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InvisibleThe Whale

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The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action
    #14390550 - 05/02/11 06:57 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

His main point here is that psychedelics do not imbue genuine spiritual experiences, but rather catalyze something already inherent in the person (assuming they are that "type" of person to begin with). This article dismisses all of the mystical claims of neoshamanism and is highly critical of psychedelic gurus like McKenna. What say you folks?

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The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action

By James Kent

Overview: Psychedelic Drugs and Mysticism

Since the dawn of time humans have ascribed mystical properties to those things they do not fully understand. In ancient times as to this day, humans worshipped the sun, the earth, the moon, the stars, the plants, animals, and a pantheon of invisible all-powerful deities. Yet as the mortal powers of science have scrutinized the material world it has become clearer and clearer that spirits forces have little to do with workings of our reality. From the quantum scale to the furthest reaches of space we have found no room for pixies, demons or demigods, and this is widely accepted to be true within every modern field of scientific research save for one: Psychedelics.

Psychedelics are an interesting case study in mysticism for two very simple reasons: they produce mystical experiences and have a long history of traditional ritual use in order to produce mystical experiences. Because these substances are mystically effective and come pre-loaded with archetypal spiritual dogma, they can effectively be passed from generation to generation as secret keys to unlocking mystical experience. In modern times Gordon Wasson, Timothy Leary, and Terence McKenna all sold the notion of mushrooms, LSD, and DMT as gateways to hidden spirit knowledge, higher consciousness, and higher dimensions. For many modern psychedelic users the entheogenic or mystical context is the primary context in which they seek these drugs, and many hope to find a full-blown religious experiences awaiting them on the other side. And, in truth, many of them are not disappointed.

It is somewhat fashionable in the psychedelic community to use the term “entheogen” to describe all psychedelics and intoxicating plants, even though psychedelic substances are just as likely to produce delusional paranoia as divine awakenings. And while psychedelics can reliably produce mystical mind states – including communion with spirits, aliens, elves, and gods – I assert that it is naive and dangerous to use the content of the psychedelic experience as the basis for wider spiritual belief. In the U.S.A. we have a constitution which protects religious belief, so it is understandable why psychedelic enthusiasts rush to promote psychedelics as a religious endeavor to legitimize their use. Similar to those who would explore the medical use of psychedelics, the spiritual approach is always one of the first places an enthusiast will go in order to retain some credibility in the light of prohibition, and it is perfectly reasonable. But do we really have to believe it?

As someone who has explored psychedelics for some time with the full intent to verify these spiritual claims, I must say I have come up with few reasons to believe the mythology of the psychedelic spirit world any longer. Although psychedelics can produce spiritual experiences, and can have bona-fide therapeutic effects, I have found very little which would lead me to believe that spirit entities from autonomous spirit worlds are responsible for the informational content or healing powers of these experiences. And with that in mind, I now present my best case against this notion of psychedelic spirit worlds and spirit teachers, and why it can be dangerous to blithely conflate psychedelics and spirituality.

The Rational Argument

1. Psychedelics are hallucinogenic drugs, which by definition means they make you see things that aren’t real. Whatever other argument I present here, this is the one you must always come back to. Some hallucinations, particularly those that are spiritual in nature, feel very real. But the same drug that can make you see spirits can make you see demons, memories, mandalas, mundane scenes from everyday life, and just about anything you can think of (and many things you can’t). However, no matter how real or bizarre or lifelike or spiritual the experience, it all fades back to dust when the drug wears off; the pocket holographic universe in your mind folds back into 3-D space and the dream is over. Let it go.

2. Psychedelics are about the self; they are a form of self-exploration. You get out of the experience what you put into the experience. If you have a spiritual experience it is because you are a spiritual person or at a spiritual place in your thinking; if you have a bad experience it is because you are at a bad place in your life or are being destructive or negative in your thinking. You would not blame the gods for a bad trip or even a mediocre trip with no mystical fireworks, so why would you give them credit for the good ones? In other words, you are not an empty vessel passively receiving the mystical experience, you are the biological organism  that is producing it.

3. Simply because you heard voices or saw gods or met elves does not mean that the experience has any deeper meaning beyond your own imagination. It is much easier to prove the case for delusional psychosis than it is to invoke an entire spirit world to explain your personal insights, so why make the spirit leap just because it “felt real” at the time. Dreams also feel real, but we tend to dismiss them because they are weirdly surreal, easy to forget, and we are sleeping at the time. We should have the same kind of removed perspective for our psychedelic experiences as well. We can use the content of the experience to see what it tells us about ourselves, but should not blindly rush to believe everything that comes out.

The Physical Argument

1. The human brain perceives reality on a very narrow spectrum of visible light and audible sound waves, this is how external information enters into waking thought. The human brain is a biological device, and in order to “see” something there must be electrochemical stimulation in the visual cortex. If you are making the case for spirit beings or invisible landscapes that can only be seen under the influence of psychedelics, you are making a case for the human brain being a kind of radio that can detect “spirit energy” that no other camera or mechanical energy-sensing device can perceive. While this is an interesting argument, it makes no sense. If there is a spirit energy out there that the human brain can perceive, other more sensitive devices should be able to perceive this spirit energy as well, yet none exist. Invoking the clause of “only I can see it (when I’m on drugs)” makes the claims of psychonauts all the more far-fetched, and when you ascribe spirit powers to visions produced by a chemical that naturally bonds to receptors in your visual cortex, it demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of how neurochemical stimulation of the neocortex results in perception. The visions are from the psychoactive molecule exciting neural activity within your brain, not from spirits emitting external waves on a higher-dimensional frequency that only you can perceive.

2. If there are autonomous spirits and a spirit world that the human mind can perceive, then these spirit formations must be made out of something. In order to morph and cohere and reflect light and create sound vibrations that the retina or cortex or neural network can perceive, these entities have to have some substrate in which to exist. Without resorting to alternate dimensions or dark matter which exist within the brain or within the psychedelic molecules themselves, the average psychonaut has no answer as to what it is the spirit world may be made out of or where we might find it. Some may try to invoke higher vibrations or alternate dimensions, but all of this speculation requires a mystical gateway to information in a spirit realm, and neither gateway nor information nor realm has any physical fingerprint in hard reality other than the firing of neurons in a brain. Attempting to externalize psychedelic visions into a spiritual framework only creates more questions than it answers, when all that is needed to produce psychedelic visions is a human neural network and a pinch of selective seratonin agonists.

The Psychosis Argument

1. While there has been no satisfactory objective proof demonstrating that a spirit world exists, there has been an abundance of proof demonstrating that psychosis exists, and that the human mind is perfectly capable of fabricating detailed alternate realities without the aid of drugs or spirits. There have been many models of psychosis offered, including the dopamine model of psychosis and the cholinergic model of mediating waking/dreaming states. Hallucinations, mystical experience, and delusions of grandeur are par for the course with psychosis – as is paranoia and irrational belief – yet many people who use psychedelics spiritually or recreationally are not fond of using the term “acute psychosis” to describe the effects, though this description clearly fits in high dose cases.

2. While psychedelics may give some people insights and an expanded consciousness, they can also lead to irrational behavior and the degradation of reason. In very simple terms, there is a psychedelic use threshold that eventually leads to mental irrationality in the user. It is unknown what this precise threshold is, and it is probably different for every person, but chronic use of high-dose psychedelics can either exacerbate existing psychotic tendencies or lead to other forms of mental irrationality, such as self-professed clairvoyance or telepathic contact with aliens, spirits, deities, and the like. Are these long-term effects best termed spiritual enlightenment or chronic recurrent delusional psychosis?

