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Offlinezzripz
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Re: What IS Psychedelic Experience for You? [Re: ivander]
    #14389697 - 05/02/11 04:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

This is your opinion perhaps, but I would argue that many people would not share it with you. Accepting reality as illusion is not dissociation from it, rather a dissociation of ego. Which is construct of this illusion, and that act is just defensive mechanism at work. IMO. When one is asking questions about himself or about other selves, its important first to know who is the self? Is it auto pilot ego, or something else?
Also when you look at psychedelic experiences, you can apply many filters to look upon it. And every other will give you different perspective. And that does not mean, that one is more or less truthful then another. Of course its my opinion :wink:






I am sure not everyone agrees with with every individual. I am just telling you my experience which feels right to me so i argue my position. IF you said something i felt right about i would let you know.

If you see reality as illusion that does seem to me as dis-assocation, yeah. I would feel better if you said it was BOTH real and illusory. Ie., it is a mystery we cant pin down. Agreed?

Quote:

When one is asking questions about himself or about other selves, its important first to know who is the self? Is it auto pilot ego, or something else?




can be both. We dont know what 'it' 'is'. What do you think?

Quote:

Also when you look at psychedelic experiences, you can apply many filters to look upon it.




Give us some examples what you mean.
here's what i THINK you mean. Set and Settings? Interpretations? Like you saying you cannot see directly and I say I feel i can?
So for example, I would posit that I can see peoples body language very clearly and so feel what they are thinking and feeling beneath their social mask. That to me is seeing directly. because when I see many of the youth today, and older, they are NOT seeing directly but are taken in by images, like with the 'celebrities' pop stars they scream at, politicians etc.

Quote:

And every other will give you different perspective. And that does not mean, that one is more or less truthful then another.




So your saying that every trip is unique? of course. but i dont agree where you say that one cannot be more meaningful for you than another.

Edited by zzripz (05/02/11 04:42 PM)

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Offlineivander
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Re: What IS Psychedelic Experience for You? [Re: zzripz]
    #14392948 - 05/03/11 05:12 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I am sure not everyone agrees with with every individual. I am just telling you my experience which feels right to me so i argue my position. IF you said something i felt right about i would let you know.

If you see reality as illusion that does seem to me as dis-assocation, yeah. I would feel better if you said it was BOTH real and illusory. Ie., it is a mystery we cant pin down. Agreed?



Its both, yes. But to one version of self its real, and to other it is illusion. That is why I am more concerned with identity of self first.. and with other things second. Is it mystery.. I would say no.

Quote:

can be both. We dont know what 'it' 'is'. What do you think?


Why do you say we? Again it is both, but imagine if you asked same question to some dude like Osho, or some other guru. I think I know what it is, for me. But what it could be for you, I cant say, nor do I know.

Quote:

Give us some examples what you mean.
here's what i THINK you mean. Set and Settings? Interpretations? Like you saying you cannot see directly and I say I feel i can?
So for example, I would posit that I can see peoples body language very clearly and so feel what they are thinking and feeling beneath their social mask. That to me is seeing directly. because when I see many of the youth today, and older, they are NOT seeing directly but are taken in by images, like with the 'celebrities' pop stars they scream at, politicians etc.



Example. Well we as individuals, in one way, represent a filters of observation of this dimensional/illusory reality.
We can look at the same picture at the same time, but we see two different things. Now expand this, to look at the picture while on shrooms. Apply emotional filter, judgmental filter, objective filter.. or subjective. Every time you will see something different. Look at it, with qualities of your ego. Or with your pure consciousness.

Quote:

So your saying that every trip is unique? of course. but i dont agree where you say that one cannot be more meaningful for you than another.


I dont recall saying anything about meaning. Its meaningful as much as you want it to be. :cool:


--------------------
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music. - Nietzsche

I've never faked a sarcasm in my life. True story.

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Offlinezzripz
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Re: What IS Psychedelic Experience for You? [Re: ivander]
    #14393699 - 05/03/11 10:10 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

How do you measure how much they help us see directly. I am sad to say that my experience at these forums with some of the members here doesn't give me great hope for the enlightening power of entheogens, cause they just seem silly, and no attention span, and diss serious subjects. I mean FUCK this is a forum, and aren;t ya supposed to explore things in a respectful way?
But there is this childish frivolousness in a world that is being attacked left right and centre. Indigenous people I think respect entheogens far more, but am not sure if they are into talking about them like this. They view them as SO sacred they dont want to talk all over the internet about such stuff.

I do. I respect indigenous people, but I am me and I like to explore (why i say this is not meaning ALL indigenous people, but an experience i had at a forum called New Age frauds and plastic shamans, appreantly run by native americans, but i got real sense of not being able to talk freely there and then got banned)

The cnetral thing for me is that given respect entheogens help us see thru propaganda DIRECTLY. This means that say your looking at a river, a waterfall, a flower, an insent, a dog, another person---you are seeing them in a direct way. Can i provide evidence for that? All I can say is that my experience, and others peoples experiences I have read. But i do know that some experiences interpretations i have trouble with---like the psychedelic transhumanists like Leary, and McKenna. For me psychedelics show nature in its sacred state. Ie., you are seeing in a polar-relational way.
HOWEVER after my first trips when 15, after I spent years searching to integrate and find help with interpreting my experiences. Someone else may have got caught up in a cult. Ie., i see even Buddhism as world-denying. Lots of hippies in the 60s went running to eastern beliefs after their trips. But I am more Pagan minded. That is seeing nature as magical and to be respected, so am attracted to permaculture etc

of course i promote my way of seeing things because i see throughout a lot of belief systems varying degrees of ignore-ance about the natural world. I think psychedelics can heal this, but we have to talk about it and choose set and settings so as to heal this. that is what i am saying

Edited by zzripz (05/03/11 10:11 AM)

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: What IS Psychedelic Experience for You? [Re: zzripz]
    #14393775 - 05/03/11 10:42 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
The cnetral thing for me is that given respect entheogens help us see thru propaganda DIRECTLY. This means that say your looking at a river, a waterfall, a flower, an insent, a dog, another person---you are seeing them in a direct way.




