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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Is death a state of consciousness? [Re: Crasher]
    #14375029 - 04/29/11 10:07 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Crasher said:
Quote:

The Tibetan Book of the Dead is good stuff, but keep in mind it was written for a person in Tibetan culture hundreds of years ago. There are authors today who have similarly explored the non-physical dimensions. However, their accounts and experiences will be more easy to comprehend, more useful to, the contemporary Westerner.

If your interested in some of these guys, check out Robert Monroe, William Buhlman, Robert Bruce, Bruce Moen, Robert Moss and Robert Waggoner. The accounts are fascinating and all seem to correlate and says the same thing.




Two good points! First As a student of the world, you must look at various scriptures and traditions through the lens of the people who wrote them. The trouble of religion is the persistence of dead dogma as it moves through history. The books of Moses were written for the jews as they wandered and yearned for a home. Tibetan Book of the Dead was a collection for those living in the mountains in Tibet. (consequently, I believe you should avoid the prescription to snort your ejaculation after checking it for signs of death!) 

If you come to learn that the Word is truly alive, that Sophia exists, that Sammadhi can be attained, that the lotus or rose petals truly unfold within, you realize that dead scripture was written for dead men, and that the laws of Reality are written in your heart.

Quote:

And Jesus answered: "Seek not the law in your scriptures, for the law is life, whereas the scripture is dead. I tell you truly, Moses received not his laws from God in writing, but through the living word. The law is living word of living God to living prophets for living men. In everything that is life is the law written. You find it in the grass, in the tree, in the river, in the mountain, in the birds of heaven, in the fishes of the sea; but seek it chiefly in yourselves. For I tell you truly, all living things are nearer to God than the scripture which is without life. God so made life and all living things that they might by the everlasting word teach the laws of the true God to man. God wrote not the laws in the pages of books, but in your heart and in your spirit. They are in your breath, your blood, your bone; in your flesh, your bowels, your eyes, your ears, and in every little part of your body. They are present in the air, in the water, in the earth, in the plants, in th e sunbeams, in the depths and in the heights. They all speak to you that you may understand the tongue and the will of the living God. But you shut your eyes that you may not see, and you shut your ears that you may not hear. I tell you truly, that the scripture is the work of man, but life and all its hosts are the work of our God. Wherefore do you not listen to the words of God which are written in His works? And wherefore do you study the dead scriptures which are the work of the hands of men?"


-Jesus, from the Essene Gospel of Peace. A lovely attribution to him, even if it ain't canonized gospel.

Secondly, it looks like being named Robert is the surest way to a profound NDE!




interesting that it says scripture is written by man, no wonder the essene gospel is not included in the bible

Quote:

It is equally difficult to accept an afterlife or lack thereof than it is to believe that death isn't the end? :what:




i believe it is, because then i wonder what comes next and what do we do for eternity. it's the fear of the unknown, not the fact that we die.


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

Edited by bigmike7104 (04/29/11 10:16 PM)

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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is death a state of consciousness? [Re: occollegeboi]
    #14375190 - 04/29/11 10:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

this whole thread has turned into word play.

WELL YOU SAID THIS WORD BUT YOU REALLY MEANT THIS WORD SO YOU'RE WRONG#!@#!@#!@

Quote:

occollegeboi said:
would the afterlife ONLY be the 10 minute DMT trip

does one gain the wisdom all in that 10 minute DMT brain trip which feels like an eternity?





you need to stop reading Rick Strassman's book.

DMT resides in the human body.

no one has figured out where in the human body it comes from.

any speculation that we "trip DMT" when we die is just that.

speculation.


OCCOLLEGEBOI: this is the second post ive seen of yours thats just full of misinformation. you need to so some real research.

and i don't count erowid....


--------------------
AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!

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InvisibleCrasher
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Re: Is death a state of consciousness? [Re: k00laid]
    #14376835 - 04/30/11 10:23 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

thank you for adding nothing to the conversation but derision. Hopefully no one will notice you didn't actually make a point!


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Is death a state of consciousness? [Re: Crasher]
    #14380112 - 04/30/11 11:05 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Crasher said:
Quote:

Poid said:

By definition, no, but I can see why believing so might ease your death anxiety. :satansmoking:

... Yeah, and the cessation of biological functions that sustain life is not a state of consciousness.