The Validation Argument

1. If we are to throw out all the arguments posed so far and concede for a moment that psychedelics offer some access to the wisdom of the spirits, there are still a few problems. In order to prove the autonomy of the spirits encountered on a psychedelic trip, various tests have been proposed to see if new information can be gleaned in the spirit dimension. According to traditional lore, shamen are able to use psychedelics to diagnose and cure disease, divine the use of plants, find missing objects, and perhaps even see the future. These all seem like very magical and mystical things when posed in that context, but if you take into account that human beings can do all of those things already, without the aide of psychedelic drugs, then you start to see how flimsy the whole spirit-knowledge thing becomes. There are a few famous reported cases of people making amazing discoveries with the aid of psychedelics, but the people who make these discoveries are usually brilliant to begin with. It would be one thing if history was filled with tales of Navaho wizards finding the secret cure for smallpox, Mayan wizards finding the secret formula for gunpowder, Or Amazonian wizards finding the magical power to save the rainforests, but we know the opposite is true. When faced with real hard-world technology, the sacred wisdom offered by the psychedelic spirit realm shows its painful limitations.

2. If information is actually received from the spirit world during the psychedelic session, then it has become patently obvious that much of the information from the spirit world is not to be trusted. Even traditional shaman warn of trickery and deceit from the spirit realm, so what good is their data? One would assume that if you were to commune with actual spirits that they wouldn’t steer you wrong, but often they do. So what are we to make of their purpose, and why would we place such importance on their knowledge? Clinging to the spirit delusion forces one to adopt paradoxical conclusions such as “Spirit entities exist, but they confound and play tricks in order to make it impossible to objectively test their data and thus prove their own existence.” As far-fetched as this statement may seem, many people willingly ignore all the other evidence and swallow such spirit logic as long as it allows them to retain the belief in these entities. The other option, which is “Perhaps I just imagined it all while high on drugs,” seems overly simple in comparison, and yet the simplest answer is usually the correct one.

The Dangerous Argument

1. If psychedelics are considered to be spiritual, and spiritual is good, then it should be good and spiritual to do as many psychedelics as we want. This may sound right on paper, but it is hardly a guarantee in the real world. People who approach psychedelics with a spiritual attitude may be less likely to abuse them, but others may cloak rampant abuse in spiritual terms to make their destructive behavior seem more legitimate. And even those who are spiritually rigorous and limit their use still run the risk of becoming occult, messianic, megalomaniacal, and delusional in their larger spiritual beliefs. While the usual result of this process is merely a spiritual quirkiness or New Age eccentricity, it is not unheard of for these initial quirky beliefs to turn dark, experimentally risqué, and antisocial after prolonged use. There is a line that must be watched here, the spiritual argument does not hold for all personal use models.

2. The greatest untold secret of religion is that the shaman (priests) invented spirits and the spirit world in order to gain power within the tribe. Yes, it sounds cynical, but it is the truth. Think about those who invoke spirits to back up their edicts and see what you think. Invoking spirits give legitimacy to the shaman’s decrees. If the shaman thinks the tribe should move down-river he tells the tribes that the spirits want the tribe to move down river, and that they will be angered if they don’t comply. It is easy to argue with a shaman, it is harder to argue with the spirits. Since the shaman is the tribe’s mediator to the spirit world, the power to intoxicate the tribe and give them spiritual visions only enhances the shaman’s power and ability to influence the tribe by spiritual deception. With tribe members of lesser intelligence a clever shaman can have them thinking and believing whatever he tells them, and this is as true today as it was ten thousand years ago.

3. If psychedelic spiritual practice is to be rigorously imposed it must be done so in the framework of institutionalized, organized religion. The traditional shamanic model is a blend of paganism, animism, and pantheism, and it has been demonstrated by syncretic offshoots like Santo Daime that these traditional religious practices can be further blended with the practices of Christianity, Catholicism, and Buddhism to some degree of success. However, for every successful syncretic church there lies the risk of rogue cults or cult leaders who use the trappings of syncretic rituals as venues for sexual exploitation, antisocial programming, and cult brainwashing. The oversight in organized psychedelic churches must be just as rigorous if not more so than in mainstream churches; the potential for abuse of power is simply too high for this trend to go unchecked. In smaller psychedelic cults there is no oversight for spiritual abuse, so this document is their oversight. Don’t believe psychedelic gurus.

What to Believe about Psychedelics?

While I would say that the evidence against psychedelics as a gateway to the spirit world is overwhelming, there are many who still hold out the hope or belief that this is a viable theory. It is my assertion that people who have spiritual experiences on psychedelics have merely awakened a spiritual aspect within themselves by entering into the experience with a spiritual mind-set. The content of any psychedelic trip is typically the result of the context in which the substance is ingested and the spiritual or entheogenic trip is merely one of many possible results. Within the proper sacred ritual setting, the ingestion of a psychedelic will result in a bona-fide mystical experience and this is something we should not forget. Within this entheogenic experience the user may hear voices; see spirits and disincarnate entities; feel the presence of God or Gaia or the other; or perhaps have an astral journey where they leave their body and travel through time, to alternate dimensions, or across the barrier of life and death and into the spirit world. These are all what we would expect from a decent and fulfilling mystical experience, and it is true that psychedelics can, in the right conditions, deliver these experiences with far greater ease than any other technique known to humans. This fact is almost indisputable at this point.

The psychedelic experience is very sacred and awe-inspiring, so it seems logical that any information revealed within the experience should be considered divine in origin; all-important. And yet, when the all-important message from the spirit-journey is eventually remembered or filtered down or revealed in a sober mind-state, it is often riddle-like and vague, or something that seemed important at the time but is in reality quite mundane, or something that is fascinating or meaningful only to the subject who received the epiphany, or flat obvious to everyone else in hindsight. This muddled-message syndrome can leave the subject feeling depressed and isolated for days after any full-blown mystical psychedelic contact. Like an alien abduction, the experience is so strange and absurd and startling and crazy that people may feel unable to talk about their experiences in any meaningful way without making loved-ones worry about their sanity. It can be elating and devastating at the same instant, so how does one integrate such experiences back into the mundane doings of hard reality?

When this feeling of spiritual isolation turns outward it leads to art and story and perhaps even mythology, turning the psychedelic experience into a metaphoric icon that can be shared with others. When this isolation turns inward it becomes occult philosophy and metaphysical belief that weaves itself like a circle into pseudo-religious dogmatic forms. The cyclical path between these two outward and inward extremes should be familiar to anyone who experiments seriously with psychedelic drugs. People who use psychedelics for any length of time will also experiment with visual art, music, the manipulation of language, and the creation of occult belief systems. This ongoing process of turning entheogenic experience into shared cultural form only serves to strengthen and enlarge the archetype of the invisible landscape we think of as the “psychedelic space”. Where there was one only plant-spirits, jaguars, snakes, icaros and santitios, now there are machine elves, hyperspatial aliens, wicked jesters, trance music, and even Elvis, Mickey Mouse, Jesus, Mary, Buddha, Yahweh, and all the old-world Hindu deities along for the ride. Hence, the spirit world is not a fixed autonomous space, it is a epiphenomenona of our own cultural imagination which grows and shrinks in proportion with our own subjective cultural awareness. The psychedelic space is not autonomous, it is a reflection of who we are.

