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OfflineOoBYCoO
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #14453582 - 05/14/11 09:18 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

That's what I'd like to know!
I'd tell you to watch that 7/7 video zz posted but it would be a huge waste of your time.  I was referring to something in that video.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: johnm214]
    #14454416 - 05/15/11 12:46 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

How does this support your claim?




It is well documented that the sanctions imposed on Iraq caused a large number of Iraqi deaths. Are you disputing this?


You claim I haven't addressed the rest of your post but I would say you ha vent bothered to make the effort to understand my post in the first place!

Quote:

I am asking how you attribute moral responsibility to some other entity (you dont say who, clearly, but I'll imagine its those implementing and complying with UN resolutions) for the problems suffered by the Iraqi people during the imposition of sanctions which specifically allocated exemptions for oil sales for benefit of the civilian population: food, medicine, et cet. 




As I have already said, I attribute moral responsibility to those who imposed the sanctions as they could clearly have chosen to impose different sanctions which did not have such a negative impact on the Iraqi population. You seem to be trying to say that because Saddam did some bad things its ok for the West to do some bad things in response. As far as Im concerned thats a complete crock of shit.





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Edited by Prisoner#1 (05/15/11 10:09 AM)


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Offlinezzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: OoBYCoO]
    #14454929 - 05/15/11 05:34 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OoBYCoO said:
7/7 = :smbfacepalm:
I wish I could get that time back!  :crankey:  That guy bases the majority of his supposition on hearsay.  "So and so was seen going into McDonald's and eating a beefburger" and "So and so was seen on a bus" "so how could they have been at the bombing."  Who are these people reporting these sightings and what is their credibility???  etc etc.  The few times he gives any sort of reference in his videos is to his own site!  :archiebunker:  As if that was a credible source.



So you cherry pick THOSE bits and miss the FIRST BIGGIE?? The bit where at the SAME FUKIN TIME THIS IS SUPPOSED TO HAVE HAPPENED created by these young muslim males is THE SAME FUKIN TIME that an actual MOCK DRILL EXCERCISE is going on??? Are you a betting man? Anyone here know odds? What are the odds on this? Seriously, even if you dont believe this, have the guts to offer up some odds on the liklihood of such a conincidence like that this. In other words that IS the first MASSIVE clue, yes?
Also compare with 9/11 when there was also a supposed mock drill involved. The only reason you pretend to be asleep about this, like the fawning media, is because you believe the BIG LIE



"The purpose of propaganda is to direct public attention to certain "facts."

Hitler. The Big Lie of propaganda "The whole art consists in doing this so skillfully that everyone will be convinced that the fact is real," writes Adolf Hitler in "Mein Kampf." He describes the principles of effective propaganda: it must repeat those points over and over again until the public believes it. To be effective, propaganda must constantly short-circuit all thought and decision. It must operate on the individual subconsciously. (42) The principles behind "The Big Lie" of propaganda are the same principles of mind control, hypnotic suggestion, mental programming: distraction and repetition. With propaganda, distraction draws attention away from information that is true and directs attention to information that is false. Repetition of the false information imbeds it in your subconscious mind so that your acceptance of its truth becomes a conditioned response. You accept this information as true without thinking whenever it is presented to you again" Hypnosis and "Reefer Madness"

Where yous are at is 'OMG no WAY would these civilized experts in suits DO such a thing as this. Whyyyy the very notion is insanity. Ohhh the idea, the idea, wheres me smellin salts?!'
Or words to that effect, and they know this. They KNOW that you trust them as your authority, they after all have gone to a great deal of trouble to instill this into your mind. I WILL TRUST MY LEADER I WILL TRUST MY LEADER. And of course many of you may have the uncomfortable shiver that it could be true, but you cant imagine being in a place where it IS true, for this would fuck up your sense of worldview
I mean checkout here, also: 7/7: the terror drill, the military explosives, and the Israeli connection
"In the immediate aftermath of the bombings, forensic investigations found traces of military grade high explosives at all four bomb sites. This was widely reported in the media (see sources below). As time went on, the UK government’s (and its mouthpiece, the BBC’s) official narrative changed to ‘homemade explosives’. Reports of high explosives being used are now very difficult to find, and have never been mentioned again." OK connect you mind to 7/7 Ripple Effect, where you are shown the PRE-mock planning for a terrorism attack of the 'good cop, bad cop' routine about how the BBC information would be 'organized' by the government...? yeah? "This important part of the official narrative subsequently changed,[about presence of militray explosives at four sites] and reports of it were largely excised from the media, never to be uttered again." :cuteshit:  smell anything?
So 1/ BIG FUKIN CLUE. A simultaneous 'mock drill' As it happens for real
2nd BIG FUCKIN CLUE: military grade explosives found.
"The presence of military grade high explosives was confirmed by Christophe Chaboud, head of the French Anti-Terrorism Co-ordination Unit, as well as Scotland Yard’s Deputy Assistant Commissioner Brian Paddick. Forensic investigations are a scientific process; the discovery of military-grade explosives, confirmed by experienced professionals, doesn’t just happen by accident."
If you believe the BIG LIE we already have two miracles of coincidence here.
Why did they get return tickets? If you know your gonna die why buy return? Does that make SENSE to you? Along with the rest I have just mentioned?