...Your point being? Consciousness is understood not as being localized to a specific location in the brain, but as being an emergent property of the entire thing.


...Consciousness is an emergent property of a functioning brain--once a brain ceases functioning, it no longer produces consciousness.

...It's a pretty simple concept--take death out of the picture, and the result will be that many anxieties regarding it will fade.

...It is equally difficult to accept an afterlife or lack thereof than it is to believe that death isn't the end? :what:




If consciousness is an emergent property of our biological functioning, then at the time of death, there is a concurrently diminishing state of consciousness while these functions cease.


At the time of death, consciousness has already been diminished.


Quote:

Crasher said:
Thus, the physical death has a state of consciousness, albeit degraded by the stopping of certain mental functions, to the point where it may or may not exist at all.


There is no evidence that consciousness exists after the point of brain-death.


Quote:

Crasher said:
The nature of one's death might allow longer periods of altered states of consciousness, diminished mental capacity, or prolonged cerebral activity after physical movement becomes impossible, so I don't think we can lump the death experience into a single convenient definition.  If I get shot, an artery is severed, and immediately I lose awareness of my surroundings because of shock and blood loss, people would say I'm dying. How long am I dying? until I'm dead, I guess. What marks the exact moment of death? a flatline on an EKG or EEG? people have returned from cardiac arrest and electrocerebral silence.


Yeah, so the demarcation of life from death is arbitrary, so what? Consciousness typically ceases before a person is considered dead.


Quote:

Crasher said:
You're suggesting death anxiety decreases with the belief in a persisting state of consciousness because it's no longer death? Really?


Reading comprehension much? I said that the belief in a persisting state of consciousness after death is indicative of death anxiety.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: Is death a state of consciousness? [Re: Poid]
    #14380190 - 04/30/11 11:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
At the time of death, consciousness has already been diminished.





:orly: Sorry I had to break out the owl on yea.

This assumes that the physical body is the generator of consciousness. Other theories have the brain as the receiver of consciousness. We really can't prove one way or the other. Although I'm fairly convinced of the latter from personal experiences receiving non-local and acausal information while in a "out-of-body" state of consciousness.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Is death a state of consciousness? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #14380225 - 04/30/11 11:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Quote:

Poid said:
At the time of death, consciousness has already been diminished.





:orly: Sorry I had to break out the owl on yea.


:mad2:


Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
This assumes that the physical body is the generator of consciousness.


That's not just a mere assumption, that's what the evidence points to--consciousness is an emergent property of a functioning brain (i.e. it is generated by the physical body).


Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Other theories have the brain as the receiver of consciousness.


I'd like to have a look at those theories. :lol:


Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
We really can't prove one way or the other.


Science does not concern itself with proof, rather, it concerns itself with evidence.


Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Although I'm fairly convinced of the latter from personal experiences receiving non-local and acausal information while in a "out-of-body" state of consciousness.


Those perceptions were created by your brain. :brainfart:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: Is death a state of consciousness? [Re: Poid]
    #14380265 - 04/30/11 11:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You need to disprove the falsifiable hypothesis. Can science prove that consciousness is not being received by the brain?  :tongue2:


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Is death a state of consciousness? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #14380295 - 04/30/11 11:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
You need to disprove the falsifiable hypothesis. Can science prove that consciousness is not being received by the brain?  :tongue2:


Yes, it has proved that it is generated by the brain--it can't be both generated and received by the brain.


Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:



Who the fuck is that? :lol:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: Is death a state of consciousness? [Re: Poid]
    #14380311 - 04/30/11 11:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
You need to disprove the falsifiable hypothesis. Can science prove that consciousness is not being received by the brain?  :tongue2:


Yes, it has proved that it is generated by the brain--it can't be both generated and received by the brain.


Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:



Who the fuck is that? :lol:




The observation that the death of the physical body = death of consciousness on the perceived physical plane does not prove that the brain generates consciousness.

That's Karl Popper. I was chillin' with him in a dream the other night.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Is death a state of consciousness? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #14380447 - 05/01/11 12:02 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
The observation that the death of the physical body = death of consciousness on the perceived physical plane does not prove that the brain generates consciousness.