Conclusion

There is no doubt that there is a fundamental connection between spiritual experience and belief in a spirit world, and the more powerful the spiritual experience the more powerful the belief; this is an easy assumption to make. Since psychedelics offer such powerful spiritual experiences, it is easy to see why people view psychedelics as spiritual objects and craft elaborate rituals and mythologies regarding their use and purpose. This is a very natural human thing to do, and in many ways it is easier to invoke spirits and a spirit world than it is to believe that your brain is capable of such profound experiences.

But we must not lose sight of the fact that the human imagination allows for the infinite exploration of all possible forms, a feat which is mystical and godlike in its own capacity. By activating the human imagination in such a dramatic way, psychedelics give us raw access to that infinite well of godlike creation. When we designate psychedelic content as spiritual in origin we dismiss the wondrous capacity of the human imagination, simultaneously denigrating our own creative capacities and undermining all testable reason. It must stop.

And thus I say that we as a culture should abandon this notion of a psychedelic theology once and for all, and reject the claims of any expert or shaman or guru who claims intimate access to sacred psychedelic spirits, spirit realms, or mystical secrets. Instead of pondering over spirit dimensions and non-physical entities we should stay focused on the miracle of the human mind and the human body, and the notion that psychedelics can unlock the self-reflective power of the mind to produce infinite permutations of complex forms, for good or for bad, mystical or mundane. This is their true function and their gift, and we should not lose sight of that simple power.


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Edited by The Whale (05/03/11 05:29 PM)


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OfflineAnthony917
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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: The Whale]
    #14390569 - 05/02/11 07:02 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

that's really fucking long, so I'm posting to remind myself to read it when I'm not really stoned


--------------------
Prisoner#1 said: I got my ass kicked by a 9yo when I was 17
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OfflineNewbieS
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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action (moved) [Re: The Whale]
    #14390601 - 05/02/11 07:11 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

This thread was moved from The Pub.

Reason:
Better suited here.


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OfflineShroomXolomilco
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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: Anthony917]
    #14390652 - 05/02/11 07:21 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Read the whole thing.  Interesting read.

I, for one, use psychedelics primarily to have a spiritual experience.  But by saying spiritual experience, I mean many things:

- becoming at peace with myself
- becoming at peace with the world
- astral projecting (my favorite... I've only had a couple of these)
- to show others what else this life has to offer

I don't try to talk to God or elves or any of that kind of stuff. I'm a very religious person outside of psychedelics.  I feel like if I want to talk to God that that would best be done while not under the influence of a drug.

I think that the user can use psychedelics for whatever reason they want, as long as it is in a safe and smart manner. 

Life is what you make it.


Edited by ShroomXolomilco (05/02/11 07:25 PM)


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OfflineGreenvalley
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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action (moved) [Re: Newbie]
    #14390663 - 05/02/11 07:22 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I read about three quarters of it. I felt like whenever he was arguing for the person who uses psychedelics in a 'spiritual' context, he made them seem like a complete idiot who thinks they actually see elvs and worship the sun.


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OfflineDesertedAnt
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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: ShroomXolomilco]
    #14390748 - 05/02/11 07:38 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Great read Whale.

Would you be for, or against a pyschedelic church then?

A safe haven for those who wanted to experience the mystique of imagination and spirituality throught the means of mind altering substances.


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Did you ever wonder if the person in the puddle is real, and you're just a reflection of him?
~Calvin and Hobbes


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Offlinenoobieman
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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: DesertedAnt]
    #14390938 - 05/02/11 08:09 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The epistemological challenges involved in this discussion make an analysis impossible. Any attempt at logical conclusion is laughable. For anyone.

To address your particular angle...one cannot use psychedelics to verify anything "spiritual." It's like using a wrench to verify the literary value of Shakespeare. The problem is semantic, for spirituality is, as you allude, subjective. So what is it exactly one would even to attempt to verify?

"The existence of non corporeal entitities interacting with human consciousness via some hallucinogen," one might say. OK...but what if my spiritual belief is that consciousness is a shared construct, and that no such thing as separateness actually exists? What if the meatsuit we walk around in only makes separateness seem real? At that point there are no entities, there is only a "we." Then the argument that my psychedelic experiences are some extension of my own consciousness loses coherence. Because so would everything in Reality be. And perhaps psychedelics only allow me to briefly connect with truths otherwise shielded from me by my current physicality.

This is only an example of the quandaries you face extricating semantic notions of spirituality and consciousness. Others are even more convoluted and abstract. The metaphor of frequencies, with our brains tuning into everything from our deep subconscious to non corporeal sentient shadows of Alpha Centauri, to transdimensional (spiritual) godlike beings...how could one hope to "verify" anything?

All one can do is set up the simpler ideas and knock them down...I'm sorry but the possibilities exceed human processing capacity. And even if a godlike being did tell you the absolute truth, how would you know?


Edited by noobieman (05/02/11 08:12 PM)


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InvisibleThe Whale

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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: DesertedAnt]
    #14390959 - 05/02/11 08:13 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I don't think you need a church for that. A "church" of anything usually implies a doctrine or ideology, and psychedelics seem to be the anti-thesis of doctrine.


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OfflineLed Zeppelin
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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: The Whale]
    #14391542 - 05/02/11 09:44 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I agree with this article. Its pretty obvious these drugs don't take you to spiritual dimensions but instead take you to new dimensions in your brain. i still think you can learn things about yourself from psychedelics though


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Offlinerhave
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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: noobieman]
    #14391976 - 05/02/11 10:57 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

noobieman said:
The epistemological challenges involved in this discussion make an analysis impossible. Any attempt at logical conclusion is laughable. For anyone.

"The existence of non corporeal entitities interacting with human consciousness via some hallucinogen," one might say. OK...but what if my spiritual belief is that consciousness is a shared construct, and that no such thing as separateness actually exists? What if the meatsuit we walk around in only makes separateness seem real? At that point there are no entities, there is only a "we." Then the argument that my psychedelic experiences are some extension of my own consciousness loses coherence. Because so would everything in Reality be. And perhaps psychedelics only allow me to briefly connect with truths otherwise shielded from me by my current physicality.

All one can do is set up the simpler ideas and knock them down...I'm sorry but the possibilities exceed human processing capacity. And even if a godlike being did tell you the absolute truth, how would you know?




One can reduce any idea to meaninglessness with a couple impossible to disprove "what if"s.  Does this mean we shouldn't try to determine if anything is valid?

I tend to agree with the author's general conclusion though not several of his arguments.  I'm an atheist though so I don't see any good reasons to believe in the existence of spirits or gods.  Actually, in my opinion smoking some DMT and seeing a god-like being is at least as good a reason to believe in the existence of a god as the Bible saying there is one.

I think i feel the same effects as someone who believes psychedelics are a link to a spirit realm, I just don't interpret those feeling as having anything to do with spirits(unless I'm drunk too).


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OfflineFlowing
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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: rhave]
    #14392453 - 05/03/11 12:37 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I use psychedelics for philosophical, psycho-therapeutic reasons.

Humans trying to learn the secrets of the universe is like dogs trying to learn algebra. Of course psychedelics won't teach you them.

We focus entirely too much on how important our souls are and how big we are when our planet is barely just an atom in an ocean.


--------------------
He believed that educated people
could make up their own minds.
His motto, as head of one of the first and
most important review panels, was great encouragement: "We're not here
to play God."