Quote:

Also, in part 2 (2nd video)  "ch. 4"  ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME???  What idiot in their right mind would make a "fake" terrorist video as part of a "mock drill exercise?????"  Are you that stupid zzripz?  If YOU were a Muslim male in the post 9/11 world would YOU make a "fake" terrorist video as part of a "mock drill exercise?"  What purpose would a video like that serve in a "mock drill exercise?"  Dude this isn't Hollywood, it's real life.  And if I were you, I'd seriously re-evaluate my own gullibility before going around and spewing this nonsense.




That is a very good question, as LONG as in asking it you dont use it to stop you looking."Dude this isn't Hollywood, it's real life." Errrm I am not so sure about that. So let's look then, why would they be so trustworthy to make a video of themselves playing role of terrorists? NOTICE you finsish this question with deliberately forgetting the PREVIOUS BIGGIE CLUES that something aint right with this shit? You are amazed by this but NOT amazed by that unblieveable 'coincidence' of them doing a 'mock drill' at same time as the actual combings which all had military explosives scientifically verfied, but then was censored from the news. THAT you are prepared to not gasp "ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME???" ???
Look at this:

In other words, in looking at this, always keep in mind ALL the clues, dont just cherrypick one thing you cannot dig and then disocunt the rest which are bigger clues. Regarding why these young men would agree to have themselves filmed portraying terrorists. Honest answer is I dont know, but can speculate:
1) VERY highly trained recruitment intelligence operatives would convince them it was for the good of preventing terrorism "    “Hey you, Muslim person. Wanna make a hundred pounds? You could use that kind of dough, with a new kid and all. We’re running a terror drill, and all you gotta do is take this here harmless backpack with a fake bomb inside to work with you tomorrow, just to see if the subway guards catch you or not. Mum’s the word, this is national security and all; you can’t tell anyone!”
    http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/london_exercise_video.html
You can't assume that they were savvy about the 'conspiracy theories' surrounding 9/11 which could have been a warning.

2) money

3) Maybe they would have made a disclaimer they were playing a role

4) As you see from that 'bin Laden video, they have technology now they now have anyone saying anything, and looking like anything.

But crucial point. Dont FORGET the other VERY IMPORTANT clues. these people are very cunning, and dont imagine they think like you.


Edited by zzripz (05/15/11 05:51 AM)


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: GazzBut]
    #14455252 - 05/15/11 08:25 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

How does this support your claim?




It is well documented that the sanctions imposed on Iraq caused a large number of Iraqi deaths. Are you disputing this?





It doesn't matter whether I do or do not: you've claimed various entities are morally responsible for a slew of horrors you allege to be consequences of sanctions and I've clearly challenged this.  So far as I can see, you have not provided any argument for this position at all except to claim various unnamed authorities agree with you and to repeat your claims.

Quote:


You claim I haven't addressed the rest of your post but I would say you ha vent bothered to make the effort to understand my post in the first place!




What is your point here and what is the relevance?  I have said why I feel you've neglected criticisms previously.  I'm not sure what relevance the fact that you'd conclude I've not attempted to understand *something* which you fail to specificy is.  Your bare conclusions are not helpful- address the argument.

Quote:

Quote:

I am asking how you attribute moral responsibility to some other entity (you dont say who, clearly, but I'll imagine its those implementing and complying with UN resolutions) for the problems suffered by the Iraqi people during the imposition of sanctions which specifically allocated exemptions for oil sales for benefit of the civilian population: food, medicine, et cet. 




As I have already said, I attribute moral responsibility to those who imposed the sanctions as they could clearly have chosen to impose different sanctions which did not have such a negative impact on the Iraqi population. You seem to be trying to say that because Saddam did some bad things its ok for the West to do some bad things in response. As far as Im concerned thats a complete crock of shit.