No matter what chemicals are coursing through your veins and no matter what ratio of neurotransmitters are currently active in your brain, your experience of the outside world will always be indirect: it's mediated by your sensory perceptions.  This is what differentiates the noumena from the phenomena... in Kant's terms the former is the "thing in itself" and can never be directly experienced; all we can ever get at is the phenomena (the thing as it appears to an observer).


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlineivander
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Re: What IS Psychedelic Experience for You? [Re: deCypher]
    #14394011 - 05/03/11 11:38 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

of course i promote my way of seeing things because i see throughout a lot of belief systems varying degrees of ignore-ance about the natural world. I think psychedelics can heal this, but we have to talk about it and choose set and settings so as to heal this. that is what i am saying



Then I wish you luck in your business. To me psychedelics were just one part of the journey, a necessary one. Now Im onto other things. But is it helpful to talk about it, yes. Is it necessary, to some yes to some no. Im sure you realized that by now.


--------------------
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music. - Nietzsche

I've never faked a sarcasm in my life. True story.

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Offlinezzripz
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Re: What IS Psychedelic Experience for You? [Re: deCypher]
    #14394184 - 05/03/11 12:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
The cnetral thing for me is that given respect entheogens help us see thru propaganda DIRECTLY. This means that say your looking at a river, a waterfall, a flower, an insent, a dog, another person---you are seeing them in a direct way.




No matter what chemicals are coursing through your veins and no matter what ratio of neurotransmitters are currently active in your brain, your experience of the outside world will always be indirect: it's mediated by your sensory perceptions.  This is what differentiates the noumena from the phenomena... in Kant's terms the former is the "thing in itself" and can never be directly experienced; all we can ever get at is the phenomena (the thing as it appears to an observer).




That is exactl;y what i warn about. OK you got two things. You have experience, and then you got the interpetation of the experience. Now we all interpret for sure. But some interpretations are made out to be the truth. And this is the history of fukin philosophy!! Where do you want to begin? Plato? I challenge his philosophy. I also challenge the other 'thinkers' that have been chosen to INTERPRET our reality.



So, take a good look at him. A good direct look. What do you see. be honest. do it quick before you start remembering what he has told you to think. Do it before you read wht I am gonna say next. Do it as an EXPERIMENT! If you cheat you only cheat yourself. I just want you to look at his image here and tell me what you thought and felt.
OK done it? here's what I see looking at him. An upper class dude who is part of the establishment is what I see. What he says therefore MUST suit them, because tis THEy who make sure who the thinkers are that have INFLUENCE. And seein eeee tells us we cannot dirrectly experENCE reeeAIliteee direct, OY reckon he is workin for them SIRE!!

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Offlinefoliocb
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Re: What IS Psychedelic Experience for You? [Re: zzripz]
    #14394197 - 05/03/11 12:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

you don't know any objective truths and never will...


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^v^

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: What IS Psychedelic Experience for You? [Re: zzripz]
    #14394243 - 05/03/11 12:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
You have experience, and then you got the interpetation of the experience.




Sure, and your experience of the picture necessarily involves the mediation of your sensory organs and photons bouncing off the picture.  It is impossible to observe something without this.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlinezzripz
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Re: What IS Psychedelic Experience for You? [Re: deCypher]
    #14395458 - 05/03/11 05:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
You have experience, and then you got the interpetation of the experience.




Sure, and your experience of the picture necessarily involves the mediation of your sensory organs and photons bouncing off the picture.  It is impossible to observe something without this.




Well its weirder than THAT. check this:


Really we dont KNOW. But some people will harp on about some dead philosopher who used to wear a wig and talk real posh and be a fave of the opper class dominators and allow this long dead dude dictate to them how they understand reality. Why?? I dont do it that way. I trust my SELF as a flowing learning experience. Like I say, when I have psychedelic experience I am seeing directly--and this is not static either. Seeing directly is infinite. REALITY is infinte. thers no 'oooh i see direct. oh shit i've hit rock bottom'. It is going in in in in in to meaning which is not dead but alive. Living. But what these philosophers usually do is push a load of words at you that not only keep you in that abstracty maelstrom, but also insist that their take on reality is THE way of understanding reality. And then what you do is believe this propaganda and diss your OWN experience which is living.

Edited by zzripz (05/03/11 05:20 PM)

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What IS Psychedelic Experience for You? [Re: zzripz]
    #14407602 - 05/05/11 09:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
Just because someone's eyes are "open" doesn't mean they're looking in the same direction as you are.  Or that you are looking towards truth.




Or they are?

How can you tell though when someone's on the right or wrong track?




According to Susan Zannos's book Human Types: Essence and Enneagram, I am a "King of Hearts," so I can only answer from this vector. The King of Hearts is the 'Intellectual portion of the Feeling Function.' When all the mentation is said and done, I follow the 'path with heart,' the most compassionate way, even if it cuts at my own desires. This fits well with my Intuition and faith, that Compassion is THE gyro-scope of human development, regardless of what my personal needs and aversions are. Compassion transcends our selfish egoic-mind, and so Jesus and Buddha are the major Western and Eastern paradigmatic examples for living at the pinnacle of Compassion. Those are (whether mythical OR historical) the exemplars of the furthest reaches of human development, and my guides worthy of following.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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