-DMT: The Spirit Molecule


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Offlinenoobieman
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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: rhave]
    #14393199 - 05/03/11 07:24 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

rhave said:
Quote:

noobieman said:
The epistemological challenges involved in this discussion make an analysis impossible. Any attempt at logical conclusion is laughable. For anyone.

<snip>

All one can do is set up the simpler ideas and knock them down...I'm sorry but the possibilities exceed human processing capacity. And even if a godlike being did tell you the absolute truth, how would you know?




One can reduce any idea to meaninglessness with a couple impossible to disprove "what if"s.  Does this mean we shouldn't try to determine if anything is valid?

I think i feel the same effects as someone who believes psychedelics are a link to a spirit realm, I just don't interpret those feeling as having anything to do with spirits(unless I'm drunk too).




I'm not throwing random ideas out to make a case for "god." I'm providing just a sample of the endlessly complex challenges that await someone who embarks upon the mission to explain Reality.

You can eliminate ideas you can comprehend, but you cannot logically pretend that doing so eliminates other possibilities. The humility to recognize one's inherent limitations is key to understanding the value of your conclusions. Among these limitations is the inevitable:  by the time you are old enough to conceptualize this stuff, you have already consumed, integrated, and employed an imperfectly stitched-together quilt of borrowed ideas to synthesize "your" own. The well is already tainted by the sloppiness of human consciousness, individually and collectively.

The goal of dissecting consciousness (let alone the Whole of Reality) goes far beyond building a better nuke or propelling a chunk of metal into space. One's personal belief system is irrelevant in proportion to their intellectual integrity.


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OfflineNunbuh_Chrubble
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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: noobieman]
    #14395122 - 05/03/11 04:08 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I think that the flaw in any spiritual view of psychedelics is that people don't understand this one simple thing:

Quote:

The psychedelic space is not autonomous




But ignoring this notion is also the critical flaw in any rational argument against spiritualism of many sorts.

If you're looking for autonomous entities, then you're setting yourself up to fail. But having a nuanced understanding of the inseparability of experience and "reality" will lead you to conclusions which are both reasonable yet also embrace the mystery.

In my own attempts to explore the alternate psychedelic dimension I've come to the conclusion that all notions of a "REAL" reality are total bullshit. And that rather we live in shared linguistic constructions and the only thing that comes close to "real" is what we can all agree on.

You look at an object and I look at that same object and we both agree on it's existence and characteristics, then it must be real. That's the criteria. You have a dream and I have a dream, and so we talk about them and agree that there are these things called "dreams" and that we often share similar kinds of dream experiences like falling, or being unable to run from a monster. You smoke some DMT and I smoke some DMT, and we recount our experiences and find similarities like elves and spirit worlds.

Asking "is it real?" is a naive and stupid question which can't be answered. Better questions to ask might be "is it useful?" or "is it helpful?" and "how so?". "What does this mean about the validity of my sober/waking experiences?" These are the kinds of questions that a matured psychonaut will ask.


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"This day is a lover..."

~Rumi


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OfflineNature Boy
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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: The Whale]
    #14395150 - 05/03/11 04:15 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The Whale said:
His main point here is that psychedelics do not imbibe genuine spiritual experiences...




Imbibe???  I stopped reading right there.  Try imbue.  When communicating in writing, words matter.

N.B.


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All submitted posts under this user name are works of pure fiction or outright lies.  Any information, statement, or assertion contained therein should be considered pure unadulterated bullshit.  Note well:  Sorry, but I do not answer PM's unless you are a long-time trusted friend.  If you have a question, ask it in the appropriate thread.

                                                                               


Edited by Nature Boy (05/03/11 04:16 PM)


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Offlinemicrodotty
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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: Nature Boy]
    #14395220 - 05/03/11 04:30 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Im gonna do an ouija board in the most haunted pub in england whilst on LSD...  then we'll see spirits!


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Invisiblemuistrue
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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: microdotty]
    #14395261 - 05/03/11 04:39 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

microdotty said:
Im gonna do an ouija board in the most haunted pub in england whilst on LSD...  then we'll see spirits!




Or at least hallucinate them. :yesnod:


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InvisibleThe Whale

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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: Nature Boy]
    #14395263 - 05/03/11 04:39 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Nature Boy said:
Quote:

The Whale said:
His main point here is that psychedelics do not imbibe genuine spiritual experiences...




Imbibe???  I stopped reading right there.  Try imbue.  When communicating in writing, words matter.

N.B.




You seem overly exuberant that you caught what was a simple mistake on my part.

Good for you.

:brilliant:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: The Whale]
    #14395396 - 05/03/11 05:04 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I have been in touch with Kent.
there is something megalomanic about him.
also he neglects the fact that we can be intelligent people and yet know almost nothing in a total way.
we frequently depend on intermediate constructs or proxies.
we intend to drive a car and so we do what we have trained ourselves to do.
but while driving a thousand things happen that never happened before and we deal with them out of will, intention and care.
will
intention and care are the essence of magic.
I am a very scientific person, but I must say that I do not know my life through science, but through my senses and my will.
I live a magical life and review everything scientifically.
while things are happening, I am in the thrall of something spiritual.
afterwards, I can be very clinical about it.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleThe Whale

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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: redgreenvines]
    #14395491 - 05/03/11 05:25 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I have been in touch with Kent.
there is something megalomanic about him.





His argument often times depends on heavily criticizing others while not giving equal credit to others whose ideas his own premises depend on. It's akin to beating away competition with a stick, but only doing so by standing on top of other people's shoulders--none of whom receive credit after you "effectively dismiss" the opposition.

Anyhoo, as is usually the case with people who become overly staunch with the scientific approach to psychedelics, Kent probably hasn't had his buttcheeks flossed by a heroic dose in a long while. The calm subtlety with which Nichols and a few others discuss these things lead me to believe their chemical vials are collecting more dust than their own amygdalas.


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Invisiblejoemolloy
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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: The Whale]
    #14395621 - 05/03/11 05:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The Whale said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I have been in touch with Kent.
there is something megalomanic about him.





His argument often times depends on heavily criticizing others while not giving equal credit to others whose ideas his own premises depend on. It's akin to beating away competition with a stick, but only doing so by standing on top of other people's shoulders--none of whom receive credit after you "effectively dismiss" the opposition.

Anyhoo, as is usually the case with people who become overly staunch with the scientific approach to psychedelics, Kent probably hasn't had his buttcheeks flossed by a heroic dose in a long while. The calm subtlety with which Nichols and a few others discuss these things lead me to believe their chemical vials are collecting more dust than their own amygdalas.




Kent is brilliant, articulate, and well reasoned.  He's been there, done that, and thought deeply about it.  Some people come to the conclusion that the whole psychedelic experience is a funny type of masturbation with no more meaning than a good old fashioned internet porn expedition that ends with a hearty orgasm.  You move on with your life, it was pretty intense and cool, but dwelling on it is retarded.  Giving it a moment of reflection or brain energy to interpret it would not lead to growth or understanding.  It would just have me obsessing over my own narcissism.

These arguments are kind of difficult because they boil down to a type of religious belief about these drugs.  They certainly feel religious, they feel like what an infusion of divinity should feel like, right?  Certainly. 

But I am still not a believer.  I am just fucked up on powerful chemicals that distort my thought processes.

We are out there, we have tripped countless times, traveled the whole spectrum of the psychedelic experience, and called bullshit on it.


