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InvisibleBlimeyGrimey
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: zzripz]
    #14457732 - 05/15/11 05:43 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
You're all lost




Fixed.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
    #14457773 - 05/15/11 05:49 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)



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InvisibleBlimeyGrimey
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14459507 - 05/15/11 10:19 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)



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OfflineOoBYCoO
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
    #14459671 - 05/15/11 10:48 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

:laugh2:  Gotta love Boxxy!


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: Phred]
    #14460240 - 05/16/11 01:05 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

So any ill effects visited on the Iraqi populace by the UN sanctions were Hussein's fault from the beginning to the end.




Well we have discussed cause and effect more than once on this matter! I still maintain that as the West had multiple options to deal with the so called problem in Iraq the West must take some responsibilty for the chosen course of action.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
    #14460266 - 05/16/11 01:14 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

If Saddam would have spent more money on helping his people instead of building gold lined palaces then his people would have been better off.




Saddam is hardly alone in this kind of behaviour but I take it you are choosing to ignore the standard of living in Iraq prior to Gulf war I? Obviously it was not as high as the US or Europe but it fared very well against comparable states and regimes.

Quote:

Also, if I recall correctly, it was Saddam's fault that sanctions got enforced in the first place.




Nobody has shown that sanctions were either appropriate or effective. Unless of course the purpose was to cause harm to the average Iraqi citizen.

Quote:


Place the blame where it should be and not on the reactions to that cause.




The sanctions were not a proportionate response to Saddam's prior actions.


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Edited by GazzBut (05/16/11 01:25 AM)


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: GazzBut]
    #14460271 - 05/16/11 01:16 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)



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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: learningtofly]
    #14460292 - 05/16/11 01:24 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Do you actually have a point?


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: GazzBut]
    #14460306 - 05/16/11 01:31 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

If America just left the muslim holy land then 9/11 wouldnt have happened


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: learningtofly]
    #14460458 - 05/16/11 02:20 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"The illusion of freedom [in America] will continue as long as it’s profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater." Frank Zappa


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: GazzBut]
    #14460542 - 05/16/11 02:53 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

If Saddam would have spent more money on helping his people instead of building gold lined palaces then his people would have been better off.




Saddam is hardly alone in this kind of behaviour but I take it you are choosing to ignore the standard of living in Iraq prior to Gulf war I? Obviously it was not as high as the US or Europe but it fared very well against comparable states and regimes.





You are repeating arguments that have been dealt with previously and to which you've supplied no rebuttal.  As I've said, this is just a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

To attribute moral responsibility for the various changes between the two time periods (much less a particular change- the increased rate of death, et cet) to the imposition of sanctions rather than Saddam's refusal to allow aid workers in, pilfering of the aid he insisted be shipped directly to him, the initiation of aggressive and illegal wars/ beligerant foreign policy, and the huge military budget and confiscatory policies which destroyed the Iraqi economy, is clearly unjustified.




Quote:


Quote:

Also, if I recall correctly, it was Saddam's fault that sanctions got enforced in the first place.




Nobody has shown that sanctions were either appropriate or effective. Unless of course the purpose was to cause harm to the average Iraqi citizen.




So what?  Equivocating again?  We were not discussing whether the sanctions were appropriate or effective, but whether those enforcing the sanctions/enforcers had moral responsibility for the deaths: first alleged to be some gigantic number, then revised to allege at least one death occured, then revised again to allege some deaths were 'caused' by the sanctions. 




As for your argument now, changed to whether the sanctions 'caused' any deaths: some vague notion of cause was not the issue discussed here- but moral responsibility.  There is a clear reason why philosophers, courts, and other bodies deciding matters in the commonlaw tradition concern themselves with not some vague notion of causation when ascribing blame but solely concern themselves with the proximate cause: that act, done without privledge, which lead to the loss which would not have been incurred but for the act.  Its unclear if your equivocation to 'cause' as the relevant factor is just careless or trying to muddle the issue and lower the bar, but the problem remains. 

Quote:

Quote:


Place the blame where it should be and not on the reactions to that cause.




The sanctions were not a proportionate response to Saddam's prior actions.




You continue to make bare conclusions without providing any argumetn or factual evidence whatsoever.  Your naked claims are not helpful- have you made any arguments here at all, or do you just continue to state conclusions as facts?

