what are the real reasons for a new crusade?
There is no crusade Quote:
The underlying reasons still elude me.
A lot of things elude youQuote:
Is is sacred relics? ancient scrolls?
 Quote:
Or is it just religious zealotry?
 Quote:
Some kind of eternal throne on earth for the Israelites?
Pretty shitty throne compared to what the rest of the middle east has. A bit thorny, in fact.
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SlashOZ
:D



Registered: 10/20/06
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14396260 - 05/03/11 07:27 PM (13 years, 18 days ago) |
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Zappa is right. At this point in the game you can recognize the Israel is just a bad idea to begin with but its already entrenched. There isn't anything short of all out war from the United States or China that is going to make Israel go away. Best thing we can do is be their ally, pull our troops out of the region, and tell Israel to keep shit under control and call us if they need a no fly zone or UN security council approval. Fuck I hate Israel....
-------------------- "Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose "Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS "When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi "Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson. "Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
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GazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: johnm214]
#14397969 - 05/04/11 01:27 AM (13 years, 18 days ago) |
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Israels founding was legal in the eyes of the Western world but not in the eyes of most of the people of the Middle East. There can never be a fully objective legal truth in a situation like this. To my mind, a bunch of Europeans dont really have any right to go and live in a foreign country just because some people in the past happened to believe the same religous fairy tales that they do.
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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SlashOZ
:D



Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14399311 - 05/04/11 10:42 AM (13 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
GazzBut said: Israels founding was legal in the eyes of the Western world but not in the eyes of most of the people of the Middle East. There can never be a fully objective legal truth in a situation like this. To my mind, a bunch of Europeans dont really have any right to go and live in a foreign country just because some people in the past happened to believe the same religous fairy tales that they do.
There are many different types of Jewish Zionist. Not all of them believe in the bible. Many of the leaders of the Jewish Zionist movement were not at all concerned with the old testament and instead wanted a country for their people free of persecution (see most of European, Russian, etc history of persecuting the jews).
-------------------- "Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose "Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS "When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi "Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson. "Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: GazzBut]
#14399327 - 05/04/11 10:47 AM (13 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
GazzBut said: Israels founding was legal in the eyes of the Western world but not in the eyes of most of the people of the Middle East. There can never be a fully objective legal truth in a situation like this. To my mind, a bunch of Europeans dont really have any right to go and live in a foreign country just because some people in the past happened to believe the same religous fairy tales that they do.
If the founding of Israel is illegal than the founding of every single nation in the mid-east and Europe is illegal. And they have the right to live there if the government there says they do. Every country has the right to control it's immigration policies.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: lines]
#14399407 - 05/04/11 11:10 AM (13 years, 18 days ago) |
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> Well I'm not comfortable with Israel taking my tax dollars.
It is unlikely that any of your tax money is making it to Israel. I don't like the idea of any tax money going to any foreign nation, but if they are going to give away our money, I would prefer to see it go to a friendly democratic country such as Israel rather than a shithole country that hates us, such as Pakistan.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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GazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14399685 - 05/04/11 12:16 PM (13 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
f the founding of Israel is illegal than the founding of every single nation in the mid-east and Europe is illegal.
Would you care to explain how that makes any kind of sense? And why wouldnt the founding of the US fall into the same bracket?
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And they have the right to live there if the government there says they do.
Which government are you referring to?
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: Shins]
#14399689 - 05/04/11 12:17 PM (13 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
GazzBut said: Israels founding was legal in the eyes of the Western world but not in the eyes of most of the people of the Middle East. There can never be a fully objective legal truth in a situation like this. To my mind, a bunch of Europeans dont really have any right to go and live in a foreign country just because some people in the past happened to believe the same religous fairy tales that they do.
What is a "fully objective legal truth" and what does it have to do with this thread? I don't understand what your trying to express here. If your claiming there is some legal/moral argument that demonstrates Israeli shouldn't have been founded/continued, then that is the entire point of this thread and your assertion is therefore conclusory as to the topic without providing any evidence or explanation of your position.
What does whether a bunch of Europeans have or do not have the right to go an live in a foreign country have to do with anything- with or without conforming beliefs? a) that is not the question, b) you've failed to demonstrate how this argument relates to the question. It seems like your trying to argue against a very particular, alas unstated, argument for Israel's creation, but its not too helpful as this cherry-picked justification's validity is not neccesary for Israel to not be wrongly created-maintained. If your aim is not to argue against this cherry-picked agument for Israel's founding then I have no idea what its point is as you fail to identify it.
Quote:
SlashOZ said:
Quote:
GazzBut said: Israels founding was legal in the eyes of the Western world but not in the eyes of most of the people of the Middle East. There can never be a fully objective legal truth in a situation like this. To my mind, a bunch of Europeans dont really have any right to go and live in a foreign country just because some people in the past happened to believe the same religous fairy tales that they do.
There are many different types of Jewish Zionist. Not all of them believe in the bible. Many of the leaders of the Jewish Zionist movement were not at all concerned with the old testament and instead wanted a country for their people free of persecution (see most of European, Russian, etc history of persecuting the jews).
Right, there are many reasons why Israel could be wrongly created/maintained. Disproving an apparently-arbitrarily selected justification for its creation has nothing to do with the question of whetehr Israel's existance is bad. I don't understand what this has to do with anything.
Quote:
Shins said: So lets get real here, what are the real reasons for a new crusade?
The underlying reasons still elude me.
Is is sacred relics? ancient scrolls?
Or is it just religious zealotry?
Some kind of eternal throne on earth for the Israelites?
WTF are you talking about? What is all this crap? If you want to talk about crusades or made up nonsense (or 'truths' that are demonstrated by watching youtube videos or 'having an open mind') please take it somewhere else.
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GazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Was Israel's founding, its continuation, bad? or What's wrong with Israel? [Re: SlashOZ]
#14399692 - 05/04/11 12:17 PM (13 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
There are many different types of Jewish Zionist. Not all of them believe in the bible. Many of the leaders of the Jewish Zionist movement were not at all concerned with the old testament and instead wanted a country for their people free of persecution (see most of European, Russian, etc history of persecuting the jews).
So what gave them the right to up sticks and take over land that was in no way whatsoever theirs?
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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