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InvisibleThe Whale

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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: joemolloy] * 1
    #14395717 - 05/03/11 06:07 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

joemolloy said:
We are out there, we have tripped countless times, traveled the whole spectrum of the psychedelic experience, and called bullshit on it.




And yet nevertheless still stick around the community to make elaborate arguments? I was under the impression after something is dismissed, it is to be entirely left alone. A lot of Richard Dawkins' work, for example, would be hot air if not for the existence of his objects of contempt. For not providing growth or understanding, "haters" curiously tend to stick around their piñatas.

Kent is eloquent, surely. He also has some fascinating ideas.

I personally am under the conviction that we should be choking our gurus and idols and burning our bibles; the difference is I don't discriminate on the grounds of materialism and spirituality. That's just a simple dichotomy and polarity to toy around with. I've clocked a few hours on the court myself, and I always come back with ineffable and flabbergasted results that transcend ideology and labels. It's OK not to pigeon-hole everything -- which is what, I believe, the "spiritual" approach allows to happen: it makes room for a humble admission that (at the moment) the biggest implications from our experiences are still mysteries.


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Invisiblejoemolloy
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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: The Whale]
    #14395778 - 05/03/11 06:16 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

And yet nevertheless still stick around the community to make elaborate arguments? I was under the impression after something is dismissed, it is to be entirely left alone. A lot of Richard Dawkins' work, for example, would be hot air if not for the existence of his objects of contempt. For not providing growth or understanding, "haters" curiously tend to stick around their piñatas.




I still love draining my nuts with that magical masturbation, I know that I didn't really fuck the girl on the computer screen and that it has no real consequence in my life, but I keep going back.  Dismissing certain value doesn't dismiss all value.  Psychedelics are fun, pretty colors and all.:stoned:

Quote:

Kent is eloquent, surely. He also has some fascinating ideas.

I personally am under the conviction that we should be choking our gurus and idols and burning our bibles; the difference is I don't discriminate on the grounds of materialism and spirituality. That's just a simple dichotomy and polarity to toy around with. I've clocked a few hours on the court myself, and I always come back with ineffable and flabbergasted results that transcend ideology and labels. It's OK not to pigeon-hole everything -- which is what, I believe, the "spiritual" approach allows to happen: it makes room for a humble admission that (at the moment) the biggest implications from our experiences are still mysteries.




Cool, I understand where you are coming from.  However, I think the spiritual approach to psychedelics is knocking on the door of mental illness or riding the Highway of Weird Motherfucker.  I've ridden that road, watched others on that road and think it sucks because after a while you ain't driving anymore.  Of course your personal mileage on that road will vary.


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InvisibleThe Whale

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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: joemolloy]
    #14395854 - 05/03/11 06:26 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

joemolloy said:
I've ridden that road, watched others on that road and think it sucks because after a while you ain't driving anymore.




A colorful analogy.

Still, I would say that mental stagnation is typical not of any particular ideology, but of patterned human behavior. A tendency towards dogma occurs even in the kitchen if you believe the marinara sauce, to reach perfection, has to be bought from Fred's on Sunday evening because that's when the tomatoes are best. 

As for riding the "Highway of Weird Motherfucker" - I would say Bob down the street who watches Fox News and never deviates from the missionary position is just as weird as a burn out who thinks DMT will save humanity. I'm not resolving everything into relativism. I just think some people will interpret these substances in certain ways, depending on their disposition as a unique individual. Nick Sand wrote about this when he criticized Strassman's interpretations of his patient's consistent encounters with bizarre aliens (presumably due to their role as a patient in a hospital). 

Quote:

Psychedelics are fun, pretty colors and all.:stoned:




Honestly, I sometimes envy fellow trippers who can just get colors and "funny" ideas. I go into it shaking like a dog who knows the bath he's about to receive is going to be slightly too cold, as it always is. I get my ass handed to me on a silver platter and it's all I can do not to rip the curtains off the walls. In other words, the shit isn't fun at all, but I go back for different reasons.


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Invisiblejoemolloy
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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: The Whale]
    #14395907 - 05/03/11 06:33 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I agree with you, Whale.  I need to have consistent access to consensus reality though, it pays the bills and keeps me happy.  Psychedelics made me weird, hell man, inducing delusional states is bound to do that to a person.  Some people find value in temporary psychosis, I find it fun and exciting, but dangerous.

I was kidding about the pretty colors, my trips are intensely personal, transcendent, magical and full of shit.  No ying without the yang, right?


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Don't PM me with bullshit.  I don't sell or trade cactus and I don't know where you can get any, other than your mother's ass.


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InvisibleThe Whale

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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: joemolloy]
    #14395942 - 05/03/11 06:37 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

joemolloy said:
I agree with you, Whale.  I need to have consistent access to consensus reality though, it pays the bills and keeps me happy.  Psychedelics made me weird, hell man, inducing delusional states is bound to do that to a person.  Some people find value in temporary psychosis, I find it fun and exciting, but dangerous.

I was kidding about the pretty colors, my trips are intensely personal, transcendent, magical and full of shit.  No ying without the yang, right?




Word.

That's why it's best to jump in the pool and then get out, towel off, and join the sober luncheon with the friends and grandparents. Otherwise your fingers start to wrinkle and look all pruney.


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InvisibleAustrip
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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: joemolloy]
    #14395990 - 05/03/11 06:42 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I consider psychedelics the closest thing to having a REAL religious culture and society that we have discovered at this point in existence.
It doesn't have to be religious or spiritual in a traditional sense.

I'm really taking the words straight out of Richard Dawkins mouth and literature, but I look at the psychedelic experience similarly to how Dawkins views gods and deities.

We can all agree that something much bigger, and much more mysterious is at play here, although we still have no idea what it is, what drives it, where it exists, what its made of, ect.
But through my use of pyschedelics that much I am sure, that there is some kind of divine force that exists far, FAR beyond my capability of understanding, and the restrictiveness of my 5 senses.

Dawkins calls it "The Einsteinian God" because of Einsteins belief not in a religious godhead, but in a mysterious force he could not begin to understand or explain that drives the mechanisms of the working parts in the Universe.

I think Psychedelics just allow us to lift the veil and peer into something raw and uncreated rather then the formed order that we use to define the universe as human beings.
and too me at least, the psychedelic experience is just as real in every sense as my life experience, it was just another way I saw things for a brief moment in time.


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Invisiblejoemolloy
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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: Austrip]
    #14396058 - 05/03/11 06:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


I think Psychedelics just allow us to lift the veil and peer into something raw and uncreated rather then the formed order that we use to define the universe as human beings.
and too me at least, the psychedelic experience is just as real in every sense as my life experience, it was just another way I saw things for a brief moment in time.




It's this type of thinking that is so damn seductive and dangerous.  Every trip I'd get closer and closer to it, unraveling another layer.  It's fucking intoxicating and empowering and intellectually stimulating, right?  You'll know the riddle of the sphinx, the meaning of it all.  Hell, you can become fucking God!  Why stop?  You're discovering your true nature, the real you.  You're seeing outside of time, the inner workings of time, and everything else there is to experience.  Can it be addictive and habit forming?  You won't suck dick for it, but that doesn't answer my question.

Start finding the existential answers you seek from psychedelics and then it gets dangerous.

There are no answers or even hints or clues to the questions.  Psychedelics just scramble these fucking eggs up and add purple-pink cum to make them taste good.  But you just ate your own spooge.


--------------------
Don't PM me with bullshit.  I don't sell or trade cactus and I don't know where you can get any, other than your mother's ass.