Ignoring that problem, what is the relevance of the point made?  What does it matter whether the sanctions were proportionate?  Was that what we were discussing or is this yet another equivocation?  Stick to the issue or concede you're unable to support your claim- stop dodging.


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InvisibleBlimeyGrimey
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: GazzBut]
    #14460557 - 05/16/11 03:03 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

If Saddam would have spent more money on helping his people instead of building gold lined palaces then his people would have been better off.




Saddam is hardly alone in this kind of behaviour but I take it you are choosing to ignore the standard of living in Iraq prior to Gulf war I? Obviously it was not as high as the US or Europe but it fared very well against comparable states and regimes.




Saddam was building palaces and spending excessive amounts on military spending AFTER sanctions had been imposed. If he gave a fuck about his people he would have spent that money on making sure they were fed.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: johnm214]
    #14460565 - 05/16/11 03:13 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


You are repeating arguments that have been dealt with previously and to which you've supplied no rebuttal.




Where exactly?

Quote:

To attribute moral responsibility for the various changes between the two time periods (much less a particular change- the increased rate of death, et cet) to the imposition of sanctions rather than Saddam's refusal to allow aid workers in, pilfering of the aid he insisted be shipped directly to him, the initiation of aggressive and illegal wars/ beligerant foreign policy, and the huge military budget and confiscatory policies which destroyed the Iraqi economy, is clearly unjustified.




I would say it is as equally unjustified to ignore the effects of sanctions and lay all the blame on Saddams alleged pilfering of aid etc. You have done nothing to backup your own bare assertion that this is true.

Quote:

but whether those enforcing the sanctions/enforcers had moral responsibility for the deaths: first alleged to be some gigantic number, then revised to allege at least one death occured, then revised again to allege some deaths were 'caused' by the sanctions. 




For the sake of discussion I have merely conceeded that I cannot know for sure the exact figure of deaths caused by sanctions. My personal opinion remainthat the number is extremely high but the facts are clouded and I dont think anyone can point to conclusive evidence on this.

There is no objective truth to be had here regarding who had moral responsibilty for the effects of sanctions. It seems the closest we could possibly get would be to concede that both parties (Saddam and the West) should take some responsibility for this.

Quote:

There is a clear reason why philosophers, courts, and other bodies deciding matters in the commonlaw tradition concern themselves with not some vague notion of causation when ascribing blame but solely concern themselves with the proximate cause: that act, done without privledge, which lead to the loss which would not have been incurred but for the act.  Its unclear if your equivocation to 'cause' as the relevant factor is just careless or trying to muddle the issue and lower the bar, but the problem remains. 




Can you please explain how this relates to the point I have made that the imposition of sanctions was not a necessary effect of Saddams actions? I dont understand what you are getting at here.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
    #14460573 - 05/16/11 03:18 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Saddam was building palaces and spending excessive amounts on military spending AFTER sanctions had been imposed.




How many new Palaces were constructed in the years after sanctions were imposed? How much did this cost?

Can you provide figures for year on year increases in military spending to back up your claims?

Still the fact remains, the West knew Saddam had little respect for his people yet we continued to impose a sanctions regime that did little to effect Saddam himself (as your own words above point out) whilst having a very negative effect on the general Iraqi populace.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: GazzBut]
    #14460705 - 05/16/11 04:59 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:


You are repeating arguments that have been dealt with previously and to which you've supplied no rebuttal.




Where exactly?




Post 14441792.  You've never replied to the criticism, nor defended the validity of, this clear post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy- now you argue it once again. 

>>>Johnm214:  Is there reasonable assurance that the situation would have largely improved had the sanctions been eliminated?
>>Gazzbutt:  Of course! do you have any idea how different the situation was in Iraq prior to gulf war I and the sanctions? This has to be one of the most stupid questions I have ever heard.
>Johnm214:  Is this not just a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy?- after this therefore because of this?
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14441792#14441792


Quote:


Quote:

To attribute moral responsibility for the various changes between the two time periods (much less a particular change- the increased rate of death, et cet) to the imposition of sanctions rather than Saddam's refusal to allow aid workers in, pilfering of the aid he insisted be shipped directly to him, the initiation of aggressive and illegal wars/ beligerant foreign policy, and the huge military budget and confiscatory policies which destroyed the Iraqi economy, is clearly unjustified.




