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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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is it foolish to cling to happiness in dark times?
    #14391620 - 05/02/11 09:55 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I was just wondering about this. I've noticed an impulse among many people who are experiencing difficulty in their lives to gloss it over and to make some sort of attempt to force happiness upon themselves - even though they have little if any immediate reason to actually be happy.

While I object to outright cynicism and nihilism, could it be argued that a full embrace of darker sentiments and affects might be healthier under certain circumstances?


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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OfflineRun
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Re: is it foolish to cling to happiness in dark times? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14391640 - 05/02/11 09:59 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Hmm I think one could argue that, I think healthier would be objective so yes


--------------------
You, me, this point in existence is undeniably so unique, we take everything for granite ,life , comprehension, feelings, thought, so accustomed to understanding that we've lost the meaning of fully understanding who we are..... we are the extra terrestrial, we are the unknown, we are the mystical...


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OfflineGreenvalley
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Re: is it foolish to cling to happiness in dark times? [Re: Run]
    #14391746 - 05/02/11 10:17 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

happiness has nothing to do with outside circumstance IMO


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: is it foolish to cling to happiness in dark times? [Re: Greenvalley]
    #14391766 - 05/02/11 10:20 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Do we need a reason to be happy beyond the innate preferableness of positive emotions to negative ones?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleCups
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Re: is it foolish to cling to happiness in dark times? [Re: Run]
    #14391769 - 05/02/11 10:20 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

You certainly have to look at something to see past it.

But in the end people do what they need to get by...or they don't.  :shrug:


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OfflineLion
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Re: is it foolish to cling to happiness in dark times? [Re: Cups]
    #14394111 - 05/03/11 12:02 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
You certainly have to look at something to see past it.


Indeed, I agree with this sentiment.  However, I think there is a fine line between observing and obsessing, when it comes to negative emotions, though patterns, mental storytelling, etc.

To me, the key seems to be not to deny the state you are in, i.e. to actually examine it and not avoid it, to stay grounded in the experience of the sensations arising within you, which is like a form of meditation.  It's certainly difficult and I'm not a model for this kind of self-examining behavior and detached observation, but I think it makes negativity more manageable and positivity more authentic.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: is it foolish to cling to happiness in dark times? [Re: Lion]
    #14394488 - 05/03/11 01:35 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Life is a learning experience that we all go through differently. Everyone hopefully keeps trying to do their best while letting other people handle their lives.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: is it foolish to cling to happiness in dark times? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14395076 - 05/03/11 03:57 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

stupid? no. admirable? yes. something i wish i had more skill with myself.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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InvisibleCups
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Re: is it foolish to cling to happiness in dark times? [Re: Lion]
    #14399034 - 05/04/11 09:35 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Lion said:
Quote:

Cups said:
You certainly have to look at something to see past it.


Indeed, I agree with this sentiment.  However, I think there is a fine line between observing and obsessing, when it comes to negative emotions, though patterns, mental storytelling, etc.

To me, the key seems to be not to deny the state you are in, i.e. to actually examine it and not avoid it, to stay grounded in the experience of the sensations arising within you, which is like a form of meditation.  It's certainly difficult and I'm not a model for this kind of self-examining behavior and detached observation, but I think it makes negativity more manageable and positivity more authentic.




All this sounds reasonable and good Lion...Edison didn't invent the light bulb because he was not obsessed with it.  Buddha didn't get his insights because he pussyfooted around suffering.

Obsession give a mind that focus which makes the difference IMO.  Icelander posted a study once that showed depressed people have the best focus of any mental state. 

IMO If a person wants to understand something and live a "remarkable" life (if such a thing is possible) they have to be willing to give into obsession at the expense of everything else.


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OfflineLion
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Re: is it foolish to cling to happiness in dark times? [Re: Cups]
    #14399955 - 05/04/11 01:10 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I see what you're saying, but I disagree to an extent.  It seems to me from the story of Buddha's life that he was indeed obsessed with the nature of suffering for a long time, but that eventually he recognized this obsession as a hindering attachment, and preached a way of living which did not have much to do with obsession and much more to do with equanimity of mind.

And sure, Ben Franklin invented the light bulb, but that's not the question here.  The question has to do with happiness, and I don't know whether he, or Gandhi, or Einstein, or whatever other remarkable person we could name, was exceptionally happy.  Perhaps, perhaps not.  It certainly seems to me from what biographical details we have that many well-known inventors, political leaders, and artists led rather miserable lives.  Is it worth it for the result?  That's for each of us to decide.  It certainly isn't everyone's path.