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OfflineThePhilosophizer
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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: Austrip]
    #14396085 - 05/03/11 06:58 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I find it a little funny that many actual dedicated spiritual people hold the same view that psychedelics are not the road to enlightenment and just produce an illusion of a spiritual experience. Honestly, I don't see why it matters. I know these states might be illusory, but I still enjoy that divine feeling, even if its just an illusion. Masturbation is always fun, spiritual masturbation is no different :grin:

As far as insights from these experiences, I'd say it's like any other experience. It's not the experience itself that made a positive difference, it's your interpretation of it and your choice to make a difference in your life. But that has nothing to do with any drug, but everything to do with personal choice. You are capable of changing your life right now without the aid of any drugs. Just because you saw something you've been neglecting because of a drug, doesn't mean that it wasn't 100% your decision to do something about it. But to get caught up in it and assume that all answers and problems will be solved by these substances is madness, in my opinion. If you really want change, you'll make change the moment you figure out what's keeping you back, be it through a drug experience or a car accident that makes you realize that you indeed are mortal and gets you to appreciate life a little more. If you don't want change, doesn't matter how many times you trip and have these 'realizations', you'll remain the same person you were, probably just weirder and spacier.


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:pinkshroom:  :regularshroom:  :mushroomgrow: :greenshroom: :stinkyshroom: :scaryshroom: :mushdance: :dancingshroom: :cubie:  :mushroom2:  :supershroom:      :muahaha:

<<<<<<<<---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->>>>>>>>

A game without challenges is boring. It is possible to live a happy optimistic life without being in denial about all the shit that goes on all around.
You just gotta get up and dance with the fire instead of moping about it. Be thankful for your problems.
Without them, your life would be a fucking bore.
But don't make it all about the problems. There are magnificent wonders in this world worth living for :wink:


Edited by ThePhilosophizer (05/03/11 07:02 PM)


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InvisibleAustrip
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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: joemolloy]
    #14396103 - 05/03/11 07:02 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

joemolloy said:
Quote:


I think Psychedelics just allow us to lift the veil and peer into something raw and uncreated rather then the formed order that we use to define the universe as human beings.
and too me at least, the psychedelic experience is just as real in every sense as my life experience, it was just another way I saw things for a brief moment in time.




It's this type of thinking that is so damn seductive and dangerous.  Every trip I'd get closer and closer to it, unraveling another layer.  It's fucking intoxicating and empowering and intellectually stimulating, right?  You'll know the riddle of the sphinx, the meaning of it all.  Hell, you can become fucking God!  Why stop?  You're discovering your true nature, the real you.  You're seeing outside of time, the inner workings of time, and everything else there is to experience.  Can it be addictive and habit forming?  You won't suck dick for it, but that doesn't answer my question.

Start finding the existential answers you seek from psychedelics and then it gets dangerous.

There are no answers or even hints or clues to the questions.  Psychedelics just scramble these fucking eggs up and add purple-pink cum to make them taste good.  But you just ate your own spooge.




I understand exactly what you mean, as I spent most of my teenage years doing just that.

But I feel like I know some of the answer to that riddle now, at least inside myself I do, it's that life is beautiful and should be appreciated, I should be nicer to people just because, and death isn't so bad. That kind of thing. 
It's definitely not that spinning fractal colors in the sky point to some kind of divine miracle in life, you kind of have to "read between the lines" with the psychedelic experience. Even the answers are wrapped up in another mystery.

I really have found alot of answers, I still have a few questions of course, but theres always another question to ask about the infiniteness of life.

I agree 100% there are always more questions, but for me there was lots of answers as well, albeit personal ones instead of answers that help all of man, but answers none the less.


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OfflineNature Boy
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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: Austrip]
    #14396523 - 05/03/11 08:08 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Man, this thread (and a bunch more like it that have cropped up on this forum lately) is just a bunch of psychobabble claptrap wasting people's time and straining "principles" trying to get one or the other maneuvered into a best fit.

When is someone (other than JoeMalloy) going to step up and confess:  "I like (insert drug) because it gets me altered in a way that I can choose to interpret as (insert adjective of choice) - Example: "spiritual", "religious" or simply "entertaining".

Before you go off on me (asbestos undies donned) please be advised I have no particular preference for which adjective you choose!  Think of the psychedelic state / experience what you will.  Its all good.  Nobody knows the "right" answer...because there are only opinions and perceptions to deal with, and they are all, by their very nature (just look at the myriad of descriptions of experiences!) SUBJECTIVE.

There is NO objective "truth" to the meaning of any aspect of life, let alone the confusing conundrum of life spent with one foot in consensual reality, and the other foot immersed from time to time in the psychedelic state.  Trust me, there is NO DEFINITIVE CONCLUSION to draw on the meaning of EITHER state...not now, and probably not ever.  I know its tough to hear and it sucks because we're all "seekers"...but your quest is futile and beyond our ability as mere humans to cognize.

Why not just stop asking "why" and just enjoy your substance of choice for what it does bring you in a measurable way.  Example:  Smoking pot and sex with my wife ROCKS!  Vaporizing DMT is exhilarating and pretty.  Alcohol gives me license to pat a pretty young thing on her tight little ass.

N.B.


--------------------
All submitted posts under this user name are works of pure fiction or outright lies.  Any information, statement, or assertion contained therein should be considered pure unadulterated bullshit.  Note well:  Sorry, but I do not answer PM's unless you are a long-time trusted friend.  If you have a question, ask it in the appropriate thread.

                                                                               


Edited by Nature Boy (05/03/11 08:13 PM)


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Offlinenoobieman
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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: Austrip]
    #14396536 - 05/03/11 08:10 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I can't speak to the "psychedelic spooge of spirituality" argument.

Instead for me it's a matter of insight. If the insight I gain enables my mind to work better in some way, then I've gained something. If the experience provides something that is applicable in the "real" world, then it has utility.

And if I choose to call some of those gains "spiritual," then good for me.


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InvisibleAustrip
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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: noobieman]
    #14396625 - 05/03/11 08:28 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Why not just stop asking "why" and just enjoy your substance of choice for what it does bring you in a measurable way.  Example:  Smoking pot and sex with my wife ROCKS!  Vaporizing DMT is exhilarating and pretty.  Alcohol gives me license to pat a pretty young thing on her tight little ass.




Because for some the WHY question of it all is the most confusing, wonderful, exhilarating, psychedelic and most beautiful aspect of it all.

I'm at complete peace knowing that I'll never fully understand the psychedelic experience, but I'm sure as hell going to do my best to try with the short amount of time I have on earth. I have an eternity after death to bask in the lights and fractal patterns, but I only get a short span of time to actually question my existence before I descend back into it.

Quote:

When is someone (other than JoeMalloy) going to step up and confess:  "I like (insert drug) because it gets me altered in a way that I can choose to interpret as (insert adjective of choice) - Example: "spiritual", "religious" or simply "entertaining".




I like psychedelics because they put me in touch with something long forgotten, and completely unknown at the same time. I don't think theres an adjective in any language that describes what I get from it.


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Offlinenoobieman
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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: Nature Boy] * 1
    #14396626 - 05/03/11 08:28 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Nature Boy said:
Man, this thread (and a bunch more like it that have cropped up on this forum lately) is just a bunch of psychobabble claptrap wasting people's time and straining "principles" trying to get one or the other maneuvered into a best fit.