Here you repeat your claim and provide nor argument for it and then make another straw man argument without even attempting to show how its a consequence of my position.  The moral responsiblity of the entities imposing sanctions has nothing to do, in my view, with Saddam's actions- contrary to your allegation.  You have not so much as provided an argument for your position, and even if I had taken the position you criticize, it would be of no consequence to the veracity of your claim.

Do you have any reason at all to blame all those groups for the deaths you attribute to them vis a vis sanctions enforcement?  It seems you cannot support this claim and resort to parroting it.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: johnm214]
    #14455350 - 05/15/11 09:02 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

It doesn't matter whether I do or do not: you've claimed various entities are morally responsible for a slew of horrors you allege to be consequences of sanctions and I've clearly challenged this.  So far as I can see, you have not provided any argument for this position at all except to claim various unnamed authorities agree with you and to repeat your claims.




John this site has a very servicable search function and I suggest you use it. I have been round this merry-go-round more than once and Im not going to trot it all out again. I think I have made my point on this matter and to be honest  I couldnt give a flying fuck about meeting your "challenge" :smile:

Quote:

Here you repeat your claim and provide nor argument for it and then make another straw man argument without even attempting to show how its a consequence of my position.




what position? All you seem to do is engage in tiresome nitpicking of what I should or should not be proving to you etc without really laying on the line exactly what your position is! Come one, give me your subjective feelinngs on the matter Johnny!!


Quote:

Do you have any reason at all to blame all those groups for the deaths you attribute to them vis a vis sanctions enforcement?




Im sorry but are you seriously saying that you wont accept that the sanctions imposed on Iraq caused any deaths unless I prove it to you?

I dont feel any need to prove the blindingly obvious to the willfully obtuse as I have better things to be doing with my time.


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Always Smi2le


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Bin Laden [Re: GazzBut]
    #14455436 - 05/15/11 09:31 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:

Im sorry but are you seriously saying that you wont accept that the sanctions imposed on Iraq caused any deaths unless I prove it to you?

I dont feel any need to prove the blindingly obvious to the willfully obtuse as I have better things to be doing with my time.




You sure have shifted the goal posts.  First it was a million now it's any.  And who was responsible for the sanctions being in place?  Saddam Hussein.  So not only have you failed to back up your claims of massive deaths due to sanctions you also refuse to acknowledge that were it not for the actions of Saddam Hussein there never would have been any sanctions in the first place.  Then there is the matter that the Saddam government was responsible for distributing the products they were allowed to receive but which were stolen by the kleptocracy.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: GazzBut]
    #14455553 - 05/15/11 10:17 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:

Im sorry but are you seriously saying that you wont accept that the sanctions imposed on Iraq caused any deaths unless I prove it to you?





I'm saying it and I'm suggesting that you stop your personal attacks, the mortality rate has been in decline since the 60s up until the Iraq war

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/iraq/death-rate-crude-per-1-000-people-wb-data.html


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14455633 - 05/15/11 10:53 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

even if we accept that graph with 100% certainty how does that actually prove that the sanctions in Iraq did not cause any deaths?


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: GazzBut]
    #14455780 - 05/15/11 11:37 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

even if we accept that graph with 100% certainty how does that actually prove that the sanctions in Iraq did not cause any deaths?




And yet again - for perhaps the twentieth time since you began posting here - you demonstrate your inability to grasp the concept "burden of proof". It is not necessary for Pris (or anyone else) to disprove your assertion that the sanctions caused deaths of Iraqis, it is up to you to support it. You are the one making the assertion. You are therefore the one who needs to provide evidence for it or the reading audience may correctly disregard it.





Phred


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: GazzBut]
    #14455783 - 05/15/11 11:37 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:


Quote:

Here you repeat your claim and provide nor argument for it and then make another straw man argument without even attempting to show how its a consequence of my position.




what position? All you seem to do is engage in tiresome nitpicking of what I should or should not be proving to you etc without really laying on the line exactly what your position is! Come one, give me your subjective feelinngs on the matter Johnny!!





If I had opinions I cared to share I would do so.  I try not to take positions on things I don't know enough about to be confident in.


Quote:

Quote:

Do you have any reason at all to blame all those groups for the deaths you attribute to them vis a vis sanctions enforcement?




Im sorry but are you seriously saying that you wont accept that the sanctions imposed on Iraq caused any deaths unless I prove it to you?




Seperate question- as zappa points out you claimed some large number of people were dead and that those enforcing the sanctions had moral responsibility for it.  This is what I challenged.  You've equivocated numerous times and have continued to make personal attacks whenever challenged.