To my mind, giving into an obsession is usually a negative thing associated with dogmatism and the end of holistic inquiry.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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InvisibledeCypher
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Posts: 56,232
Re: is it foolish to cling to happiness in dark times? [Re: Lion]
    #14401697 - 05/04/11 07:47 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Lion said:
And sure, Ben Franklin invented the light bulb




Wasn't it Edison?  :confused:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Offlinedzza
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Re: is it foolish to cling to happiness in dark times? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14401795 - 05/04/11 08:05 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I think that you are assuming too much when you suggest that people attempt to force happiness upon themselves in difficult times.  It sort of implies that happiness is something reserved for when life is going well.  But as others mentioned, happiness doesn't need to depend on external factors.  If it were foolish to cling to happiness in dark times, you would then need to ask what the dark times are.  I have never met anyone who didn't have some difficulty in some aspect of their life.  And usually by the time one obstacle is overcome, you've encountered a dozen new ones.  So if you had to wait until you had all your shit together to let yourself be happy, you'd be waiting your whole life.


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OfflineShroomerited
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Re: is it foolish to cling to happiness in dark times? [Re: dzza]
    #14403311 - 05/05/11 01:14 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I see happiness as meaning two things.
First off, a mindset. The opposite of depression.
Second off, an emotion.

I am truly happy and at peace with the world. However, I get sad and frustrated and that's NORMAL.

In dark times, I get sad. However I still am "happy" in the sense that I have that mindset.


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: is it foolish to cling to happiness in dark times? [Re: Shroomerited]
    #14403363 - 05/05/11 01:32 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomerited said:
I see happiness as meaning two things.
First off, a mindset. The opposite of depression.
Second off, an emotion.

I am truly happy and at peace with the world. However, I get sad and frustrated and that's NORMAL.

In dark times, I get sad. However I still am "happy" in the sense that I have that mindset.




pretty much how I feel about it.  when sadness sets in, the unlearned person would wonder where the happiness went, and would project the sadness into the future, making it seem like a permanent thing.  this in itself would create a feedback loop of negativity, prolonging the sadness and making it more long term.  this used to be the story of my life.  it was my way of clinging to happiness, or sadness if you will.  now when I get sad, I imagine a feel good wave that will inevitably wash my sorrows away in the not so distant future.  realization of impermanence is one good step.


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OfflineLion
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Re: is it foolish to cling to happiness in dark times? [Re: deCypher]
    #14404539 - 05/05/11 10:16 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Lion said:
And sure, Ben Franklin invented the light bulb




Wasn't it Edison?  :confused:


LOL Fuck me.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: is it foolish to cling to happiness in dark times? [Re: deCypher]
    #14427659 - 05/10/11 12:06 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Do we need a reason to be happy beyond the innate preferableness of positive emotions to negative ones?


I do..I can't feel positive emotions for no reason. I generally feel neutral until something comes along to give me a reason to feel happy. :jointsmile:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (05/10/11 12:11 AM)


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: is it foolish to cling to happiness in dark times? [Re: Poid]
    #14428706 - 05/10/11 08:03 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Same here, but what I was more asking is whether you'd be satisfied if you suddenly felt happy for no discernible reason, or would the mind need to rationalize some false explanation for your happiness in order to maintain sanity?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleCups
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Re: is it foolish to cling to happiness in dark times? [Re: deCypher]
    #14428804 - 05/10/11 08:39 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Any happiness based in a "reason" can be lost when that stimuli is gone.

IMO If it's possible to be truly happy it is to be found within the absence of a "reason".

Edited to add- Or if the reason is one that can't ever be taken away.  I won't speculate on what that reason could be.


Edited by Cups (05/10/11 08:59 AM)


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Offlinethe bizzle
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Re: is it foolish to cling to happiness in dark times? [Re: Cups]
    #14429060 - 05/10/11 09:52 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

foolish to cling to anything in dark times

dark times means everything you cling to might be wiped away
i try to look at dark times as a personal challenge and a new beginning


"though it seems like it's the ending,
it's only just beginning"


once you come to terms with the end of things, there is only new beginnings. That is a source of happiness,
but it is not clinging to your former idea/dream of happiness


you think I could cling to change?
it kinda frightens me sometimes, but fuck it. It's only another challenge.
I live for the challenge, as much as it intimidates me



it feels good man, the relief of being so broke that the darkest of times cannot break you any further



:aweoverdose:



"every terrible thing is a relief....even months on end buried in grief"


--------------------
MY HAIR IS A BIRD 
YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID



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InvisiblePoid
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Re: is it foolish to cling to happiness in dark times? [Re: deCypher]
    #14430186 - 05/10/11 02:50 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Same here, but what I was more asking is whether you'd be satisfied if you suddenly felt happy for no discernible reason, or would the mind need to rationalize some false explanation for your happiness in order to maintain sanity?


I think I might be satisfied with being happy for no reason, but that's never happened to me so I don't know if my mind would need to rationalize some false explanation for my happiness in order to maintain sanity..I would like to think that I'd be able to maintain that feeling of happiness without needing to over-analyze/rationalize it.



Quote:

Cups said:
IMO If it's possible to be truly happy it is to be found within the absence of a "reason".


What do you base this opinion on?


Quote:

Cups said:
Or if the reason is one that can't ever be taken away.  I won't speculate on what that reason could be.