When is someone (other than JoeMalloy) going to step up and confess:  "I like (insert drug) because it gets me altered in a way that I can choose to interpret as (insert adjective of choice) - Example: "spiritual", "religious" or simply "entertaining".




Some people actually enjoy talking about philosophical things. And if they incorporate psychedelics into that discussion, why does that have to be assaulted?

We are not all the same. Some of us do things for reasons you might not "get." The reductionist argument that everything is a form of masturbation applies to virtually all choice, so it is neither informative nor persuasive. I get off on cherios? Give me a break, I like my preformed organic molecules palatable, yes, but mostly I eat to survive.

Likewise i enjoy hallucinogens but mainly my brain requires new and interesting material. Challenging material. Its part of my identity to seek new experiences, patterns and possibilities. To munch on difficult experiences. It's mental health that drives me. Its not always a fun masturbatory experience, either. But that's who I am. Just as in life I make hard choices for a living because at some point I saw that was healthier. Yes, it felt better...is everything that feels good masturbatory? Only to a pornographic mind.


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OfflineHerbalJunkie
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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: noobieman] * 1
    #14396726 - 05/03/11 08:46 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I loved the read and agree fully with Kent.

Mind you i love the psychedelic experience, and I've been one of the spiritual beings that thought that psychedelics are the key to it all..

I over-analyzed, went down the rabbit hole, became christ, nailed mysellf on the cross, and now am transcending from the crucifiction.

Whatever man, It only complicated my life, I thought I was using psychedelics very well, not for partying, not for simple 'fun'. Using them to understand, self-empowerment and creativity(which i still do)

But who am I shitting? My problem was that. Taking the psychedelic so seriously, giving it a divine element. Beleiving everything it tells me.

That shit only isolated me from the world, locked me up in my own room and wanting to stay the fuck away from humans, stressed, lost in riddles and delusional, unable to hold a job.

I can't say I didn't have a kick ass time.. or that it didn't motivate me to immerse myself in art more but in the long run it didn't improve my life.

I bullshitted myself in thinking it did. Because psychedelics are the key to flowa powa, peace and happiness and truth innit? Well it wasn't for me, and others.

I've been one of the pro-spiritual psychedelic useage. and it's divine enlightening properties.

But now i feel like a I entered a new level. I feel liberated by de-attaching myself from the 'delusional enlightening aspect' of psychedelics. I just feel more real with myself and others. No hate, I've been there, but now it's time for change cos I sure fuckin' need it!

Being stuck in the psychedelic spiritual loop is a neverending quest, with more questions to every 'answer'.

I can simply use a psychedelic just to watch cartoons and laugh my ass off so hard and have a better time than anyone trying to seek an answer to this joke.

It's just that, I stopped taking it personal and so serious. Man i just want to have a good time and take a break, not ponder things that our silly minds cannot comprehend, which probably there is no need to since it's meaningless.

But we give it meaning! A good recent example of someone taking psychedelics in a divine way is my best friend. Who beleives everything that the mushroom shows him is the ULTIMATE TRUTH. and you will be damned if you disagree. well at a point apperantly, he saw Satan in me, dark, and evil. and in no way I did any evil action to him, I was actually tellin jokes, and making my chick have a giggle with my comedic grumpyness. Well, it only took that for my friend to view me as Satan, and thats all it took to break the friendship..

I begged him to shed the light on my blinded perception, why is he seeing me like that? ''You are satan, cos the mushroom told me so..'' Isn't an intelligent feedback for me, heck if that's what mushrooms do on your brain I wonder why they call them smart drugs, but i won't blame the mushroom, i'll blame the weak mindedness of one.

Anyway this post got too long. It's late, I should pass out.

Goodnight !


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InvisibleThe Whale

Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc: Flag
Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: Nature Boy]
    #14396846 - 05/03/11 09:08 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Nature Boy said:
Man, this thread (and a bunch more like it that have cropped up on this forum lately) is just a bunch of psychobabble claptrap wasting people's time and straining "principles" trying to get one or the other maneuvered into a best fit.




I would respond to your ideas, but being the butter from which the milk was churned, they're also a "waste of time."


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InvisibleCactilove
Controversial Mystic
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 4,826
Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: The Whale]
    #14396946 - 05/03/11 09:24 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Man I'm so torn between both sides in the matter and have
so much to say I don't even want to touch this shit right now!


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Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.


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Invisiblejoemolloy
DMT is Bullshit


Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 6,525
Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: noobieman]
    #14398351 - 05/04/11 05:07 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


We are not all the same. Some of us do things for reasons you might not "get." The reductionist argument that everything is a form of masturbation applies to virtually all choice, so it is neither informative nor persuasive. I get off on cherios? Give me a break, I like my preformed organic molecules palatable, yes, but mostly I eat to survive.

Likewise i enjoy hallucinogens but mainly my brain requires new and interesting material. Challenging material. Its part of my identity to seek new experiences, patterns and possibilities. To munch on difficult experiences. It's mental health that drives me. Its not always a fun masturbatory experience, either. But that's who I am. Just as in life I make hard choices for a living because at some point I saw that was healthier. Yes, it felt better...is everything that feels good masturbatory? Only to a pornographic mind.




That's some simplistic and topical thinking.  Dig a little.

The trend with these drugs is that they are good until they stop being fun, until the masturbation turns into something less euphoric.  Then spirituality and rest of it goes out the window and its on to drugs that are more consistent with their effects.  Think of all the users from the Psychedelic forum who have graduated to the the Other Drugs discussion.  Many of them professed the power, uniqueness, and transforming nature of psychedelics - until the masturbatory effects stopped.  Many users convince themselves they are taking these drugs "for the right reasons" but I think there are a lot of deluders out there bullshitting themselves about a whole lot more than peace and love maaaaaan.  Its masturbation, dressed up in magic, and once that dress comes off, its onto the meaner, nastier drugs.

Fuck me and my presumptious generalization but I suspect (and you know) it hits the mark with damn accurate precision.

Just because we take drugs doesn't mean we have to lie to ourselves.


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Don't PM me with bullshit.  I don't sell or trade cactus and I don't know where you can get any, other than your mother's ass.


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InvisibleAustrip
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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: joemolloy]
    #14398373 - 05/04/11 05:21 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The trend with these drugs is that they are good until they stop being fun, until the masturbation turns into something less euphoric.  Then spirituality and rest of it goes out the window and its on to drugs that are more consistent with their effects.  Think of all the users from the Psychedelic forum who have graduated to the the Other Drugs discussion.  Many of them professed the power, uniqueness, and transforming nature of psychedelics - until the masturbatory effects stopped.  Many users convince themselves they are taking these drugs "for the right reasons" but I think there are a lot of deluders out there bullshitting themselves about a whole lot more than peace and love maaaaaan.  Its masturbation, dressed up in magic, and once that dress comes off, its onto the meaner, nastier drugs.




not to be jumping in on your response to another member, but I disagree fully.

I used to be a fairly heavy meth user a long time ago, I was an addict in my younger years.
I've been through several addictions from pot to MDMA pills to codine to meth to cocaine, and through all of that over nearly a decade of use now, I still consider the psychedelic experience to have all its "magic"

DMT may be more so in this case and what your refering to, since its short acting and people with access to it can use it heavily and repeat dosing again and again.
But for me I always put the psychedelic experience on a pedestal. It was like waiting to get drunk on a friday when I was a young teen, but 100X more special.
I would wait for months before dosing and be excited about the date I planned it, and since I never pushed it "too hard" on psychedelics I've made it through all my trips with a good outlook on my use.