All existing evidence points to the suggestion that consciousness is an emergent property of a functioning brain:

http://willcov.com/bio-consciousness/front/A%20Little%20More.htm
Quote:

Consciousness arises as an emergent property of the biological neural network in the brain. This thesis has been stated in a number of ways by science experts:

"You" are the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules.  (Crick; Astonishing Hypothesis, 3)

Scientific meaning of emergent -  The whole may not be the simple sum of the separate parts. The whole can be understood from (1)  behavior of the parts plus (2) knowledge of how all the parts interact. (Crick; Astonishing Hypothesis, 11)

Consciousness emerges from neuronal features of the brain. A system has emergent properties if these are not possessed by its parts. There are no mystical or new-age overtones to this. (Koch; Quest for Consciousness, 10)

Physical basis of consciousness is an emergent property of specific interactions among neurons and their elements. Although consciousness is fully compatible with the laws of physics, it is not feasible to predict or understand consciousness from these. (Koch; Quest for Consciousness, 11)

Consciousness is an emergent property arising from the self-organization of concurrently active but spatially distributed regions of the brain; there is no central organizer and no unique location where it comes into existence. (Johnston; Why We Feel, 124)

Conscious experiences are evolved emergent properties of biological brains. (Johnston; Why We Feel, 58)

Human conscious experiences are emergent properties that arise from the complex arrangements and interconnections between nerve cells. (Johnston; Why We Feel, 59)

The liquidity of water is an emergent property. Nothing in the equations of atomic physics even hints at such a property. (Waldrop; Complexity, 82)

Life is an emergent property, the product of DNA molecules and protein molecules and myriad other kinds of molecules, all obeying the laws of chemistry. (Waldrop; Complexity, 82)

The mind is an emergent property, the product of billions of neurons obeying the biological laws of the living cell. (Waldrop; Complexity, 82)



http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/imp/jcs/1994/00000001/00000001/art00008
Quote:

... it is suggested that consciousness should be viewed as an emergent property of physical systems.



http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/rev/76/6/532/
Quote:

...consciousness..[is]..interpreted to be a direct emergent property of cerebral activity...





Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
That's Karl Popper. I was chillin' with him in a dream the other night.


Ah. :leaf:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineSynapses-R-Us
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Re: Is death a state of consciousness? [Re: occollegeboi] * 1
    #14380559 - 05/01/11 12:27 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I personally think, and modern science would back me up, that the brain just stops functioning and consciousness is no longer there. I think the experience they have before death largely depends on the type of death and on the person themself. While some believe shrooms feel like heaven others believe they feel like hell, probably the same for death.

The mind is complex and all it takes is a shorting/adding of one chemical or stimulation of one part to drastically alter perception, death causes both and in extremely large quantities, I personally don't think you experience a DMT trip when you die, more just crazy ass shit when your brain goes through these intense changes


--------------------
"Every individual is at once the beneficiary and the victim of the linguistic tradition into which he has been born - the beneficiary inasmuch as language gives access to the accumulated records of other people's experience, the victim in so far as it confirms him in the belief that reduced awareness is the only awareness and as it bedevils his sense of reality, so that he is all too apt to take his concepts for data, his words for actual things."

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Offlinecbub
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Re: Is death a state of consciousness? [Re: Poid]
    #14381926 - 05/01/11 10:13 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Since this is all hypothesis it would have been wise of you to allow a possibility of it not being true.
<3


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It's fine.

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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: Is death a state of consciousness? [Re: cbub]
    #14382051 - 05/01/11 11:00 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

All evidence points to the world being flat! :grin:


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InvisibleCrasher
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Re: Is death a state of consciousness? [Re: Poid]
    #14382107 - 05/01/11 11:17 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Reading comprehension much? I said that the belief in a persisting state of consciousness after death is indicative of death anxiety.




Where did you say that...?

My reading comprehension must be screwed, because you certainly said this: "By definition, no, but I can see why believing so might ease your death anxiety."

and then this:" take death out of the picture, and the result will be that many anxieties regarding it will fade."

The key words "easing" and "fade" have led me to believe that you're suggesting this after-death consciousness is a belief used to alleviate the believer's death anxiety.