I would say it is as equally unjustified to ignore the effects of sanctions and lay all the blame on Saddams alleged pilfering of aid etc. You have done nothing to backup your own bare assertion that this is true.





Where have I 'ignor[ed] the effects of sanctions' and 'lay[ed] all the blame on Saddams alleged pilfering of aid etc'?  I didn't take any position on this issue, merely pointed out the fallacy in attributing a causual relationship between two events, simply because one followed the other.  As I pointed out: there were many other events that by your reasoning were responsible, as they preceded the deaths, but these were ignored by your argument without explanation- likely because they didn't support the political point you wanted to make.

Once again, you make a straw man argument- you criticize a claim I simply didn't make.



Quote:



For the sake of discussion I have merely conceeded that I cannot know for sure the exact figure of deaths caused by sanctions. My personal opinion remainthat the number is extremely high but the facts are clouded and I dont think anyone can point to conclusive evidence on this.

There is no objective truth to be had here regarding who had moral responsibilty for the effects of sanctions. It seems the closest we could possibly get would be to concede that both parties (Saddam and the West) should take some responsibility for this.





Uh, really?

What's this, then in post 14403367 in this same thread? 



Gazzbut: Really? So where does that put those responsible for the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children during the 90's through barbaric sanctions? Or the +100,000 civilians killed in Iraq and Afghanistan? Where do the families of these people turn for justice? Who do they label as "up there with Hitler"? But of course, thats why we have people like Osama in the first place!
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14403367#14403367

And what about this, also in this same thread?

Gazzbut:
It is well documented that the sanctions imposed on Iraq caused a large number of Iraqi deaths. Are you disputing this?...  As I have already said, I attribute moral responsibility to those who imposed the sanctions as they could clearly have chosen to impose different sanctions which did not have such a negative impact on the Iraqi population.

Where exactly have you conceded 'for the sake of argument' that you can't point to conclusive evidence on this?  You make clear claims without any reservations and then equivocate time after time when they are questioned.  You call a request for the basis for your claims "one of the most stupid questions [you] have ever heard".  Now, after several pages of dodging, you finally say that you just presume various claims for the sake of argument and concede no clear evidence is available as to who was responsible?

Any reason you didn't say that upfront, or when your claims where questioned, rather than equivocating for pages, calling people's questions stupid, and so forth?  What exactly was the point of all this?





Quote:



Can you please explain how this relates to the point I have made that the imposition of sanctions was not a necessary effect of Saddams actions? I dont understand what you are getting at here.




It has nothing to do with your position that the sanctions were unnecessary.  As I clearly asserted previously, that's beside the point, you just brought that up after being unable or unwilling to back up your claims that those enforcing sanctions were morally responsible for the deaths of some huge number of Iraqi's.

No, I am not arguing whether the sanctions were unnecessary- that's jut another in the long line of alternative positions you've argued in response to posts asking how you back up your claims that the sanctions enforcers had responsibility for killing all those people.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: johnm214]
    #14460771 - 05/16/11 05:48 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Well played John. I simply do not have the energy to continue this discussion!


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: GazzBut]
    #14460886 - 05/16/11 06:59 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Dr. Dahlia Wasfi - Life in Iraq Under U.S. Occupation



Edited by zzripz (05/16/11 07:01 AM)


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Offlinerevolusionist12
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: zzripz]
    #14461110 - 05/16/11 08:32 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

but the real terrorist is israel and usa


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: GazzBut]
    #14461241 - 05/16/11 09:39 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Well we have discussed cause and effect more than once on this matter!




Indeed we have. And your position on the issue remains as absurd today as it was the last few times we ran it around the mulberry bush.

Quote:

I still maintain that as the West had multiple options to deal with the so called problem in Iraq ...




Yet - to no one's surprise - you have never outlined a single option that had even a snowball's chance in hell of actually ameliorating the problem.




Phred


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Edited by Phred (05/16/11 09:44 AM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: learningtofly]
    #14461251 - 05/16/11 09:42 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

learningtofly said:
If America just left the muslim holy land then 9/11 wouldnt have happened



Apparently you are ignorant of the fact that the US presence in the Muslim holy land is at the behest of the government of the Muslim holy land.  ObL, like yourself, never had any authority and in fact was a wanted criminal by the government of the Muslim holy land.  If every jackass can make his own law then there is no law.


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