You said it yourself that your generalizing but I just don't think that that kind of thinking applies to all psychedelic users.
Like I said I know a real drug addiction, and psychedelics never led me there, and even through the rough times of that addiction my psychedelic trips where special and all turned into good memories.

Psychedelics never stop being fun for me, I just kind of reach the point where I realize I don't need them anymore. And I eventually come back to them because like we all know, they have the "magic"

:peace:


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Offlinenoobieman
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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: joemolloy]
    #14398516 - 05/04/11 06:25 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

joemolloy said:

That's some simplistic and topical thinking.  Dig a little.

Fuck me and my presumptious generalization but I suspect (and you know) it hits the mark with damn accurate precision.

Just because we take drugs doesn't mean we have to lie to ourselves.



I'm glad you're not lying to yourself anymore Joe. And I'm glad your thinking is sharp about your own drug use.

But yes, I can promise you are overgeneralizing. I'm a substance abuse counselor. My whole job is helping people unravel their thinking about what they do and why they do it. And they definitely don't all do it for the same reasons you do, have the same overall experience with substances you do, or stop for the reasons you would. My own integrity on the matter is important if I'm to help anyone, so I take that seriously.

My tendency is to over think and process to the extreme. I would say it is far more simplistic to imagine everyone's use of drugs is like your own, and that your insights apply to everyone.

More than 90% of drug users do not connect their use with spirituality except to say it destroyed theirs. Why would you assume the rare birds getting something from the drugs are just like everyone else? It makes no sense except from within your own experience. Because you had a fucked up ride. Well I can tell you confidently there are some who navigate those waters differently.

How old you are when you start seems to have a lot to do with it. I didn't start with psychedelics until I was 40. I know others who had their shit together before they messed with certain drugs. That's very different from the adolescent entry points, usually.


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InvisibleComcouveflor
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Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 353
Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: noobieman]
    #14398585 - 05/04/11 07:04 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

You folks have immense existential issues - and the thing is, you're yet to encounter the reality to trigger such issues (thus rendered valid). It's apparent when one's vision falls far short of reality, and the ability to discern this is what psychedelics CAN imbue: it doesn't mean you'll see it. Regardless of their use, what you must understand is yourself. This is why a generalized approach to them is entirely silly: the description tells more of the describing entity then of the object of description.


Edited by Comcouveflor (05/04/11 07:07 AM)


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Invisiblejoemolloy
DMT is Bullshit


Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 6,525
Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: joemolloy]
    #14398645 - 05/04/11 07:28 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

@Austrip and Noobie:  I agree with both of you but we part ways when speculating about the prevalence of psychedelic drug users graduating into harder drugs.  I'm a pessimist by nature, but also a realist.  What percentage of psychedelic enthusiasts eventually move on to bigger and badder drugs?  What is the percentage in Other Drugs Discussion?  We may disagree with our guesses at these numbers, but I hold that they are uncomfortably high. 

Austrip, I would suspect most meth users (including you?) had previous experience with psychedelics before the meth.  Why'd they move onto meth?  Psychedelics didn't do it for them anymore.  Yeah, I know the Gateway Theory gets short shrift around here for the usual reasons, but it rings true for many, especially for the poly drug users who eventually fuck their lives up.  Drug use is typically a stairway for many and they keep climbing up until they get too high.

There will be some on this forum who follow the path I outlined above.  There are many who already have and there are some who will not, but to deny that this happens or minimize it is the same dishonest propaganda type strategy that we criticize and despise programs like DARE for using.

Oh, it usually makes people on shroomery feel better when I say, "Hey guys, this is just my opinion."  It's less threatening that way, because everyone has an opinion, right?  All opinions are equal, right?  Not really though.  Some are better than others.  Some are threatening to deeply held beliefs, especially if they are too damn logical or rational and hit a little too close to home.  Especially if they come from someone who has been there and done that and then called bullshit on the whole damn thing.

Yeah, its like I left the church and am still an extremist, fanatical bigmouth except I am for the other side.  But damn, is it me or I am one insightful prick?


--------------------
Don't PM me with bullshit.  I don't sell or trade cactus and I don't know where you can get any, other than your mother's ass.


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InvisibleFleshCap
FleshCap
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Registered: 11/10/08
Posts: 685
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Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: joemolloy]
    #14398801 - 05/04/11 08:23 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The debate regarding spirituality and psychedelics is one that cannot be resolved. However, I feel compelled to toss in my two cents.

When I visited the "Avenue of the Giants" an ancient forest located in Northern California where some of the tallest trees in the world grow, I was taken back by something I read while touring the park. A display board explained how "the organic matter of dead trees is recycled and becomes the matter of new trees." In this simple message I saw spirituality.

The forest was talking to me and it was a spiritual message about the evolution and cycle of life. So, I ask "Does everyone who visits the forest come away with spiritual insights?"

"No."

I saw spirituality where perhaps another person would see just a forest.

Point being, many people will visit the forest, some people will report having received a spiritual message, while others will report nothing.

Truth exists is the mind of the believer. Your belief in the psychedelic experience activates the spirit of the plant or substance that you take. You have the power to determine what it is.


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OfflineThePhilosophizer
Musical Gear Head
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Registered: 02/27/11
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Loc: The Moon
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action [Re: FleshCap]
    #14399209 - 05/04/11 10:20 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

FleshCap said:
The debate regarding spirituality and psychedelics is one that cannot be resolved. However, I feel compelled to toss in my two cents.

When I visited the "Avenue of the Giants" an ancient forest located in Northern California where some of the tallest trees in the world grow, I was taken back by something I read while touring the park. A display board explained how "the organic matter of dead trees is recycled and becomes the matter of new trees." In this simple message I saw spirituality.

The forest was talking to me and it was a spiritual message about the evolution and cycle of life. So, I ask "Does everyone who visits the forest come away with spiritual insights?"

"No."

I saw spirituality where perhaps another person would see just a forest.

Point being, many people will visit the forest, some people will report having received a spiritual message, while others will report nothing.

Truth exists is the mind of the believer. Your belief in the psychedelic experience activates the spirit of the plant or substance that you take. You have the power to determine what it is.



:thumbup: I agree 100%. Experiences are all around us, whether they be psychedelic or just magical moments in everyday life or even tragedies, and they can be as spiritual or dull as the person experiencing them chooses them to be.

I think psychedelic users graduating to harder drugs is more of the issue of their individual choice and what they're seeking those drugs to provide for them rather than the effects of the spirituality that the drugs seem to give. True, there is danger in abusing these substances and possible (well, likely) insanity lurks in dwelling on these states for extended periods of time. But whoever said that in order to appreciate the spiritual aspects of these experiences you have to indulge in them every single weekend?

If mind-altering chemicals are the only ways a person can have a spiritual experience, perhaps that person needs to rethink how spiritual he really is. The most dangerous aspect about these drugs are the users taking them.


--------------------
:pinkshroom:  :regularshroom:  :mushroomgrow: :greenshroom: :stinkyshroom: :scaryshroom: :mushdance: :dancingshroom: :cubie:  :mushroom2:  :supershroom:      :muahaha:

<<<<<<<<---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->>>>>>>>

A game without challenges is boring. It is possible to live a happy optimistic life without being in denial about all the shit that goes on all around.
You just gotta get up and dance with the fire instead of moping about it. Be thankful for your problems.
Without them, your life would be a fucking bore.
But don't make it all about the problems. There are magnificent wonders in this world worth living for :wink:


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