Why?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleCups
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Re: is it foolish to cling to happiness in dark times? [Re: the bizzle]
    #14430851 - 05/10/11 05:16 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

1st you say
Quote:

the bizzle said:
foolish to cling to anything in dark times




then you say

Quote:

the bizzle said:i try to look at dark times as a personal challenge and a new beginning




then you say

Quote:

the bizzle said:you think I could cling to change?




This whole approach is still clinging to an idea Bizzle.  Instead of the idea of happiness like the OP said you're going for lessons and the like.  Better idea, but still a lifeboat IMO.

Quote:

the bizzle said:it kinda frightens me sometimes, but fuck it. It's only another challenge.
I live for the challenge, as much as it intimidates me





Well I like that bro.  I've got my own thing I'm living for ATM...but my goal is to reach an equilibrium where I no longer need a reason.


--------------------
What's up everybody?!


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InvisibleCups
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Re: is it foolish to cling to happiness in dark times? [Re: Cups]
    #14431022 - 05/10/11 05:52 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Cups said:
IMO If it's possible to be truly happy it is to be found within the absence of a "reason".


What do you base this opinion on?




Because otherwise it's a temporary state, an emotional high triggered by some stimuli then it ends.

Just as a heavy trip doesn't make you enlightened laughing during a movie doesn't make you a happy person.


Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Cups said:
Or if the reason is one that can't ever be taken away.  I won't speculate on what that reason could be.


Why?




I don't know what it is...but I'm looking for it dude. :psychsplit:


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What's up everybody?!


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: is it foolish to cling to happiness in dark times? [Re: Cups]
    #14431064 - 05/10/11 05:58 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Cups said:
IMO If it's possible to be truly happy it is to be found within the absence of a "reason".


What do you base this opinion on?




Because otherwise it's a temporary state, an emotional high triggered by some stimuli then it ends.


So what?


Quote:

Cups said:
Just as a heavy trip doesn't make you enlightened laughing during a movie doesn't make you a happy person.


So? Why does this make you believe that one can be "truly happy" in the absence of a reason? What do you mean by "truly happy"?


Quote:

Cups said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Cups said:
Or if the reason is one that can't ever be taken away.  I won't speculate on what that reason could be.


Why?




I don't know what it is...but I'm looking for it dude. :psychsplit:


You're looking for something that probably doesn't exist? Why? :undecided:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleCups
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Re: is it foolish to cling to happiness in dark times? [Re: Poid]
    #14431125 - 05/10/11 06:08 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
You're looking for something that probably doesn't exist? Why? :undecided:




Cause it's my deal bro.  :shrug:


As for your other questions I'll PM you later.


--------------------
What's up everybody?!


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Offlinethe bizzle
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Re: is it foolish to cling to happiness in dark times? [Re: Cups]
    #14431307 - 05/10/11 06:54 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:

This whole approach is still clinging to an idea Bizzle.  Instead of the idea of happiness like the OP said you're going for lessons and the like.  Better idea, but still a lifeboat IMO.

Quote:

the bizzle said:it kinda frightens me sometimes, but fuck it. It's only another challenge.
I live for the challenge, as much as it intimidates me





Well I like that bro.  I've got my own thing I'm living for ATM...but my goal is to reach an equilibrium where I no longer need a reason.





a reason?  I don't even know what you're talking about. I might say a lot of shit but all in all I try not to think so much, and try not to take it too seriously

you say I'm clinging to an idea but I don't even remember what the idea is.

The shit I say is less about the specific words and its more just to trigger feelings that may help a few people deal with roughness. Plus it doesn't always come out quite like I mean it.



You ever hear the expression "the devil is in the details"??


not to mention, a challenge is not a reason, it's just what you have to deal with regardless of whether you want to or not, and sometimes that either makes or breaks you.

I try to take it as it comes,
and I definitely don't have a definite idea of the world; it changes within minutes

and for that "reason", that's why I'm trying to say it's good and happier to be able to accept change.



"if we could just die a little

everything could be alive

where your lost blooms have gone, nobody knows

where I lie, ain't no flower gonna grow"


--------------------
MY HAIR IS A BIRD 
YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID



Edited by the bizzle (05/10/11 06:55 PM)


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Offlinethe bizzle
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Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
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Re: is it foolish to cling to happiness in dark times? [Re: the bizzle]
    #14431361 - 05/10/11 07:07 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I just got told to expect 15 ft of water from the ground I stand on...and I'm chillin'. I'm happy.

my home is beautiful and like paradise to me, so this news should devastate me, but really it's just pretty miraculous to me that anything exists at all.

:shrug:

"it is what it is" as "they say"


--------------------
MY HAIR IS A BIRD 
YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID



Edited by the bizzle (05/10/11 07:07 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: is it foolish to cling to happiness in dark times? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14450049 - 05/14/11 08:30 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I have stopped resenting HOMEOSTASIS.

including emotional homeostasis,
which is what I believe you are talking about.

i.e. it is not a crime to be a creature with homeostatic tropisms,
but as humans we do need to find and apply moral integrity above this organic level of living between extremes (avoiding pain and moving to pleasure).

that means working with it, not detesting it outright.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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