So far as I can see, you've demonstrated nothing at all that you've claimed and have repeatedly attempted to make dishonest arguments. 

Quote:

I dont feel any need to prove the blindingly obvious to the willfully obtuse as I have better things to be doing with my time.




And how am I willfully obtuse?  The only way you could assert this is to imagine I've taken a position on the merits, which I've not done.  As you've not provided anything whatsoever in support of your claims, there is simply no way any response could be obtuse as there is nothing insupport of what you've said offered thus far.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: johnm214]
    #14456161 - 05/15/11 01:08 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Didnt I mention the Unicef findings for one already in this thread? I know some claim these reports are untrue but I havent seen anything to back this up.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: Phred]
    #14456203 - 05/15/11 01:16 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

nd yet again - for perhaps the twentieth time since you began posting here - you demonstrate your inability to grasp the concept "burden of proof". It is not necessary for Pris (or anyone else) to disprove your assertion that the sanctions caused deaths of Iraqis, it is up to you to support it. You are the one making the assertion. You are therefore the one who needs to provide evidence for it or the reading audience may correctly disregard it.





Interesting how you have changed your tune! Havent we previously disagreed on who was responsible for the deaths caused by sanctions not if any deaths actually occured? Give it long enough and you will probably start believing there were WMDs out there too!!!


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: GazzBut]
    #14456580 - 05/15/11 02:38 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

No changing of tune at my end, Gazz. I have never said sanctions caused Iraqi deaths. That's been your (unsupported) schtick from Day One, not mine. I think you have me confused with someone else.




Phred


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InvisibleBlimeyGrimey
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: GazzBut]
    #14456688 - 05/15/11 02:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
John this site has a very servicable search function and I suggest you use it. I have been round this merry-go-round more than once and Im not going to trot it all out again. I think I have made my point on this matter and to be honest  I couldnt give a flying fuck about meeting your "challenge" :smile:




Quote:

GazzBut said:
Didnt I mention the Unicef findings for one already in this thread? I know some claim these reports are untrue but I havent seen anything to back this up.





Anyone else find this hilarious? :rofl2:

First he claims he doesn't give a crap about supporting his claims then he attempts to call someone else out for the very thing he committed himself.

I smell a :trolldance:.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: Phred]
    #14456752 - 05/15/11 03:01 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


No changing of tune at my end, Gazz. I have never said sanctions caused Iraqi deaths. That's been your (unsupported) schtick from Day One, not mine. I think you have me confused with someone else.





Yeah that must be it...


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: Phred]
    #14457012 - 05/15/11 03:38 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I take it you can at least admit that sanctions were a bad idea and had a negative affect on the Iraqi people? I mean, come on!


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InvisibleBlimeyGrimey
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: GazzBut]
    #14457065 - 05/15/11 03:50 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
I take it you can at least admit that sanctions were a bad idea and had a negative affect on the Iraqi people? I mean, come on!




If Saddam would have spent more money on helping his people instead of building gold lined palaces then his people would have been better off.

Also, if I recall correctly, it was Saddam's fault that sanctions got enforced in the first place. If he would have taken care of his people instead of trying to invade Kuwait then sanctions wouldn't have been imposed.

Place the blame where it should be and not on the reactions to that cause.


--------------------
Message me for free microscopy services on Psilocybe, Panaeolus, and Gymnopilus species.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: GazzBut]
    #14457088 - 05/15/11 03:54 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
I take it you can at least admit that sanctions were a bad idea and had a negative affect on the Iraqi people? I mean, come on!



The sanctions had no impact.  The ruler did.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: GazzBut]
    #14457290 - 05/15/11 04:18 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I take it you can at least admit that sanctions were a bad idea and had a negative affect on the Iraqi people?




As you will remember, I have said repeatedly it was a bad idea to halt at Iraq's borders in early 1991 and instead impose sanctions. By far the best option would have been to roll on into Baghdad and depose Hussein then and there, obviating the rationale for sanctions in the first place. That would have been almost infinitely better than imposing sanctions, and I have said so over and over.

That doesn't change the fact that it was Hussein's actions that resulted in the imposition by the United Nations of sanctions, and that Hussein could have at any time complied with the terms of the conditional surrender agreement signed by Iraq and had the sanctions lifted in a matter of months. So any ill effects visited on the Iraqi populace by the UN sanctions were Hussein's fault from the beginning to the end.





Phred


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Bin Laden [Re: Phred]
    #14457603 - 05/15/11 05:20 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

your all lost


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