I'm asking you, how does the acceptance of a post-mortem state of consciousness in any way ease death anxiety? It's rife with it's own irrational ideas and thoughts about eternity, being, non/being, etc. You still physically die. 



--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

Edited by Crasher (05/01/11 11:49 AM)

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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Is death a state of consciousness? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #14382194 - 05/01/11 11:43 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

yea i doubt atheists are in general freaking out about death more than other people

and poid, since when has the mystery of consciousness been solved. up to 2007, the easy problem has only been partly solved.
here is an article by psychologist steven pinker

Quote:

The Easy Problem, then, is to distinguish conscious from unconscious mental computation, identify its correlates in the brain and explain why it evolved.

The Hard Problem is explaining how subjective experience arises from neural computation. The problem is hard because no one knows what a solution might look like or even whether it is a genuine scientific problem in the first place. And not surprisingly, everyone agrees that the hard problem (if it is a problem) remains a mystery.

Although neither problem has been solved, neuroscientists agree on many features of both of them, and the feature they find least controversial is the one that many people outside the field find the most shocking. Francis Crick called it "the astonishing hypothesis"--the idea that our thoughts, sensations, joys and aches consist entirely of physiological activity in the tissues of the brain.

So neuroscientists are well on the way to identifying the neural correlates of consciousness, a part of the Easy Problem...
none of the inroads into the Easy Problem brings a solution to the Hard Problem even a bit closer




http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1580394-7,00.html

also just because an experience of something like say a feeling can be located in part of the brain, doesn't mean that part of the brain is the cause of the subjective experience of that feeling. it could be that's just where in the brain it's represented. sort of like the chemical imbalance theory of depression, is low neurotransmitters the cause of depression or does depression cause low transmitters, or can it go both ways.


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

Edited by bigmike7104 (05/01/11 01:50 PM)

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Offlineoccollegeboi
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Re: Is death a state of consciousness? [Re: bigmike7104]
    #14385107 - 05/01/11 09:07 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

How did you guys start the topic of death "anxiety"?? I never stated I had anxiety over death.

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Is death a state of consciousness? [Re: occollegeboi]
    #14385277 - 05/01/11 09:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I think a better question is, is life a state of consciousness?

Consciousness can be equated with existence, in that both are just preconditions for the attribution of properties that define experience. No consciousness = no existence, and there's no such thing as non-existence, by definition.

I don't think consciousness ceases with the death of one individual any more than the brain ceases to function with the death of one neuron... personal identity is much more open than we commonly think. Whether it's "your" perception that continues is a different question entirely, given that "you" were not very well-defined to begin with.


--------------------

Edited by NetDiver (05/01/11 09:46 PM)

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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Is death a state of consciousness? [Re: occollegeboi]
    #14385283 - 05/01/11 09:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

How did you guys start the topic of death "anxiety"?? I never stated I had anxiety over death.




because poid is saying people who believe their consciousness extends beyond death have death anxiety, and they have that belief to less than the anxiety


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Is death a state of consciousness? [Re: bigmike7104]
    #14385354 - 05/01/11 09:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It's important to be conscious of your true motivations in discussing theories of consciousness and death.

However, I think accusing every single person who proposes some idea of consciousness after death of doing so entirely out of death-anxiety reasons is stifling to intelligent thought and discussion; ideas should be evaluated on their own merit, rather than any perceived motivations for coming up with them.

Saying "you only think so because of death anxiety :satansmoking: " is basically a useless response; it's an ad-hominem (even a strawman) argument.


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OfflineSynapses-R-Us
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Re: Is death a state of consciousness? [Re: bigmike7104]
    #14388568 - 05/02/11 01:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bigmike7104 said:
Quote:

How did you guys start the topic of death "anxiety"?? I never stated I had anxiety over death.




because poid is saying people who believe their consciousness extends beyond death have death anxiety, and they have that belief to less than the anxiety




and it's probably subconsciously the reason 90% of people are religious


--------------------
"Every individual is at once the beneficiary and the victim of the linguistic tradition into which he has been born - the beneficiary inasmuch as language gives access to the accumulated records of other people's experience, the victim in so far as it confirms him in the belief that reduced awareness is the only awareness and as it bedevils his sense of reality, so that he is all too apt to take his concepts for data, his words for actual things."

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